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Greetings...
So recently I've been thinking of running a lower level game, with less of a focus on high magic and such that I normally have seen in my games and my friends as well as lower magic setting that base dnd/Pathfinder doesn't encourage.
A while back I read the E6 Rules for dnd (Findable here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719). Basically the idea is that characters stop leveling at level 6 and every 5000 xp they get a bonus feat and that's all. Part of what it is does is stop some of the dungeon breaking spells and spellcaster dominance / setting breaking that can happen.
So I was wondering - has anyone played Pathfinder with E6 rules? If so how did it work? What did you like/dislike of it?
Thanks for your time,
Cob
I'm afraid I haven't used E6, but I'd like to thank you very much for bringing it to my attention, as it's a very cool idea.
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I'm hard at work on a mod for E6 for pathfinder. The most difficult thing, imo is making sure PC's even out well at level 6. I changed all Wizard second school powers to hit at level 6, for example. I did similarly for domain abilities for clerics, and Bloodline Powers for Sorcerers. I also modified some of them for more usefulness.. some of the powers which are like "this ability can be used once per day at level 4 and +1 time per day every 4 levels thereafter" have been modified or are in the process of modification.
I allowed Fighters to buy higher level Combat Feats once they hit level 6 without the BAB requirement, but instead a minimum # of "combat feats" requirement.
Barbarians can buy some higher level Rage powers and DR (twice) as a post 6th level feat as well. It's still heavily in the planning stages.
At 5th level (6th for Sorcerers) Clerics, Druids and Wizards can begin learning 4th level spells as "Rituals" which have a long time and material components cost. 5th level spells require multi-caster rituals, requiring a total number of "caster levels" and materials to be present. The 3.5 supplement Unearthed Arcana has a ritual system as well.
Then comes my own setting mods, which have no bearing on my above suggestions
* Caveat: I despise magic item economy with the fire of 1000 suns, but don't want to cut out magic items and creation permanently
* Permanent(non scroll/potion) magic item creation causing long-term ability damage (imbuing a magic sword with a +2 enchantment and a +1 ability for example causes a 1 year long 3 point STR damage, and in some cases of powerful items, permanent ability damage). Given that restoration is a 4th level spell, and thus now a Ritual with time and component requirements (5th level Clerics aren't just lying around either in a setting with a 6 level cap).
* I also give the PC's +1 to an ability score at each level up; but it can't be placed in the same stat on back to back levels. The reason I do this is to simulate growth as PC's level, and also because I only give them 15 point buy during character creation, as well as the relative scarcity of magic items
I'll post up when I get it finished, though I might have to make two versions, because I'm also in the middle of monkey-wrenching Alignment out of the system as well.
-Idle
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I'm interested in this sort of technique, but I'm not certain what the best level to halt at is. I've seen six ,but also eight or ten. I understand the need to make it an even level, but beyond that, what sorts of effects have people seen by trying different levels. What sorts of XP preogression seems to work best up to the cap?
I intend on use the slow progression from the pathfinder core-book. I want to make sure the party has multiple adventures at each level and a chance to use their new toys from each level up at LEAST once, hopefully more. (I also tend to do alot of downtime between adventures, a month usually, unless the flow of the adventure necessitates immediacy).
-Idle
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Shadow - my issue with Level 8 is that 4th level spells are where I find things start to break a bit. They are for a lot of combat purposes not as good as 3rd level in a lot of occasions but for plot breaking and such it starts to break down here.
A quick list of 4th level spells (all core) which illustrate this: (note some of them are 'cool' but to me often feel like they should be more of a plot device or something that's more situational)
Scrying
Divination
Tongues
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Lesser Geas
Scrying isn't too bad without 5th level spells but it does ruin a lot of different plot ideas and areas. If you went to 10th level though it gets pretty bad - Scry and Fry enters.
Divination just bypasses mysteries at times. You can work on riddles and such but if the Gods *want* to help their subject it doesn't make a lot of sense unless you have rules for cosmology.
