Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
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While D&D has a large brand recognition within the RPG industry, outside of it, the value of the brand is questionable.What makes you say that? D&D is the oldest RPG still in existence. Virtually all tabletop RPGs -- and even virtual ones -- owe their existence to Gygax and Arneson.
Yes, but an average person on this planet did head about Nokia, Apple or perhaps even World of Warcraft, but not about D&D.
Novels - there are far more valuable IPs/brands out there. Video Games - Warcraft trumps D&D by huge orders of magnitude.Apples to orange comparison here.
I think there is a strong possibility that Pathfinder could ultimately eclipse D&D within the hobby.Are you serious?
If WotC continues it's trend of tripping over their own legs, and Paizo keeps up their trend of not doing just that, it's a matter of time.
Cref: Internet Exploder vs. Firefox.
If WotC continues it's trend of tripping over their own legs, and Paizo keeps up their trend of not doing just that, it's a matter of time.Cref: Internet Exploder vs. Firefox.
Yeah mean where IE is still 3/4 of the entire browser market?
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IMO It is killing the pen&paper RPG industry, specially nowadays, not everyone wants to spend money in minis, and many people dislike pseudo-board games that aren't really board-games.No, the problem is Hasbro/WotC decided to super monetize miniatures and the custom miniature makers like Reaper aren't going to improve it by managing to be more expensive than D&D Miniatures.
Just wait until they turn it COMPLETELY into a CCG like Gamma World - they have already tested it out by adding (broken) powers to D&D miniature packs. They are going to hit it full bore with Gamma World then shift it to D&D. Though they might not because I expect most everyone to completely scoff at it in Gamma World, but I may be wrong from what I've heard and seen.Well, if the future or roleplaying games is so tied to miniature prices then we have a small problem with current P&P games.
About Gamma World, I'm pretty sure that a CCD D&D will sell very well. But it will no longer be a P&P game. The new generations of gamers think that RPG = miniatures and grid maps, because it is what the most famous RPG is becoming, it is really bad for the future of PnP games imho.
OK, twice now 'IYHO' you have stated a dislike for miniatures, that they bring down the hobby, etc... Well, I disagree.
I have been playing RPGs since 1980 (I am 41), miniatures games since 1985 or so (Battlesystem, D&D's very unbalanced, but fun system), into Warhammer for a few years (Picking up a lot of great figs for my RPG's).
There was a time when Citadel produced the best and relatively cheap figs, believe it or not....
Into other RPGs, other Minis games.
One can use them (Minis) or not: I know plenty of folks who just play Pathfinder freeform, without worrying about exactly where everyone is at every moment.
Collectible Minis are OK for some creatures not easily found in other company's stock ( Grick, anyone?), but 95% of the standards (Elves,Orcs,Dwarfs,etc...) are utter crap.
I like using miniatures, I do not see them as a necessary Evil, brought on by some folks intent on increasing sales of randomly-assorted plastic garbage made in China. Quite a lot of us like painting them, modifying and personalizing them and using them.
Miniatures add to the overall feel, just as background music does, or the silly accents that some gamers revert to in game (Guilty here!).
Sketching out a basic village is fine, but (As a miniatures gamer as well), I have buildings, and trees, hedges and castle sections, and Yes...literally thousands of miniatures. I used to be the GM of a small game store chain here in California, and I bought a lot of figs, believe me.
Miniatures (The ones that you paint, not the ones that you buy blind...see aforementioned garbage from China) also DRIVE RPG sales.
I used to sell stuff to plenty of folks who started with Warhammer, would then ask about RPGs and start playing one.I know old guard like myself who love them, young gamers (As young as 17) who play in the same pool who love them: He was a Minis guy at first, actually, now he is playing Pathfinder. Everyone in between.
See, Miniatures aren't that bully that wants to ruin the RPG's day at school...they are that friend that wants to hang out with the RPG. Both work well together, both can be utilized without the other, but they are old chums. D&D evolved from a miniatures game, after all.
If it was good enough for Gary and Dave, I think that it is fine for the hobby overall.
