I mentioned this sort of in passing to a few folks, but I've never run a swashbuckler before and I've only seen them played a couple of times (with great effectiveness).
Building a tengu swashbuckler, what sort of things should I be mindful of, what sort of pitfalls should I avoid?
Please do not say 'don't be a tengu' or 'why not just go human'. That is not the point of the inquiry.
The ultimate goal is to try and make a viable swashbuckler tengu follower of Shelyn for Reasons.
Thank you very much for your time in advance.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
|
I think the basics are pretty clear from the class: high Dex will serve you well. I would be cautious of investing too heavily in Charisma (especially with lower stats or point buy) and dumping Strength too low, mostly due to encumbrance at l ow levels but also because Strength damage/drain are dangerous, especially considering your poor saves against that sort of thing.
It's my understanding that the swashbuckler does decent damage even without a dex-to-damage feat. Still, it might be worth looking into Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, or Dervish Dance.
-Fencing Grace is nice because you can pick up Weapon Focus (rapier) right away and take it at 3rd.
-Slashing grace could be neat with the tengu's racial weapon options: a falcata might fall under the normal Swordtrained options, or you could trade it out for Exotic Weapon Training and instead use a katana or some such. The downside to this is that you can't actually use Weapon Finesse with any of the neat slashing weapons you have access to until level 3, and you have to spend your first level feat on one of these weapons without even being able to finesse it yet. If you think your first two levels won't be too difficult, or you can start at three with some other chronicle sheets, this might be a good option.
-Dervish Dance is neat, and doesn't have the same issue with needing Weapon Focus. Those necessary 2 ranks in Perform (Dance) are certainly thematically appropriate for a follower of Shelyn, and that's just what I did on a paladin of Shelyn. Just use a rapier (or anything, you've got access to lots of one-handed and light piercing weapons) then switch to a scimitar at 3rd.
-I think you will probably be better off with manufactured weapons, so avoid the claws racial trait. Your natural beak attack is a bite, so it's piercing, so I think it should apply Precise Strike damage, but it's more of a backup/extra thing than something that you invest a lot in. Could be kind of funny, though.
Other notes: crank up your saves with a cloak of resistance when you can. The Constitution penalty is not ideal for a front-line combatant with a bad base Fort save, but try to get it to a 12 at least. Your AC should be pretty good, but those saving throws are a doozy. I think there might be a feat in Ultimate Intrigue which specifically helps a swashbuckler's saves, but I don't know it off the top of my head.
Another option is to play the Cavalier archetype Daring Champion, which trades out the mount for finesse and some other swashbuckler stuff. I think they're fairly comparable, and I don't know if I would pick one over the other for this concept. I think tengus are pretty good choice for swashbucklers, and there's nothing in particular standing in your way in terms of viability. Focus on good Dex, your wide variety of weapon choices, and watch your saves!
You could use the Estoc from Melee Tactics toolbox and not have to spend a feat on slashing grace. Of course then you can't get dex to damage until you can afford a +1 agile version thereof.
I was considering the Wakizashi, as it has a nice crit range(like a rapier) and counts as both a piercing and a slashing weapon (so it would qualify for Swashbuckler Finesse)
I don't have the melee toolbox yet, it's worth checking out, though.
Thank you for the insights so far, still looking forward to hearing more.
1. If you are a Tengu, make the most of Swordtrained. Use a Falcata with Slashing Grace.
2. Swift actions are a b%#&& for Swashbucklers. Corset of Delicate Moves is super useful.
3. Fort and Will saves are terrible. Fix them with traits, Great Fort and/or Iron Will.
4. Damage only requires Slashing Grace and your Precise Strike deed. Everything else, dedicate to defense or utility.
Secret...
1. Doesn't Slashing Grace require Weapon Focus? With only one feat available at first level, would it take time for that to come on-line (ie, 3rd level?)
2. When coin becomes available that will be worth looking into.
3. Noticed that, thinking short-term slightly MAD to cover those bases (and improve durability a little)
4. Trying to see how that works with 1. but interested to see that, as falcata could be very... thematic.
It's my understanding that the swashbuckler does decent damage even without a dex-to-damage feat. Still, it might be worth looking into Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, or Dervish Dance.
Heck, I'd argue that it can do decent even if you were going with str based.