Tongues is another mystery cracker and personally my feeling is if it obligatory to the situation that they *must* learn to speak with them there should be another way. But then - I change Comprehend Language to be like Jump for any game I think thats going to come up (+10 to linguistics checks +20 at 5th etc and lets you make the check untrained).
Black Tentacles is just a whole combat ender. An I win button a lot of the time.
Dimension Door's issue is the fact with decent range (720 at level 8 ) you can move without line of sight or effect. So it can bypass whole regions and such. Not as egregious as Teleport and less combat useful due to the fact it ends the turn but still a long range no-sight-required teleport. (On another note - Wizards at mid-levels who aren't ethically constrained don't really have to worry about money with spells like teleport and DD. I mean unless you get someone to make an anti-teleport magic item for your room/house, they can just hop in, steal what they need and be out in under 30 seconds).
Lesser Geas is up there as its a weaker dominate type effect. Whereas Charm Person influences Geas forces for a week or so if its at all possible.
My issue with a lot of these things is how it renders skills and thinking down to just pulling the right spell/scroll up. Though as I said 4th level is far from the worst for some stories.
Now I've played and enjoyed and GMed my fair share of high fantasy dnds but I brought this up as I was curious if anyone has and I've been thinking about something a little different in tone lately.
I must point out that Tounges is a second level bard and third level wizard spell so E6 allows it anyway and those other spells can be deleted or modified if they cause too many problems without really effecting the game as a whole.
That being said the difference between level 6 and level 8 also allows 3/4 bab classes to get multiple attacks and the next tier of combat feats which may impact on the melee character a fair amount.
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I must point out that Tounges is a second level bard and third level wizard spell so E6 allows it anyway and those other spells can be deleted or modified if they cause too many problems without really effecting the game as a whole.
That being said the difference between level 6 and level 8 also allows 3/4 bab classes to get multiple attacks and the next tier of combat feats which may impact on the melee character a fair amount.
You're right - my mistake there. I thought I had double checked on that but must have missed on that one.
8th level also opens up a lot of class abilities - some of which are nice - some not so much (from a balance stand point).
I like the break E6 has really though I think for PF to keep the feel you'll want to make a couple house rules (like limiting the number of cantrips. Though for my sanity when thinking about things like setting I want to do that anyway as my brain starts to melt when I consider things like impact on economy and such).
8 on the other hand is the natural pathfinder cut off. A lot of abilities come in at 8 as mentioned by others.
One thing I do like about such a cap is that it allows the assumption of lots of low level commoners, guards and low level aristocrats to make more sense in context. It means a mid-high level character can't decide to basically take over a region and do it quickly without trouble alone. Level 9 mayors in small towns (unless there's a good reason) can now pass away as you don't have to worry so much about showing Authority Equals Asskicking because in this rule set comparatively mundane powers are the highest level of power.
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I´ll be starting a P6 campaign soon as well and found the following feats with google. Guess it might me interesting to share them here. (Thanks to the original poster)
Ability Advancement [Combat]
You've spent time perfecting one of your abilities.
Benefit: Choose one Ability Score; you gain a permanent +1 bonus to that ability score.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, however, it may only be taken twice for each ability score.
Combat Training [Combat]
Frequent and focused combat training have increased your battle prowess
Benefit: Your Base Attack Bonus increases by 1.
Special: You may only take this feat twice.
Expansive Skill
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times.
Skill Beyond Your Years
Prerequisite: Level 6
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you select a skill. Your max ranks with the chosen skill rise from 6 to 8.
Caster Training
Prerequisite: Character level 6, Ability to cast Arcane or Divine spells.
Benefit: Choose a spell casting class that you have, your effective caster level for that class becomes equal to your total hitdice +2. This does not grant you additional spells or slots.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, however, you are required to choose a class with which you have not taken this feat.
Expanded Spell Repertoire
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefit: Choose a spontaneous spellcasting class in which you can cast spells. You gain an additional spell known for each level of spell that you can cast.
Expanded Casting
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast. This feat may be taken multiple times.
School Specialist
Prerequisite: Wizard 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the eighth level specialist power from your chosen school. If you have chosen the Abjuration School, you instead increase your Resistance ability from 5 to 10.
