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TES V: Skyrim (forget Hunted!!)


Video Games

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The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Trailer

Yeah, this is where my money is going next year.


Late next year thought, which means I still have a chance to purchase and play Fallout:NV before it comes out. ;)


I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion


ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion

What was so terrible about Oblivion?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Well, time to start saving up for a new computer...


Xabulba wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion
What was so terrible about Oblivion?

I loved Oblivian, really did.


Rhothaerill wrote:
Late next year thought, which means I still have a chance to purchase and play Fallout:NV before it comes out. ;)

If you're picking up the PC version, go through Steam whenever they've got some sort of sale active; the retail disc just contains a Steam installer.


Necromancer wrote:
Rhothaerill wrote:
Late next year thought, which means I still have a chance to purchase and play Fallout:NV before it comes out. ;)
If you're picking up the PC version, go through Steam whenever they've got some sort of sale active; the retail disc just contains a Steam installer.

That's my plan. Unfortunately I missed the Black Friday sale as it was $10 cheaper than the current price.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xabulba wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion
What was so terrible about Oblivion?

Terrible plot, terrible engine, boring side quests, the worst implimention of level scaling imaginable, and they took everything cool and unique about the setting and turned it into Ye Olde Britishe Land. No point in dungeon delving due to how the level scaling worked, no point in doing the plot due to how terrible it was, no point in exploring due to how boring and samey the setting was. No point in playing the game.


ProfessorCirno wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion
What was so terrible about Oblivion?
Terrible plot, terrible engine, boring side quests, the worst implimention of level scaling imaginable, and they took everything cool and unique about the setting and turned it into Ye Olde Britishe Land. No point in dungeon delving due to how the level scaling worked, no point in doing the plot due to how terrible it was, no point in exploring due to how boring and samey the setting was. No point in playing the game.

I didn't think it was that bad but you did cover all of it's weak points. But any Elder Scroll game is anemic compared to Morrowind.


ProfessorCirno wrote:
Terrible plot, terrible engine, boring side quests, the worst implimention of level scaling imaginable, and they took everything cool and unique about the setting and turned it into Ye Olde Britishe Land. No point in dungeon delving due to how the level scaling worked, no point in doing the plot due to how terrible it was, no point in exploring due to how boring and samey the setting was. No point in playing the game.

Your criticisms are mostly fair except for two things:

1) Mods eliminate almost all of the problems you mention and improve the game immeasurably. That doesn't excuse the creators for screwing up so royally, but the game is now actually fun to play, the level scaling is gone, a lot more lore books and things are dropped in from earlier ELDER SCROLLS games, the technical bugs are mostly exorcised and the levelling system now makes sense.

Obviously if you're playing a console version you're screwed, but PC owners now have an excellent RPG to play.

2) Even in vanilla, the Dark Brotherhood quest line (created by the guys behind the THIEF games) is deliciously twisted and evil. And some of the side-quests are inventive and entertaining, like the one where you go inside the painting.

But yeah, overall OBLIVION is not the best RPG around. Even using the same, flawed engine, FALLOUT 3 is a much stronger game with a far better combat system (though still not a flawless title by any measure).


ProfessorCirno wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion
What was so terrible about Oblivion?
Terrible plot, terrible engine, boring side quests, the worst implimention of level scaling imaginable, and they took everything cool and unique about the setting and turned it into Ye Olde Britishe Land. No point in dungeon delving due to how the level scaling worked, no point in doing the plot due to how terrible it was, no point in exploring due to how boring and samey the setting was. No point in playing the game.

and let's not forget the ending of the main quest, where you get to watch a cinematic sequence featuring NPC vs bad guy...most frustrating moment in gaming ever!


ProfessorCirno wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion
What was so terrible about Oblivion?
Terrible plot, terrible engine, boring side quests, the worst implimention of level scaling imaginable, and they took everything cool and unique about the setting and turned it into Ye Olde Britishe Land. No point in dungeon delving due to how the level scaling worked, no point in doing the plot due to how terrible it was, no point in exploring due to how boring and samey the setting was. No point in playing the game.

