Just wanted to get some feedback on whether or not this idea is crazy.
I wanted to make a character who uses the Summoner as a base, but instead of calling a powerful outsider, he becomes one. Here are some of the changes I was thinking of:
Uses Eidolon physicals, standard mentals
- to make this more fair, roll only the mental stats, or use a half point buy (7, 10, or 12) to buy mental stats only
No Summon Monster SLA
Remove other Eidolon specific abilities (life link, etc)
Since I'm losing out on the most powerful feature of Summoner, the action economy, I figured this is probably weaker than Summoner, but I think it would still be viable. If necessary, could tinker with the spell list to add/reduce power of the class.
Mechanics notwithstanding, this completely rewrites the flavor of the class, and in turn makes the summon monster ability and several of their spells inappropriate.
From what I've heard, the action economy is what makes the summoner overpowered. If you're looking for a fix for this, just require them to spend their own actions to direct their eidelon.
You've basically made an new class that bears little relation to the summoner.
makes the summon monster ability and several of their spells inappropriate
I did say "remove the summon monster ability". Or at least that's what I meant by "No Summon Monster SLA". I would welcome feedback on which spells seem inappropriate.
Oh, and I'm not looking to fix the Summoner. I'm looking for feedback on whether this idea seems both allowable and playable. I want something a reasonable GM would allow but still can pull it's weight.
And that's the beauty of it. It's such a simple change, but it's such a dramatically different character concept!
Thanks!
I was thinking of this for Council of Thieves. I know a lot of the other players are going some version of arcane class, and they thought it might be fun to have an entirely arcane party. I was toying with building a summoner with a bipedal eidolon for tanking, and my mental image of the eidolon just made me want to be that critter myself!
You've basically made an new class that bears little relation to the summoner.
That is actually the point. I figured I'd call it Planar Warrior. Make it based on a pact with strange extraplanar beings to become an avatar of their ideals on this plane.
kyrt-ryder, not sure I follow you. Glad for the offer of help though, as long as it doesn't take you away from your work with TOZ on the monster by level project. Looking forward to that one.
I had thought cast spells as a summoner, but I'm not stuck on that. Really just a matter of less changes = less work = easier for GM to see link to summoner.
If we're talking dropping the spellcasting entirely, what sort of abilities would you propose? Mid tier spellcasting offers a lot, after all.
EDIT: also, I'm not familiar with the spell like ability evolution. Just scanned my APG and didn't see it either.
It would be cool to have mechanics that let you re-evolve more than once per level.
Another option might be to turn select spells into supernatural abilities with limited usage.
That one seems easy: just take Transmogrify and make it a SLA usable x times per day. Maybe 1/day at 1st level and +1/day at each 5?
I wasn't looking for descriptions of evolutions in general, but of the spell-like ability evolution, which kyrt-ryder is saying was in the playtest but not the APG.
I think adding evolutions would probably be prudent, since a lot of evolutions won't be that applicable anymore, and some would be lousy for the cost. For example: simple weapons doesn't really apply, and martial would be far too costly at 4 points total to add just that. Better to take a feat for 1 martial weapon or use a race that gives you limited access.
I think I'd like to write this up as two versions: one simple one that is basically a slightly tweaked Summoner, and one more advanced version that's really a new class writeup that uses the Eidolon as a base.
That just gives others a couple of options in case they don't want to see a full rewrite, and isn't much more work.
I'll have to put some more thought into this and post again tomorrow.
Go right ahead. I won't be looking at this much until after work, but anyone who's got time to tinker is welcome to.
I was thinking 3/4 base because of the high stats, so if we back them down I'd be inclined to go full.
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I don't think the posters above me consider that a huge nerf to the summoner is sharing magic items with the Eidolon and the fact that the summoner is the weakest defensive class in the game (due to forced-focus on offense and less gp for defensive magic items). Also split initiatives is an existing nerf.
Your tweak removes that nerf, allowing far more economic benefit to magic items, so keep that in mind as a balancing factor. Overall though, it surely appears weaker but not as weak as a rogue :)
You need to change it to be 1hd per level instead of 15 HD/20 levels too.
Finally it isn't just action economy, there is also skill economy.
I got the part about split sharing items, but most builds I've seen focused on keeping the Summoner away from enemies and giving most of the goodies to the Eidolon. I don't see split initiatives as much of a nerf when you get two full round actions every round. If any other class had two full round actions but had to roll separate initiatives, I don't think anyone would call that a nerf.
I assumed we'd be using 20 hd. That's part of why I was thinking 3/4 BAB.
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that I want to write up two versions: "basically a Summoner" and "Planar Warrior new class".