Awakened Bloodline
Prerequisite: Sorcerer 6
Benefit: You gain your bloodline's bonus 3rd level spell, and its 9th level granted bloodline power.
Martial Veteran [Combat]
Prerequisite: Fighter 6
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you are treated as having fighter level 8, and Base Attack Bonus +8 for the purpose of selecting feats. In addition when using the Power Attack or Combat Expertise feat you are treated as having +8 Base Attack Bonus.
Master Combatant [Combat]
Mastery of your craft has increased the effectiveness of your fighter special abilities.
Prereq: Fighter 6
Benefit: You acquire Armor Training 2, and your Bravery increases to +3. You may also choose a second group of weapons with which to gain the Weapon Training Bonus, however, your bonus does not increase.
Focus Your Rage
Prerequisite: Barbarian 2
Benefit: You may select an additional Rage Power.
Special: You may select this feat twice.
Barbaric Resilience
Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You gain DR 1/--
Special: You may take this feat a second time, improving your DR from 1 to 2.
Extra Wild Shape
Prerequisite: Wild Shape Class Feature
Benefit: You may Wild Shape one additional time each day.
Special: You may select this feat twice.
Plant Shaping
Prereq: Druid 6, Knowledge (Nature) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may use Plant Shape I through your Wild Shape Class Feature.
Improved Elemental Form
Prerequisite: Druid 6, Knowledge (The Planes) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may use Elemental Body II through your Wild Shape Class Feature.
Extra Favored Terrain
Prerequisite: Ranger 3
Benefit: You may select a second Favored Terrain, but your terrain bonuses do not improve.
Step of the Wild Lands
Prerequisite: Ranger 6, Survival 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker and Camouflage class abilities.
Rogue Talent
Prerequisite: Rogue 2
Benefit: You learn one Rogue Talent of your choice.
Advanced Rogue Talent
Prerequisite: Rogue 6, Rogue Talent feat
Benefit: You learn one Advanced Rogue Talent of your choice.
Extra Domain
Prerequisite: Cleric 6, Knowledge (Religion) 6 Ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion)
Benefit: You gain the domain power and spell list of one additional domain associated with your deity.
Divine Channeling
Prerequisite: Cleric 6
Benefit: Your channel energy dice change from d6 to d8.
Divine Aura
Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: You may select one of the following Paladin Abilities to acquire; Aura of Resolve, Aura of Justice, or Aura of Faith.
Special: You may take this feat twice.
Excelling Flurry
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: You use Flurry of Blows with no penalty to your attack bonus.
Flow Like Water
Prereq: Monk 6, Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility
Benefit: You gain the Improved Evasion special ability and your Monk AC Bonus increases to +2.
Enlightened Spirit
The order of the universe flows through your mastery of ki
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: You gain the Ki Pool (lawful) benefit.
Enlightened Body
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your gain the Wholeness of Body Monk ability.
Enlightened Fist
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your unarmed strike damage increases by one step.
Dirge of Doom
Prerequisite: Bard 6
Benefit: You gain access to the Bard Song ability Dirge of Doom.
Experienced Performer
Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action.
Master Performer
Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks, Experienced Performer, Skill Focus: Perform (any)
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a swift action.
Lingering Song
Your inspirational bardic music stays with the listeners even after the last note has died away.
Prerequisite: Bardic Music
Benefit: If you use Bardic Music to Inspire Courage or Inspire Competence, the effect lasts for a number of additional rounds equal to the number of rounds that your performance lasted.
List of Feats...
Would you mind if I stole some of your feats for a E6 game I am planning? (Do we call it P6?)
Only problem with this feat. Since you're already at level 6, how are you going to get those two skill points to bump up the skill?
Expansive Skill
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times.
I would presume that you take this guy and fill the slots in?
Pathfinder lets the skill focus feats apply +3, and the +6 later on. It might be reasonable to allow a 'Greater Skill Focus' feat that grants the additional +3 and stacks with Skill Focus. Also requires the former as a prereq, obviously.
That doesn't work if you build level by level which is the legal way.
