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My general biases on what I like to play run like this:
Mundane Ranged Combatant
Arcane Caster (Damage)
Mundane Melee Combatant
Arcane Caster (Save-or-suck/utility)
Divine Caster
Skill Monkey
Now, Divine Caster (especially one with healing...) tends to be welcome in nearly every play group. Unfortunately, the way that they get built tend to make for very little customization of abilities.
People will say "That's an interesting build of a [fighter/barbarian/ranger]" or "Huh, I'd never seen a caster built to do THAT as his primary focus before.". I've never seen anyone say "Well, that's an interesting [cleric/druid]" or "Nice rogue..." before.
And one of my quirks as a player is that I like playing characters that are effective, but somewhat unusual. (See prior build of a Heavy Crossbow specialized Ranger as an unsuccessful attempt). Now, unusual takes third place behind "Does it work?" and "Can I build a personality that goes with this?", but it's still part of the fun.
What niches tend to be over and underrepresented in PFS play for filling tables?
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I've never seen anyone say "Well, that's an interesting [cleric/druid]"
I have a concept that I haven't played yet of a halfling cleric of Erastil with the animal domain who rides an Allosaurus into combat. He uses shield other to "double" the power of his channeling and abuses "share spell" to make the dinosaur a mighty combatant. RAWR!
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I get the "nice rogue" and "nice cleric" comments a lot from the players I play with. He's currently a rogue3/cleric6. He can very strongly go either way, depending on what the table needs, and fills both roles effectively. I certainly would have done him slightly differently, were I to start at level 1, again, but I think he wound up doing what I wanted; being able to fill either niche.
And, yes, both roles are very often in demand. It's pretty rare to not have a barbarian, monk, druid, summoner or ranger at the table. Oddly, a table will either have too many fighters and no wizards/sorcerers or too many wizards/sorcerers and no fighters.
With the APG you can build a lot of very interesting varieties of either class, I think.
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I think the issue is with organized play, you never know who you are going to be adventuring with. This leads to less character development (i.e. unusual/quirky) and a stronger focus on game mechanics and survivability. In an ongoing, home-style campaign, you are playing with the same players each time so you can develop combat/non-combat strategies to deal with your various strengths/weaknesses. Everyone knows what each PC is capable of and how they will act/react in most situations. In organized play, often you just hope the other players are competent enough not to get you killed. This phenomenon is the most apparent at conventions, where things like refusing to share resources, witholding healing, etc. is more common. Not to mention, most players seem to have a specific stereotype in their mind when you tell them you are a [race][class] and they expect you to be able to do certain things. When the cleric at the game reveals that he's an inflicter not a healbot, people tend to roll their eyes. For most players, seems you can boil it down to one idea, your character concept is only cool if it's skills/abilities can directly help me. Sad, but too often true.
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In re playing to expectations: Yeah, I can see that.
Part of the appeal of showing up with the first ranger build you commented on was being able to watch a party go from "Crossbow using ranger. Arrrgh! Dead WEIGHT!" to "HOW MUCH did she hit that thing for with that gigantic crossbow?!?" over the course of an encounter.
This is also why I'm asking about niches and what's usually over or underrepresented.
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I have a Fortune Teller that I have been wanting to test out. The idea being that in combat, she won't be much for damage, but hopefully will give the party a ton of bonuses and be able to do some battlefield manipulation.
Varisian bard focusing on Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledges for skills. Kind of inspired by Miranda(?) from Pathfinder Tales "Winter Wolf". She has Prof: Fortune Teller as one of her skills.
Non-spellcasting wizards and ex-paladins are underrepresented in Pathfinder Society. For good reason.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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IMO, damage output is over-represented, while battlefield control is under-represented.
Agreed. I also see an overabundance of "you can't hit me" fighter types who can't actually hit back, either (or do damage when they do hit).
Under-represented: there hardly ever seems to be anyone at the table who actually *knows* anything. The GM will call for a Knowledge check, and everyone will stare at each other like a bunch of recruits waiting for someone to step forward and take the bullet.
Because of this, Shieldknight's idea would be fun to see. Isn't there a feat that lets you use the Harrow Deck, too? I'm pretty sure I remember being surprised that it was legal.
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IMO, damage output is over-represented, while battlefield control is under-represented.Agreed. I also see an overabundance of "you can't hit me" fighter types who can't actually hit back, either (or do damage when they do hit).
Under-represented: there hardly ever seems to be anyone at the table who actually *knows* anything. The GM will call for a Knowledge check, and everyone will stare at each other like a bunch of recruits waiting for someone to step forward and take the bullet.
