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18,18,18,18,3,3


Advice

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Silver Crusade

I was engaging in a bit of an intellectual exercise regarding making really good rolls with really bad ones at creation. Then I wondered what race and class would make an amazing character at 20th. I thought it might be a nice thread.

I leaned toward a wizard, possibly elven with the 3s in cha and str.


karkon wrote:

I was engaging in a bit of an intellectual exercise regarding making really good rolls with really bad ones at creation. Then I wondered what race and class would make an amazing character at 20th. I thought it might be a nice thread.

I leaned toward a wizard, possibly elven with the 3s in cha and str.

A wizard with 3 Str would suffer medium encumbrance by weight just by wearing a scholar's outfit and carrying only a spellbook and spell component pouch.


Eh. Druid dumping Intelligence and Charisma. It works with animal forms.

Shadow Lodge

karkon wrote:

I was engaging in a bit of an intellectual exercise regarding making really good rolls with really bad ones at creation. Then I wondered what race and class would make an amazing character at 20th. I thought it might be a nice thread.

I leaned toward a wizard, possibly elven with the 3s in cha and str.

Eh, if they're level 20 they'll have plenty of stat boosting items, manuals, persistant spells, etc that two 3s would not be an issue.


karkon wrote:

I was engaging in a bit of an intellectual exercise regarding making really good rolls with really bad ones at creation. Then I wondered what race and class would make an amazing character at 20th. I thought it might be a nice thread.

I leaned toward a wizard, possibly elven with the 3s in cha and str.

You have to spend many resources in raising Str, anything less than Str 10 allows you to carry the spellbook, clothes, and little more. However you don't need to move too much when you can kill someone in a round and then teleport...

I would go for martial characters than can afford to have Int and Cha 3, specially those that already have few skill ranks, because you are going down to 1 with most classes. Prolly a fighter. And, since your face is hidden behind the Full Plate helm, nobody can see how ugly you are and how stupid you look.
It doesn't change the fact that you clean your backside with your bare hands and then you clean your fingers with the tongue.


catmandrake wrote:
A wizard with 3 Str would suffer medium encumbrance by weight just by wearing a scholar's outfit and carrying only a spellbook and spell component pouch.

But of any class perhaps the wizard is best suited to countering bad stats over 20 levels. Magic items and spells can do much to counter the encumbrance issue.

Of course any str or cha damage will kill them dead even faster than their already minimal HP's would.

Andoran

catmandrake wrote:
karkon wrote:

I was engaging in a bit of an intellectual exercise regarding making really good rolls with really bad ones at creation. Then I wondered what race and class would make an amazing character at 20th. I thought it might be a nice thread.

I leaned toward a wizard, possibly elven with the 3s in cha and str.

A wizard with 3 Str would suffer medium encumbrance by weight just by wearing a scholar's outfit and carrying only a spellbook and spell component pouch.

That's what the fighter is for. May as well get used to carrying the golf bag early, get some practice in before that's all he's really good for...

;-)


catmandrake wrote:
karkon wrote:

I was engaging in a bit of an intellectual exercise regarding making really good rolls with really bad ones at creation. Then I wondered what race and class would make an amazing character at 20th. I thought it might be a nice thread.

I leaned toward a wizard, possibly elven with the 3s in cha and str.

A wizard with 3 Str would suffer medium encumbrance by weight just by wearing a scholar's outfit and carrying only a spellbook and spell component pouch.

He'd be fine with a monk's or peasant's outfit and a spellbook, and could take Eschew Materials as his first level feat. :)

If you played a human, half-elf, or half-orc character, you could use your one stat boost to raise that 3 to a 5. That should allow you at least to have more choice in clothing and carry maybe a backup weapon and a few other lightweight sundries. Everything else you carry on your floating disk. :)

A transmuter could even boost that 5 to a 7 in the morning.

Scarily, it wouldn't be so awful.

But I'd put the other 3 in Wisdom, just for fun. ;)


IkeDoe wrote:

Int and Cha 3...

fighter...

Thog smash!

Little man talk funny! ::whack::

Thog like puppies...

Andoran

Nebulous_Mistress wrote:
IkeDoe wrote:

Int and Cha 3...

fighter...

Thog smash!

Little man talk funny! ::whack::

Thog like puppies...

YES! As a human, he can have 3 skill points per level, to boot.


Lyrax wrote:
Nebulous_Mistress wrote:
IkeDoe wrote:

Int and Cha 3...

fighter...

Thog smash!

Little man talk funny! ::whack::

Thog like puppies...

