[Discussion] Players play the GM Character


Pathfinder Society

Dark Archive 4/5

I've been to a few cons now, and I've taken a look at the Pre-Gen characters, and I've seen this situation a few times:

1. Player A joins a Multi-gaming con, which his/her primary game is LSJ/LFR, but the modules he/she wants to play are Slot 1 and 3, and it's slot 2, but he doesn't want to sit around for 4-5 hours, so he picks up on a PFS Game and chooses to play the Level 4/7 Pre-Gen to "test" it out. Player A plays and once in combat, he/she plays the character and other players are dealing 30-50% more damage than he/she is able to, just because the Pre-gens don't have a "focus," while the other players do. Player A never plays PFS ever again.

2. Player B's table doesn't make (he's a GM), but there's another table which needs a fourth to make, but he/she doesn't have a character "of the level" (needs 7 and highest character is a 5), so GM picks up a Pre-Gen and really gets annoyed as the Pre-Gen has no real ability to contribute (RP or combat), so GM just sighs and sits back, getting frustrated.

3. Player C is a GM, which is looked to GM about 108% of the time, and he has three characters of varying levels, but has never played them, or seen them in combat.

See, the thing is, I, as a GM, have a character, that I would invite any player to use when I'm GMing if they don't have a character of the level, so I could see how I could fix and improve upon it (second opinion), and secondly, the character isn't just a side thing that I get to use once in a blue moon.

So, here's what I invite as a possible option; Player-run GM Characters:

- A Player may play a GM character any time they are required to use a pre-generated character in order to play the module.
- The GM has no say in how the player plays the character. The Player's decisions are his own.
- Only one player can play the GM character.
- The Player can only play the GM character of the GM at the table.
- The GM Character must be "of the level", in other words, it must be legal to play at the current table.
- If a player plays the GM character, the player may not take the character afterwards, unlike Level 1 Pre-Gen Rules.

Now, one thing I am not too sure about is a few rulings. Please discuss the below and list what you think about the four areas below.

1. PA - Now, since a player is playing the GM character, it's possible for the player to fail their PAs. Counting it as a GM Credit may be the "best" option.

2. Day Job - Again, due to GM bias, DJ Rolls may probably be better to be the same as "GM Credit" rulings.

3. Expendables - I wasn't too sure on this, but I was thinking the following: "If a player uses an expendable on a GM character, it returns at the end of a module." Just so a player's decisions don't screw over a GM too much.

4. ARs/Chronicles - I was thinking of the following text: "Both the GM and a Player get a Chronicle for the module. When the player gains a character that is able to apply the player credit, it may be applied immediately to the character."

What does everyone think?

Grand Lodge 2/5

Imper1um wrote:
What does everyone think?

My 2nd character has seen the table 2 times in 5 months and just hit level 4. Having said that I don't think I would want a player to 'use' my character. If things were slightly different and I had 2-3 characters I was spreading GM credit around on, or I had created 1-2 of them with the idea in mind they might get used by others...maybe.

In regards to your Chronicle type questions, probably the best and most sane track would be treat it as player character that the player would take with them. This would require them to create a character to be able to apply it to (if it was a sub-tier 1-2) or hold on to and apply when the character level hit the sub-tier played (IE: still have to create a level 1 and hold the sub-tier 3-4 you just played to apply as Chronicle #9). Provided the GM could also claim GM credit they would do so as normal.

Not a huge fan of this idea though.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

The following seems not to be representative - but as it was my only ever game I played in / GMed with a level 4 Pregen I thought I share (Ive seen loads of pregens at starter level).

So there we are - a group of players struggling to get two low level games together nobody has played. In the end we manage with one person playing for no credit in game one and I. Game two we have one GM replay and one level four pre-gen for a player who has no higher level character yet.

We play tier 4-5 and the player chooses Merisiell. As I have read here on the boards often enough she is pathetic - isn't she.

To cut it short - Merisiell out damaged any of the other characters - especially in one critical fight. And the player who played her had a lot of fun. And so did the rest of the group.

How was this possible?

We didn't have a dedicated fighter on the table. The team worked together - giving Merisiell ample opportunity to flank and shine in what she could do best.

I'm not saying she is strong - but it showed me huge lesson. How the group is made up and how they play together is much more important as any build.

So with all the optimisation ideas floating around here - keep in mind it is more important in what group a character plays.

Thod

Grand Lodge 3/5

Thod wrote:
So with all the optimisation ideas floating around here - keep in mind it is more important in what group a character plays.

Also: the skill of the players, the challenge of the scenario, the flexibility of the GM.... :) Good point, Thod.

Imper1um, I don't think that we would ever see anything like you are suggesting. First, the pre-gens are getting a revision to eliminate some of your concerns. Second, allowing a new player to play a GM character is very unpredictable, as the quality/accuracy of the character would vary wildly with the GM - at least with the pre-gens, the PFS organizers have control of the optimization of the character. Third, the pre-gen iconics are both open-ended and defined as far as personality (you can read about them in the Paizo Blog, if you wish), while some GMs may have difficulty with how some players would role-play their characters ("He would never do that!").

While the pre-gens may not be ideal at the moment, I think it is better to use some common characters than to have each GM have their own.

The Exchange 4/5

First off, I wouldn't be introducing new players to PFS by letting them play an upper level character. I would ask other tables if they have players with characters who can play up, and then see if I can find the new guy a spot at a lower level table.

Secondly, the pre-gens are trash for the most part. ACs, attacks, etc. are typically off in big ways.

