Pathfinder E6


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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J.S. wrote:

That's a terrible reason to go PF E6 rather than Iron Heroes, or that sort of logic leads to a lot of crappy games. Rules aren't generic. Even generic rules aren't generic, but lead to different sorts of 'genericism.'

Nevertheless, I agree with your conclusion largely because I disagree with your logic. Yes, Iron Heroes is a gritty take on D20, as is a E6 patch for Pathfinder. They aren't the same, and I can think of a lot of reasons why I'd prefer one to the other in a sort of game.

Iron Heroes is a great system. But it doesn't have the same goals as E6. I like both approaches, depending on exactly what sort of feel I'm looking for. Iron Heroes feels a bit more Anime or Conan than "gritty". E6 is for people who really like the low level D&D/Pathfinder game, before high level magic starts to take over.

I just realized that E6 would probably be really improved by adopting the Book of Experimental Might's spell level system. It allows spells to be spread a little more evenly across the level spread.

To answer someone's question above: I would buy a digest Pathfinder E6 book that compiled the rules and extra feats in a single spot. I might buy an E6 campaign setting book, but I would have to know more about the world before committing.


Hmm,

if some 3rdPP would like to publish something along this line (e.g. a book of rules/feats/adjustments that picks up where PFRPG stops at level 6) I would probably pick it up.

But I am still unsure if any number of people would do so too.


Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
That's what I thought as well but we made a Fighter with E6 with 10 extra feats and it can coinflip a CR 10 by itself

Isn't that the point? Isn't a CR encounter of +2 supposed to represent a 50% chance of victory for a single party member? Aka, it consumes 100% of the resources of the character to defeat, and victory is questionable?


Mok wrote:
Dreaming Warforged wrote:
But the eternal struggle between 6 and 8... Better to add or to remove? At first, I really looked at BAB progression, where 8 makes more sense, as 1/2, 3/4, 1/1 really are the end points. Then I looked at spells, and while I agree some are trouble some, the list is small and can be easily announced from the start (again, it changes the world too).

You fix this by running E6 but just have some epic feats that add just a smidge more to BAB, and feats that add some of the higher level, but not campaign breaking spells.

The way I was working things into my E6 game is that the world once knew the higher level spells, but endless wars had bled most of that knowledge and power out of the world.

You could technically still access some of those potent spells, such as teleport, but they were linked to locations now. They became "campaign spells" rather than "player spells."

Very good point Mok. I'm inclining more towards 6 all of a sudden. Yet, all those powers available for specialist wizards and clerics through domains at level 8 (or before which complicates things somewhat) are still weighing in favor of "E8 minus certain spells".

I also have a question: Can an AP be done within such a system (E6, E8 or E10 for that matter)?


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I thought I'd be a peach and put my take on the E6 feats on this thread. Enjoy.

Skills

Expansive Skill

Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks. You may not use these points to raise a skill beyond its maximum.

Special: You may select this feat multiple times.

Skill beyond Your Years

Prerequisite: Level 6
Pick a skill. You may have up to 8 ranks in that skill.

Removing Status Effects

Restoration

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Wisdom 18, Healing 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use Restoration, as the spell (paying the material component), with a casting time of 1 hour.

Stone to Flesh

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Intelligence 18, Craft (Alchemy) 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use stone to flesh, as the spell, with an expensive and secret magical ingredient with a market value of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day.

Natural Fighter

Defense Skill

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th, Offensive Skill
Special: Gain a +1 skill bonus to AC.
This feat can only be taken once.

Martial Mastery

Prerequisites: Character Level 6
Benefit: Characters with a BAB of +4 or +5 may consider it +6 or +7, respectively, for the purpose of taking and using feats. Characters with a BAB of +6 may consider it to be +9 for the purpose of taking and using feats.

Offensive Skill

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Special: Gain a +1 skill bonus to Strike and Damage.
This feat can only be taken once.

For Casters

Expanded Knowledge

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spell casting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list. This feat can be taken once per spell level.

Expanded Casting

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast. This can be taken once per spell level.

Item Creation

Wondrous Rings

Prerequisites: 6th level, Craft Wondrous Item
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites. You must still meet caster level requirements for any ring you create.

Ability Score Feats

Ability Training

You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to that Ability Score whenever you are making an Ability Check. This bonus does not count when making a skill check or for any other use of that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Advancement

Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does not stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Capstone Feats

Barbarian

Barbaric Resilience

Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You gain DR 2/--

Focus Your Rage

Prerequisite: Barbarian 2
Benefit: You may select an additional Rage Power.

Great Rage

Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: Select one Rage Power as if you were level 8.
Special: This feat may be taken twice.

Bard

Bardic Inspiration

Prerequisite: Bard level 6
The bonus granted by your inspire courage and inspire competence abilities increase to +3.

Dirge of Doom

Prerequisite: Bard 6
Benefit: You gain access to the Bard Song ability Dirge of Doom.

Experienced Performer

Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action.

Cleric

Ascendance

Prerequisite: Cleric 6
Benefit: You gain a single domain power as if you were level 8, selected from the domains you already possess.