"basically a Summoner" will have 3/4 BAB, Eidolon stats and evolution points, Summoner skills, and Summoner spells. Most of the class features won't make sense anymore and will go away. Most of the Eidolon limitations will stay (no armor, base form is set). Many spells will be taken from the list; I will come up with potential replacements but they will be suggestions.
"Planar Warrior new class" will use the full BAB d10 HD chassis and hang the Eidolon abilities as class features on that chassis.
At least, that's how I picture it. Still open to suggestions.
GUYVER!!!!
Had to get that out of my system :P
I think that's a good start. Stripping out the spell casting and the str/dex bonus leaves it feeling weak though. I definitely agree that it needs some more... something.
I think changing to a set of stat mods is probably the way to go for this version. I like your start, but I think we should keep the stat mods even, and maybe not penalize the mental stats at all. After all, if this is a melee beast, many players will view those penalties as meaningless, or at least not very restrictive, and the loss of skill points just takes away the variety of out of combat abilities you're looking for.
Let's add Fly, Linguistics, and Profession to the skill list. Then it'll have close to the combined class skills of both Summoner and Eidolon. We might want to remove Spellcraft; this isn't a caster anymore.
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I had thought cast spells as a summoner, but I'm not stuck on that. Really just a matter of less changes = less work = easier for GM to see link to summoner.
If we're talking dropping the spellcasting entirely, what sort of abilities would you propose? Mid tier spellcasting offers a lot, after all.
EDIT: also, I'm not familiar with the spell like ability evolution. Just scanned my APG and didn't see it either.
What about only allowing spellcasting when the planar warrior is not morphed into his outsider form?
We could make the stat buffs only +2s. Quadrupeds get Con, Bipeds get Str, Serpentine gets Dex. Then increase the stat boosts throughout levels.
I think we want to have spell like abilities in there as an evolution, just because they're so common to outsiders and it would really help give the feel of becoming some sort of outsider.
Do all outsiders still get all martial weapons? If so, we might want to put that in. Still no armor, and maybe not even any proficiency. As far as I remember from 3.5, outsiders were only proficient with armor if they were listed as wearing it.
I think we should give this class some daily abilities that replicate some of what a Summoner could do for his Eidolon. For instance, Mage Armor and Barkskin should be really common buffs on an Eidolon, and that's a good chunk of where it's AC is coming from.
I'm wondering: would it work to give more evolution points, but set it up so they have to be a little more spread out? Most outsiders are impressive because they're diverse. They have decent to good stats, SLAs, good sensory packages, good movement modes, etc. Should we be trying to replicate that, with some flexibility?
Here's my current PDF. I made a few additions to what we've talked about so far, so please give me feedback.
The PDF is really just the "Planar Warrior" idea. I called it an Eidolon but it's easy to change.
I took out the vast majority of the abilities because almost all of them were related to the Eidolon/Summoner pair. The result is a pretty sparse looking "Special" column.
I added an "Earthly Form" ability which lets you temporarily give up all class benefits so that you can walk around in town without causing problems, as well as a descriptions allowing you to "talk" even if you wouldn't normally have the ability to. Finally, I added some basic description of how multiclassing would work (anything that still makes sense you can use, plus spells).
As it is right now, it feels like the class doesn't have enough "oomph" to it, at least to me. Yes, it'd be kickass in melee, but barely any class abilities.
I think the best way to balance out the class while adding abilities would be to change the way the base form works. Instead of having ability scores, it should have ability score mods. I did get rid of the +str/+dex thing, but if we decide it's a key feature, I can add it back.
Anyway, I think base forms should be modifiers rather than resetting your stats. that makes it look like this... which still feels iffy to me.
Quadruped form: +4 str, +4 dex, +3 con, -3 int, +1 cha
Biped form: +6str, +2dex, +3con, -3 int, +1 cha
Serpentine form: +2 str, +6 dex, +3 con, -3 int, +1chaI haven't looked at how polymorph works in Pathfinder, but I know it changed and that's probably a good place to look.
Love the concept so far but it does need some more class features built in. Perhaps adding spellcasting back in (4th level spells like ranger/paladin progression? fits with the full BAB model).
Another idea is to add free boosts per day as if through the "Evolution Surge" spell. For example, levels X-Y, evolution surge, lesser; Z-XX, evolution surge; levels YY-ZZ, evolution surge, greater. Can be used number of rounds per day equal to Summoner level + Cha modifer. Spent in one round increments, non-consecutive.
As for the base form modifiers, the biped and serpentine have one high stat and two low (in terms of str, dex, and con), and the quadruped has two medium and one low, so the following:
Biped: +3 Str
Quadruped: +2 Str, +2 Dex
Serpentine: +3 Dex
Those modifiers may still be too high but the break down gives some choice: specialize in one stat or bump two?
Can't wait to see the next build.
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I'll toss some ideas.
