Bard Archivist Lore Master question

[luke vyseblade]

allright so I was reading over the APG, and I noticed, that lore master for the Archivist archetype, is only a free 20 on a single knowledge check, when the bard's normal Lore master ability is free 10's and a single 20, on knowledge checks. Is this the way it's supposed to be? if this is the way the archetype plays then it really hurts the class instead of giving it another balance. can someone help me with this? help me understand the archetype

[Gruuuu]

This is generally a pretty good trade-off.
Once a day (+1/day every 6 levels beyond 2nd) is generally enough for important knowledge rolls.
Also an archivist ends up with 4 times a day as opposed to 3 a day.
A Bard with this archetype is probably going to be pumping points in knowledge skills anyway, so I really don't see the unbalance.

[Jikuu]

Hi there. I'm currently playing a level 8 Archivist. I have all my "identify monsters" knowledges (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, Religion) at 5 or 6 ranks out of a possible 8 and the rest at 1. Bardic Knowledge helps with the rest. If it's a BBEG you need to identify, pop the Take 20 ability. If you go Archivist, you should definitely have a good Intelligence to take advantage of skill points.

Recall that identifying monsters requires a check of 10 + monster's CR. If you keep up even decently rather than aggressively with your skill points, you should be able to identify monsters you'd fight most of the time, so your Naturalist ability should kick in.

The reason that Archivists lack the take 10 on Knowledge is because they gain the take 10 ability on Spellcraft.

Hope this helps.

[luke vyseblade]

jikuu thank you for addressing exactly what i was wondering about, unfortunately i would prefer to have a take 10 on knowledge checks over spellcraft. i usually play wizards and bards due mainly to knowledge (all) and i love being able to metagame using this information (it's fair and unbroken when you just remember everything) i may still play this bard as an archivist, but now i'm not sure. thanks again peace

[Grick]

James Jacobs posted in this thread about the archivist. He said maybe it's intentional that because you gain the ability early, it's OK that it's not as good. He also said to FAQ it and they'll eventually clarify.

Personally, I think it's a terrible trade off. You can't use your replacement Inspire Courage song without identifying a creature. So until your bonuses get high enough that you can ID on a 1, you could be stuck without your song for an encounter. (Or the rest of the campaign, depending on how strict your DM is about the Try Again rule!)

[Star Frost]

My problem is you give up the ability to progress as a bard (archivist). Lets say you become a loremaster at level 8: you lose access to all special abilities and instead progress in what could be described as the slowest, most gimped spells/day and spells known in the game. For what? Applicable Knowledge at best? I think its a bit underpowered. Is there something I am just missing? Some combo of abilities that can be taken in just the right order that will overcome this shortfall? If so, then that seems rather limiting in and of itself. Otherwise, some special rules might be in order...

[TGMaxMaxer]

This has been asked before, and the author stopped by to say that he meant them to get the original ability in full, in addition to the changes listed in print.

Unfortunately, so far as I know, that never made it to FAQ or errata.

Search around here, I didn't comment so I don't have a link to it.