Extra Domain Power

Prerequisites: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religon)
Benefit: You gain the domain power of one additional domain associated with your deity. You may only take this feat once.

Extra Domain Access

Prerequisites: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Extra Domain Power, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religion)
Benefit: You gain access to the domain spell list of one additional domain associated with your deity. This domain must be the same one as that chosen for the Extra Domain Power feat. You may only take this feat once.

Druid

Mighty Wild Shape

Prerequisite: Druid level 6
A druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid’s wild shape functions as plant shape I.

Fighter

Master Combatant

Mastery of your craft has increased the effectiveness of your fighter special abilities.

Prerequisite: Fighter 6
Benefit: You acquire Armor Training 2, and your Bravery increases to +3. You may also choose a second group of weapons with which to gain the Weapon Training Bonus, however, your bonus does not increase.

Fighting Style

Prerequisite: BAB +8
Benefit: The fighter develops a new fighting style. Select two feats you already possess which are mutually exclusive - they may be performed together. For example, Vital Strike and Cleave or Disarming Strike and Repositioning Strike are good choices.

Monk

Monk Training

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: The monk gains +1 to his AC and deals 1d10 damage with his unarmed strikes.

Self Mastery

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered Lawful for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Enlightened Body

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your gain the Wholeness of Body Monk ability.

Paladin

Divine Aura

Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: The paladin gains the Aura of Resolve ability.

Holy Strikes

Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered Good and Magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Ranger

Extra Favored Terrain

Prerequisite: Ranger 3
Benefit: You may select a second Favored Terrain, but your terrain bonuses do not improve.

Step of the Wild Lands

Prerequisite: Ranger 6, Survival 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker and Camouflage class abilities.

Rogue

Roguish Ability

Prerequisite: Rogue 6
Benefit: You learn one rogue advanced talent.
Special: This feat may be taken twice.

Rogue Talent

Prerequisite: Rogue 2
Benefit: You learn one Rogue Talent of your choice.

Sorcerer

Awakened Bloodline

Prerequisite: Sorcerer 6
Benefit: You gain your bloodline's bonus 3rd level spell, and its 9th level granted bloodline power.

Wizard

School Specialist

Prerequisite: Wizard 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the eighth level specialist power from your chosen school. If you have chosen the Abjuration School, you instead increase your Resistance ability from 5 to 10.

Martial Arts Mastery

Pounce

Prerequisite: BAB +8
Benefit: The fighter may make a full attack after making a charge. Only the first attack benefits from the charge.

Honorable Charge

Prerequisite: BAB +8, Vital Strike
Benefit: Increase the multiplier of vital strike by 1.

Blind Master

Prerequisite: BAB +8, Blind Fighting, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will
Benefit: The fighter gains blind sight 20’. If the fighter is using his normal vision, he is still subject to penalties caused by sudden blinding, needing a full found to adjust. Deafening attacks will make the use of this power impossible.

Mantra

Prerequisite: Character level 6, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Skill Focus – Knowledge Religion
Benefit: The character gains an SR of 10 + Wisdom Modifier + one half Character level vs. compulsion effects.


Dreaming Warforged wrote:

Very good point Mok. I'm inclining more towards 6 all of a sudden. Yet, all those powers available for specialist wizards and clerics through domains at level 8 (or before which complicates things somewhat) are still weighing in favor of "E8 minus certain spells".

I also have a question: Can an AP be done within such a system (E6, E8 or E10 for that matter)?

I just finished an E8 campaign, and it worked out pretty good, but a significant problem I noticed:

The caster level hard cap on magic items doesn't work anymore. Caster Level 8 magic items include the stat increase items, and there is no rule that I can find that makes it so that a +6 stat headband/belt cannot be made. There are a few other smaller issues it opens, but the power increase from these magic items can be huge. You will find yourself trying to add house rules that cover up these problems, and that could be a huge time waster, and the PC's might feel cheated. And as you give out more and more wealth, the PC's will have money to blow, so getting these +6 stat items are not going to be a problem.

Another thing I did was allow for special abilities to be placed on magic weapons without the +1 first. This opens up another small can of worms, but this was a house rule that nobody of course has to use, and I personally don't recommend without more tweaking.

As for level 7-9 class abilities, you can make them into capstone feats. That way they can still get the capstone ability, but they have to start spending their extra feats to get it.

When I started to think about using adventure paths, the group was already at least 4th level, so that did not work out. I started using modules with tweaks. I imagine you could use an adventure path, but look ahead when you get to level 8 and higher, your either going to have to significantly weaken everything as they keep going or branch off from the AP. E6 seems like it would work best with a more sand box like campaign.


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cranewings wrote:

I thought I'd be a peach and put my take on the E6 feats on this thread. Enjoy.

Cranewings E6 feats:

Skills

Expansive Skill

Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks. You may not use these points to raise a skill beyond its maximum.

Special: You may select this feat multiple times.

Skill beyond Your Years

Prerequisite: Level 6
Pick a skill. You may have up to 8 ranks in that skill.

Removing Status Effects

Restoration

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Wisdom 18, Healing 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use Restoration, as the spell (paying the material component), with a casting time of 1 hour.

