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Flight, Hover and full-round attacks


Rules Questions

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Qadira

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

One of my players decided to play a raptoran character (Races of the Wild), and we're trying to decide whether he should be able to get full-round attacks from the air when hovering. This, of course, depends on whether hover is considered a free action or a move action. And I can't find anywhere where this is clarified. Also, by the 3.5 SRD, a flying creature with only Average maneuverability could not fly straight up, but could only ascend at a maximum 60 degree angle. Now, there are varying opinions on whether the 3.5 SRD remains in play where the Pathfinder rules don't specifically contradict them (the whole backwards compatability thing suggests that it is still in play). So are movement restrictions like that still applicable, or are they totally done away with. And last question, when a flying character is engaged in aerial combat with another flying creature, or a hovering creature is engaged in melee with a ground-based creature, should the flying/hovering creature be able to make a 5-foot step in the air as a free action, just as one would do on the ground?

Grand Lodge

Nightwish wrote:
One of my players decided to play a raptoran character (Races of the Wild), and we're trying to decide whether he should be able to get full-round attacks from the air when hovering. This, of course, depends on whether hover is considered a free action or a move action. And I can't find anywhere where this is clarified.

A Fly check is not an action. edit: If you don't want to move, you don't have to. If you succeed in your check to hover at the end of your turn, you remain flying even though you didn't move half your speed, otherwise you stall and start falling.

Nightwish wrote:
Also, by the 3.5 SRD, a flying creature with only Average maneuverability could not fly straight up, but could only ascend at a maximum 60 degree angle. Now, there are varying opinions on whether the 3.5 SRD remains in play where the Pathfinder rules don't specifically contradict them (the whole backwards compatability thing suggests that it is still in play). So are movement restrictions like that still applicable, or are they totally done away with.

The Fly skill rules apply unless they're ambiguous. In this case it's not hard to conclude that if the designers meant "Fly up at an angle between 45 and 60 degrees" they would have said so.

Nightwish wrote:
And last question, when a flying character is engaged in aerial combat with another flying creature, or a hovering creature is engaged in melee with a ground-based creature, should the flying/hovering creature be able to make a 5-foot step in the air as a free action, just as one would do on the ground?

You can take a 5-foot step with any listed speed you have, unless it would cost more than one square of movement (for example, you can't fly upwards as a 5-foot step since you move at half speed). edit: Just as on the ground, you can't take a 5-foot step if you make any other movement in the round, so presuming your fly speed is more than 10 feet, you would have to make a check to keep flying. Interestingly, this means you are not hovering, so the DC is lower.

Qadira

Starglim wrote:

A Fly check is not an action. edit: If you don't want to move, you don't have to. If you succeed in your check to hover at the end of your turn, you remain flying even though you didn't move half your speed, otherwise you stall and start falling.

I'm not quite sure I buy that argument, at least not in its entirety. Remaining airborn after at the end of your turn is not equivalent to the Hover action. The half-speed requirement from the SRD is about forward movement, not total movement, and hovering has nothing to do with whether you completed necessary movement in any given direction, it is about stopping movement entirely and basically floating in mid-air. That's not something that is done as an afterthought, nor is it the same as levitating in midair without no effort at all. It's a strenuous activity that requires agility and at least some degree of concentration. That implies at least some kind of action. I can maybe see the argument that it is a non-action for creatures that fly by means other than wings and have the flight special ability (which winged creatures do not) that allows flight to be initiated or ended as a free action. That further implies that any kind of cessation of flight movement, such as hover, or initiation of flight movement, should be at least one step worse than a free action (i.e. a move equivalent action). I also don't think that the devs intended that just because a fly skill check is not an action, that the maneuvers the check determines the success of are therefore not actions (in fact, most of the maneuvers detailed under the Fly skill specifically are move or standard actions).

Quote:
The Fly skill rules apply unless they're ambiguous. In this case it's not hard to conclude that if the designers meant "Fly up at an angle between 45 and 60 degrees" they would have said so.

I'm not sure I agree with you there, either. Given the number of times the devs have recommended refering back to the SRD when their intentions aren't explicitly clear, I'd say it is a gamble to assume their intentions either way where they've remained silent on things that were previously canon.

Nightwish wrote:
And last question, when a flying character is engaged in aerial combat with another flying creature, or a hovering creature is engaged in melee with a ground-based creature, should the flying/hovering creature be able to make a 5-foot step in the air as a free action, just as one would do on the ground?
Quote:
You can take a 5-foot step with any listed speed you have, unless it would cost more than one square of movement (for example, you can't fly upwards as a 5-foot step since you move at half speed). edit: Just as on the ground, you can't take a 5-foot step if you make any other movement in the round, so presuming your fly speed is more than 10 feet, you would have to make a check to keep flying.

Okay, I'll buy that. A 5-foot "flight" sideways or down, then, would work, but a 5-foot "flight" up or at an upward angle would not, unless you have Perfect maneuverability.


Question about flying, What about Air Elementals.

Since they do not have wings, do they need to make a fly check if they move less than half there speed ?

Can you cast spells, while flying in place while an Air Elemental ?

