Legendary NPCs in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


I know that Paizo has mentioned that they have intentionally left most of their NPCs unstatted so that such endeavors could be left up to the GM, that they might be able to toss some NPCs against whatever party level they required. However, looking through the setting, it seems like there are a few NPCs intended to have attained epic levels, as the things they have accomplished indicate a level of power that no one but 20+ level PCs could contend with, among them:

Baba Yaga (can keep an entire nation in a perpetual state of winter)

Tar-Baphon (killed a god)

Geb (has said dead god for his consort)

Razmir (burned a city down overnight, though I get the feeling he's not in the same league as the others on this list)

Xin (got so awesome he exploded)

Nex (made his own plane)

To me, these seem like adversaries that should challenge an entire party of 20th level character - the final challenge of non-epic play. Is this an accurate assessment? And if so, how does one go about statting them for the time being? Any suggestions?


martinaj wrote:

I know that Paizo has mentioned that they have intentionally left most of their NPCs unstatted so that such endeavors could be left up to the GM, that they might be able to toss some NPCs against whatever party level they required. However, looking through the setting, it seems like there are a few NPCs intended to have attained epic levels, as the things they have accomplished indicate a level of power that no one but 20+ level PCs could contend with, among them:

Baba Yaga (can keep an entire nation in a perpetual state of winter)

Tar-Baphon (killed a god)

Geb (has said dead god for his consort)

Razmir (burned a city down overnight, though I get the feeling he's not in the same league as the others on this list)

Xin (got so awesome he exploded)

Nex (made his own plane)

To me, these seem like adversaries that should challenge an entire party of 20th level character - the final challenge of non-epic play. Is this an accurate assessment? And if so, how does one go about statting them for the time being? Any suggestions?

Oh, I have plans for Baba Yaga and Tar-Baphon in my Falcon's Hollow campaign...and maybe a tie-in to Geb and Nex through the Tar-Baphon lore. We shall see *devilish grin*

Sovereign Court

martinaj wrote:
Baba Yaga (can keep an entire nation in a perpetual state of winter)

The vibe I get is that she's not a mortal, I'm guessing some kind of demi-god. She's not on Golarion most of the time and seems to be a plane-hopper.

martinaj wrote:
Tar-Baphon (killed a god)

He's locked away. If your players ever face him then you've blown up the world in some way.

martinaj wrote:
Geb (has said dead god for his consort)

I'd say level 20 necromancy specialist with elite stat array, x4 treasure and ghost template.

martinaj wrote:
Razmir (burned a city down overnight, though I get the feeling he's not in the same league as the others on this list)

Level 20, probably Illusionist, with x2 wealth and elite stat array.

martinaj wrote:
Xin (got so awesome he exploded)

Is very, very, very dead. Unless you're time-traveling your players won't see him.

martinaj wrote:
Nex (made his own plane)

He's trapped in the refuge, if your players did go in there they'd face another level 20 necromancer, one who has created at least one artefact.

Interesting lack of women in the big-bad league of evil gentlemen.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
martinaj wrote:

I know that Paizo has mentioned that they have intentionally left most of their NPCs unstatted so that such endeavors could be left up to the GM, that they might be able to toss some NPCs against whatever party level they required. However, looking through the setting, it seems like there are a few NPCs intended to have attained epic levels, as the things they have accomplished indicate a level of power that no one but 20+ level PCs could contend with, among them:

It does seem that Golarion isn't the Forgotten Realms, where you can't cross the street and not anger some epic level meaglomanic somewhere.

Remember that story background isn't always tied to rules mechanics, which was also true for most of the "D+D" fiction as well. The one time Tracy and Hickman stuck that close to D+D mechanics produced the worst of the Dragonlance novels.