Stone to Flesh

Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Intelligence 18, Craft (Alchemy) 6 Ranks
Benefit: You can use stone to flesh, as the spell, with an expensive and secret magical ingredient with a market value of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day.

Natural Fighter

Defense Skill

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th, Offensive Skill
Special: Gain a +1 skill bonus to AC.
This feat can only be taken once.

Martial Mastery

Prerequisites: Character Level 6
Benefit: Characters with a BAB of +4 or +5 may consider it +6 or +7, respectively, for the purpose of taking and using feats. Characters with a BAB of +6 may consider it to be +9 for the purpose of taking and using feats.

Offensive Skill

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Special: Gain a +1 skill bonus to Strike and Damage.
This feat can only be taken once.

For Casters

Expanded Knowledge

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spell casting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list. This feat can be taken once per spell level.

Expanded Casting

Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast. This can be taken once per spell level.

Item Creation

Wondrous Rings

Prerequisites: 6th level, Craft Wondrous Item
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites. You must still meet caster level requirements for any ring you create.

Ability Score Feats

Ability Training

You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to that Ability Score whenever you are making an Ability Check. This bonus does not count when making a skill check or for any other use of that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Advancement

Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does not stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Capstone Feats

Barbarian

Barbaric Resilience

Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You gain DR 2/--

Focus Your Rage

Prerequisite: Barbarian 2
Benefit: You may select an additional Rage Power.

Great Rage

Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: Select one Rage Power as if you were level 8.
Special: This feat may be taken twice.

Bard

Bardic Inspiration

Prerequisite: Bard level 6
The bonus granted by your inspire courage and inspire competence abilities increase to +3.

Dirge of Doom

Prerequisite: Bard 6
Benefit: You gain access to the Bard Song ability Dirge of Doom.

Experienced Performer

Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action.

Cleric

Ascendance

Prerequisite: Cleric 6
Benefit: You gain a single domain power as if you were level 8, selected from the domains you already possess.

Extra Domain Power

Prerequisites: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religon)
Benefit: You gain the domain power of one additional domain associated with your deity. You may only take this feat once.

Extra Domain Access

Prerequisites: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Extra Domain Power, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religion)
Benefit: You gain access to the domain spell list of one additional domain associated with your deity. This domain must be the same one as that chosen for the Extra Domain Power feat. You may only take this feat once.

Druid

Mighty Wild Shape

Prerequisite: Druid level 6
A druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid’s wild shape functions as plant shape I.

Fighter

Master Combatant

Mastery of your craft has increased the effectiveness of your fighter special abilities.

Prerequisite: Fighter 6
Benefit: You acquire Armor Training 2, and your Bravery increases to +3. You may also choose a second group of weapons with which to gain the Weapon Training Bonus, however, your bonus does not increase.

Fighting Style

Prerequisite: BAB +8
Benefit: The fighter develops a new fighting style. Select two feats you already possess which are mutually exclusive - they may be performed together. For example, Vital Strike and Cleave or Disarming Strike and Repositioning Strike are good choices.

Monk

Monk Training

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: The monk gains +1 to his AC and deals 1d10 damage with his unarmed strikes.

Self Mastery

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered Lawful for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Enlightened Body

Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your gain the Wholeness of Body Monk ability.

Paladin

Divine Aura

Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: The paladin gains the Aura of Resolve ability.

Holy Strikes

Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered Good and Magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Ranger

Extra Favored Terrain

Prerequisite: Ranger 3
Benefit: You may select a second Favored Terrain, but your terrain bonuses do not improve.

Step of the Wild Lands

Prerequisite: Ranger 6, Survival 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker and Camouflage class abilities.

Rogue

Roguish Ability

Prerequisite: Rogue 6
Benefit: You learn one rogue advanced talent.
Special: This feat may be taken twice.

Rogue Talent

Prerequisite: Rogue 2
Benefit: You learn one Rogue Talent of your choice.

Sorcerer

Awakened Bloodline

Prerequisite: Sorcerer 6
Benefit: You gain your bloodline's bonus 3rd level spell, and its 9th level granted bloodline power.

Wizard

School Specialist

Prerequisite: Wizard 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the eighth level specialist power from your chosen school. If you have chosen the Abjuration School, you instead increase your Resistance ability from 5 to 10.

Martial Arts Mastery

Pounce

Prerequisite: BAB +8
Benefit: The fighter may make a full attack after making a charge. Only the first attack benefits from the charge.

Honorable Charge

Prerequisite: BAB +8, Vital Strike
Benefit: Increase the multiplier of vital strike by 1.

Blind Master

Prerequisite: BAB +8, Blind Fighting, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will
Benefit: The fighter gains blind sight 20’. If the fighter is using his normal vision, he is still subject to penalties caused by sudden blinding, needing a full found to adjust. Deafening attacks will make the use of this power impossible.

Mantra

Prerequisite: Character level 6, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Skill Focus – Knowledge Religion
Benefit: The character gains an SR of 10 + Wisdom Modifier + one half Character level vs. compulsion effects.


cranewings, I appreciate these feats. But since you put them in every E6 thread, in the future, could you spoiler em, since the list is long? Especially, in threads like this where they are slightly off topic? I do like the list, and will use many of em myself.