Qadira

Oliver McShade wrote:

Question about flying, What about Air Elementals.

Since they do not have wings, do they need to make a fly check if they move less than half there speed ?

Under the "all maneuverability rules are under the Fly skill" theory, yes, they do need to make a skill check just like anything else that flies. Under the "fly skill augments, but doesn't replace, the maneuverability rules under the 3.5 SRD" theory, then no they don't, since they have Perfect maneuverability, which doesn't require a minimum movement to remain in the air.

In my opinion, this system of wrapping up all the maneuverability rules into the Fly skill, rather than using the Fly skill to augment the maneuverability rules, is a really bad idea! It creates way too much sameness between creatures with wildly different flight maneuverability. Look at the Bestiary entries for Eagle and Ancient Gold Dragon, for instance. The Eagle has a fly skill of +8, with average maneuverability. The dragon has a fly skill of +13, with clumsy maneuverability. Assuming those entries already include the adjustments for size and maneuverability (which they should), the gargantuan dragon actually has a better chance of turning on a dime than a small bird! In what universe does that make sense? Even if the size and maneuverability adjustments aren't already figured into the creatures' bestiary entries, the difference between how well the two can pull off that maneuver should come down to more than just a few places on a die. Under the 3.5 SRD, that dragon couldn't compete with an eagle when it comes to aerial maneuverability, which is as it should be. I just don't buy that the devs intended to just throw that out in favor of something far more nonsensical.


But does not the Dragon suffer a -8 penalty for being Clumsy
On the other hand, a Air elemental has perfect. so get a +8 bonus.

What i am trying to figure out is, can you cast spells while flying.
I know you can with when flying with spells like (fly).
I do not know if you can if you use wings (Harpy)??
I do not know if you can if you have a fly speed without wings(Air elemental)??

Qadira

Oliver McShade wrote:

But does not the Dragon suffer a -8 penalty for being Clumsy

On the other hand, a Air elemental has perfect. so get a +8 bonus.

Yes, but those adjustments are already figured into their Fly skill bonuses in the creature entries. So the ancient gold dragon has a fly skill of +13 after the penalties for size and clumsy maneuverability. So by the "Fly Skill Only" theory, the dragon is actually more maneuverable than a creature that is naturally a heckuva lot more maneuverable than a dragon could ever be (in the dragon vs. eagle scenario)!

Quote:

What i am trying to figure out is, can you cast spells while flying.

I know you can with when flying with spells like (fly).
I do not know if you can if you use wings (Harpy)??
I do not know if you can if you have a fly speed without wings(Air elemental)??

In some cases, you'd probably need to take feats like Natural Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell and/or Eschew Materials in order to be able to do so. And if you, for any reason, cannot stay aloft, you'd have to make a Concentration check to cast the spell. But if all the right conditions are met, I'd say yes, you should be able to cast while flying.


Nightwish wrote:
Starglim wrote:

A Fly check is not an action. edit: If you don't want to move, you don't have to. If you succeed in your check to hover at the end of your turn, you remain flying even though you didn't move half your speed, otherwise you stall and start falling.

I'm not quite sure I buy that argument, at least not in its entirety. Remaining airborn after at the end of your turn is not equivalent to the Hover action.

There IS no Hover action. Hovering is one use for the Fly skill, and the Fly skill states that it does not take an action to use it; it is either made as part of movement or as a reaction to a situation (ie, not moving on your turn means you make a reactionary Fly check to Hover; success means you stay put, failure means you fall).


So does this mean that dragons have to land before casting spells ?


Oliver McShade wrote:
So does this mean that dragons have to land before casting spells ?

Why would they? As stated, flying in of itself is not an action. If you move less than half your speed, or hover, you have to make a Fly check. This does not take a standard, move, swift, or even free action however. You still have a full round to do whatever it is you would normally do.

Qadira

Zurai wrote:
There IS no Hover action. Hovering is one use for the Fly skill, and the Fly skill states that it does not take an action to use it; it is either made as part of movement or as a reaction to a situation (ie, not moving on your turn means you make a reactionary Fly check to Hover; success means you stay put, failure means you fall).

It states that it isn't an action to make a fly check, it does not state that the maneuvers for which the fly check is made are not actions. It specifically refers to Hover as a "maneuver," and maneuvers are almost always actions, as are all of the other maneuvers given under the fly skill. There is also a feat for hovering without a fly check, which further implies it is an action, not merely part of a fly check.


Nightwish wrote:
Zurai wrote:
There IS no Hover action. Hovering is one use for the Fly skill, and the Fly skill states that it does not take an action to use it; it is either made as part of movement or as a reaction to a situation (ie, not moving on your turn means you make a reactionary Fly check to Hover; success means you stay put, failure means you fall).
It states that it isn't an action to make a fly check, it does not state that the maneuvers for which the fly check is made are not actions. It specifically refers to Hover as a "maneuver," and maneuvers are almost always actions, as are all of the other maneuvers given under the fly skill. There is also a feat for hovering without a fly check, which further implies it is an action, not merely part of a fly check.