Because of this, Shieldknight's idea would be fun to see. Isn't there a feat that lets you use the Harrow Deck, too? I'm pretty sure I remember being surprised that it was legal.
Yes there is. There is also a feat that gives you a +2 bonus to all Knowledge checks as long as they have 5 or less ranks in them. I don't have my character in front of me at the moment. But I could post it on my profile over lunch if anyone is interested. I'd like to hear some feedback. Just remember that I'm not trying to munchkin this character, I'm trying to go after a character concept of the traveling gypsy who just happens to tell fortunes using a harrow deck.
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Based on this thread, I am considering the following build as a melee combatant.
Human fighter
STR 16+2[10] DEX 14[5] CON 12[2] INT 13{3] WIS 12[2] CHA 8[-2]
Traits: Threatening Defender, Tomb Raider [perception]
Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Combat Reflexes
Skills: Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Perception, Survival
Favored class to hit points through level 3, after that the alternate favored class bonus to CMD against specific maneuvers, targeting sunders, disarms and bull rushes. 4th level stat boost will go into INT, because he's sort of a third-assed skill monkey. (A full skill monkey gets 10 skill ranks per level. A half-assed skill monkey gets 6 skill ranks per level.)
2nd level is likely to be Weapon Focus, 3rd level is Improved Trip, 4th level is Weapon Specialization, 5th is Fury's Fall, 6th is Greater Trip. 7th is Wind Stance.
1st level stat block: AC 19, Melee +5/1d10+6
6th level stat block: AC 21, Melee +11/+6 1d10+9, Trip +19/+14 followed by AoOs against prone opponents at +11.
By 6th, assuming no gear, he's attacking at +11/+6 for 1d10+9, and tripping at a CMB of +19/+14, with both trips followed up by an AoO against a prone opponent.
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Greetings Mortals--
I think the answer really depends on your area and your metagame. I think different gaming groups have different stages of evolution depending on a myriad of factors...and what is true on the West Coast might be completely different on the East Coast. What is true for newer groups won't be as true for more experienced groups. And what is real for groups that have players that play at many stores and travel to conventions against a largely isolated group. Heck, metagames can also be derived from differing interpretations of rules.
For example, I recently traveled to play PFS with a largely isolated PFS group...they have about 15 rotating players, but I doubt more than 1 had ever played PFS at a convention or at another store. At this game, there were many clerics...many more than what I see at the 3 gamestores that I sometimes play at. Why the clerics? Oh, they didn't know the easy availability of Wands of CLW (and the ability to spend PA at all!). So, in their reality, clerics were needed at every table because they didn't realize that every class could and should be able to easily heal.
At my gamestores, we laugh at the 'need' for clerics or a dedicated healer at every table. That's for the more inexperienced groups. We aspire towards having a fair amount of personal and shared healing and organize our tables with a focus on people being able to play whatever they want. We are happy to play with dedicated healers, but they are neither over nor under represented.
For me, I love to travel to conventions so I can learn different tricks and see different styles of play. I read these forums for the same reasons...so see differences in play between different players and groups.
At NeonCon, one interesting concept that seemed to be buying metamagicked scrolls or wands. I'm not sure it's legal in PFS (not to derail this topic), but it was interesting to see how different challenges of modules can be when you have availability to scrolls of heightened Daylight. I have never seen that before. Nor buying wands of Magic Missle CL 9.
So, AdAstra, I think it all depends on:
1) How long the group has been playing PFS
2) How much travel, experience, and new ideas get into the group
3) Random rule interpretations accepted by the local community
My guess is that my post didn't help answer the question much...so I'll just say that warforged revenant spellscarred paladins of the sun god are *thankfully* underrepresented in PFS.
-Pain
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Greetings Mortals--
So, AdAstra, I think it all depends on:
1) How long the group has been playing PFS
2) How much travel, experience, and new ideas get into the group
3) Random rule interpretations accepted by the local communityMy guess is that my post didn't help answer the question much...so I'll just say that warforged revenant spellscarred paladins of the sun god are *thankfully* underrepresented in PFS.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no PFS running regularly in Milwaukee at game stores.
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Actually, I've found the "I don't directly contribute in battle, but I provide support" concept to be over-represented in PFS games. YMMV.
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Actually, I've found the "I don't directly contribute in battle, but I provide support" concept to be over-represented in PFS games. YMMV.
I think this is due to the swing. Initially, maybe the first year or so, most of the PC's I saw were uber fighter-types with max AC and large damage output. For most of the last year, there seems to be a hard swing to PC's that are not combat oriented, but are "buffers" or other support types. I saw a lot of tables last summer at GenCon with no melee'ers at all. I'm hoping things this year will swing back to a mix of the two.