As for the TES:Skyrim engine...a quick read.


Greyblade wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion
What was so terrible about Oblivion?
Terrible plot, terrible engine, boring side quests, the worst implimention of level scaling imaginable, and they took everything cool and unique about the setting and turned it into Ye Olde Britishe Land. No point in dungeon delving due to how the level scaling worked, no point in doing the plot due to how terrible it was, no point in exploring due to how boring and samey the setting was. No point in playing the game.
and let's not forget the ending of the main quest, where you get to watch a cinematic sequence featuring NPC vs bad guy...most frustrating moment in gaming ever!

Morrowind's plot: You start off as a grunt spy asking random people questions in an investigation and eventually work your way up to being the reincarnation of a messiah figure, uniting the Dunmer together, and finishing it off by duking it out in the heart of a volcano with an insane demi-god you created in order to stop him from activating a sky-scraper sized robot and turning it into a new synthetic god who will bring about a great infection of the Divine Disease.

Oblivion: You become the heir to the throne's errand boy in a quest to stop a very generic bad guy from breaking through the dimensional wall so he can....wreck stuff. He's pretty big and you see him at the very end but you just run past him so somebody else can handle it. Go errand boy!

Liberty's Edge

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Oblivion: You become the heir to the throne's errand boy in a quest to stop a very generic bad guy from breaking through the dimensional wall so he can....wreck stuff. He's pretty big and you see him at the very end but you just run past him so somebody else can handle it. Go errand boy!

Yeah, but it's still no Dragon Age: Origins.

Spoiler:
I couldn't stand the constant ego stroking of a nearly useless character: Alistair... who is heir to the throne, who can bang the hot NPCs, can have orgies with female PCs AND male PCs yet remain completely straight, who gets to be a Grey Warden also. All to sacrifice yourself if you want to do the decent thing! >_<


Studpuffin wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:

Oblivion: You become the heir to the throne's errand boy in a quest to stop a very generic bad guy from breaking through the dimensional wall so he can....wreck stuff. He's pretty big and you see him at the very end but you just run past him so somebody else can handle it. Go errand boy!

Yeah, but it's still no Dragon Age: Origins.

** spoiler omitted **

Good news: Dragon Age 2 will be even more terrible, have less of a plot, more annoying NPCs, and is less then half the size of DA:O.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber
ProfessorCirno wrote:


Good news: Dragon Age 2 will be even more terrible, have less of a plot, more annoying NPCs, and is less then half the size of DA:O.

Do you mean the length of the game will be dramatically shortened, or just the area of the game world you will adventure in? If the former, I would be very disappointed. If that's the case, can you cite your source? Thanks.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I missed out on Fallout 3, but I really really hope they work out their Uncanny Valley issues from TES 4 before 5 gets well underway.

Those faces....

Also, TES 5 better have an entire quest line dedicated to the torment of the Adoring Fan. I just can't murder him enoSTOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM! YOU'VE VIOLATED THE LAW! PAY THE COURT A FINE OR SERVE YOUR SENTENCE!


BenS wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:


Good news: Dragon Age 2 will be even more terrible, have less of a plot, more annoying NPCs, and is less then half the size of DA:O.

Do you mean the length of the game will be dramatically shortened, or just the area of the game world you will adventure in? If the former, I would be very disappointed. If that's the case, can you cite your source? Thanks.

DA:O was 20 gigs large.

DA 2 will be seven.

Liberty's Edge

ProfessorCirno wrote:
BenS wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:


Good news: Dragon Age 2 will be even more terrible, have less of a plot, more annoying NPCs, and is less then half the size of DA:O.

Do you mean the length of the game will be dramatically shortened, or just the area of the game world you will adventure in? If the former, I would be very disappointed. If that's the case, can you cite your source? Thanks.