Depends on how you look at it.

martinaj wrote:
Baba Yaga (can keep an entire nation in a perpetual state of winter)

Have to agree with GeraintElberion that it would appear she is a demi god and certainly a plane hopper. As for keeping a nation in a perpetual state of winter I think its inside the arctic circle and was in that state before she got there.

martinaj wrote:
Tar-Baphon (killed a god)

Remember it's part of Golarion lore that a god on the material plane becomes as vulnerable as any mortal. It's why they stay away.

martinaj wrote:
Geb (has said dead god for his consort)

I think the more epic part of this story would be stealing the corpse.

martinaj wrote:
Razmir (burned a city down overnight, though I get the feeling he's not in the same league as the others on this list)

Cities burn down in the River Kingdoms all the time. And anyone that says otherwise might find themselves falling down a mine shaft onto some arrows.


GeraintElberion wrote:
martinaj wrote:
Baba Yaga (can keep an entire nation in a perpetual state of winter)

The vibe I get is that she's not a mortal, I'm guessing some kind of demi-god. She's not on Golarion most of the time and seems to be a plane-hopper.

martinaj wrote:
Tar-Baphon (killed a god)

He's locked away. If your players ever face him then you've blown up the world in some way.

martinaj wrote:
Geb (has said dead god for his consort)

I'd say level 20 necromancy specialist with elite stat array, x4 treasure and ghost template.

martinaj wrote:
Razmir (burned a city down overnight, though I get the feeling he's not in the same league as the others on this list)

Level 20, probably Illusionist, with x2 wealth and elite stat array.

martinaj wrote:
Xin (got so awesome he exploded)

Is very, very, very dead. Unless you're time-traveling your players won't see him.

martinaj wrote:
Nex (made his own plane)

He's trapped in the refuge, if your players did go in there they'd face another level 20 necromancer, one who has created at least one artefact.

Interesting lack of women in the big-bad league of evil gentlemen.

Nex and Geb are most definitely epic level. Read through Legacy of Fire if you want to see some stuff they pulled off. Geb single-handedly turned a whole army into stone, that's a pretty epic feat. Nex telekinetically moved a spike the size of a castle above a colossal magic-immune creature that Geb created and promptly dropped it on its head.

Sovereign Court

Toadkiller Dog wrote:

...snip...

Nex and Geb are most definitely epic level. Read through Legacy of Fire if you want to see some stuff they pulled off. Geb single-handedly turned a whole army into stone, that's a pretty epic feat. Nex telekinetically moved a spike the size of a castle above a colossal magic-immune creature that Geb created and promptly dropped it on its head.

I'm hoping to play LoF one day so have avoided reading that one.

However, if you are running straight Pathfinder then there is no such thing as epic levels, so Nex and Geb can't be epic. It's pretty clear that Tar-Baphon is the baddest-of-the-bad in Golarion but until epci rules come out he can't be epic.

I was simply making some suggestions which might actually work with Pathfinder without turning them into unique monsters... Once epic comes out I imagine that many of these varmints will be statted-up fairly soon.

I like that most of these big names are completely, or almost completely, unreachable. Any ambitious level20 PCs looking to make a name for themselves would probably start with Razmir.


GeraintElberion wrote:

*snippity-snip*

I'm hoping to play LoF one day so have avoided reading that one.

However, if you are running straight Pathfinder then there is no such thing as epic levels, so Nex and Geb can't be epic. It's pretty clear that Tar-Baphon is the baddest-of-the-bad in Golarion but until epci rules come out he can't be epic.

I was simply making some suggestions which might actually work with Pathfinder without turning them into unique monsters... Once epic comes out I imagine that many of these varmints will be statted-up fairly soon.

I like that most of these big names are completely, or almost completely, unreachable. Any ambitious level20 PCs looking to make a name for themselves would probably start with Razmir.

This doesn't mean they're not epic level, it means that as of now they go unstatted because until epic levels are released, the game does not have the mechanics to support their power level.

(This assertion is based on my remembering a thread awhile ago where James stated that individuals like Tar-Baphon would have to be in the epic level range to be statted properly, but that there are currently no rules in place to support his power, as mentioned above.)

For other Epic level NPC's on Golarion, I would throw the name of the undead Lich-Queen Arazni into the pile, assuming its not there already. Especially if she's Geb's mistress and a former Goddess (even if a lesser one)

Sovereign Court

To make this clear I shall edit down both posts, mine and TheWarriorPoet519's.