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On the halberd fighter posted above, which stat array would be more effective for PFS play?
STR 16+2[10] DEX 14[5] CON 12[2] INT 13{3] WIS 12[2] CHA 8[-2]
+1 INT at 4th, +1 STR at 8th, +1 STR at 12 (and just prior to retirement)
or this one
STR 15+2[7] DEX 14[5] CON 13[3] INT 14{5] WIS 12[2] CHA 8[-2]
+1 STR at 4th, +1 CON at 8th, +1 CON at 12th
The first one is more of a combat machine, the second one gets a 25% increase in skill points (likely going into Survival...).
As it is, the three 'keynote skills' he's got are the two Knowledge skills and Perception, because those Knowledge skills tend to be under-represented, and Perception is always handy. The rest of the skill points will get splashed around to round him out. (First level is Craft (glassblower), for example).
At 4th level, the two options nearly even out, by 8th level the second option is clearly better.
Between levels 1 through 3, how likely is it that I'll prefer the extra skill rank versus the better to-hit odds and higher damage output in PFS play?
Actually, I've found the "I don't directly contribute in battle, but I provide support" concept to be over-represented in PFS games. YMMV.I think this is due to the swing. Initially, maybe the first year or so, most of the PC's I saw were uber fighter-types with max AC and large damage output. For most of the last year, there seems to be a hard swing to PC's that are not combat oriented, but are "buffers" or other support types. I saw a lot of tables last summer at GenCon with no melee'ers at all. I'm hoping things this year will swing back to a mix of the two.
I think it must vary from place to place. When I started playing, there were plenty of not very offensive bards and clerics around, and not so many fighters and barbarians.
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So what I'm seeing here...
It looks like melee beatstick is generally always welcome.
Tanker healing cleric will always be welcome
It looks like pure support-bot runs the risk of being stuck in a party with nothing BUT support-bot, because (sub-rosa context read), most tables would rather have a dedicated specialist.
Ranged fighter is viable, but somewhat uncommon.
Skill monkeys with knowledge skills are in demand, but unpopular.
Rogues are in demand but generally unpopular.
Skill monkeys with knowledge skills are in demand, but unpopular.
Rogues are in demand but generally unpopular.
I can't speak for anyone else, of course. But in my experience, most modules are 90% combat, so ideally I would like characters to be able to contribute in terms of killing or incapacitating enemies independent of whoever else is at the table. Knowledge skills and rogue skills are way down the list.
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I can't speak for anyone else, of course. But in my experience, most modules are 90% combat, so ideally I would like characters to be able to contribute in terms of killing or incapacitating enemies independent of whoever else is at the table. Knowledge skills and rogue skills are way down the list.Skill monkeys with knowledge skills are in demand, but unpopular.
Rogues are in demand but generally unpopular.
In the games I have played and ran, due to the amount of knowledge skills used in the Scenarios for PA, players with those skill are always wanted, Rogues that are willing to get into a fight are always useful, Sadly though very few scenarios use rogues trap abilities.
What I have seen a Lack of are Wizards/Sorcerers oddly and Bards.
I can't speak for anyone else, of course. But in my experience, most modules are 90% combat, so ideally I would like characters to be able to contribute in terms of killing or incapacitating enemies independent of whoever else is at the table. Knowledge skills and rogue skills are way down the list.In the games I have played and ran, due to the amount of knowledge skills used in the Scenarios for PA, players with those skill are always wanted, Rogues that are willing to get into a fight are always useful, Sadly though very few scenarios use rogues trap abilities.
What I have seen a Lack of are Wizards/Sorcerers oddly and Bards.
It's partially a matter of personal preference. If I miss a PA, I shrug and move on; it's not anyone else's responsibility to help me get a PA. But if the party died or failed the mission because nobody can hit or damage the bad guy, that would make me grumble a bit.
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It's partially a matter of personal preference. If I miss a PA, I shrug and move on; it's not anyone else's responsibility to help me get a PA. But if the party died or failed the mission because nobody can hit or damage the bad guy, that would make me grumble a bit.
It sucks, but I get more grumbles when I don't give someone PA, then when their character gets killed.
It's partially a matter of personal preference. If I miss a PA, I shrug and move on; it's not anyone else's responsibility to help me get a PA. But if the party died or failed the mission because nobody can hit or damage the bad guy, that would make me grumble a bit.It sucks, but I get more grumbles when I don't give someone PA, then when their character gets killed.
You're talking about being a GM though, not a player, correct? That's somewhat different.