Greg

Sovereign Court

jlord wrote:
Another thing I did was allow for special abilities to be placed on magic weapons without the +1 first. This opens up another small can of worms, but this was a house rule that nobody of course has to use, and I personally don't recommend without more tweaking.

Can you expand on this? I was thinking of doing this (+1 swords are so boring) and it would be great to hear what the pitfalls of this approach are.


Greg Wasson wrote:
cranewings wrote:

I thought I'd be a peach and put my take on the E6 feats on this thread. Enjoy.

** spoiler omitted **
...

Certainly (;


Mok wrote:
Can you expand on this? I was thinking of doing this (+1 swords are so boring) and it would be great to hear what the pitfalls of this approach are.

Sure, It's not that complicated...

It works exactly the same way, except that instead of making the weapon +1 1st, you can just go strait into special abilities.

Now 1st problem is, is that +1 to the weapon is much weaker than making the weapon +2, as master working already grants a +1 to hit that does not stack. So It is much more common to see +0 swords. If you are ok with that, that's fine, but one thing you can do is have masterwork weapons grant a +1 to both hit and damage, and increase the price of masterwork weapons. If you do this, your basically letting the PC's have a +1 weapon before they even make it magical. If you do this, I would recommend making increasing the enhancement bonus like a special ability, allowing the players to only take it once, granting them a total of +2 to hit and damage max, and leaving one +1 special ability to be put on.

Now, another problem is that in E6, only the following weapon special abilities are available:

CORE: Distance, Merciful, Thundering, Throwing
APG: Cunning, Dueling, Grayflame, Jurist

I ran E8 and allowed up to caster level 10 through feats, so that allowed for alot more options such as:
CL8: Conductive, Defending, Frost, Furious, Holy, Huntsman, Ki Focus, Mighty Cleaving, Returning, Shock, Unholy, Vicious, Wounding
CL10: Corrosive, Flaming, Ghost Touch, Icy Burst, Keen, Menacing, Shocking Burst,Speed (+3 ability), Transformative

As you can see, some of these are weighted differently. Shocking and frost are 8th cl while corrosive and flaming are 10th cl.

I would recommend making a list based on your own ideas of what should be available or go by the highest level spell needed to make the item for availability in the game if you want them available in e6. Also, if you allow Caster Level 9, you get into the realm of +3 weapons.

Now, there is another problem that this opens up, which I somehow luckily never had to worry about: ammunition. With the +0 system, this doubles the amount of abilities you can theoretically have if you have a projectile weapon. This makes archery very powerful. Not sure the best way to deal with it. Maybe make it that only ammunition can be Magical, or that ammunition cannot be made magical.

That's basically it. Nobody ever put special effects on the armor, so I never had to worry about that, but I suspect it would be alot easier than dealing with weapons.

Hopefully this helped.

Sovereign Court

jlord wrote:
Hopefully this helped.

Thanks, yeah.

I suppose in future E6 games I'll likely include some +0 swords of flaming and the like, as it sounds like the crafting is the big issue.

The approach I take with E6 is that the higher level stuff might exist, but it just isn't something that can be replicated any more. So crafting is out for a lot of items, but you still might be able to quest for it.

To take on that CR 12 dragon, the players might need to find some "artifacts of the elder age", which in any other game would just be mid-level magic items.


joela wrote:
Question: Is there interest in a published Pathfinder E6 campaign setting?

Perhaps, but I would be more interested in a Pathfinder E6 edition, including only what you need for an E6 campaign with a few customizations in the classes and feats.

Grand Lodge

Monteblanco wrote:
joela wrote:
Question: Is there interest in a published Pathfinder E6 campaign setting?
Perhaps, but I would be more interested in a Pathfinder E6 edition, including only what you need for an E6 campaign with a few customizations in the classes and feats.

I think there is a dedicated site mentioned somewhere in the PF forums. Have a search in the forums.

The Exchange

I never really like the elemental add-ons for weapons anyway....I would rather see a set bonus in damage with flaming, frost, etc.. Like just a +1, +2, or +3 to damage in said element. You then could probably use some cantrips (maybe expanded to cover all elements) as the base for these items' costs and caster level requirement.


Bit of a necro I suppose but here is a link to an E6 wiki that people may be interested in (for those that don't already know). It also included Raising the Stakes, which is interesting.

Personally, I've played many low magic games and I have found the majority of them dull, not very well done, or generally a thinly veiled excuse to screw over players. I prefer levels 6-12 of playstyle honestly. I find it more fun because I feel I can fight more of the cool mythological monsters and more interesting bosses like that. And hell, I love magic items and spells and all that. However, I have to say that E6 looks like something that I'd like to play. It doesn't feel as aggressively restrictive and I like the different options of Cautious, Gestalt, and Lean Upward. I could see myself enjoying playing this game, or even running it.


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I agree. It's always DM's that want to play low magic campaigns, mostly as they "lose control".