-Uriel
Edit:Spelling
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How can Grimlocks be owned by Wizards, aren't they just rip off's of HG Wells Morlocks?
+1
Also,I miss Githyanki,Beholders and Grimlocks, Dammit...
-Uriel
Well, yes. The same can be said for Mind Flayers, and their obvious HPL origin.
Morlocks aren't the same as Grimlocks,in fine detail (Besides,Paizo has Morlocks, so we have THAT at least ), the Blindness/Blindsense, for instance. It would be easy to 'Pathfinderize' any of those monsters, but it would be far more cool to have official Paizo versions of them.
-Uriel
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Yeah mean where IE is still 3/4 of the entire browser market?
If WotC continues it's trend of tripping over their own legs, and Paizo keeps up their trend of not doing just that, it's a matter of time.Cref: Internet Exploder vs. Firefox.
not sure where you get that number... last study I had seen (which was earlier this month) IE had 50% of the North American market, Firefox had 28%. But in the 16-40 age bracket, Firefox had 60% and IE only 20% . the worldwide numbers are scewed by multiple countries having regulations that any money transaction must use Microsoft Activex, which is only on IE.
How can Grimlocks be owned by Wizards, aren't they just rip off's of HG Wells Morlocks?
+1
Also,I miss Githyanki,Beholders and Grimlocks, Dammit...
-Uriel
Grimlocks are in the d20 SRD. Doesn't that make them open?
Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Mark your calendars folks- I agree with Cartigan heavily on this. Provided he's talking UC. Because UC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>> Bishonen.
Mark your calendars folks- I agree with Cartigan heavily on this. Provided he's talking UC. Because UC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>> Bishonen.Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Gunbuster pwns all.
Search your feelings. You know this to be true.
Mark your calendars folks- I agree with Cartigan heavily on this. Provided he's talking UC. Because UC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>> Bishonen.Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Gunbuster pwns all.
Search your feelings. You know this to be true.
I do indeed have much love for Gunbuster. Did you watch the new movie?
I do indeed have much love for Gunbuster. Did you watch the new movie?Mark your calendars folks- I agree with Cartigan heavily on this. Provided he's talking UC. Because UC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>> Bishonen.Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Gunbuster pwns all.
Search your feelings. You know this to be true.
I've only seen the original, with Noriko.
Gunbuster 2 looked too...."Slayers" for my tastes.If theres a new one beyond that...or a remake of the original, that'd be pretty sweet (fiddles with the kotubukaiya models of Buster machine 1 and 2 on his desk)...
I do indeed have much love for Gunbuster. Did you watch the new movie?Mark your calendars folks- I agree with Cartigan heavily on this. Provided he's talking UC. Because UC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>> Bishonen.Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Gunbuster pwns all.
Search your feelings. You know this to be true.
I've only seen the original, with Noriko.
Gunbuster 2 looked too...."Slayers" for my tastes.
If theres a new one beyond that...or a remake of the original, that'd be pretty sweet (fiddles with the kotubukaiya models of Buster machine 1 and 2 on his desk)...
I strongly suggest you check out the new one. Even if only to be a completionist, it's important to send out the message that Gunbuster is beloved, hopefully we'll get more.
Although IMO, Dangaio>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>Gunbuster.
I do indeed have much love for Gunbuster. Did you watch the new movie?Mark your calendars folks- I agree with Cartigan heavily on this. Provided he's talking UC. Because UC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>> Bishonen.Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Gunbuster pwns all.
Search your feelings. You know this to be true.
I've only seen the original, with Noriko.
Gunbuster 2 looked too...."Slayers" for my tastes.
If theres a new one beyond that...or a remake of the original, that'd be pretty sweet (fiddles with the kotubukaiya models of Buster machine 1 and 2 on his desk)...I strongly suggest you check out the new one. Even if only to be a completionist, it's important to send out the message that Gunbuster is beloved, hopefully we'll get more.
Although IMO, Dangaio>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>Gunbuster.
Ok, I'll give it a shot.
Nah. Gunbuster wins just because it shows you what mecha boot camp is like.
How can Grimlocks be owned by Wizards, aren't they just rip off's of HG Wells Morlocks?