DA:O was 20 gigs large.

DA 2 will be seven.

Haters gonna hate, but seven gigs of anything might be better than DA:O.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber

Well, I guess it'd be a smaller game anyway, since they did away w/ the various origin stories and all the branches that cropped up throughout the game depending on which one you chose.

I enjoyed DA: O but that's cool if you didn't. I don't get to play many CRPG's any longer, since the PS 2 group of JPRPG's dried up (and I refuse to play on a tiny screen, like a PSP), and I don't have a PC (no Witcher for me, sadly).

Lantern Lodge

Point in fact, though, you shouldn't have to buy or upgrade your PC to play the game. If the games are going to be on multiple systems, then they should be good on all of those systems. The same goes for modding. You shouldn't have to mod the game in order to make it better. It should have been developed properly to start.

Yes, I love Oblivion but it is worse than Morrowind when it shouldn't have been - mods or not. The point of a sequel is to expand upon and improve its predecessors - not be worse. (Milking the kicense is always an aspect it should do as well - from a corporate viewpoint.)


Severed Ronin wrote:

Point in fact, though, you shouldn't have to buy or upgrade your PC to play the game. If the games are going to be on multiple systems, then they should be good on all of those systems. The same goes for modding. You shouldn't have to mod the game in order to make it better. It should have been developed properly to start.

Yes, I love Oblivion but it is worse than Morrowind when it shouldn't have been - mods or not. The point of a sequel is to expand upon and improve its predecessors - not be worse. (Milking the kicense is always an aspect it should do as well - from a corporate viewpoint.)

All true, but the fact is that OBLIVION is indeed superior to MORROWIND in two key respects. Firstly, it is more approachable and easier to start with a clear objective and path from the outset. MORROWIND dumps you with a very vague objective to fulfil and lets you get on with it. If you follow the logical quest path, you'll die about three quests into the game with no forewarning (as you need to be much higher in level to deal with it). If you go off and do side-quests, its trial and error to find good quests for your level. Secondly, and somewhat tritely, OBLIVION looks far better and distinctly less brown (even if MORROWIND's actual design is stronger and more interesting).

MORROWIND is indeed the far more interesting game with a superior main quest (and without the level scaling that makes high-level OBLIVION utterly hilarious to play with its glass armour-equipped bandits and full plate-wearing goblins) but it's also rather more demanding of the player, particularly the casual player Bethesda have decided to go after with OBLIVION and FO3.


Werthead wrote:
without the level scaling that makes high-level OBLIVION utterly hilarious to play with its glass armour-equipped bandits and full plate-wearing goblins

Yeah, you'd think those bandits would wise up and sell their armor. Then they'd have enough money to buy houses in some of the cities instead of living in tents. ;)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

ProfessorCirno wrote:
BenS wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:


Good news: Dragon Age 2 will be even more terrible, have less of a plot, more annoying NPCs, and is less then half the size of DA:O.

Do you mean the length of the game will be dramatically shortened, or just the area of the game world you will adventure in? If the former, I would be very disappointed. If that's the case, can you cite your source? Thanks.

DA:O was 20 gigs large.

DA 2 will be seven.

Oh thank GOD. I need to get another memory card for my computer, but at least I can wait for a while longer. Whew.

Also, out of curosity, are you a Touhou player, Professor?


Sect wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
BenS wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:


Good news: Dragon Age 2 will be even more terrible, have less of a plot, more annoying NPCs, and is less then half the size of DA:O.

Do you mean the length of the game will be dramatically shortened, or just the area of the game world you will adventure in? If the former, I would be very disappointed. If that's the case, can you cite your source? Thanks.

DA:O was 20 gigs large.

DA 2 will be seven.

Oh thank GOD. I need to get another memory card for my computer, but at least I can wait for a while longer. Whew.

Also, out of curosity, are you a Touhou player, Professor?