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

However, if you are running straight Pathfinder then there is no such thing as epic levels, so Nex and Geb can't be epic. It's pretty clear that Tar-Baphon is the baddest-of-the-bad in Golarion but until epic rules come out he can't be epic.

I was simply making some suggestions which might actually work with Pathfinder without turning them into unique monsters...

This doesn't mean they're not epic level, it means that as of now they go unstatted because until epic levels are released, the game does not have the mechanics to support their power level.

The game does have mechanics to support higher power levels. That is the reason I made reference to turning them into unique monsters.

I know that as you get down a thread it can be easy to lose track of what the OP said but TheWarriorPoet519 specifically asked:

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
And if so, how does one go about statting them for the time being? Any suggestions?

I just tried to help him out.

Just to be clear.
Pathfinder is not 3.5
3.5 has epic levels.
Pathfinder does not have epic levels.
Until Pathfinder has epic play it is literally impossible for anything in the game to be epic in the 3.5 sense, although adventures can still be epic in the more familiar cultural use of the term.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

GeraintElberion wrote:


Just to be clear.
Pathfinder is not 3.5
3.5 has epic levels.
Pathfinder does not have epic levels.
Until Pathfinder has epic play it is literally impossible for anything in the game to be epic in the 3.5 sense, although adventures can still be epic in the more familiar cultural use of the term.

That is not entirely true.

The Pathfinder Core rulebook does give interim rules for epic level characters (i.e. above 20th level). It just doesn't give any special rules for classes, spells, feats, magic, etc.

The existing epic rules are on pp406-407 of the core rulebook, I'll quote this snippet:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook wrote:
you can use the following brief guidelines to continue beyond 20th level. Note that these guidelines aren’t robust enough to keep the game vibrant and interesting on their own for much longer past 20th level, but they should do in a pinch for a campaign that needs, say, 22 or 23 experience levels to wrap up. Likewise, you can use these rules to create super-powerful NPCs for 20th-level characters to face.

The rules cover:

  • XP required to advance.
  • HD, BAB and save advancement, including iterative attacks.
  • Spell slot advancement.

So, in short, there are epic rules for Pathfinder, they're just not really meant to go much beyond 20th level.


GeraintElberion wrote:

To make this clear I shall edit down both posts, mine and TheWarriorPoet519's.

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

However, if you are running straight Pathfinder then there is no such thing as epic levels, so Nex and Geb can't be epic. It's pretty clear that Tar-Baphon is the baddest-of-the-bad in Golarion but until epic rules come out he can't be epic.

I was simply making some suggestions which might actually work with Pathfinder without turning them into unique monsters...

This doesn't mean they're not epic level, it means that as of now they go unstatted because until epic levels are released, the game does not have the mechanics to support their power level.

The game does have mechanics to support higher power levels. That is the reason I made reference to turning them into unique monsters.

I know that as you get down a thread it can be easy to lose track of what the OP said but TheWarriorPoet519 specifically asked:

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
And if so, how does one go about statting them for the time being? Any suggestions?

I just tried to help him out.

Just to be clear.
Pathfinder is not 3.5
3.5 has epic levels.
Pathfinder does not have epic levels.
Until Pathfinder has epic play it is literally impossible for anything in the game to be epic in the 3.5 sense, although adventures can still be epic in the more familiar cultural use of the term.

Allow me to clarify: I didn't mean to imply that the game rules as is cannot be used to stat such entities, but rather that I am given to understand that we will not see OFFICIAL stats on any of them until after Paizo has decided how it wants to handle epic levels.

You can do whatever you like with the rules as is in your own games.


Any advice on statting Razmir specifically? I'm starting to formulate an arc using the Pathfinder Adventure Paths as a guideline - six extended adventures each designed to carry the PCs forwards about 3 levels. It begins in the River Kingdoms, and ideally is going to end with them squaring off against Razmir on those oh-so-holy stairs. I'm thinking he could be reasonably cast as a level 20 sorcerer, but does anyone have any recommendations on bloodline or specific spells (I'm leaning towards "Destined," but it seems so boring).


martinaj wrote:
Any advice on statting Razmir specifically? I'm starting to formulate an arc using the Pathfinder Adventure Paths as a guideline - six extended adventures each designed to carry the PCs forwards about 3 levels. It begins in the River Kingdoms, and ideally is going to end with them squaring off against Razmir on those oh-so-holy stairs. I'm thinking he could be reasonably cast as a level 20 sorcerer, but does anyone have any recommendations on bloodline or specific spells (I'm leaning towards "Destined," but it seems so boring).