When thinking of statistic bonuses, don't use odd numbers. If anything, I'd use the Pathfinder standard - since we're fused with an outsider -AFTER- our racials, though, it makes little sense to actually add any further modifiers (though it all takes playtesting/building).
If we have to add further modifiers, I'd keep it simple. This is what I would use for a spread.
Biped: +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX
Quadruped: +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 STR
Serpentine: +2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON
I'd further go forth to say to add a penalty to something like I have above (keep in mind, ideas. Mentals =/= physicals, but it's close. We can add those if you want).
Also - working off of Cibulan's post - if that's the case, raise both "major" stats at +4, but penalize something in turn - the tradeoff indeed.
EDIT: Yeah, those were attempts to balance out how it'd act -anyways- with a pointbuy build. It's bad to give such things out at first level, but if that's how it gets balanced...
Also! Class abilities. I'd give it Frightening Presence at about level 12, free - yes, I know we have it as an evolution, but make it free at a mid-high level. If something otherworldly walked up to you, right now, I think you'd be intimidated.
Another thought would be something similar to the Salamander's aura, but typed to an energy (your choice), and reduced one die if sonic (since that's usually how it works.) You simply exhume so much of it, etc...
When thinking of statistic bonuses, don't use odd numbers.
Yeah, that was totally a brain dead moment:
Biped: +4 Str
Quadruped: +2 Str, +2 Dex
Serpentine: +4 Dex
I understand the need to balance it by reducing another stat; however, given how sparse this class is already on class features I don't think it would harm anything by forgoing the penalty, at least until other features are added.
And I don't understand the need to bump Con for the quadruped. All three base forms have the same Con. It's quite clear the designers intentions: biped for higher strength, serpentine for higher dexterity, quadruped for a balanced approach (plus quadruped gets a ton of restricted evolutions to make up for it).
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Sorry - used to thinking 'horse' and so forth, usually things on four legs are pretty tough. That's all.
But, I suppose that's what I get for not paying enough attention.
What of the other ideas? I'm thinking we could add a couple 'freebie' evolutions, since most of the abilities that come to mind are already in there.
Sorry - used to thinking 'horse' and so forth, usually things on four legs are pretty tough. That's all.
But, I suppose that's what I get for not paying enough attention.
What of the other ideas? I'm thinking we could add a couple 'freebie' evolutions, since most of the abilities that come to mind are already in there.
Freebie evolutions could work... or various spell-like abilities. There's a problem with that approach though, you're automatically limiting variations.
I suppose one could craft a large list of free evolutions for the class to pick from, like a rogue talent system or barbarian rage powers, but that is a lot of work. I'm much more in favor of adding some of the spell casting back for customization purposes. Outsiders already cast a lot of spells, so it would make sense to give them back.
I'd say either give this class 4th level spell progression like any full BAB hybrid caster, or give it a lot of unique free evolutions.
Perhaps a Spell-like ability evolution could bridge the approaches? Something like:
Spell-like evolution: choose one spell from the summoner's spell list of X level. The eidolon may cast this spell three times per day as a spell like ability with a total caster level of the eidolon's class level minus four.
EDIT: Oh yah, I like the Salamander's aura idea as an evolution.
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Gauthok, I don't like people spying on me... ;-) (Not actually accusing you of spying, fyi, just in case.)
Was just talking about something similar to this not 12 hours ago with a buddy of mine. Our idea was slightly different, however. It was more along the lines of the Summoner being something called a Shifter, basically a changeling. It's "evolution pool" would be a bit different, granting it the ability to sprout wings, turn arms into claws, etc., for x amount of time a day. Sorta like a turn into what I need a la Carnage from Spider-Man class.
GUYVER!!!!
Had to get that out of my system :P
That, or Alter's like Kazuma and Ryuho's final states :D
EDIT: or worse... Digimon Frontier...
Or Generator Gaul. That dude was cool.
I have been considering a concept like this as a prestige class -- I don't think it would quite work as a base class though (or archtype)
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Or Generator Gaul. That dude was cool.GUYVER!!!!
Had to get that out of my system :P
That, or Alter's like Kazuma and Ryuho's final states :D
EDIT: or worse... Digimon Frontier...
S-cry-Ed and Generator Gaul were both awesome shows...I guess that probably fits better than Carnage maybe, but something along those lines.
My suggestions :
A) Ignore the stats for the base forms, only worry about the movment modes, size modifiers (if you go small), and free evolutions. Roll your own stats, and put them where they belong to make sense for the character you are creating.
B) Completely ignore the summoner spell list, summoner/eidelon specific abilities. Basically, everything but the Eidelon portion.
C) Haul out the beta test eidelon progression for HD and BAB, keep the rest of the APG table. That is, 1d8 per level, +1 BAB per level.