No, not really. Actually, not a word of that is true or even logical. The syntax for skill descriptions includes an "Action:" field which describes what kind of action using that skill is. The Action field for Fly skill very explicitly states that using Fly is not an action, period, end of story. There's nothing in the rules that states that "maneuvers" (which aren't even a defined game term) are actions. Having a feat to avoid the Fly check for hovering also does not in any way imply that hovering is an action.

Hovering is not an action. No standard use of the Fly skill, as described in the Skill Description for the Fly skill, requires an action.


Is not the Act of Flying a Move Action. (edit).. Ok Standard action can be done before or after the move action (was thinking of spells that last a round).

If you cast a spell and then take a 5 foot step.(edit).. For a spell that takes 1 round to cast. Would not this cause you to take a Fly DC 10 (Move less than half speed and remain flying) check ?

Would casting a spell while flying be considered Vigorous Motion (DC10+spell level) Concentration check or would it be Violent Motion (DC15+spell level) concentration check?? ... still wondering about this tho.

Still trying to figure this out.

Grand Lodge

Oliver McShade wrote:
Is not the Act of Flying a Move Action.

Moving with a Fly speed is a move action. Not moving is no action, but it requires a check unless you have the Hover feat.

Oliver McShade wrote:
If you cast a spell and then take a 5 foot step.(edit).. For a spell that takes 1 round to cast. Would not this cause you to take a Fly DC 10 (Move less than half speed and remain flying) check ?

Yes it would.

Oliver McShade wrote:
Would casting a spell while flying be considered Vigorous Motion (DC10+spell level) Concentration check or would it be Violent Motion (DC15+spell level) concentration check?? ... still wondering about this tho.

Possibly vigorous motion, though all of the examples given involve some other creature or vehicle moving the caster.

Violent motion only seems applicable if you run using the Fly speed, which would normally prevent you casting anyway.

Grand Lodge

Oliver McShade wrote:

Question about flying, What about Air Elementals.

Since they do not have wings, do they need to make a fly check if they move less than half there speed ?

I think if an air elemental failed a Fly check, it wouldn't fall or suffer any other adverse effect, so there is no reason to roll the check even if the elemental theoretically has to make one.


A little unrelated, but that just reminds of a campaign I once ran with a raptoran samurai and I've got to mention this.

This was a game that features an "anti-party," and the evil opposite of the raptoran PC ended up being an aarocokra scout/dervish. Aarocokra's in flight can wield weapons with their rear talons in addition to those in their hands (don't ask me how they fly that way, but I believe it works RAW). That's precicely what this NPC did, using multiweapon fighting feats to wield four scimitars, activating dervish dance and swooping by the party, making something like 16 total attack rolls in a round, and getting the scout's skirmish damage off on each one of them.

Qadira

Zurai wrote:
No, not really. Actually, not a word of that is true or even logical. The syntax for skill descriptions includes an "Action:" field which describes what kind of action using that skill is. The Action field for Fly skill very explicitly states that using Fly is not an action, period, end of story.

You're missing the point I'm making about the fly skill. Yes, I understand that it is not an action to make a fly skill check. But the fly skill check is made to determine the success of certain maneuvers that are actions (or are part of actions, if you really want to split hairs over syntax). With the possible exception of hovering, ALL of the other maneuvers listed under the fly skill have to be taken as part of move actions. ALL of them. Not as part of free actions, not as part of standard actions, but as part of move actions. If you want to argue that none of them are actions since making a fly skill check is not an action, then by that logic, you would also have to argue that a flying character that has already taken its turn for the round can reactively avoid another flying creature's aerial charge by suddenly climbing 45 degrees ... since that's also part of the fly skill, and it isn't an action to use the fly skill. Right?

See, all of this goes to why it was such a horrendously bad idea to get rid of the maneuverability rules and throw it all under the Fly skill.


Nightwish wrote:
With the possible exception of hovering, ALL of the other maneuvers listed under the fly skill have to be taken as part of move actions. ALL of them. Not as part of free actions, not as part of standard actions, but as part of move actions.

False. As already mentioned in this very thread, you can 5' step while flying, which is a free action, and would trigger the "move less than half speed and remain flying" "maneuver" unless you have a 5' fly speed.


Zurai wrote:
Nightwish wrote:
With the possible exception of hovering, ALL of the other maneuvers listed under the fly skill have to be taken as part of move actions. ALL of them. Not as part of free actions, not as part of standard actions, but as part of move actions.
False. As already mentioned in this very thread, you can 5' step while flying, which is a free action, and would trigger the "move less than half speed and remain flying" "maneuver" unless you have a 5' fly speed.

Or a 10' fly speed, since 5' is not less than half of 10'. ;)

Qadira

Zurai wrote:
Nightwish wrote:
With the possible exception of hovering, ALL of the other maneuvers listed under the fly skill have to be taken as part of move actions. ALL of them. Not as part of free actions, not as part of standard actions, but as part of move actions.
False. As already mentioned in this very thread, you can 5' step while flying, which is a free action, and would trigger the "move less than half speed and remain flying" "maneuver" unless you have a 5' fly speed.