The character needs to be sixth level before they can qualify for the feat so all skill pts have been allocated. so there are no further pts to bump a skill from 6 to 8 since no further levels are granted.
Yes, but there is a E6 feat that gives you more skill points. So what you'd do is take the feat that lets you have up to 8 ranks in a skill, then next time you gain a feat take the feat that gives you extra skill points.
We tend to play GestaltE8 (GE8), it gives characters flexibility that just 6 or 8 levels don't.
We tend to play GestaltE8 (GE8), it gives characters flexibility that just 6 or 8 levels don't.
That's what I thought as well but we made a Fighter with E6 with 10 extra feats and it can coinflip a CR 10 by itself
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Brought up E6 on the homestead and I thought I was going to be clubbed to death.
Paraphrasing the response.
"My favorite level? It's first because it's that level that evokes promise. E6 is that promise aborted. It's appealing perhaps to Game Masters who want to cap the powers of players to just above the peon level."
Nice. I also brought it up for my gaming group. We have a person making a homebrew campaign, and he wanted magic to be rare and in a select few. Based on some of his descriptions, E6 sounded like what he was looking for ( ritual magic for higher spells, wizzies need assistants/ clerics need large congregations/multiclerics)
So two players were very interested ( one of which was the homebrew guy)
One player had already known about it and had played it alot in some of his other gaming groups ( he plays alot more than the rest of us)
One player didn't care one way or another.
And finally, one fellow was furious with me for even bringing up such sacriledge. The idea actually angered him. (I think it is for capstone reasons... he likes capstones that give imortality, but we have yet to actually "play" a campaign up to twenty. We have played at higer levels, but those all started at higher levels.)
Greg
Brought up E6 on the homestead and I thought I was going to be clubbed to death.
Paraphrasing the response.
"My favorite level? It's first because it's that level that evokes promise. E6 is that promise aborted. It's appealing perhaps to Game Masters who want to cap the powers of players to just above the peon level."
Nice. I also brought it up for my gaming group. We have a person making a homebrew campaign, and he wanted magic to be rare and in a select few. Based on some of his descriptions, E6 sounded like what he was looking for ( ritual magic for higher spells, wizzies need assistants/ clerics need large congregations/multiclerics)
So two players were very interested ( one of which was the homebrew guy)
One player had already known about it and had played it alot in some of his other gaming groups ( he plays alot more than the rest of us)
One player didn't care one way or another.
And finally, one fellow was furious with me for even bringing up such sacriledge. The idea actually angered him. (I think it is for capstone reasons... he likes capstones that give imortality, but we have yet to actually "play" a campaign up to twenty. We have played at higer levels, but those all started at higher levels.)
Greg
Yeah, stories like these are why I wouldn't bring up the idea of E6 until level 3-5 in a regular game, depending on how fast the progression is. For games that start at level 1, unless you're using the fast progression and drowning your players in experience points, it'll take a good amount of time to even get to level 6, much less past that.
If, when you get closer, the majority of your players like the power curve that E6 stops you at, great! If a majority expected to keep gaining levels then you either do that instead or let someone else DM a higher level game. The point of E6 is to capture the feel of a certain power level, where the characters are fantastic but still feel like mortals, and only works if the majority of people like that power level or are indifferent. If players feel that low levels are something you suffer through to get to the high levels E6 won't work unless you can shift their expectations and convince them that a 6th level character truly is super human and can have amazing adventures. The most important thing to make sure is the players have fun though, so if they want high levels don't force them to try E6(not that I think anyone here would try and force a player to do something they dislike).
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I'm currently running my groups through Shackled City, 1-20 intended. Afterwards, I intend to ask them what part of the level spectrum they felt most comfortable/had the most fun at. The next campaign will focus on that level band. If the first 6 levels are the answer, I'll bring up E6.
I'll throw my hat into the ring and state that I feel E8 works better for Pathfinder than E6. E8 allows for one more cool, unique class ability and gives full progression prepared/spontaneous casters 4th level spells. 4th level spells are nice and make them feel powerful, but are not all powerful. Plus they'll only be able to cast a couple 4th level spells per day.