I don't know what else to say except maybe have a laptop with hero lab with you and let them create a character really quick with it. And then PDF it send it to their laptop or mobile device (or anything else that can read PDFs). Hell, I'll let them borrow my iPhone if they are sitting at my table and I send them the PDF of their character.

The Exchange 5/5

I did let someone at my table play a lvl 1 character I had with me -- since I hadn't played the character yet and it was a class she wanted to try -- and no pregen of it was available. If it's a character I've played there is no way that someone is playing my character.

Dark Archive 4/5

Like I said, it's just a possible idea. I've just heard from two different tables, "This is how a cleric plays in Pathfinder? Uhh...I'll stick with <insert other RPG here>." and "I'm not too sure a fighter will two-hand weapons like this."

It's all about the group, I gander. I've run with power-hungry gamers and I've ran with RPers. It's all different each group.

One thing, Mark, my Cleric, is currently Level 10. He's seen a total of four tables, latest one was...at Level 9, and before that, I didn't play my Cleric since Level 2. It's a concern I have since I have a high volume of games GM'd.

While some people feel that introducing players to games at higher levels is a bad idea, I have had possible converts from other systems (3.5/4.0) that want to see the changes in full force, but I'm kind of forced to cross my arms and say that they have to play at Level 1. Yes, I know I can run a Level 7 and have them run a Level 7-11, but every group that I've introduced players to has been either a Tier 1-2, opening for one more, or it's been a 5-9, and they have had the first problem on this reply.

I just think that we generally need more L1 Pregens. I would like to see the other classes represented in the pregens. Also, I wish that Pre-gens would focus a little more, rather than being a "jack-of-all-trades" in order to sate everyone.

Dark Archive 4/5

I agree there are problems with the pre-gens, even the APG ones. I enjoy the use of the term "lack of focus" as opposed to "min/max". :)
I appreciate the Powers That Be making the characters general, but they need to be fluffed out (even the current pre-gens need Traits and Faction).
Perhaps there can be some established "focusing" for each pre-gen, by which I mean that the Feats and Spells should be open to the players choosing, but with guidelines offered. I would even go so far as to suggest an Ability Score option. Now, some newbs would be overwhelmed with too many options, so they could play the "basic" pre-gen, but those comfortable enough could stretch the character by using these options.
Example: Fighter, Options: Two-Weapons, or Sword and Board; Ranger, Options: Melee, or Ranged; etc.

Dark Archive 4/5

One thing I thought of when I was going to sleep last night. I love my characters. I've been building them for a while (some of them have taken 9 months to get to the point they are at), but, in the end, they are characters; a piece of paper. The goal of this post was not to "bolster" GMs or anything, but rather give me and other people trying to "convert" players a way to put PFS's best foot forward, by giving them the ability to say,

"Hey, here's a character I've been building up as a GM. So far, it's level 10. If you want, you can play it, check out the system and see the new changes in full force. If you like it, I can help you afterwards build a Level 1 and start working towards a powerful character like this."

I wanted to advertise this as a future possibility for a ruling to do one thing: Advertise. I go to at least three multi-gaming cons a year (MegaCon, New Years Con, GatorCon), and I have a few friends which are skeptical of the system, but would like to try it out. I have the same feeling that I don't like other players playing my character, but the more I think about it, I can't play my characters without players sitting at the seat, so I will be the sacrifice and hand over my character for a mod so someone can go "ooooh, I wantsees!" and start playing Pathfinder.

--

As for the Pre-Gens, I'm looking for more "Focused" pre-gens. I'm not looking for Min-Max. I expect them to do roughly about 75-85% of the ability of a normal player under normal circumstances. If I see a player frown when they try to hit, and fail, I'm not doing a good job as a "converter." I try to introduce players at Level 1, by helping them make a character, but Level 1 isn't good enough for some players (since they are used to having Level 8-12 characters). If you show the company car could be a Ferrari, they are going to want to work there. ;-)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5

evilernie wrote:

I agree there are problems with the pre-gens, even the APG ones. I enjoy the use of the term "lack of focus" as opposed to "min/max". :)

I appreciate the Powers That Be making the characters general, but they need to be fluffed out (even the current pre-gens need Traits and Faction).
Perhaps there can be some established "focusing" for each pre-gen, by which I mean that the Feats and Spells should be open to the players choosing, but with guidelines offered. I would even go so far as to suggest an Ability Score option. Now, some newbs would be overwhelmed with too many options, so they could play the "basic" pre-gen, but those comfortable enough could stretch the character by using these options.
Example: Fighter, Options: Two-Weapons, or Sword and Board; Ranger, Options: Melee, or Ranged; etc.

Nothing stops you from designing these on your own for local use. The problem for me would be high level pregens as I don't like messing with those. Pregens by definition pretty much have to be quick fill-ins. As a coordinator. I'd rather have someone build completely than go down the line like this trying to find the perfect pregen for them.

Frankly I have to question people who base an entire game off a pregen as they are notorious for being generic. They should be looking at the world/rules more. That said, the pregens don't do much for those looking at them for character build. They were designed around an 'interesting story' idea rather than a 'focused' one. Frankly, if I didn't tell my players about some of the really cool stories behind the iconics here, they wouldn't even know about them (I'm especially fond of the barbarian).

Also the lack of factions and traits seems to have been on purpose. That's a bit too much to be putting on a pregen. Not to mention you would then be locked into those factions. The current option lets the player choose should he decide to keep playing the pregen. Again, high level is still your sticky wicket.

If it's not apparant, I'm not a fan of letting people use the higher level pregens for a game. People aren't happy with low level ones, they will be miserable with high level ones.

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