I don't see the purpose for E6. The "sweet spot" in D&D is levels 5-9. By playing E6 you stop just as you're getting to the fun parts.

If you're worried about spellcasters taking over, just design a world that for some reason full spellcasters are not adventurers. No Druid, Wizards, etc. Only Bards, Pally, Alchemists, Rangers and so forth. See- simple. No messing with the rules or anything.

Or simpler- "No Tier 1 classes".

Mind you, they party will need a NPC cleric or something to raise them, etc at times.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Personally I think you would be even better capping this at E2.

Grand Lodge

If you want GRITTY (caps intentional) the E system works well.

Make it E3. Martials will get to +3 BAB, 3/4 casters will get to +2 BAB and Arcarnists +1 BAB. Full casters get access to level 2 spells. Saves also change at level 3.

Pretty much everyone is level 1. The great and mighty are level 2 and the tip of the iceburg heros are level 3. At this level hit points are a rare commodity. You could theoretically manage a game of thrones flavoured game at E3. The majority of your foes would be humanoids - monsters would be a big deal. This makes good legend level play, for example, Grendel? An Ogre. Beowulf could have pulled a big crit out while raging.

It would be a high care, high mortality game and you'd be thinking twice before making reckless decisions. My personal choice for bonus feats after level 3 would be skill focuses so you could pull off awesome (for a given value of awesome) with a degree of confidence.

You can try things that your normally wouldn't - like light armour games. BABs are low so dodge, expertise etc and light armours (ala renaissance era's) are not entirely retarded (whereas the concept doesn't play well at all in mid level games where martials can easily hit BAB+8 at level 2 or 3 and after that hit AC 10-15 with little effort at all). Defensive fighting has some benefit here. Firearms? They work really as they historically rolled out... Armour is GOOD for day to day adventuring and combat versus NON gunpowder threats but firearms just blow right through it (with the touch AC) so why spend a lot of money to wear it?

Grand Lodge

My take on E6 (though I go to E7) is I don't like the complexity beyond level 7, and that I've ALWAYS liked lower level games. I like that a troop guardsmen with crossbows can be level 1 warriors and still be a threat (though by the time you hit EPIC, ie the 6th level, you deserve to be able to be kickarse enough to take a squad John Wu style single handledly), that an Ogre is ALWAYS going to be a big deal - hit points are a limited commodity... falling 100 feet is more or less fatal whereas at levels 10+ its an inconvenience.

I find the scale of play is just too far out there after 8-9. The hero's have to face bigger and bigger and bigger foes and in increasing numbers.

Its just my personal preference.


I've run up to level four a game with Wounds and Vigor/Called Shots before college ended for people. I may try restarted it up and having it go to E6. I might even uses the Apprentice Rules that I picked up from Super Genius Games. I have toyed with the idea of having the players as teenage characters just starting their adventuring days as journeymen. Of course, I'd have to make them all similar age groups because it would be very odd to have a young elf and a young human both in one group :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hell, just be first level for eternity. Death will never be cheap.


I don't have an issue with death being cheap. I just wanted to try Wounds and Vigor and we actually liked the system.

Then again, I don't have an issue with a lot of things people have on these forums.


Question: Given that Pathfinder has a slow level progression track that would help keep players at the lower levels for longer, why not make use of that? Start them at level 2 or 3 to give them some hit points if you want, but you will have a much longer time between level-ups. Then you can just stick a cap on the game at level 8 or so and call it good. If that is still too fast for your tastes or if you want to control progression more, you could just tell your players that you want to play a game where you tell them when they level up.


Wildonion wrote:
Question: Given that Pathfinder has a slow level progression track that would help keep players at the lower levels for longer, why not make use of that? Start them at level 2 or 3 to give them some hit points if you want, but you will have a much longer time between level-ups. Then you can just stick a cap on the game at level 8 or so and call it good. If that is still too fast for your tastes or if you want to control progression more, you could just tell your players that you want to play a game where you tell them when they level up.

From what I can read of E6, it is less about slowing leveling up pre-6. Seems more about stemming post-6 abilities that would normally make certain plot elements difficult and retain a certain low fantasy (read: not low magic) feel that some people prefer. If you would, it's like the opposite of Epic/Mythic rules.

Still don't know why it's called Epic 6. Kind of a misnomer if you ask me.


I understand that and I think they are actually a nice set of rules. Never got a chance to try them though.

However, in the end the point seems to be to stem the tide of higher level abilities and the need for magical equipment that come with it. So delaying the ability for players to reach the higher levels should work for many campaigns that want this sort of game, given that they are probably not likely to reach the higher levels (11+) anyway.


A lot of it is also that 6-8 is considered a 'sweet spot' for classes and adventures, so some GMs want to get to there and then keep the players hovering there. Players really come into their powers around that point and they can also start tackling some of the CR6+ mythological creatures a bit more often, like minotaurs and lamias. The players still grow with feats every 5000 XP. So, GMs want to get players to levels 6-8, then more or less keep them around that power level.


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I've just preferred kind of taking the opposite approach from E6.

E6 makes the players weaker so that the world around them seems more threatening.

I just made the world around my players more threatening.

