Hi!
Would it be feasible to create 1-3 level "race-classes" for some of the old "+1 ECL" races, like the aasimar, tiefling, gnoll, goliath, etc.?
Basically a class that would provide racial benefits instead of class benefits, but would provide some stackability with regular classes' abilities, like spellcasting, minimum Fighter Level, etc. etc.
The reason that level adjustments existed at all was to apply a penalty to races stronger than the standard races. It wasn't a good system because most races simply weren't strong enough to be worth their penalty at higher levels.
I'd recommend you do something simple, like replace each level adjustment with racial hit dice appropriate to the race. Spread the racial bonuses out over the levels so that they're roughly on par with comparatively leveled characters.
Now, this is already an improvement over the original level adjustments. These racial levels provide feats, skills, and hit points where-as before you just got a penalty to XP. Be very wary of having any of this stack with spellcasting and/or feat acquisition.
If I were to do anything at all, it would be allowing half your racial hit dice (rounded down, of course) to be applied to caster level and/or fighter feats. This bonus cannot exceed the character's current levels in said class.
If it's an ECL +1 race like aasimar and tiefling, I'd just treat it like any other race. That's been the general recommendation for them. So a human fighter, 1st level, might have a 1st level aasimar cleric with them, no problems. Pathfinder races are more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts, at least the core races are, enough that there really isn't a big difference between the core races and races with +1 level adjustments.
If the race has more than a +1 adjustment but no racial hit dice, you might require all initial levels to be in NPC classes until the character's level surpasses their level adjustment. So you'd need to take 3 levels in NPC classes before you could take a PC class if you were a deep gnome (+3 LA). Don't remember who on the boards suggested that, but it's an interesting idea.
If the race has racial hit die, such as the gnoll, I'd go with what the Bestiary says. Though Sean's ideas above me are good ones too.
Hi!
Would it be feasible to create 1-3 level "race-classes" for some of the old "+1 ECL" races, like the aasimar, tiefling, gnoll, goliath, etc.?
Basically a class that would provide racial benefits instead of class benefits, but would provide some stackability with regular classes' abilities, like spellcasting, minimum Fighter Level, etc. etc.
Do you even need to do this with the old +1 ECL races? I mean with the Pathfinder racial updates are not most of the old +1's pretty much equivalent to the standard races now?
I know my ref allows all the +1's as even with the Pathfinder core races now, then again she does like a powerful game so take that into account.
But even so I haven't really seen any +1 race from the old set that is MORE powerful than any of the existing pathfinder ones.
I was thinking along the lines of a planetouched template/class that could make tiefling-orcs, aasimar-elves, earth-elemental gnomes, powerfully built humans, etc. etc.
If the plan for your campaign is that everyone gets an ECL, I'd just give it away.
An interesting idea I've heard somewhere on the forum was: For each racial HD the character has to take an NPC level: Warrior, Expert or Adept (and that replaces racial HD) - So they get the BAB, HP, Saves and Skills. But miss out on class abilities.
IME, a +1 ECL isn't worth keeping track of. Whatever advantages such a PC gains at earlier levels quickly fade to negligible.
IME, a +1 ECL isn't worth keeping track of. Whatever advantages such a PC gains at earlier levels quickly fade to negligible.
In many instances I agree. Races that gain spell-like abilities & small bonuses to natural armor aren't worth fretting about after levels 6-8. Magic items overcome any boons they might have and the party ends up roughly the same. Early on it's important to recognize the difference, especially for the sake of the players.
However, creatures with large racial bonuses to stats (especially primary stats) will never be negligible. Because of the way the ability scores work in 3PP a bonus of as little as +2 above a standard race will leave you ahead of your allies all the way to 20. I'm not saying that it's worth a +1 ECL, but it's worth mentioning.
The worst thing about it is that a level adjustment was such a good idea in theory, but the power scale is so chaotic as the levels increase that's its nearly impossible to gauge when a level adjustment becomes moot without just "eyeing" it.
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Off hand I'd say most you listed would be fine; the Gnoll and Goliath "less so", but they can be adjusted. +2 to 2 stats, -2 to one, if they have SR bring it down to 5 + level a la dwarf.
Really the issue becomes if you start being able to get +4 (or worse). So I'd make Goliath +2 Str +2 Con -2 Wis and keep all abilities. Gnolls would be slightly shorter (no large) and +2 Wis +2 Dex -2 Cha and still keep abilities. Aasmir would gain -2 Int, Tiefling can be the same. Much easier.
I was thinking along the lines of a planetouched template/class that could make tiefling-orcs, aasimar-elves, earth-elemental gnomes, powerfully built humans, etc. etc.
Easy fixes:
1: Have the character take 1 level of Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Elemental etc. bloodline sorcerer. This will give them some odd planar traits like claws and some magical abilities that reflect their unusual heritage.
2: Make up traits that would give them minor planar features (or even use existing traits---just say that, say, a magical talent comes from having planar blood).
3. Give them the fiendish or celestial template or a simplified version thereof.
Tangentially/generally speaking, remember (as others have noted) that ECL doesn't exist in Pathfinder; it's an artifact of 3.x that's not really used any longer. Tieflings and Aasimar are actually plain old Add-a-class-to-give-it-hit-dice races just like humans or half-orcs with no adjustment--they're just not CORE races. The official guideline to more powerful races (like drow nobles) is pretty much to fudge their CR as it best makes sense to the GM.
Check out the Council of Thieves guide. It's free for download on this web site somewhere. They have a trait that balances out tieflings.
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You may want to keep your eyes open for an upcoming release from Tricky Owlbear ... I wrote a piece for them dealing with Apprentice Level Characters that also addresses more or less this exact topic as a set of optional rules.
I think it is coming out later this month, in fact.
FYI
The Apprentice Level Characters piece I mentioned is out now.
Check it out :)
if you're using a point system for stats it might be an easy balance just to make the higher ecl stuff cost a little.
if you're using a point system for stats it might be an easy balance just to make the higher ecl stuff cost a little.
Do you mean if the other characters are using 25 point buy, the +1 ECL would use 20 points instead? That's awesome!!!!!
if you're using a point system for stats it might be an easy balance just to make the higher ecl stuff cost a little.Do you mean if the other characters are using 25 point buy, the +1 ECL would use 20 points instead? That's awesome!!!!!
If I recall, some of the documentation for E6 provided this as a variant to allow ECL races within it's very limited level range. Pathfinder & 3.5 are a little different in their point buy system, so it's only an idea. I can see each ECL being worth 4 points on a point buy system, and you could still impose an artificial limit to stats: no single stat above 20 with racials.
If I recall, some of the documentation for E6 provided this as a variant to allow ECL races within it's very limited level range. Pathfinder & 3.5 are a little different in their point buy system, so it's only an idea. I can see each ECL being worth 4 points on a point buy system, and you could still impose an artificial limit to stats: no single stat above 20 with racials.if you're using a point system for stats it might be an easy balance just to make the higher ecl stuff cost a little.Do you mean if the other characters are using 25 point buy, the +1 ECL would use 20 points instead? That's awesome!!!!!
i didn't realize that bit was in there, makes e6 better
if you're using a point system for stats it might be an easy balance just to make the higher ecl stuff cost a little.Do you mean if the other characters are using 25 point buy, the +1 ECL would use 20 points instead? That's awesome!!!!!
Yes that is what i meant.