YES! As a human, he can have 3 skill points per level, to boot.

And be oddly satisfying to play. But only by keeping with the voice.


I'd go for sorcerer or oracle with 18 Str, Dex, Con and Cha and 3 Int, and Wis, basicly a male model in the zoolander style. :)


Gotta go with Thunk the Human Fighter seeing as how thunk is the sound his axe makes when he hits something with it. 3 int basically means that he can only understand 3 word sentences maybe 4 if you are lucky. And then a 3 in Cha just so he doesn't have to talk to people, or so people do the exact opposite of whatever you ask them for.

Or a Half Orc Sorcerer 3 int 3 wis just to kinda have some fun with the barbaric sorcery

Cheliax

Due to ability score drain and damage any character with a 3 in any stat would make the character pretty close to unplayable unless the DM NEVER actually uses attacks that deal anything other than strait hit point damage.

Cheliax

Anything that can dump Int/Cha would "win" with those stats; you don't go below 1 skill point, and Cha is either "really good" or awful... basically it's abilities derive out far less. For that matter, Dwarf would be best, since if you're dropping Cha might as well have a cha of 1. As far as ability drains, Int and Cha are the least drained, so you'd just deal with that. Zen Archers, Clerics (combat focus) would be the most effective... both highly MAD and have Int/Chr dump.

Qadira

Archer. Doesn't really matter if you're a Fighter, Ranger, or Zen Archer, any will work. 3 intelligence and charisma, and get a composite longbow.

I'd personally go with Dwarven Zen Archer, you start with 20 con and 20 wisdom, and fairly early on you get to use wisdom instead of dexterity for rolling to hit with your bow.

Having a charisma score of 1 gives you a severe weakness to anything that does charisma damage, but you'll have AMAZING saves (all good saves, 18 dexterity, 20 con, 20 wisdom), and do incredible damage with a composite longbow.


You could make any number of great 20th level characters with those stats, as by that time you have so many magic items and/or spells that you can easily cover your glaring weaknesses. The problem is that any character with 3s in 2 different attributes is unlikely to survive past the first three levels, at least in any game I'm running orhave played in. Hard to live to be 100 if you can't survive past your teens.


One of the kinds of Oracles that has a revelation to use CHR in place of DEX for AC might be one interesting option. Granted, you have to take Improved Init just to achieve a +0 Init modifier. There isn't much that drains DEX that isn't a poison and most reflex saves deal elemental damage, both of which the Oracle could be well set up to deal with.

Second dump stat? Probably INT.


Thalin wrote:
Anything that can dump Int/Cha would "win" with those stats; you don't go below 1 skill point, and Cha is either "really good" or awful... basically it's abilities derive out far less. For that matter, Dwarf would be best, since if you're dropping Cha might as well have a cha of 1. As far as ability drains, Int and Cha are the least drained, so you'd just deal with that. Zen Archers, Clerics (combat focus) would be the most effective... both highly MAD and have Int/Chr dump.

Isn't there a rule where if the racial mods drop your stat below 3, it defaults to 3?

Cheliax

Really Brian? Given a willingness to let someone else talk, why would the low-int low-chr guy die in your game? Remember he is quite wise, so it's not like he'll stumble off a cliff. 1 of his "1 per level" (or 2 if he'll give up favored class hp, or 3 if he does that and is human) skill points in Diplomacy and people won't even hate him much (+1 Total with a trait to Make diplomacy class and give +1). Attribute drain always sucks, but doesn't kill; and you'd need to create something that drains those often. No it would be an exceedingly powerful, if barely able to grunt, kinda guy.


Malafaxous wrote:
Isn't there a rule where if the racial mods drop your stat below 3, it defaults to 3?

If so I can't find it.

Taldor

I think that was only for intelligence in 3.5, where the PhB suggested under the 'oh no, I rolled a 3!' to make a half-orc barbarian and thus the 3 wouldn't drop by 2 as it normally would.


I am corrected. It simply recommends you talk to your GM before playing anything with a stat less than 3 as a result of racial mods, but does not limit it.
Thunk the Barbarian is a go, but sadly he can't even say his own name. Still, he could hit someone and make wild monkey motions that that was his name.


Would an Int score 3 or lower reduce the number of "humanoid" spells that affect you? Now things like 'Sit', 'stop' and such work, you can train a dog to do that.

Can the party ranger teach you tricks with Handle Animal?


Honestly I think of Int 1 and 2 as firmly being in the Animal creature type. Tool use would be extremely limited and skill selection should be limited to the animal skill list.

As such I'd probably retain the basement of Int 3.