Not a very good one, but yes :p


That teaser trailer sells me from Max Von Sydow's voice alone. Hope he has a voice in the actual game.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ProfessorCirno wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
I wonder if it'll be as terrible as Oblivion
What was so terrible about Oblivion?
Terrible plot, terrible engine, boring side quests, the worst implimention of level scaling imaginable, and they took everything cool and unique about the setting and turned it into Ye Olde Britishe Land. No point in dungeon delving due to how the level scaling worked, no point in doing the plot due to how terrible it was, no point in exploring due to how boring and samey the setting was. No point in playing the game.

+1

I tried playing through the game, but the story and the world was incredibly dull. Also, there's something wrong when I have as tough a time killing a bandit at level 15 than I do at level 1.

In contrast, the world, mythology, races, characters etc. of Dragon Age were far more engaging and unique.

Personally, Bioware > Bethesda for me.


Cesare wrote:
Personally, Bioware > Bethesda for me.

They set out to do different types of games so a direct comparison really doesn't work.

Dragon Age sets you up as the hero from the very start, and you really aren't given any choice in the matter. In than leads you, the hero, on your quest. Aside from a few side quests to help your companions or other people in the game out, you have your mission, and that's the focus; even the side quests eventually fold back into the main mission. I've never played their Star Wars games, but from what I have seen and heard, they are very similar in their focus.

The Elder Scroll Series is setup as to be a world that your character is just one of many people in. There is a destiny there, if you choose to follow it, but you are by no means required to do so, and even if you do, there is nothing to force you to do so to the exclusion of all else. I personally preferred Morrowind to Oblivion, for game mechanic reasons, but both are very good, open ended stories.

These differences mean that the two games employ different mechanics to achieve their goals. Dragon Age has a world map and you move from one area to the next, generally ignoring everything in between. The game builds specific encounters with specific enemies. The Elder Scrolls takes a lot more time to fill in the entire world, and as a result, has to have a way of dealing with the character's level wherever they go and whatever they do. While leveling the creatures and NPCs at a similar rate is not perfect, it is probably as good as anything else they could have come up with to replicate a fluid, ever changing world.


Well, seeing that it's pretty stupid to start factionalising about computer RPGs when there are so few good ones these days, I still have to say that the Elder Scrolls series has not been good to me.

Arena. I beat that game pretty early on by finding a mega sword randomly. I played it through, and enjoyed the... ehum... massive variation in quests. Hey, you could even ask NPCs about the way somewhere! Imagine that! And you could... um, no, that was it, really.

Bugg... Daggerfall. For its time, it was a revelation. I loved every minute of it... for a few hours. After that, the dungeons went pretty stale for JUST being random. Void rangering was absurd. Level scaling was a central complaint. And oh, the HUMANITY what bugs there were. Not to mention: Level scaling made it so that you wanted your primary skills to be those you were certain NEVER would see use. If you upped your primary skills, you gained a level, meaning harder resistance. Since your combat ability related directly to skills, this is just so unbelievably stupid.

Morrowind. This is, and will remain, the flagship of the series. It did try to transcend being just a map, and in some ways it did. With some modding, you could get memorable experiences. Even so: The birds, I ask? A nondescript crab being the ultimate shop in the game? And if people are complaining about faces in Oblivion being in uncanny valley, this game had faces in R'lyeh valley.

Oblivion. Ahhhh, now, with huge computer power available, surely Bethesda will manage something truly awesome, something far beyond what Morrowind was? Er. No. They kept the level scaling, even after testing it out on Morrowind and its expansion packs. Operation Foot Chainsaw continues...

I have tried these games, I fought the good fight, I have them all and I REALLY wanted to like them.

But they never liked me. =(


sunshadow21 wrote:
Cesare wrote:
Personally, Bioware > Bethesda for me.

They set out to do different types of games so a direct comparison really doesn't work.