Sure, they can scry, but lots of people can scry, so EVERYONE owns anti-scrying stuff.

The wizard can fly, but this is common, so anti-flight traps and such are installed everywhere.


Odraude wrote:
Still don't know why it's called Epic 6. Kind of a misnomer if you ask me.

It's called Epic 6 because the system demonstrates that level 6 play can be just as "epic" (as in cool) as level 20.

As the original author noted, most monsters from real world mythology fall into this range. These monsters were epic to our ancestors and any farmer in the game that sees the party battle a griffon in the middle of his corn field is going to have his mind blown the same as if he saw them fight a demon (typical of high level play).

It's all about calibrating expectations about what is "epic", ignoring Epic rules.


I think with the change to Toughness from 3.5 to Pathfinder, we may need a feat that allows for more HP. Maybe one that grants the character one hit dice in a class that they have taken a level in?


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E6 does not just effect the player characters, it changes the feel of the world. 90% of the world are nothing but level 1 commoners with 2-5 HP. Even a Level 1 Wizard is considerably more powerful then they are and it makes level 1 characters feel like competent heroes in their own right and level 6 characters seem legendary in comparison to them.

I am currently running a E6 Kingmaker on these forums, and altered some of the NPCs to fit the feel of the world. One of the low-level NPCs in the beginning is now a deadly Swordlord because I downgraded his level to 2, and added the Aldori Swordlord archetype to him.

Noleski Surtova, the ruler of Brevoy, was changed to a Aristocrat 1/Warrior 3, making him feel like a Warrior-King in comparison to others even through he is using NPC classes.


I'd be interested in an E6 compilation. I've always enjoyed the lower levels of play, which are less of a headache than higher levels, where there's so damn much to remember, especially if you're a spellcaster.


If I would ever consider an E"n" game it would be E3.

This would be set in the world of Arturian Legend, i.e. most of it would be gritty medieval reality with just a bit of Magic and Wonder mixed into it.

Or alternatively in a Sherlock Holmes/Cthulu crossover world of the 1850s.

E6 would be still too much of a stretch for a "realistic" world and 0th-1st Level opponents are only cannon fodder on Level 6 anyways, so I don't really see the use in E6 instead of just banning certain spells and powers.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If I ran an e6 setting it would be a humanocentric steampunk/gothic horror setting. One monster per adventure. Enemies are mostly NPCs, haunts, traps and investigations.

Grand Lodge

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I heartily support E6 for those who prefer it. It lets me know instantly whether or not I will enjoy gaming with the DM or not.

Sovereign Court

I think E6-8 is indeed best if you want a humanoid-centered campaign, rather than a PCs vs. Monsters kind of campaign.

I was considering E8, but there were too many cool CR 13+ monsters that I didn't want to miss out on. But I'll reconsider when I get Ultimate Combat and make a Wild/Weird West campaign.

I like the idea that PCs still stay "mortal", that while they're a lot more badass than common people, common people are still the same species and can still hurt the PCs. You don't need to level up NPC authority figures to absurd heights to make them plausible either; a level 5 Fighter as sheriff isn't so jarring as a level 15 fighter sheriff.

Like I said, I think E6/8 is particularly good for humanoid-centric campaigns.


I'm the kind of GM that likes my players to be awesome and I'm okay with new spells. I'm not in the "+1 longsword needs to be rare to be special" camp because it just does not work. But, I'm interested in E^N because I am interested in trying a low fantasy setting that rewards players. If I did E6-8, I'd probably allow feats that gave them higher level spells, better BAB, class feature, etc. I'd probably have incantations from Unearthed Arcana to allow stronger spells that are rare and lost from the 'Golden Age of Magic'. I'd give Wounds & Vigor a try with my group since they liked it, but for others I'd ask their opinion. Same with Words of Power.

And finally, I do plan on rewards my players with more than just loot (which I'd do in a standard game anywho). Thanks to the Kingmaker rules (remastered by Jon Brazer Ent) and some homebrew guild rules me and a friend made, I'm a-okay with giving players their own guild, kingdom, church, etc. I also allow Leadership to be taken at character level 6 instead of 7. Favors from leaders and other mages, etc. I think it would be a fun game.


A lot of it is about avoiding the higher-level magic's complexity, and also about fitting the world you want. I want E6-8 because I want a setting that feels more like those in most literature, where magic is relatively rare.

That doesn't mean I'm going to make +1 swords special by making them rare. I want items to be special, but I want to do that by having them be interesting. In E6-E8 I won't bother trying to limit items extra. The fighter will still get his magical weapon. In another setting I'm working on, with a different system, a magical weapon will be very rare (and, if I do my job right, interesting)... but it won't be a problem not to have one, because the system won't be built around the assumption that you have a magical sword.

E6-E8 makes it much more believable that settlements can stay "safe" without needing very high level characters. Granted, a level 5 character is equivalent to a level 15 or so in terms of rarity... but the power isn't so astronomically greater.

And as I'm playing in a game right now where, essentially, the world was made more dangerous to challenge the PCs, I prefer a world where the PCs are less dangerous. It's less of an arms race, and makes for better stories, I think.