That's the only exception, and it is only an exception in limited circumstances. All of the others require the task be done as part of a move action. And it still doesn't answer the question of what action hover must be taken as a part of. Contrary to some opinions, hover is not non-movement. It is using the mechanics of movement to remain aloft and in place. It is using the mechanics of lift to counter the mechanics of gravity. That's a strenuous activity that requires some degree of concentration. If you want to get downright technical about it, a hovering creature is actually moving upward at a rate equal to the downward pull of gravity. That isn't the same as not moving.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is an interesting discussion.

I think it makes sense that dragons are more maneuverable than birds. Either they are roughly the same size, but more powerful (when the dragon is younger), or they are far older and larger and have had centuries (over the bird's handful of years) to perfect their flying ability. Tack on the fact that they are MAGICAL creatures and I'm left wondering why anyone else is puzzled.


Nightwish, wants to know if you can do a Full Round Attack, while hovering.

So depending on if consider Hover a Movement action ( which lets you get one standard action ) or if you consider Hover not an action ( which lets you get a Full round action).

At least this is what i think she wants to know.

.....................................

I also want to know, because depending on the answer, this would also effect spell casting for druids in air elemental form.


Nightwish wrote:
Contrary to some opinions, hover is not non-movement. It is using the mechanics of movement to remain aloft and in place. It is using the mechanics of lift to counter the mechanics of gravity. That's a strenuous activity that requires some degree of concentration. If you want to get downright technical about it, a hovering creature is actually moving upward at a rate equal to the downward pull of gravity. That isn't the same as not moving.

By that logic, standing still in one place is technically moving as well. Gravity is imparting a force on my body to try and pull me down, and I use my legs and other muscles in my body to impart a force to keep me standing up.

But hovering takes more effort, I hear you saying. Sure. Which is why it requires a skill check. A skill check that explictly says that it takes NO ACTION. It's right there in the rulebook in black and white. It's not even a free action, it's no action at all. If you fail that check it has consequences on what you can do in that round, sure. If you make it however, you're free to do whatever you'd normally be able to do on your turn, up to and including full-round actions.

I think part of the disconnect here is trying to reconcile 3.5 and Pathfinder rules for flight together. Don't do that. All the rules you need are right in Pathfinder. Manuverability ratings give modifiers to the Fly skill. Hovering, making rapid turns and ascending at steep angles are things any flyer with enough skill can do, no feats or minimum manuverability required. Make your check and move on.


It`s not that difficult.
Flying is no different than any other movement mode, action wise, you just need to pass various Fly Skill DCs... not much different than walking on an icy/greasy surface in essence. Swim is another mode where DCs may have to be passed, depending on conditions - and you also may have to pass a Swim check to stay in place, depending on water conditions - JUST LIKE FLY/HOVER (like-wise this doesn´t take any actions, e.g. Full/Standard/Move/Swift, even if this doesn´t seem most realistic)

It`s pretty obvious that this is not some incidental area where Paizo may have accidentally not included needed info. The changes to how Fly works are clearly intentional, even if you don´t like it and even if you think it erased important distinctions between different modes of flight. Guess what? That`s a common theme to the changes PRPG made to MANY areas, including Perception, Acrobatics/Jump, Combat Manuevers and Polymorph effects. If you disagree with PRPG design direction and want to house-rule differently, fine, but pretending that thse design choices weren´t made so that one can try and stealth inject 3.5 paradigms is an excercise in trolling.


So a Flying Creature, with the "Hover" Feat does not need to make a Fly check, and can make Full Round action (melee) or cast spells that take more than 1 standard action in time to cast (Silence, True Resurrection) while staying aloft in the Air.


Oliver McShade wrote:
So a Flying Creature, with the "Hover" Feat does not need to make a Fly check, and can make Full Round action (melee) or cast spells that take more than 1 standard action in time to cast (Silence, True Resurrection) while staying aloft in the Air.

Yup. Also note the 'normal' text from that feat:

Quote:
Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.

In other words, a creature without the feat can still hover, full attack, cast spells, talk, flip the bird to someone, etc... they just need to make a Fly skill check vs DC15 (taking into account all modifiers) to do so.

Really, the Hover feat is just for large or bigger creatures to get the debris cloud effect, and to counteract the penalties they get for being bigger than Medium size, and possibly low manuverability ratings. It lets you have dragons that have to soar and swoop around the sky to turn, but can do that iconic heavy flapping right over the ground. Of course, they might also have the Wingover feat to make dramatic fast turns.


The other advantage to the Hover Feat, is that you do not have to make a Fly check.

Without the feat you have to make a Fly check, and if failed, you crash into the ground for (1d6 x 10feet = Damage) per distance fall. Which would also prevent you from taking a full round action or casting a spell (in most likely hood).