+1
Also,I miss Githyanki,Beholders and Grimlocks, Dammit...
-Uriel
To be fair, it's fairly difficult to rip off something not described at all. Morlocks - subterranean, white ape-like creatures. That's literally it.
I do indeed have much love for Gunbuster. Did you watch the new movie?Mark your calendars folks- I agree with Cartigan heavily on this. Provided he's talking UC. Because UC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>> Bishonen.Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Gunbuster pwns all.
Search your feelings. You know this to be true.
I've only seen the original, with Noriko.
Gunbuster 2 looked too...."Slayers" for my tastes.
If theres a new one beyond that...or a remake of the original, that'd be pretty sweet (fiddles with the kotubukaiya models of Buster machine 1 and 2 on his desk)...I strongly suggest you check out the new one. Even if only to be a completionist, it's important to send out the message that Gunbuster is beloved, hopefully we'll get more.
Although IMO, Dangaio>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>Gunbuster.
Ok, I'll give it a shot.
Nah. Gunbuster wins just because it shows you what mecha boot camp is like.
Goddannar, seen by many to be the spiritual successor to Dangaio, also has mecha boot camp/high school scenes. Simply put, they need as many giant robot pilots as they can get, and its something EVERYONE goes through growing up.
What's bad is it's been so long since I've looked at my 3/x books that my first thought was "Me Grimlock not owned by WotC! Me Grimlock Dionbot! Me owned by Hasbro!"
ROTFL!!
What is it with people deciding to shut a thread down? Take the Battletech stuff to its own thread, already.
What's bad is it's been so long since I've looked at my 3/x books that my first thought was "Me Grimlock not owned by WotC! Me Grimlock Dionbot! Me owned by Hasbro!"
And then you realized that Hasbro owned both Grimlocks.
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What's bad is it's been so long since I've looked at my 3/x books that my first thought was "Me Grimlock not owned by WotC! Me Grimlock Dionbot! Me owned by Hasbro!"And then you realized that Hasbro owned both Grimlocks.
Shouldn't that result in an implosion of the universe ? I mean, one company having the rights to both Grimlocks ? Or maybe they have to secure the rights to both Captains Marvel as well for that ?
*takes notes*
"...so, if someone draws a pro-Pathfinder line in the sand, Alkenstar will stop producing firearms and will start building mecha..."
Got it!
;-)
*booom!* </head_explodes>
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When 4.0 D&D first came out I bought the basic three books. For three months we (our gaming group) gave it a try. I DMed and I played. After three frustrating months we decided to go back to 3.5. Then we found Rise of the Runelords… then beta version of Pathfinder…. and well the rest is well history. I’m not saying 4.0 is a bad game, I’m sure it’s an excellent game. It just wasn’t my (nor my gaming group’s) cup of tea.
Now while I have “voted with my pocket book” and I now spend my ‘gaming” dollars on Paizo’s products and I have left Wotc as a customer, I no longer bear Wotc any ill will.
While it would be fun to imagine the D&D brand being sold, and Paizo picking the brand up. It would “prove” people like me “right” who chose Paizo over Wotc’s 4.0 D&D.
But at the end of the day what does it matter? We have an excellent game, a good community, and I think, Paizo’s staff listens to our thoughts and gripes. Besides this game and 4.0 D&D is about getting together with your friends and having a good time.
So if you are having fun with your friends, what does it matter which game you are playing? I’m sure lots of people play both games.
Anyways that’s just my two cents
Yeah mean where IE is still 3/4 of the entire browser market?
If WotC continues it's trend of tripping over their own legs, and Paizo keeps up their trend of not doing just that, it's a matter of time.Cref: Internet Exploder vs. Firefox.
Actually I.E. has slipped to 45 percent and Firefox is at 29, followed by Chrome, Safari, and Opera in that order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
there's a chart there that won't quite paste nicely here.
The usage share of web browsers.
Source: Median values from world wide summary table.
Internet Explorer (44.53%)
Mozilla Firefox (29.56%; Usage by version number)
Google Chrome (12.34%)
Safari (5.80%)
Opera (2.15%)
Mobile browsers (4.10%)
At any rate, the thing isn't really IE v Firefox. It's really Firefox v Chrome. Firefox has been around that same ranking for years. It's Chrome that's climbing and taking wind out of Firefox and scratching users from IE.