The idea that you could be knocked out with just about any ability drain damage effect would probably limit the viability of this sort of array though.


I actually survived the entirety of Rise of the Runelords as a gnomish wizard with a grand total of 4 str (rolled a 6 and got the -2 racial mod). I stuck with it because other than that I had pretty good rolls (I ended up with 4 str, 10 dex, 15 int, 14 wis, 17 con, 17 cha) It is doable but it really is a pain most of the time. From level one a Mule to carry you and your belongings is a must, until you get a Handy Haversack (Bags of holding are way too heavy) you have to let other PCs carry almost all your gear.

In fights it really can be a huge issue, a single Ray of enfeeblment will take you out of a fight almost definitely even if you make the save and realizing that you are fighting shadows is absolutely terrifying.

It actually can lead to some nice roleplaying and interdepence in the party but unless you have to I wouldn't suggest it.


Thalin wrote:
Really Brian? Given a willingness to let someone else talk, why would the low-int low-chr guy die in your game? Remember he is quite wise, so it's not like he'll stumble off a cliff. 1 of his "1 per level" (or 2 if he'll give up favored class hp, or 3 if he does that and is human) skill points in Diplomacy and people won't even hate him much (+1 Total with a trait to Make diplomacy class and give +1). Attribute drain always sucks, but doesn't kill; and you'd need to create something that drains those often. No it would be an exceedingly powerful, if barely able to grunt, kinda guy.

I insist people roleplay the stats they take.

Intelligence of 3 is at the absolute bottom end of the human spectrum, just a couple of short steps above animal intelligence, and probably below the intelligence of most primates. This is someone who is profoundly mentally disabled to such an extent that it is disturbing to me to even imagine someone putting a weapon in his hands and teaching him to fight. Think Blaster without Master. This guy probably couldn't even dress himself without assistance. Whether he would be capable of anything beyond rudimentary human speech is debatable, and he certainly wouldn't be capable of making any contribution at all to party plans, nor could he understand them or carry them out without someone guiding his every move. He could not effect any tactics more sophisticated than hit it til it stops moving.

As for Charisma, this character is as naturally loathsome as any human being can be. His mere presence would be profoundly unsettling to everyone around him. A score of 3 indicates he doesn't just keep his mouth shut and let his betters handle things. He's actively obnoxious. Sure he can dump every point he has into Diplomacy in hopes of making people only dislike him rather than hate him, but at the cost of being able to do nothing else at all.

Such a character would be a crippling liability to a party in my campaigns. He'd die fast. I'd feel bad about it, though, kind of like beating up a profoundly mentally-disabled, socially-maladjusted circus freak.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Monk, with 3 in Cha and Int. If you have the stats for MAD, you owe it to the world to play a MAD class.


Brian Bachman wrote:

Intelligence of 3 is at the absolute bottom end of the human spectrum, just a couple of short steps above animal intelligence, and probably below the intelligence of most primates. This is someone who is profoundly mentally disabled to such an extent that it is disturbing to me to even imagine someone putting a weapon in his hands and teaching him to fight. Think Blaster without Master. This guy probably couldn't even dress himself without assistance. Whether he would be capable of anything beyond rudimentary human speech is debatable, and he certainly wouldn't be capable of making any contribution at all to party plans, nor could he understand them or carry them out without someone guiding his every move. He could not effect any tactics more sophisticated than hit it til it stops moving.

I don't think that's entirely fair, when you factor in that (by the parameters of this exercise) he also has 18 WIS.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Brian Bachman wrote:

Intelligence of 3 is at the absolute bottom end of the human spectrum, just a couple of short steps above animal intelligence, and probably below the intelligence of most primates. This is someone who is profoundly mentally disabled to such an extent that it is disturbing to me to even imagine someone putting a weapon in his hands and teaching him to fight. Think Blaster without Master. This guy probably couldn't even dress himself without assistance. Whether he would be capable of anything beyond rudimentary human speech is debatable, and he certainly wouldn't be capable of making any contribution at all to party plans, nor could he understand them or carry them out without someone guiding his every move. He could not effect any tactics more sophisticated than hit it til it stops moving.

I don't think that's entirely fair, when you factor in that (by the parameters of this exercise) he also has 18 WIS.

Thie idea of a human being (or humanoid) with a 3 Int and an 18 Wis is pretty much completely preposterous, but we'll roll with it because, hey, this is a fantasy game.

From the SRD: Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.