Pathfinder beastiary
Feat
Hover
This creature can hover in place with ease and can kick up clouds of dust and debris.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check.
If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).
Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.
Flight (Ex or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Format: fly 30 ft. (average); Location: Speed.

core book
Fly skill
Hover DC 15: but
Attacked While Flying: You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature’s movement.
Action: None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Try Again: Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Chapter 13).

for the char needs to take the feat to hover in the first place and what i read yes you can hover as a free action but he needs to make check for each round and then he takes damage some for the air Elemental for the (perfect) flight will the humming bird has perfect flight it dont need a feat to hover and this is pathfinder (perfect) maneuverability is only a skill bouns no more its up to the GM for that call. for me use this pg 20 in 3.5E dmg it help me out a lot


Oliver McShade wrote:
Without the feat you have to make a Fly check, and if failed, you crash into the ground for (1d6 x 10feet = Damage) per distance fall. Which would also prevent you from taking a full round action or casting a spell (in most likely hood).

I would still allow a Full Attack as if they made their attacks mid-air - The character made a choice to Full Attack (requiring Hovering) instead of normal Flight Movement which would have kept them in the air, so negating their chosen action when the Fly rules don´t suggest anything like this seems unfair. They still take damage and end up Prone (it would consider ruling that some of their attacks are done after they fall, with Prone penalties to-hit)

Likewise, simply falling shouldn´t out-and-out PREVENT spell casting... Just use the Concentration DC for Violent Motion + received damage, that`s what those options are for. Note that Combat Casting and other (Magus) bonuses don´t apply here, as it`s just a straight up Concentration Check, not Combat Casting.


Ok so what your saying is.

Fly (failed fly check for hover), you can still take a Full-Round action, but at end of your round, you take Falling Damage.

Fly (failed fly check for hover), you can still cast a spell assuming Concentration check for (violent motion + damage). Assuming Earthquake 20+spell level+damage would be used in this case.


chaoskin wrote:
for the char needs to take the feat to hover in the first place and what i read yes you can hover as a free action but he needs to make check for each round and then he takes damage some for the air Elemental for the (perfect) flight will the humming bird has perfect flight it dont need a feat to hover and this is pathfinder (perfect) maneuverability is only a skill bouns no more its up to the GM for that call. for me use this pg 20 in 3.5E dmg it help me out a lot

This is hard to understand, but let me try. The feat removes the need for a check, but you don't NEED the feat to hover. It just makes it easier. As long as you have normal conditions, Fly as a class skill, and a rank or two, a DC15 shouldn't be too hard to make. In non-combat situations you could even take-10.

A hummingbird isn't statted out, but I imagine it would look something like this: Dex 20 (+5), Perfect Manuverability (+8), Diminutive size (+6), Ranks (+1), Class Skill (+3) = +23 So in normal conditions, or even conditions up to Strong winds, it's an automatic success. It wouldn't even need to take the feat.

Note that Air Elementals in the Bestiary don't have the feat either, since their Perfect manuverability gives them a bonus high enough that they can make the DC with ease. Small and Medium Elementals have +17 to Fly, and it just gets better from there.

Again, the flight rules have changed completely from 3.5. Referencing the old rules and trying to use the new rules at the same time will just lead to confusion. The new rules work.

Grand Lodge

chaoskin wrote:
you can hover as a free action

Careful about talking loosely about free actions (an earlier poster also said a 5-foot step is a free action). A creature can make a Fly check if it's cowering, dazed, etc., or outside its own turn, provided it's otherwise physically able to fly.


If i stated out the humming bird. I would either give Hover as one of its Feat ((best option)), or list its Hover as a special ability down below the entry. The same way Sprint for Cheetah is listed.


Starglim wrote:
chaoskin wrote:
you can hover as a free action
Careful about talking loosely about free actions (an earlier poster also said a 5-foot step is a free action). A creature can make a Fly check if it's cowering, dazed, etc., or outside its own turn, provided it's otherwise physically able to fly.

Thank you, missed that part while I was replying in depth about the rest. Yeah, flying is specifically NOT any kind of action whatsoever, not even a Free one.


Oliver McShade wrote:
If i stated out the humming bird. I would either give Hover as one of its Feat ((best option)), or list its Hover as a special ability down below the entry. The same way Sprint for Cheetah is listed.

And if it were me, I wouldn't bother. There's only so many circumstances that affect Fly checks. The hypothetical hummingbird I posted above can take up to a -9 in penalties and still make the check automatically. They'd be arbitrarily blown away by high winds long before the penalty gets that high. Better off using the feat slot for something like Agile Maneuvers, Dodge, Improved Initiative or Run. Hover really gives them nothing they can't already do (since they're not large and thus can't do the dust cloud thing anyway).

Grand Lodge

Oliver McShade wrote:

Ok so what your saying is.

Fly (failed fly check for hover), you can still take a Full-Round action, but at end of your round, you take Falling Damage.

Fly (failed fly check for hover), you can still cast a spell assuming Concentration check for (violent motion + damage). Assuming Earthquake 20+spell level+damage would be used in this case.

There's been some discussion elsewhere about how far a creature free-falls in a round. Without checking the references there (NB: they appear to be 3.5 rules), you fall either 150 or 500 feet. If you hit something, you take falling damage.

edit: While falling less than 500 feet, you can't cast any spell except with an immediate action (p. 443). If your fall is a total of 500 feet or more, you can cast with a concentration check, DC 20 + spell level. This is specific to falling but happens to be the same chance as extremely violent motion.