My GM is considering E8 for our upcoming campaign. I've never actually played it but I really enjoy the concept (I'm a fan of the LoTR type settings).
Another tip, many people choose E6/8 for the low magic aspect. If you want to avoid the Christmas tree effect but are worried about the power curve, you could try looking into the Book of Exalted Deed's "Vow of Poverty" system. This system gives some item benefits, based on level, not equipment:
1st level: +4 AC, bonus exalted feat (exalted feats are found in the BoED)
2: Bonus exalted feat
3: +5 AC, continuous endure elements
4: Free +1 magic weapon effect, bonus exalted feat
5: Sustance
6: +6 AC bonus, deflection bonus +1, bonus exalted feat
7: Resistance bonus +1, +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score
8: +1 to natural armor, mind shielding, bonus exalted feat
...
Obviously this may need some tweaking. the default flavor is to allow a poor PC wearing rags to fight alongside a guy in full-plate, so you might drop the AC portions if they're going to wear armor, etc. A lot of the abilities allow the PC to survive without money for food and shelter (endure elements, sustenance, etc.); those abilities could easily be changed (endure elements --> feather fall for example). And since you're ditching the poverty aspect, a GM can feel free to add in fluff/useful wondrous items and such.
Just some food for thought.
Doing the mathcraft has convinced me that I would actually need to add very little to the game to make E6 scale quite well. I would be extremely careful as to what feats are added (DM created custom feats such as Ability Training), so that the PC's don't start acting like superheros. (Which is the point of E6 really, we don't want 4+ level spells breaking our game into a castingfest.)
I think the biggest thing might be to just sit down with your players, and show them what an E6 character with 10 extra feats might look like, and how cool such a character could be. And again for 20 extra feats. The differences are pretty pronounced, but without the arbitrary (and lopsided - compare Armor Training 2 to 4th level spells!) power boosts that come with adding levels.
Anyhow, I haven't run a game yet, but I plan to, and I'm fully expecting it to be much more of what I (and my playgroup) actually want out of our roleplaying game. I think E6 is brilliant.
As an aside - you could create a capstone feat requiring 6 levels of class for each class.
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Doing the mathcraft has convinced me that I would actually need to add very little to the game to make E6 scale quite well. I would be extremely careful as to what feats are added (DM created custom feats such as Ability Training), so that the PC's don't start acting like superheros. (Which is the point of E6 really, we don't want 4+ level spells breaking our game into a castingfest.)
I think the biggest thing might be to just sit down with your players, and show them what an E6 character with 10 extra feats might look like, and how cool such a character could be. And again for 20 extra feats. The differences are pretty pronounced, but without the arbitrary (and lopsided - compare Armor Training 2 to 4th level spells!) power boosts that come with adding levels.
Anyhow, I haven't run a game yet, but I plan to, and I'm fully expecting it to be much more of what I (and my playgroup) actually want out of our roleplaying game. I think E6 is brilliant.
As an aside - you could create a capstone feat requiring 6 levels of class for each class.
Right, different tastes for different groups/GMs. That's the beauty of it! I personally feel level 8 is the ideal stopping point but we are free to differ.
I had another musing about E6/8 and their philosophies. This is by no means 100% true for every standard or E6/8 game.
Your standard 1-20 (or X) campaign is like a novel or movie. Low level/inexperienced characters are introduced, a story is lined out, and the characters have a slew of montage worthy adventures as they gain levels/competence. Eventually the story reaches its climax when the characters are ready (level 20 or X).
This is the story of Star Wars. We are introduced to young Luke Skywalker (level 1) who goes on several adventures until he reaches sufficient level (15 I think according to Star Wars Saga Edition) to have a showdown with Vader/Emperor. At this point one must decide whether to end the campaign or continue into epic levels.
Your E6 or E8 game is like a daily/weekly/monthly TV show. Here we have a regular cast of heroes and villains that remain stable over long periods of time while having various adventures.
E6 is like the Ninja Turtles cartoon show (bear with me here). Shredder, the Foot Clan, and the turtles were fairly static; they did not grow much stronger week to week. Instead, the story was driven by Shredder’s machinations and schemes. Likewise the turtles did not grow increasingly more powerful. The show was allowed to continue season after season with no grand conclusion (until it ends).