Swashbuckler just seems to dampen the advantages of dex based builds. IT has good reflex, it has bonuses to initiative, it has great AC when you sword and board with a buckler (yes, light armor, but that means you can go with mithral breastplate and still get a scaling bonus to AC).... about the only thing that is solely in dex's favor alone is the number of AoOs... and you have to wait quite a while to get those, since your early feats are devoted to getting dex to damage.
So you could totally go with stats more suited for a str bard. You won't be 'great', but you will still be strong, and you will turn on instantly.
1. Doesn't Slashing Grace require Weapon Focus? With only one feat available at first level, would it take time for that to come on-line (ie, 3rd level?)
Thus we look at the main advantage of the inspired blade archetype- it restricts you to rapiers alone (ie- weapon finesse from class only works with rapier), basically, but gives you free weapon focus in rapiers. Thus, any race could use this to grab fencing grace at first level.
Not a bad archetype- a bit of extra damage early on, and what basically amount to +1 paunche since you can add int with a minimum of 1 to your pool as well (obviously, you still want cha based, since it goes to every other mental stat based feature, like charmed life).
The only negative really is that you don't get paunche from killing- only from critical hits with rapiers. So slightly less paunche regen during the day. Still, decent enough if you compare yourself to a dagger user, since you have a high crit range weapon. The fact that you are restricted to rapiers alone isn't really bad, since people rare go out of their preferred weapon anyway (particularly since slashing grace, dervish dance, and fencing grace each only affect a single type of weapon...)
Now, for a tengu, there is another negative- you are restricted to rapiers, basically, so your sword trained goes to waste. And honestly, I am not seeing too much to trade it in for.
One thing to note, "decent damage" is highly subjective. Some feel that +13 for 1d8+14 at lv7 is "decent damage". Some feel that DPR is the better indicator of "decent damage" than just how much damage they'd do on a hit.
So if you're considering it you need to figure out what is decent for you. And swashbucklers kinda fail compared to other classes. Main reason being they don't have an accuracy booster. You get a +1 at lv5.
So your accuracy is pretty set at level + stat, damage is 1d6/8+stat+level, power attack doesn't scale as nicely for you. So It can be possible to pull off. you just need to be sure that you know what you're getting into and are okay with it.
|
1. Doesn't Slashing Grace require Weapon Focus? With only one feat available at first level, would it take time for that to come on-line (ie, 3rd level?)
Yes - that's one reason that someone might suggest going human.
4. Trying to see how that works with 1. but interested to see that, as falcata could be very... thematic.
Falcatta has the highest overall damage, but as a swashbuckler you should probably stick with a 18-20 weapon. That way you'll regain panache faster, and a lot of your damage isn't multiplied on a crit anyway.
Of note - from a defense perspective, you might consider the Noble Fencer archetype. It gives up Charmed Life for a permanent bonus against mind-affecting spells. (so - probably 3/4 of all will saves)
Second random note: if you dump STR, get the Muscle of the Society trait. (Swashes can get away with it, though it'd be rough until you grab Slashing Grace.)
One thing to note, "decent damage" is highly subjective. Some feel that +13 for 1d8+14 at lv7 is "decent damage". Some feel that DPR is the better indicator of "decent damage" than just how much damage they'd do on a hit.
So if you're considering it you need to figure out what is decent for you. And swashbucklers kinda fail compared to other classes. Main reason being they don't have an accuracy booster. You get a +1 at lv5.
So your accuracy is pretty set at level + stat, damage is 1d6/8+stat+level, power attack doesn't scale as nicely for you. So It can be possible to pull off. you just need to be sure that you know what you're getting into and are okay with it.
...they get a +1 at level 5, and then another at level 9, 14, and 19. It is at the same general rate as weapon training, just with the bonus of getting improved critical for free.
They also have access to the second weapon focus feat, giving a +2 from both feats.
They basically hit as hard as fighters, only without the gloves of dueling. No one really says that fighters are bad at hitting things (just that they are bad anything that can't be solved with hitting things, due to skill points and such).
On power attack- no it doesn't scale well, admittedly, but precise strike seems about balanced to give you the same damage as a 2 handed full martial. A bit of above at times, a bit below at times, maybe higher at the later levels. Generally, about the same as what you would expect from someone getting x1.5 power attack and stat damage. And then they get there damage booster, as well as the specialization feats, so they are decent there too (all while having a hand free for a shield).
I've made a big list of DPR for many characters at various levels, ignoring weapons.
Swashbuckler hangs in around low to average damage. And my list places a generic fighter at around the middle of the pack.
So yeah, your damage isn't bad but you need to pick feats for it and still need power attack.