ZappoHisbane wrote:

This is hard to understand, but let me try. The feat removes the need for a check, but you don't NEED the feat to hover. It just makes it easier. As long as you have normal conditions, Fly as a class skill, and a rank or two, a DC15 shouldn't be too hard to make. In non-combat situations you could even take-10.

yes

ZappoHisbane wrote:
A hummingbird isn't statted out, but I imagine it would look something like this: Dex 20 (+5), Perfect Manuverability (+8), Diminutive size (+6), Ranks (+1), Class Skill (+3) = +23 So in normal conditions, or even conditions up to Strong winds, it's an automatic success. It wouldn't even need to take the feat.

grrrrr Diminutive humming bird! 1 allways fail all the time

ZappoHisbane wrote:
Note that Air Elementals in the Bestiary don't have the feat either, since their Perfect manuverability gives them a bonus high enough that they can make the DC with ease. Small and Medium Elementals have +17 to Fly, and it just gets better from there.

yes the feat helps but it dont say hover is a move action with or without the feat. the way i read it you have to keep moving each round but with the feat you use your move action to hover each round but on the other hand Flight A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. why do you need the feat if you resume flight as a free action? core book or beastiary not taking to each other they need to clear this up. ......................................... but now rereading Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering. you dont need the feat at all. if you make the skill check (DC 15) its free to hover.

ZappoHisbane wrote:
Again, the flight rules have changed completely from 3.5. Referencing the old rules and trying to use the new rules at the same time will just lead to confusion. The new rules work.

true i use it as a gideline not to use


chaoskin wrote:
grrrrr Diminutive monsters kill it fast now! 1 allways fail all the time

Skill checks do not automatically fail on a 1, nor do they automatically succeed on a 20. Unless you're using a (silly) houserule.

chaoskin wrote:
yes the feat helps but it dont say hover is a move action with or without the feat. the way i read it you have to keep moving each round but with the feat you use your move action to hover each round but on the other hand Flight A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. why do you need the feat if you resume flight as a free action? core book or beastiary not taking to each other they need to clear this up. ......................................... but now rereading Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering. you dont need the feat at all. if you make the skill check (DC 15) its free to hover.

Once again, a fly check is not a move action, it's not a free action, it's NO action:

Fly Skill Description wrote:
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

Therefore hovering does not consume any of your available actions on a turn.


So as i understand it.

With Hover = Your not taking a move action, and can perform Full Round Actions.

When Not Hovering = You are taking a move action, and can take a standard action before or after your move.

When not Hovering = You still have to move 1/2 your fly speed, or You make a Fly check. If you fail the check you fall to the ground and take falling damage. If you Pass your fly check, you remain flying in the air.

Hover Feat = Lets you hover in the air without making a check. Without the feat you would have to make a DC 15 check to Hover. The advantage to the feat is that it lets you cast spells without worrying about failing a check, which may or may not cause disruption depending on if or if not you pass a concentration check.

Avoid Falling damage = Does not apply if you are falling because you failed a fly check or due to a collision.

.

(((While fly check is not an action. What people want to know is what kind of action is flying, so we can know what kind of action we can take while we are flying)).
.
Falling damage in past version was caped at 200 feet, as 20d6 was considered max damage from falling... Do not think there is a limit any more in Pathfinder so .... Ouch !!!


for falling here a heads up

Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
some ppl will try to get that pass you

Falling pg 443
A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage.
only a reminder

it dont say if you fall before or after you fail the check trying to do a full round action. some gm say the time you fail the check then you fall some say at the end of the round. ext move first then go in a hover (fail check) you fall before you attack (once) at someone or you attack (once) then move (fail check) then you fall. the GM i play sometimes make me make a check at the start my round then if i fail i fall before i go spaning a move to get back up move to go back in the air 2 moves im done. like i sayed its up to the gm if you are the gm i will let you disside if it before or after.


Oliver McShade wrote:

So as i understand it.

With Hover = Your not taking a move action, and can perform Full Round Actions.

When Not Hovering = You are taking a move action, and can take a standard action before or after your move.

When not Hovering = You still have to move 1/2 your fly speed, or You make a Fly check. If you fail the check you fall to the ground and take falling damage. If you Pass your fly check, you remain flying in the air.

Hover Feat = Lets you hover in the air without making a check. Without the feat you would have to make a DC 15 check to Hover. The advantage to the feat is that it lets you cast spells without worrying about failing a check, which may or may not cause disruption depending on if or if not you pass a concentration check.

thats what i reading you hit it on the head

Qadira

ZappoHisbane wrote:

By that logic, standing still in one place is technically moving as well. Gravity is imparting a force on my body to try and pull me down, and I use my legs and other muscles in my body to impart a force to keep me standing up.

But hovering takes more effort, I hear you saying. Sure. Which is why it requires a skill check. A skill check that explictly says that it takes NO ACTION. It's right there in the rulebook in black and white. It's not even a free action, it's no action at all.