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You're talking about being a GM though, not a player, correct? That's somewhat different.It's partially a matter of personal preference. If I miss a PA, I shrug and move on; it's not anyone else's responsibility to help me get a PA. But if the party died or failed the mission because nobody can hit or damage the bad guy, that would make me grumble a bit.It sucks, but I get more grumbles when I don't give someone PA, then when their character gets killed.
It is, but still relevant.
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We see a good mix of melee and spellcasting. Maybe leaning toward melee. Not too many clerics though. Hardly any physical ranged. Mostly sorcerers and oracles for spellcasting. I only know of two skill monkeys and I play one of them. Character death is not too common around here. But grumbling because of a missed PA is frequent.
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Yes there is. There is also a feat that gives you a +2 bonus to all Knowledge checks as long as they have 5 or less ranks in them. I don't have my character in front of me at the moment. But I could post it on my profile over lunch if anyone is interested. I'd like to hear some feedback. Just remember that I'm not trying to munchkin this character, I'm trying to go after a character concept of the traveling gypsy who just happens to tell fortunes using a harrow deck.
I looked at your bard but didn't see any feat that dealt with the harrow deck. My wife has been looking to play a harrower since the beginning of Pathfinder, so the name of that feat would surely put me in her good graces.
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I looked at your bard but didn't see any feat that dealt with the harrow deck. My wife has been looking to play a harrower since the beginning of Pathfinder, so the name of that feat would surely put me in her good graces.
Yes there is. There is also a feat that gives you a +2 bonus to all Knowledge checks as long as they have 5 or less ranks in them. I don't have my character in front of me at the moment. But I could post it on my profile over lunch if anyone is interested. I'd like to hear some feedback. Just remember that I'm not trying to munchkin this character, I'm trying to go after a character concept of the traveling gypsy who just happens to tell fortunes using a harrow deck.
Two feats I'm talking about here. One for the harrower and one for knowledge.
Let's start with the harrower. It's called Harrowed, but its not available for Society play. Sorry about that, I had forgotten that. You can find it in the campaign setting book. Maybe they will bring it back with the new Inner Sea book.
Harrowed
Prerequisite: Cha 13
Benefit: Gain a +2 bonus on various skills based on the draw of the Harrow card.
The other feat:
Dilettante
Prerequisite: 2 ranks each in 5 different Knowledge skills
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Knowledge checks if you have 1–5 ranks in that skill. This bonus does not stack with Skill Focus. You can make untrained Knowledge checks with DCs up to 15.
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I looked at your bard but didn't see any feat that dealt with the harrow deck. My wife has been looking to play a harrower since the beginning of Pathfinder, so the name of that feat would surely put me in her good graces.
Fortune Teller
Raised in a land steeped in tradition and superstition you are skilled in communicating with the spirit world.
Prerequisite: Ustalav affinity.
Benefit: Upon taking this feat, choose a focus item for your divination magic—crystal ball, runes, Harrow deck, and so on. Whenever you cast a divination spell, you may use this focus item instead of the spell’s material component, regardless of the cost. If you choose to perform the spell using your focus item and the spell’s normal material component, you cast the spell at +1 caster level.
and
Harrowed
Numerous Harrow readings early in your life seem to have hit the mark precisely, increasing your belief that you are destined for a specific purpose in life; the Harrow deck and your destiny seem intertwined.
Prerequisites: Cha 13.
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Will saves made to resist charm or compulsion effects. Once per day, you may draw a card from a Harrow deck you own. At any one time for the rest of that day, you may apply a +2 bonus on any d20 roll modified by the card’s suit. For example, if you drew a card from the suit of Wisdom, you may apply a +2 bonus on a Will save or a Wisdom-based skill check. If you drew a card from the suit of Dexterity, you could apply this +2 bonus on an Initiative check, a Ref lex save, a Dexterity-based skill check, or a ranged attack roll. You may assign this +2 bonus after you make the roll, but you must do so before you know if the roll was a success or not.
If you don’t have an actual Harrow deck handy to draw from to determine your bonus, you can randomly determine the ability score by simply rolling 1d6 (1 = Strength, 2 = Constitution, 3 = Dexterity, 4 = Intelligence, 5 = Wisdom, 6 = Charisma).
Special: You may only gain this feat at 1st level.
Neither of which are PFS legal currently though.
EDIT: Doh! Ninja'ed!
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It's called Harrowed, but its not available for Society play.
That's very unfortunate. The one character my wife's been dying to play isn't available in the one version of Pathfinder that we actually get to participate in. Hopefully the new campaign guide will fix that (though hopefully the new version won't be a wild mage ripoff).