To mess with their heads, you could make it Celestial.

Maybe that's where he got this obsession with Divinity to begin with. It could also really mess with the player's expectations.

"He's mortal... Right?"


Ooooh, I like it.


martinaj wrote:
Ooooh, I like it.

"Wait... Why does the False God have glowing wings? And why does that light around him look suspiciously divine?"

Now that I think about it, I think Im going to run with this interpretation of Razmir, myself; a deluded, insane scion of angels convinced of his own divinity and trying to gather enough power to himself to allow him to "go home" whilst raging against the Gods for not allowing him to "return" to them.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

I think it would be fair to include Arazni in this list, as well as some of the Runelords we have mentioned so far. The alchemist who made the Sun Orchid Elixir (whose name I forget at the moment) is also extremely powerful and in this league.

Incidentally, Nex is not a necromancer, but rather an extremely powerful generalist wizard. Necromancy is Geb's bag.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Choral the Conqueror from Brevoy is another character I would put in this power range, though he is not presently around. The legendary Khiben-Sald of ancient Vudra would also qualify, as would many of the ancient pharaohs of Osirion.


Erik Mona wrote:

I think it would be fair to include Arazni in this list, as well as some of the Runelords we have mentioned so far. The alchemist who made the Sun Orchid Elixir (whose name I forget at the moment) is also extremely powerful and in this league.

Incidentally, Nex is not a necromancer, but rather an extremely powerful generalist wizard. Necromancy is Geb's bag.

The alchemist is named as 'Artokus' in the Thuvia entry in the first edition Campaign Setting. Don't know if they've changed it in the revision... :)


For those of us who like to keep some things secret so we can surprise our players I think the spoiler tag should cover several things in this thread.


FWIW, I tend to interpret these legendary characters literally. As in they may literally BE legends and not have existed at all, or their powers and deeds may have been greatly exaggerated over time, or actually be the work of many people not just one.


cibet44 wrote:

FWIW, I tend to interpret these legendary characters literally. As in they may literally BE legends and not have existed at all, or their powers and deeds may have been greatly exaggerated over time, or actually be the work of many people not just one.

Interesting; do you take the same interpretations with deities that took the test of the starstone? I say this not to criticize, but out of honest curiosity about how you run with it, as this interpretation can have a pretty big effect on the construction of Golarion's history.

Contributor

From Tian Xia, Setsuna Kaga would probably qualify as well.


TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:
cibet44 wrote:

FWIW, I tend to interpret these legendary characters literally. As in they may literally BE legends and not have existed at all, or their powers and deeds may have been greatly exaggerated over time, or actually be the work of many people not just one.

Interesting; do you take the same interpretations with deities that took the test of the starstone? I say this not to criticize, but out of honest curiosity about how you run with it, as this interpretation can have a pretty big effect on the construction of Golarion's history.

I interpret the starstone as legend as well. I think of it in the same way very revered religious artifacts would be interpreted today. Some people believe the Ark of the Covenant is a real thing that can or maybe has been found and has magically properties. Some people believe the same things about the Western Wall. Many people regularly fulfill haji by traveling to Mecca. Do these items or places actually have magical or divine properties? Who knows, believe what you want.

In my Golarian the Starstone is the same. Yes some believe Aroden passed the test of the Starstone and rose to divinity but just as many (if not more) believe the Starstone is just a very large piece of gold or mithral that Absalom guards and mines for wealth or that it doesn't exist at all. Aroden, Cayden, Norgorber all these beings are worshiped in my Golarian as people today would worship John The Baptist or Mother Teresa or the Dali Lama. Are Mother Teresa or the Dali Lama or John The Baptist "deities"? To some they are but to most they are just people that made great sacrifices or accomplished great things (for those that believe the things they did were great).

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