Which is why I've FAQ'd this thread, in hopes that the devs will weigh in on it, because I have a hard time believing that hover was not intended to either be an action or part of an action, especially given that it not only takes more effort than standing, it also takes more effort that walking, swimming or flying. That's part of why there are tons of flying creatures in the real world, but relatively few that can actually hover.

Quote:
I think part of the disconnect here is trying to reconcile 3.5 and Pathfinder rules for flight together. Don't do that. All the rules you need are right in Pathfinder.

They are supposed to be reconcilable. That's what backward compatability means. I understand that there are some PFRPG purists who believe that backward compatability only applied to the beta, or that it only applies to races, classes, feats, spells and equipment from 3.5, but not to rules questions. But that isn't what it means. It's not hard at all to reconcile the two (for instance, requiring a Fly skill check DC 15 to successfully hover [PFRPG] but only if you have good enough maneuverability to hover in the first place [Average or better, 3.5 rules]. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Manuverability ratings give modifiers to the Fly skill. Hovering, making rapid turns and ascending at steep angles are things any flyer with enough skill can do, no feats or minimum manuverability required. Make your check and move on.

And as I've mentioned before, in my opinion, that was one of the worst changes they made in Pathfinder. Terrible idea. I know that it was made just to make things a little easier and require a little less math, but to a fault. To a player who wants to have to think as little as possible, it's great, but to players who actually want the rules to make a little bit of sense without requiring too much suspension of disbelief, it falls way short. If you want me to believe a 15,000-pound creature flying at almost 60 miles per hour (and whose magical nature does not improve its maneuverability rating) can turn around 180 degrees in the same amount of space as a 10-pound bird flying at 18 miles per hour, I'm sorry, but that dog don't hunt! However, if you grandfather in the turn restrictions by maneuverability rating from the original 3.5 SRD, then it makes a heckuva lot more sense without necessarily taking anything away from the Fly skill.

Qadira

chaoskin wrote:
Action: None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

This is an important distinction, and it utterly destroys the argument that hovering is not required to be part of another action. As a reaction to a situation, it would not allow a full attack action, because the check would be made outside of your normal turn. As a part of an action, it goes back to the original question - is it part of a free action, which would allow full attacks, or part of a move action, which does not allow full attacks?

Quote:

Flight (Ex or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.

Format: fly 30 ft. (average); Location: Speed.

Please note, however, that this applies only to creatures that have the Flight special ability. Looking through the Bestiary, no winged creatures have this ability, and it seems to be limited mostly to things like demons and certain outsiders that achieve flight through means other than wings.


Nightwish, i click your FAQ link also.

While i understand, what you are saying. I am hoping that "Hovering", lets you take a Full action. This does make more since to me, since a Harpy with wings, could hover right above the target, and make a full round attack action. The same with an Elemental. They would both still need to spend a round getting into place to do this, before they could hover. I do not mind the Feat Tax, to do this reliably.

PS (for myself).... i prefer Easy over realistic any day.

Qadira

ZappoHisbane wrote:

Once again, a fly check is not a move action, it's not a free action, it's NO action:

Fly Skill Description wrote:
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Therefore hovering does not consume any of your available actions on a turn.

Once again, you're entirely missing the distinction between a Fly check being no action, and a task adjudicated by a Fly check being no action. As the fly skill explicitly states, it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

A check to stay aloft after moving less than half speed = reaction to a situation

Turn greater than 45 degrees by spending 5 feet of movement = part of a move action

Turn 180 degrees by spending 10 feet of movement = part of a move action

Fly up at a 45 degree angle = part of a move action

Attacked while flying = reaction to a situation

Collision while flying = reaction to a situation

Avoid falling damage = reaction to a situation

High speed winds = reaction to a situation

Hover = ? (it has to be one or the other - it is my opinion that it should be part of a move action, or part of a free action if you have the Hover feat or have Good or Perfect maneuverability)

Qadira

Oliver McShade wrote:

PS (for myself).... i prefer Easy over realistic any day.

I do too, but only when Easy doesn't tax the limits of credulity too much. And a few of the arguments I'm seeing in this thread are taxing the limits of credulity way too far.


My main concern is that with all the different type of flying creatures. The fact that Druid and Wizard power let you take on there movements.

That the fly skill did not go into better detail, about how fly works, which creatures winged vs non-winged, and what kind of action was taking place... movement, hover/full, falling, spell casting, etc.

Oh well, maybe something will be added to d20pfsrd.


Nightwish wrote:
They are supposed to be reconcilable. That's what backward compatability means.

No, it's not. Backwards compatibility means that it's compatible. It means you CAN use parts of the previous edition with Pathfinder. What you're talking about however REQUIRES the rules printed in the previous edition on top of what's in Pathfinder. Nowhere will you find in Pathfinder "refer to the 3.5 SRD for more information/detail," because you don't need to.

Nightwish wrote:
If you want me to believe a 15,000-pound creature flying at almost 60 miles per hour (and whose magical nature does not improve its maneuverability rating) can turn around 180 degrees in the same amount of space as a 10-pound bird flying at 18 miles per hour, I'm sorry, but that dog don't hunt!