Retcons and BT history
** spoiler omitted **
Dragoons, Kell Hounds, GDL, et al.
** spoiler omitted **...
The issue is with the new retcon the invasion does not play out the same. The TRO 3050 does not make a lick of sense. The greathouses had that info since the 40's just not the infrastructure to use them, that had to be built and it took time. When the invasion hit the new tech was just coming online, not decades in use.
Almost the whole of TRO3050 was field refits, bad crappy field refits at that. And the DC/Com star thing makes less sense now. The C had an advantage fielding unknown mechs...which was retcons to be known and still used mechs.
The retcons change to much backstory to fit neatly. We'll have to disagree on the jihad and darkage as I still say that is garbage and the retcons have changed the setting to a point its an alt timeline and not the same setting my books talk about.
Retcons and BT history
** spoiler omitted **
Dragoons, Kell Hounds, GDL, et al.
** spoiler omitted **...The issue is with the new retcon the invasion does not play out the same. The TRO 3050 does not make a lick of sense. The greathouses had that info since the 40's just not the infrastructure to use them, that had to be built and it took time. When the invasion hit the new tech was just coming online, not decades in use.
Almost the whole of TRO3050 was field refits, bad crappy field refits at that. And the DC/Com star thing makes less sense now. The C had an advantage fielding unknown mechs...which was retcons to be known and still used mechs.
The retcons change to much backstory to fit neatly. We'll have to disagree on the jihad and darkage as I still say that is garbage and the retcons have changed the setting to a point its an alt timeline and not the same setting my books talk about.
Now, now...let's take it to the BT thread.
I have seen the Red Box and Miniatures on sale at both Wal-Mart and Target in my area. The selection of miniatures is horrid and they don't sell any actual books though.
Truthfully I could care less if they stop making D&D stuff. I love Pathfinder and that's all that matters to me :)
A lot of the reason that Paizo is doing well may very well do to the fact that they have a much smaller overhead than WOTC, meaning that they don't heed the same sale numbers to keep themselves in the black. From what I've seen, the sales numbers of Pathfinder are still far from what 3.5 or even AD+D used to be in it's heydey. The days of D+D "being the market" as far as RPG games are defined are long past us and they are not coming back.
Furthermore, I guess the divisions of WotC and Hasbro have to produce a certain amount of revenue to keep the shareholders happy (abriged version). If that quota is not met, something happens - either the division is trimmed to ensure the profit wanted, or it is scrapped and the licences mothballed. Paizo does not need to meet some quota or else, it needs to make enough money to stay a viable enterprise. Not being beholden to some board of directors just looking at the numbers grants some leeway. Being overall a much smaller affair helps as well.
(No, I´m not a fan of companies whose be-all and end-all is shareholder value. It is important, of course, but feeding stock market madness tends not to end well IMO.)
Stefan
Battletech primes...a bunch of berks if you ask me, probably just came by to see a jinkskirt, then they stay a little too long and the bashers get all barmy, best you all be hightailing back to your plane before you get peeled, scragged, or try to garnish the wrong factotum and get yerself good and lost.
"Another Challenger for this thread? I will repeat my bid as the last freebirth did not have to honor to except it, Typical. None the less I Star Captain Johnathan Fletcher of Clan Hells Horses accept your challenge and bid One Trinary of the 201st Mechanized Assault cluster of Gamma Galaxy In defense. What do you bid?"
A lot of the reason that Paizo is doing well may very well do to the fact that they have a much smaller overhead than WOTC, meaning that they don't heed the same sale numbers to keep themselves in the black. From what I've seen, the sales numbers of Pathfinder are still far from what 3.5 or even AD+D used to be in it's heydey. The days of D+D "being the market" as far as RPG games are defined are long past us and they are not coming back.
Perhaps, but I think it has more to do with the content & quality than the size of the organization. I will concede that WotC's size likely dictates a completely different business model -- one that is counter to my RPG-buying tastes.