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PhelanArcetus wrote:

A lot of it is about avoiding the higher-level magic's complexity, and also about fitting the world you want. I want E6-8 because I want a setting that feels more like those in most literature, where magic is relatively rare.

Sure. Like LoTR , right?

Oh wait.

Party of nine, one had the single most powerful greater Artifact in the world (a ring so powerful as to make the Ring of Gaxx cry itself to sleep at nite), another the 3rd most*, plus a artifact sword and suit of armour. Not to mention a powerful staff, two powerful named relic bane weapons, each hobbit having a bane dagger, a Gem of Brightness on steroids, cloaks of elvenkind all around, ......

Yep. Rare.

And, that's not even including the minor items, which according to the guys that got the rights to make the RP game from Tolkien, included Gimli's axe, his armour.....

*Geez crikeys, even downplaying Gandalf's ring to "just" a ring of Elemental Command= should not be toted by anyone less than 17th level- if that.

But honestly guys. look at the posters here. It's *DMs* who want to limit the magic their players get. Players- by and large- LIKE magic.


MicMan wrote:

If I would ever consider an E"n" game it would be E3.

This would be set in the world of Arturian Legend, i.e. most of it would be gritty medieval reality with just a bit of Magic and Wonder mixed into it.

Have you read Le Morte d'Arthur? Lancelot was a Epic level Cavalier, and the rest not far behind. They walked the earth like demi-gods. No Gritty there.

Gritty is over-rated and rarely done right anyway.


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DrDeth wrote:
PhelanArcetus wrote:

A lot of it is about avoiding the higher-level magic's complexity, and also about fitting the world you want. I want E6-8 because I want a setting that feels more like those in most literature, where magic is relatively rare.

Sure. Like LoTR , right?

Oh wait.

Party of nine, one had the single most powerful greater Artifact in the world (a ring so powerful as to make the Ring of Gaxx cry itself to sleep at nite), another the 3rd most*, plus a artifact sword and suit of armour. Not to mention a powerful staff, two powerful named relic bane weapons, each hobbit having a bane dagger, a Gem of Brightness on steroids, cloaks of elvenkind all around, ......

Yep. Rare.

And, that's not even including the minor items, which according to the guys that got the rights to make the RP game from Tolkien, included Gimli's axe, his armour.....

*Geez crikeys, even downplaying Gandalf's ring to "just" a ring of Elemental Command= should not be toted by anyone less than 17th level- if that.

But honestly guys. look at the posters here. It's *DMs* who want to limit the magic their players get. Players- by and large- LIKE magic.

You bring up a good point about low magic. I notice that for low magic settings, it's mostly GMs that want it while for Epic levels, it's players that want it. Of course, they also come with their negative stereotypes, with Epic lovers seen as entitled, munchkiny powergamers and low magic lovers seen as control freak, rail-roady GMs. I'm sure there's some balance between the two. I'm sure a mature group would be fine with a low magic setting and a mature GM would be alright with an Epic setting.

However I plan to run E6 as a low fantasy, not low magic. People are still going to have normal magic items and such. I'm just going for a different flavor and seeing how that works because hell, I like trying new things.

Just because it is rarely done right doesn't mean it can't be.


Helaman wrote:


You can try things that your normally wouldn't - like light armour games. BABs are low so dodge, expertise etc and light armours (ala renaissance era's) are not entirely retarded (whereas the concept doesn't play well at all in mid level games where martials can easily hit BAB+8 at level 2 or 3 and after that hit AC 10-15 with little effort at all). Defensive fighting has some benefit here. Firearms? They work really as they historically rolled out... Armour is GOOD for day to day adventuring and combat versus NON gunpowder threats but firearms just blow right through it (with the touch AC) so why spend a lot of money to wear it?

No. The armor got heaviest with the introduction of firearms. Firearms were in fairly common use by 1400. Full Gothic Plate hit it's height about 100 years after.

Armour- the heavier the better- was effective vs firearms up until the musket, at about 1700.

3/4plate and half-plate (which is NOTHING at all like PF half-plate, which is plate & mail) was in common use (and considered effective against anything but a short ranged direct hit) still in the year 1632.

When you went into battle, you bought the heaviest armour you could afford. 3rd Ed got this wrong, and PF has continued this.


Epic is about the heroes and what they accomplished. Whether the characters were 5th level or 15th level, it is what they did that made the story epic. The power of a hero can only be measured relative to the setting in which that hero exists.

All of the items you mentioned could be written up as +2 or +3 items or as supreme +10 items and artifacts, but the numbers don't make them epic it is the setting that does that. The e6 crowd is desirous of a certain type of setting that the low end of Pathfinder can emulate, but is inhibited by the presence of the high end of the level spectrum.

It is one of the strengths of the 3.5/Pathfinder system that it can be tailored to suit various preferences. Some people like low level play and other people like high level play. There is nothing wrong with either preference and are both valid styles.