The definitions are a bit fuzzy and interpretations could lead to considerable overlap in how they are applied, but I try to keep them distinct (or why have two different scores at all?). The key to me is anything that requires learning and reasoning is pretty much out of reach of the 3 Int character. His Wisdom allows him to respond appropriately by instinct to a lot of situations, but it doesn't give him any extra reasoning power. He's purely reactive, incapable of virtually any forethought or preparation. So I stand by my earlier post.

Cheliax

If a player with 3 in ANY stat decided to play in my game I would be sure they knew what they were getting themselves into likely with a proper write up of drawbacks and dangers. Below are my two biggest ones.

1) The right kind of stat damage/drain will instantly disable you if I (The DM) roll more than a 1 on an number of attacks against you. By playing this you are forfeiting any right to complain if and when any ability score deductions come your way, they are NOT uncommon, and i would purposely have to play exclusively to your strengths to make it work, and that is not fair for me, much less the other players.

2) Depending on the stat it is placed in you will unable to do anything short of just BARELY keeping yourself functioning in that relevant fashion. For example, a character with 3 intelligence would not have object permanence and would be living breathing victim of a constant game of peekaboo, or a character with 3 strength would only BARELY be able to walk, speak, or get dressed without fully exhausting yourself.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Brian Bachman wrote:


I insist people roleplay the stats they take.

I don't.

I treat stats as relative measurements. If you have a 20 Int you're a smart guy. If you have a 18 Wis as well you don't always make the wisest choices. If you have a 6 Cha as well you don't communicate well.

This explains why 30 Int creatures don't rule the world and 6 Int creatures are able to understand language.

Cheliax

TriOmegaZero wrote:
This explains why 30 Int creatures don't rule the world and 6 Int creatures are able to understand language.

Who says they dont?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Status Quo.

Cheliax

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Status Quo.

Maybe since epic rules don't exist for Golarion yet our characters have simply been unable to uncover those deep dark secrets behind all of our cities, nations, and planes of existence?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

And maybe the Flying Spaghetti Monster is really the One True God, we just aren't high enough level to find proof yet?

Cheliax

May his majestic noodlely appendage grant eternal majesty supreme!

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Ramen.


Brian Bachman wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Brian Bachman wrote:

Intelligence of 3 is at the absolute bottom end of the human spectrum, just a couple of short steps above animal intelligence, and probably below the intelligence of most primates. This is someone who is profoundly mentally disabled to such an extent that it is disturbing to me to even imagine someone putting a weapon in his hands and teaching him to fight. Think Blaster without Master. This guy probably couldn't even dress himself without assistance. Whether he would be capable of anything beyond rudimentary human speech is debatable, and he certainly wouldn't be capable of making any contribution at all to party plans, nor could he understand them or carry them out without someone guiding his every move. He could not effect any tactics more sophisticated than hit it til it stops moving.

I don't think that's entirely fair, when you factor in that (by the parameters of this exercise) he also has 18 WIS.

Thie idea of a human being (or humanoid) with a 3 Int and an 18 Wis is pretty much completely preposterous, but we'll roll with it because, hey, this is a fantasy game.

From the SRD: Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.

The definitions are a bit fuzzy and interpretations could lead to considerable overlap in how they are applied, but I try to keep them distinct (or why have two different scores at all?). The key to me is anything that requires learning and reasoning is pretty much out of reach of the 3 Int character. His Wisdom allows him to respond appropriately by instinct to a lot of situations, but it doesn't give him any extra reasoning power. He's purely reactive, incapable of virtually any forethought or preparation. So I stand by my earlier post.

Teacher: Now you swing your sword to block your enemy's attacks... [ramble]

Thog: ::picks up sword by the point:: OW!! Sword pointy! Sword bad! Sword hurt Thog!
Teacher: ::sighs mightily:: No, Thog, the pointy end goes in the other guy.
Thog: ::picks up sword in the middle of the blade and gestures point at practice dummy, sword slices into hand:: Owwwwwww..... Sword sharp! ::throws sword down:: Sword too hard! Sword hurt Thog! Thog use club!


Nebulous_Mistress wrote:

Teacher: Now you swing your sword to block your enemy's attacks... [ramble]

Thog: ::picks up sword by the point:: OW!! Sword pointy! Sword bad! Sword hurt Thog!
Teacher: ::sighs mightily:: No, Thog, the pointy end goes in the other guy.
Thog: ::picks up sword in the middle of the blade and gestures point at practice dummy, sword slices into hand:: Owwwwwww..... Sword sharp! ::throws sword down:: Sword too hard! Sword hurt Thog! Thog use club!