D) Give the Eidelon HD/2 Magic Item slots appropriate to form, decided upon leveling and changing Evolution pool.
E) Modify the Transmogrify spell to be a Wizard/Sorcerer spell of the same level, but make the target 1 Eidelon (Willing).
I am still working on the "basically a summoner" version, will post a Google doc when done.
Lots of good suggestions. I like the 4th level max progression spells idea. I also think the suggestion of just using normal stats might be best. Will review others and post again as I have time, probably not till tomorrow.
I think this idea should function as a prestige class instead of a revamp. You start normally for a few levels then take a path where you merge forms completely (sounds cooler).
Like a Master Chymist for the summoner...
I'll consider writing up a Summoner prestige class and posting it as well, but what I wanted was a new class based on being the Eidolon.
I have been considering a concept like this as a prestige class -- I don't think it would quite work as a base class though (or archetype)
Why? Conceptually, or mechanically? If it's mechanically, I'd like to hear more. I'm not trying to make something unbalanced, just something that fits better what I'd like to play.
My suggestions :
A) Ignore the stats for the base forms, only worry about the movment modes, size modifiers (if you go small), and free evolutions. Roll your own stats, and put them where they belong to make sense for the character you are creating.
B) Completely ignore the summoner spell list, summoner/eidelon specific abilities. Basically, everything but the Eidelon portion.
C) Haul out the beta test eidelon progression for HD and BAB, keep the rest of the APG table. That is, 1d8 per level, +1 BAB per level.
D) Give the Eidelon HD/2 Magic Item slots appropriate to form, decided upon leveling and changing Evolution pool.
E) Modify the Transmogrify spell to be a Wizard/Sorcerer spell of the same level, but make the target 1 Eidelon (Willing).
I like A, B we were debating on (I'm partial to a paladin/ranger progression but could change my mind), C we were already doing a full BAB d10 but could change to d8 if it seems overpowered, D I'm not sure why, E I'm also not sure why.
For D, isn't there a magic item slot list for forms other than bipedal still? There was in 3.5, and I can't see why you wouldn't just use that.
For E, I'd rather include the ability to change evolutions in the class rather than hand it to another class to do for you. That never seems like a good idea to me. If anything, I'd give to Summoner, but still not a fan.
The suggestions were meant to be used as a whole.
For C, that's a typo on my part, it should have been 1d10 +1 BAB
For D, I suggest it that way because an Eidelon is so muteable, it's better to assign slots based on the evolutions taken. However, that can be very powerful, in that you could have more of certain slots than standard characters (something with 4 arms could wear four rings for example). Rather than open it wide open, allow the Eidelon to have a limited number of slots that can be changed whenever evolution points are.
For E, if you drop all the spells from the class, as I suggested, then the spell has to be added to someone elses spell list, I suggest Wizard/Sorcerer. You make it a willing only, so basically if an Eidelon wants to change evolutions between levels, he needs a friendly wizard (or UMD and a wand).
Ok, I can understand the point behind D, kind of. I think multiple arms didn't allow multiple rings in 3.5, so I doubt it does in pathfinder, but it could be that the item slot rules are open to abuse.
For E, I still don't see the point. If I want the class to have the ability to change between levels, why does that have to be a spell? Why not a 1/day class ability? If that is too often/doesn't have enough restriction, then give it a cost of some sort. Finally, why would it have to be on someone else's spell list? I'm not eliminating Summoner. The point of this exercise isn't "I don't like Summoner" but rather "I had an idea I think would be cool using the Eidolon mechanics".
That's not actually true MDT. The item slot rules are hard and fast. It doesn't matter how many necks a creature has, for example, it can only benefit from one neck-slot item at a time.
For D, I suggest it that way because an Eidelon is so muteable, it's better to assign slots based on the evolutions taken. However, that can be very powerful, in that you could have more of certain slots than standard ch
I was suggesting it as a compromise, since, you can't give boots/leg items to a serpentine, nor rings to a quadruped, etc. If you don't like the suggestion, fine.
Ohhhh, I see what you mean now. Yeah, that seems like an interesting compromise. Alternatively, you could have the magic items be worn in humanoid form, use humanoid slots, and meld into form but keep their benefit. (Same way wildshape works, if I remember right.)I was suggesting it as a compromise, since, you can't give boots/leg items to a serpentine, nor rings to a quadruped, etc. If you don't like the suggestion, fine.That's not actually true MDT. The item slot rules are hard and fast. It doesn't matter how many necks a creature has, for example, it can only benefit from one neck-slot item at a time.
For D, I suggest it that way because an Eidelon is so muteable, it's better to assign slots based on the evolutions taken. However, that can be very powerful, in that you could have more of certain slots than standard ch
Ah, see, I was under the impression the character would always be in Eidelon form, so not a human/eidelon shifter, just an eidelon.