I think what's helped me and my group is that we've all played and GMed at some time or another and can always see both sides of the coin. In my younger years, I used to balk at the thought of banning a class for setting reasons and would throw around terms like "rail roading" and "cheese" at GMs. Once I started Gm in my teenage years though, I started realizing just how hard it was to GM a game you wanted to run and how many novice players can be huge, entitled a++!+**s. I've also seen my fair share of horrible GMs in my years and learned from them what not to do. I try often to be a player and a GM at the same time, as often as I can. It really helps keep things in perspective on both sides. I learn to be more accepting of a GM's setting and wishes, and I learn to be more compromising and ready with my player's requests.

I GM as a fairly player-centric, almost self-conscious DM that focuses on my players being challenged and having fun. I work best shooting from the hip and improvising story hooks and my pitfalls are probably maintaining a long, involved story arc like you see in adventure paths. But I know that whether I'm running basic Pathfinder, Mythic Adventures, or E6, my players will have fun.

Silver Crusade

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I've never run a campaign past level 10 before.

But here's some epic things my group has done:

Completed a ritual to resurrect a long dead race of lycanthropic elves (level 2)
Gained the trust of Erastil's Herald the Great White Stag (level 4)
Defeated a Fey Queen in a beshadowed realm (level 6)
Lead an army in a war against a troll kingdom (level 7)
Killed a kaiju owlbear (level 8)
Defeated an ice elemental incursion and freed a colossal fey rock from imprisonment. (Level 9)
Watched a time tossed shadow elf city burn to cinders as the fey queen enacted her revenge on the party (Level 9)

You don't need special rules to be mythic. You don't need high numbers, fistfuls of iterative attacks or teleportation magic. Epic/Mythic play is about description, about motivation and about stories to tell around the table. My players feel like big, damn heroes every game. Even when they face setbacks. Epic play is about Big Ideas, not big numbers. If you stay up a Demonlord with 100 HD or 10 HD, it won't matter to the players if they are invested in the game and felt challenged.

Sovereign Court

Dudemeister: you said it.


I wanna play E6. *sniff* The whole reason I want to run it for my group is to show a player that it is perfect for the world he is working on. (that I am playing in)

I keep seeing how some folk are further limiting spell casters, as in, E6 and do not allow primary casters... or somesuch. I think E6/8 is viable even for a magic is common campaign. Its just easier to tweak an E6 for a low magic game.

For me, it is the idea of npc's being relavent. That I do not feel like I am moving from town to town in an MMO. Beginer town with weak mobs and guards..Next town everyone is fifth level....next town, everyone is ninth level.... and so on. I like the idea of my character ( and the party as a whole) finding a group of townsfolk intimidating. I like the idea of castles being useful. I like the idea of powerful spells needing multiple casters to succeed. (gives mages a reason to have apprentices)

Currently, I DM a group that is 16th level Pathfinder. I play in two other Pathfinder games. (kingmaker and carrion crown) And play in a homebrew using Pathfinder rules and a plethora of houserules to try and limit magic and give a "gritier" feel. I think E6 would be the easier route.

The next Pathfinder game I run will be E6. But the next game I run will more than likely be Deathwatch :P

Greg


As I'm brewing up my low fantasy setting, I do want to make use of the Wounds & Vigor, Called Shots, Words of Power, and Armor as DR rules. I've only used the first three and I and my players did like them a lot. I think only Words of Power was met with some apprehension since at the time, it was done side-by-side with normal casting and I feel it's probably better if it is the only style of casting. I am adding some homebrew words, mostly for curse spells, and incantations from Unearthed Arcana for the higher level spells. I'm also definitely having firearms, either emerging or common-place. Unsure yet.

I've looked at Armor as Damage Reduction and while I wouldn't mind trying it, I feel that those stuck with light or no armor would get heavily penalized. I've pondered adding a Dodge roll mechanic where you can roll your Acrobatics skill and use that as your Defense Score/Touch AC (similar to Snake Style). Armor check penalties could apply. Maybe add dodge bonuses to the roll? Just something to kick around and see what people think. If it seems like unneeded complexity, I'll probably just axe Armor as DR all together and stick with what new rules my players and I are comfortable with.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Odraude wrote:
You bring up a good point about low magic. I notice that for low magic settings, it's mostly GMs that want it while for Epic levels, it's players that want it. Of course, they also come with their negative stereotypes, with Epic lovers seen as entitled, munchkiny powergamers and low magic lovers seen as control freak, rail-roady GMs. I'm sure there's some balance between the two.

Yes there is.... Use the game as it is. :)


Odraude wrote:


You bring up a good point about low magic. I notice that for low magic settings, it's mostly GMs that want it, while for Epic levels, it's players that want it. Of course, they also come with their negative stereotypes, with Epic lovers seen as entitled, munchkiny powergamers and low magic lovers seen as control freak, rail-roady GMs. I'm sure there's some balance between the two. I'm sure a mature group would be fine with a low magic setting and a mature GM would be alright with an Epic setting..

I like High Fantasy & moderate magic, but I don't care for Epic. IMHO that's when the heroes semi-retire as a party and do individual quests & stuff. Also gets too powerful.


Id' love to play in an E6/8 game. Dangerous, gritty games where low-level opponents are still threats and there isn't the uber-complexity of high-level pay just sounds fun to me.

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