Dragon Age sets you up as the hero from the very start, and you really aren't given any choice in the matter. In than leads you, the hero, on your quest. Aside from a few side quests to help your companions or other people in the game out, you have your mission, and that's the focus; even the side quests eventually fold back into the main mission. I've never played their Star Wars games, but from what I have seen and heard, they are very similar in their focus.

The Elder Scroll Series is setup as to be a world that your character is just one of many people in. There is a destiny there, if you choose to follow it, but you are by no means required to do so, and even if you do, there is nothing to force you to do so to the exclusion of all else. I personally preferred Morrowind to Oblivion, for game mechanic reasons, but both are very good, open ended stories.

These differences mean that the two games employ different mechanics to achieve their goals. Dragon Age has a world map and you move from one area to the next, generally ignoring everything in between. The game builds specific encounters with specific enemies. The Elder Scrolls takes a lot more time to fill in the entire world, and as a result, has to have a way of dealing with the character's level wherever they go and whatever they do. While leveling the creatures and NPCs at a similar rate is not perfect, it is probably as good as anything else they could have come up with to replicate a fluid, ever changing world.

Well, an ability to tell how dangerous something is is what all the MMORPGs have done.


I'm with Sissyl, by making everything scalable Bethesda removed any feeling of danger in wandering into an unknown cave or ruin. In Morrowwind I loved the fact that if you go into the wrong place or attack somebody you shouldn't you would die very quickly. In Oblivion and Fallout you could at first level kill or outrun anything the game tossed at you. The one exception is 'old lonely' in Fallout.

I still prefer the openness of the Bethesda games compaired to the multi-rail system of Dragon Age.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber

Personally I'm an unabashed Bioware fanboy. I loved both Dragon Age games (and I'm in a minority who actually prefers the second game it seems). Mass Effect 3 is up there as my most anticipated game of this year.

Other than that it's Arkham Asylum and Red Dead Redemption that have really impressed me in the last couple of years.

Fallout 3 and the Elder Scrolls series haven't really done it for me. I like a solid story with decent drive to it rather than exploring a world which happens to have a story in there somewhere if you are prepared to look hard enough. You have to work for your victory in the Elder Scrolls!

Some people like the expansive nature of the world and the myriad possibilities that go along with it. I just got lost and then eaten by a wolf. It seems my character was less Aragorn, more Little Red Riding Hood :). That's not to say the game is bad, far from it, it's just not my kind of thing.

I'm more eager to see the New Arkham Asylum game and LA Noire. Both of which look more like the thing I like to play.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Just now started paying attention to it. Haven't read up on the gameplay details yet, but I pray ES4-style scaling is out, for serious.

Also, faces are far less nightmare-inspiring now. The orc faces have really improved if that one screenshot holds true for the lot of them.

But for heavens sake please let the level/scale system be less borked...


I don't know what to think of Skyrim yet.

If it has that total crap monster scaling that Oblivion did, though, I'm out. That destroyed Oblivion, AFAIC.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm buying Skyrim- how else will I find the next chapter of 'The Lusty Arogonian Maid'?


I enjoyed "Morrowind", despite the fact that my Wood Elf Assassin was gimped by craptastic archery.(model, gameplay, everything bow & arrow, etc.) However she did accel at stabbing enemies repeatedly with a set of paralyzation daggers... as my friend playing what was essentially a Briton(sp?) Barbarian, pointed and mocked my medieval serial killer. Lucky for him it's single player, I could paralyze through Daedric armor even if it does take 40-50 stabs to kill the guy, lol.

"Oblivion" changed the archery gameplay, making it something akin to the "Thief" series of games by Eidos, absolutely amazing. I don't think the sneak system was changed, but it was also similar to "Thief". Other than that it played just like "Morrowind", but prettier IMO. The main story/quest started to bore me after I closed a half dozen or so demon gates and still had that many more to go... Zzzzzz.