As for those sales numbers you cite, pleas share. Last time I checked both companies did not publish sales numbers. Paizo b/c it's privately held, WotC b/c its a subsidiary of Hasbro. ;)
"Another Challenger for this thread? I will repeat my bid as the last freebirth did not have to honor to except it, Typical. None the less I Star Captain Johnathan Fletcher of Clan Hells Horses accept your challenge and bid One Trinary of the 201st Mechanized Assault cluster of Gamma Galaxy In defense. What do you bid?"
(I check again to confirm I'm in the thread I started -- yep.)
Howdy Captain!
It's been awhile since I played Battletech/Mechwarrior, amigo, but you might want to get out of the cockpit and do a pre-ops check. From the way you're talking, I think the joystick ended up a bit further back than between your knees.
Y'all have yourself a good day now, y'hear!
(whistling innocently as I walk away) :)
(I check again to confirm I'm in the thread I started -- yep.)
Howdy Captain!
It's been awhile since I played Battletech/Mechwarrior, amigo, but you might want to get out of the cockpit and do a pre-ops check. From the way you're talking, I think the joystick ended up a bit further back than between your knees.
Y'all have yourself a good day now, y'hear!
(whistling innocently as I walk away) :)
"Spoken like a barbarian, I would Challenger you to a trial of grievance, Any stravaga who can not tell a mechwarrior form an elemental is so incompetent, killing you would be a service to your barbaric lords.."
This was an utterly surreal thread development.
Anyhow. TRO 3085 gave me back LAMs. All has been forgiven.
Gods Above how I despise Victor and the superfriends. Everything they touch is ruined and utter crap. They also have the superpower "Everyone I look at acts stupid and dies" Words alone can not express my dislike.Hear, hear.
Hi Victor,
How's little Joshua doing? I hope he's well. I know leukemia is a terrible thing. If something went wrong, I'm sure you'd let me know immediately rather than trying something stupid like replacing him with a body double... right?
- Thomas -
heh, yeah stuff like that does not make friends.
I think Paizo-acquisition of the D&D property makes little fiscal sense. Here's why.
1} The market fragmented with the introduction of 4e. Paizo isn't large enough to suddenly start developing and supporting 4e. The resources aren't there for such a duplication of effort. Terminating 4e and solely relying on PFRPG is basically going to lose the existing D&D customer base, while terminating PFRPG does the same to Paizo's. So where's the path for unification of rules? There isn't one.
2} Paizo is busy developing Golarion. Investing time and effort to get up to speed on Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and the generic pseudo-Greyhawk setting as well as whatever other properties the official D&D line have been supporting these last years... not in Paizo's best interest.
3} Too much time has past and the proof is in the pudding. Paizo doesn't need the D&D name, the Beholder, the Gith, FR, Eberron, or any of the other WotC IP to succeed. Two years ago... that was questionable. Today it's a given. Acquisition of any of that just isn't necessary.
So hey. While I confess I'd adore seeing new Eberron modules that are PFRPG or 3.5e, I just don't see a business model that makes sense for anyone. What's the point?
Just an add to point one - most useful "mainstream" themes in 4E were already explored. There are only so many books that would assure some comercial success. How many can you think of? Conversions of PF books to 4E? It all seems like a niche that would hardly get more space before new editions of the rules were comming.
battletech stuff** spoiler omitted **
Personally, I tuned out when Stackpole stopped writing and they
Victor deserved and ERPPC to the head.
Victor deserved and ERPPC to the head.
Nah, Vic wasn't quite so bad.
Question, though:
What's the deal with Sun-Tzu Liao's "origins" that makes him different than the rest of the quacks in his family?
Someone care to spoilerize this for me?
Gundam > Battletech.
There, I win.
Macross > Gundam.
I win better. ;)
Victor deserved and ERPPC to the head.
He survived a Gauss headshot, so he laughs at your puny ER PPC. Davions take a lot of killing.
Victor deserved and ERPPC to the head.Nah, Vic wasn't quite so bad.
Question, though:
** spoiler omitted **
Silliness :)
Really retcons mostly, I got off the train at 3055, so can't tell ya