I think Thog is destined for a quarter staff that way it doesn't matter which end he hits things with and as it's 2 handed at least his strength is useful :D


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Brian Bachman wrote:


I insist people roleplay the stats they take.

I don't.

I treat stats as relative measurements. If you have a 20 Int you're a smart guy. If you have a 18 Wis as well you don't always make the wisest choices. If you have a 6 Cha as well you don't communicate well.

This explains why 30 Int creatures don't rule the world and 6 Int creatures are able to understand language.

Not really sure I'm following your distinction, TOZ. Probably related more to my own rather pedestrian Int score than any failure to communicate on your part. :) Can you expand a bit on what you mean?

As for ruling the world, Int probaby has less to do with it in fantasy worlds, just as in our world, than charisma and ambition.

And there is a big difference between a 6 Int, which is pretty dumb (bottom 5 percent of a randomly generated human population using classic 3d6 to generate scores, I believe, but I welcome someone with better math fu than I checking my calculations), but probably still very functional and a 3 Int which is, as I stated above probably profoundly mentally handicapped (bottom one half of one percent of human population).

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Well yeah, that's the reason I don't allow someone to generate a charcter with less than a 6 in a score for the most part. :) I'm not sure how to explain it better myself. Damn low Wisdom.


Nebulous_Mistress wrote:

Teacher: Now you swing your sword to block your enemy's attacks... [ramble]

Thog: ::picks up sword by the point:: OW!! Sword...

Thanks for the astute illustration of my point, NM.


Brian Bachman wrote:
Nebulous_Mistress wrote:

Teacher: Now you swing your sword to block your enemy's attacks... [ramble]

Thog: ::picks up sword by the point:: OW!! Sword...
Thanks for the astute illustration of my point, NM.

But 18 WIS Thog would be way too savvy to pick up the sword by the pointy end. :)

I mean, there's complicated tactics, and then there's let's not grab sharp things. My cats can even figure out #2.


Should I be slapped for thinking this would make a hilarious Summoner. Again dumping Int and maybe Str. The difference between Aaah (for appear) and Thunk is that Aaah can summon a functioning brain.

Any class that has a "pet" and does not use Int for a stat could try that.


Bertious wrote:
Nebulous_Mistress wrote:

Teacher: Now you swing your sword to block your enemy's attacks... [ramble]

Thog: ::picks up sword by the point:: OW!! Sword pointy! Sword bad! Sword hurt Thog!
Teacher: ::sighs mightily:: No, Thog, the pointy end goes in the other guy.
Thog: ::picks up sword in the middle of the blade and gestures point at practice dummy, sword slices into hand:: Owwwwwww..... Sword sharp! ::throws sword down:: Sword too hard! Sword hurt Thog! Thog use club!
I think Thog is destined for a quarter staff that way it doesn't matter which end he hits things with and as it's 2 handed at least his strength is useful :D

Though once he gets one end of it enchanted (but not the other, to save money!) I'd make him flip a coin to see if he hits people with the right end. Might have to get it flaming, then at least he'd know to hit with the on-fire end.

Thog: Thog have magic fire-stick that never burn! Thog learn which end to grab now. Fire-stick hard to learn but Thog learn. ::grabs:: OW! Thog forget.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Brian Bachman wrote:
Nebulous_Mistress wrote:

Teacher: Now you swing your sword to block your enemy's attacks... [ramble]

Thog: ::picks up sword by the point:: OW!! Sword...
Thanks for the astute illustration of my point, NM.

But 18 WIS Thog would be way too savvy to pick up the sword by the pointy end. :)

I mean, there's complicated tactics, and then there's let's not grab sharp things. My cats can even figure out #2.

I actually agree, but her story made me laugh. Thog would be more likely to pick it up by the hilt but have a hard time remembering not to hit with the flat of the blade, turning the sword into a poorly balanced club. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Or you can "cheat" - and put the 3s in stats that you can eliminate with a suitable template. 3 Con? Sure! And 10 levels in Green Star Adept.

I'm not sure what options are in Pathfinder specifically that could be pursued like this; but it could be worth checking out.

All that said, I'd rather play a character with 16 16 16 16 8 8


I tend to stay away from a character that can be completely destroyed by a level 3 wizard. 3 str? ray of enfeeblement with no save. Your helpless now and dead. 3 in mental stat? touch of idiocy. same effect.

Qadira

I love the fighter suggestions here. I have to say though people forget he would also have an 18 wisdom. I would go for the strong ugly silent type. and then when 'it hits the fan he screams "hulk smash!" and kills whatever happens to be in his way. I also say Barbarian instead of fighter for the same reason.

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