Playing "Fall Out 3:GotYE" right now. ($10 during Steam Summer Camp event) Enjoying it quite a bit. Something of a learning curve when it comes to Perks (aka Feats), some of them are completely useless or have little impact on the game. (ex: Swift Learner) That said, I still went out and bought "Fall Out:NV" ($20 Best Buy) so that I can play it once I'm finished "Fall Out 3's" DLC add-ons. One nitpick, out of 35 some hours of play is still a pretty damn good game IMO. The V.A.T.S. system (selected aiming bullet-time) reminds me of the slow-motion kills in "Manhunt", a good thing for those who enjoy excessive violence.

I look forward to "Skyrim", but will likely wait until it also goes on sale. Not a big deal to play single player games 1-2 years after the fact, not missing out on anything. I'm much more into fantasy than sci-fi, but having played the entire Elder Scrolls series (Daggerfall on) "Fall Out 3" is a nice change of pace, if for nothing else the modern weapons.

My next investment is "Dead Island", hoping it will be at least half as good as "Oblivion" or "Fall Out 3" with a touch of "L4D", 4-player co-op will be nice. Guess I'll find out in a month.

Also looking forward to "Torchlight 2", for those unfamiliar the first was essentially a very impressive "Diablo 2" single player clone. The second will be adding co-op play. Who the hell knows when "Diablo 3" is coming, not holding my breath, lol. Also patiently waiting for the "Assassin's Creed" series to go on sale after playing the demo of the first.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Arnwyn wrote:
If it has that total crap monster scaling that Oblivion did, though, I'm out. That destroyed Oblivion, AFAIC.

It's apparently going to be closer to the Bethesda Fallouts. An area scales to your level when you first enter it and remains that way throughout the game, I think. They've at least confirmed that Oblivion scaling is dead and gone.

Just saw the Dark Elf screenshot. Elves were probably the worst offenders for face quality in Oblivion, but it looks like at least one of them has greatly improved.


Mikaze wrote:
Arnwyn wrote:
If it has that total crap monster scaling that Oblivion did, though, I'm out. That destroyed Oblivion, AFAIC.
It's apparently going to be closer to the Bethesda Fallouts.

Okay, that is definitely more promising.


Arnwyn wrote:
Okay, that is definitely more promising.

I imagine I'll still buy the collector's edition and wait to actually play it until the equivalent of FCOM is generated by the major modders.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Just saw the 20 Faces sheets for all the races.

Orcs look fantastic.

Elves are greatly improved over Oblivion's. Wood Elves in particular. They all have a little bit more in the way of alien features now.

Not sure how well Argonians and Khajit are going to emote, they both look more like their respective animals now. Maybe they'll have other "tells" to watch out for when gauging their reactions.

They mostly look like they've avoided the uncanny valley the Oblivion lived in, but seeing them in motion is going to be the real trick. Still, it has to be better than ES IV. Because damn, some of those faces were downright nightmare inducing.


I saw the female humans and they are utterly hideous. What's even worse is that the rendering has glaring flaws. If you notice, it highlights the edges of polygons on pronounced angles on the skin, such as on the nose. You can't unsee it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

suddenly realizes he hasn't paid much attention to the humans at all

Really that bad? (coming off of Oblivion that is)


It looks good compared to Oblivion...

Until you look at just about any other game this year.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So who else is picking this up Friday?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CapeCodRPGer wrote:
So who else is picking this up Friday?

I almost never buy games on release, but I'm keeping an eye on reviews and may pick it up eventually if it looks good and isn't too buggy.


CapeCodRPGer wrote:
So who else is picking this up Friday?

<----- :)

Its already half paid for. I might pass by there later to finish paying for it and pre-order the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO.


CapeCodRPGer wrote:
So who else is picking this up Friday?

For myself, Thursday Midnight release. So technically Friday.

Sovereign Court

<------------ One for me
One for the --------> BF

Sczarni

CapeCodRPGer wrote:
So who else is picking this up Friday?

Thursday midnight release :) though I can't play it till Friday afternoon. Stupid responsibility...

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