With E6/8 you define who your villains are (Orcs, Goblins, Giants, etc.) and build the world around that sort of conflict/reality. The PCs will sometimes have miscellaneous adventures (we fought a griffin!) but the standard, week to week, conflict/story will always be there.
Very interesting points overall. I have been oscillating between E6 and E8, and the points made earlier feed into my eternal doubt.
I really like the kind of world the cap also entails. For example, I'm working, albeit very slowly, on an Eberron Pathfinder E6/E8 game. It's a setting with lots of low magic, very little high magic or characters. It seems perfect for it. Midnight also seems to fit very well with this system.
But the eternal struggle between 6 and 8... Better to add or to remove? At first, I really looked at BAB progression, where 8 makes more sense, as 1/2, 3/4, 1/1 really are the end points. Then I looked at spells, and while I agree some are trouble some, the list is small and can be easily announced from the start (again, it changes the world too).
I was about to launch such a game, as almost all of the games I was in seemed about to die. And just when I thought I was out, THEY PULLED ME BACK IN!
One thing I noticed after running my E8 game is that caster level 8 opened up a lot of open ended christmas tree items, while caster level 6 keeps the items much more restricted. For example the stat increase items are CL 8 items, and as far as i could tell, their is no difference in caster level for +2/+4/+6 items. Alot more work in regulating magic items needs to be done when your playing e8 IMHO.
Question: Is there interest in a published Pathfinder E6 campaign setting?
IMO: No!
First: most people play this game to see their PCs progress and grow - being able to challenge much more dangerous monsters/situations. E6 puts a stopper on that quite early. A feat a level isn't that much of a progression und usually does not offer exciting choices.
Also: This system is very complicated, requiring a total rewrite of most powers and the addition of many feats to be even remotely viable and still makes the majority of monsters/magic items OPed at their normal CR - forcing on the fly adjusts from the GM.
Basically E6 may be nice for folks who fear the complicated higher levels of play only to load the complexity on the GM to houserule away.
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Question: Is there interest in a published Pathfinder E6 campaign setting?
Yes there is. The style may not be to everyone's taste, but the fact that it is being discussed and played means interest. Interest means a potential market. It doesn't matter how many people say "no" to something if enough people say yes Every RPG needs a setting, and right now all the E6ers are home brewing and Modding. A published setting is just what is needed to alleviate the complexity loaded on the GM.
Not only does power increase more slowly in E6, it develops differently. High feat E6 characters are deceptively powerful in ways that traditional characters can't be. I'd like to see such a setting to see how folks handle important NPCs without just making them 15th-20th level and being done with it.
Question: Is there interest in a published Pathfinder E6 campaign setting?
Yes. Especially if it addressed some issues with PrC's and was focused on Pathfinder rules.
Greg
I would be very interested, as I am trying to use it for a Wild West/magic setting that remains gritty and low-powered.
A billion years ago, Columbia Games offered their HarnWorld starter kit for $5 or something. I bought it and mainly just ogled the really cool map.
I am now using it as the basis for my E6 Pathfinder campaign (first adventure tomorrow). In my opinion, it is perfect for E6, since the dominant evil creatures are orcs of varying sizes and the magic in the historical background is modest.
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I'm considering using Sean K. Reynolds' Step System to alleviate some of the granularity problem. I can give a different letter "sub-level" at 1/4 or even 1/2 xp for the chosen advancement track.
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I'm considering using Sean K. Reynolds' Step System to alleviate some of the granularity problem. I can give a different letter "sub-level" at 1/4 or even 1/2 xp for the chosen advancement track.Ah yes, that is a good solution for the lack of granularity. I forgot about that one.
Heart that system. If I remember my OGL, though, advancement systems are not open.
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Heart that system. If I remember my OGL, though, advancement systems are not open.
The 3.5 advancement system isn't open, but you can invent your own. Otherwise, games like Pathfinder RPG and Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, both of which just tweak the XP numbers, would be illegal. The OGL is even part of Sean's PDF.