Well, let's look at the numbers, shall we? Say, Red Dragons:

Young (11HD, large, dex 12, poor): Fly +9
Adult (17HD, huge, dex 10, poor): Fly +12
Ancient (25HD, gargantuan, dex 8, clumsy): Fly +11

So none of these dragons can hover automatically during combat (take-10 not allowed), and during a windstorm (-8 check) it's a 50/50 chance to be able to do it for the best of the bunch. Turning 180 degrees is even harder, since it's a DC20 check. Now I haven't done the math, but it's obvious that since the Fly checks aren't going down significantly despite the creatures getting bigger and clumsier, that dragons invest ranks in the Fly skill. So it makes sense that they're at least decent fliers, but they're still limited by their actual physical abilities and size. The Pathfinder system does exactly what you expect it to do, and the intelligent creatures compensate for it.

How about non-intelligent:

Roc (16HD, gargantuan, dex 15, average): Fly +7
Pteranodon (5HD, large, dex 19, clumsy): Fly -1

How about that. Without the skill points to invest, they're not as good at flying, despite being more dexterous and/or more manuverable. The Pteranadon couldn't even do a 180 turn with a natural 20.

The Pathfinder system does exactly what you want it to do, and it does it simpler. It's win-win.

Edit: Forgot the italized word in my first paragraph above.


Nightwish wrote:

Once again, you're entirely missing the distinction between a Fly check being no action, and a task adjudicated by a Fly check being no action. As the fly skill explicitly states, it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

...
Hover = ? (it has to be one or the other - it is my opinion that it should be part of a move action, or part of a free action if you have the Hover feat or have Good or Perfect maneuverability)

Nope. It's not an action in of itself, it's NO action. The check is made as a part of whatever else you're doing that round, be it a full attack, or casting a spell, drinking a potion, or picking your nose.

If hovering were a specific action unto itself, it would have been stated as such. All other skills that have multiple applications and varying durations for each spell it out explicitly. This would have been done with the Fly skill if intended. You can't even say that it's a copy/paste error or artifact from 3.5 in this case because Paizo wrote the Fly skill themselves. RAW and RAI couldn't be clearer.

Qadira

ZappoHisbane wrote:
Nightwish wrote:
They are supposed to be reconcilable. That's what backward compatability means.
No, it's not. Backwards compatibility means that it's compatible. It means you CAN use parts of the previous edition with Pathfinder. What talking about however REQUIRES the rules printed in the previous edition on top of what's in Pathfinder. Nowhere will you find in Pathfinder "refer to the 3.5 SRD for more information/detail," because you don't need to.

You do when the Pathfinder rules are unclear, and in the case of hover, they clearly are, as indicated by this thread. And when the Pathfinder rules on their own render something nonsensical, but the 3.5 SRD made that same thing a lot more sensible, then it is also worthwhile to reconcile them. The Fly skill is one of those cases.

Nightwish wrote:
If you want me to believe a 15,000-pound creature flying at almost 60 miles per hour (and whose magical nature does not improve its maneuverability rating) can turn around 180 degrees in the same amount of space as a 10-pound bird flying at 18 miles per hour, I'm sorry, but that dog don't hunt!

Well, let's look at the numbers, shall we? Say, Red Dragons:

Young (11HD, large, dex 12, poor): Fly +9
Adult (17HD, huge, dex 10, poor): Fly +12
Ancient (25HD, gargantuan, dex 8, clumsy): Fly +11

So none of these dragons can hover automatically during combat (take-10 not allowed), and during a windstorm (-8 check) it's a 50/50 chance to be able to do it for the best of the bunch. Turning 180 degrees is even harder, since it's a DC20 check. Now I haven't done the math, but it's obvious that since the Fly checks aren't going down significantly despite the creatures getting bigger and clumsier, that dragons invest ranks in the Fly skill. So it makes sense that they're at least decent fliers, but they're still limited by their actual physical abilities and size. The Pathfinder system does exactly what you expect it to do, and the intelligent creatures compensate for it.

How about non-intelligent:

Roc (16HD, gargantuan, dex 15, average): Fly +7
Pteranodon (5HD, large, dex 19, clumsy): Fly -1

How about that. Without the skill points to invest, they're not as good at flying, despite being more dexterous and/or more manuverable. The Pteranadon couldn't even do a 180 turn with a natural 20.

...

Skill and Intelligence are only part of the equation. Physics still plays a role. That's why the Fly skill rules alone, without clarification from the maneuverability rules, are nonsensical. I don't care how intelligent an ancient red dragon is, I don't care how many years it has lived, I don't care that its magical (if the magic didn't improve its maneuverability any), I don't care how many ranks it invested in the Fly skill, I don't care what it rolls on the dice - it's not going to turn 180 degrees at full speed in the same amount of space as an eagle. I'm sorry, it isn't going to happen, no matter how many die-based gymastics you do with it. It isn't going to happen. That was why 3.5 made it impossible for a creature with a maneuverability of Clumsy to turn on a dime, because they understood that. I don't know if the Pathfinder devs just didn't take that into consideration, or if they left it out as an oversight, but the current Fly skill rules take a lot away from the dynamics and credulity of flight.

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