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The 3.5 advancement system isn't open, but you can invent your own. Otherwise, games like Pathfinder RPG and Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, both of which just tweak the XP numbers, would be illegal. The OGL is even part of Sean's PDF.
Heart that system. If I remember my OGL, though, advancement systems are not open.
Good points. I'll look into incorporating it into the E6 campaign.
Thanks, everyone! I'll talk with my business partner over some additional details, but the product's looking quite promising.
List of Feats...
I have never played e6 (but want to run it), but I must say, I don't see the point of most feats. You stop the player at 6th level, but give them most of the benefits anyways? All they are missing out on is HP and and 4th level spells, and some make out better. Am I missing something?
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List of Feats...I have never played e6 (but want to run it), but I must say, I don't see the point of most feats. You stop the player at 6th level, but give them most of the benefits anyways? All they are missing out on is HP and and 4th level spells, and some make out better. Am I missing something?
No more Spells.
No more Hit Points.No more Skill Points.
No more Save Bonuses.
No more Class Abilities.
No more Base Attack Bonus.
No more Ability Score Increases.
Feats can be used to "patch" some of these areas, but since they're all you get, the power curve still drops dramatically.
List of Feats...I have never played e6 (but want to run it), but I must say, I don't see the point of most feats. You stop the player at 6th level, but give them most of the benefits anyways? All they are missing out on is HP and and 4th level spells, and some make out better. Am I missing something?No more Spells.
No more Hit Points.
No more Skill Points.
No more Save Bonuses.
No more Class Abilities.
No more Base Attack Bonus.
No more Ability Score Increases.Feats can be used to "patch" some of these areas, but since they're all you get, the power curve still drops dramatically.
My point was that they made feats for more skills, more class abilities, more base attack bonuses (even allowing any class better BAB than they would have at equal levels), and more ability score increases (allowing you to get more than you could have if you went full 20 levels). You stop at 6, but enough abilities to allow you to go onto 8. If you include all of those, you might as well stop at 8 and say "no fourth levels spells"
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This is true to a certain extent, but you're picking them up one at a time, not in a batch like leveling, and players need to make a choice. You can choose to buy the feats that emulate higher levels, assuming the DM allows those feats to begin with, or you can go a new directrion with new feat chains.
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Greetings...
So I was wondering - has anyone played Pathfinder with E6 rules? If so how did it work? What did you like/dislike of it?
Thanks for your time,
Cob
I'm still trying to figure out why people who want a low-magic game want to try Pathfinder/D&D and go with E6.
I *love* Pathfinder to death, but if I want a low-magic game, I'm going to pull out Iron Heroes and just play that.
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With Iron Heroes everyone needs to pick up an out of print book, you have to learn all the ins and outs of a different d20 system. In the end it's just easier to go with PF E6.
This. There is nothing "just do it" about picking up a new system. And frankly, The only time I've heard about Iron Heroes, is when someone is criticizing E6. It comes across as a bit of badwrongfun.
I'm still trying to figure out why people who want a low-magic game want to try Pathfinder/D&D and go with E6.
I *love* Pathfinder to death, but if I want a low-magic game, I'm going to pull out Iron Heroes and just play that.
For myself, Pathfinder is where all the action is at.
I don't have a tight nit group of regular players, instead it's a diffused network of players tied together through Living Greyhawk (now PFS) and other random RPG connections.
Everyone knows PF and the rules are free, so it's just a matter of broadcasting out to this larger group of players and see who shows up.
With Iron Heroes everyone needs to pick up an out of print book, you have to learn all the ins and outs of a different d20 system. In the end it's just easier to go with PF E6.
That's a terrible reason to go PF E6 rather than Iron Heroes, or that sort of logic leads to a lot of crappy games. Rules aren't generic. Even generic rules aren't generic, but lead to different sorts of 'genericism.'
Nevertheless, I agree with your conclusion largely because I disagree with your logic. Yes, Iron Heroes is a gritty take on D20, as is a E6 patch for Pathfinder. They aren't the same, and I can think of a lot of reasons why I'd prefer one to the other in a sort of game.