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Alchemist's Viper


Round 1 - Open Call: Create a Wondrous Item

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Alchemist's Viper
moderate transmutation; CL 13th
Slot wrists; Price 27,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This emerald-adorned, serpentine bracelet slowly moves around the wearer's wrist and allows the wearer to quickly inject a potion or an alchemist's extract into his bloodstream, bypassing the imbibing process. At will as a swift action, the wearer may activate a prepared extract or potion as if he had drank it. The fangs of the serpent bite down on the wearer's wrist to make the injection, dealing 1d6 damage per formula level of the extract or spell level of the potion to the wearer (a DC 18 Fortitude save reduces the damage by half). Preparing an extract or potion for injection is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The extract or potion is poured into the mouth of the serpent, which can hold one extract or potion at a time. The wearer can use the alchemist's viper with any potion, an extract created with the infusion class feature, or his own extracts if the wearer is an alchemist.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, delayed consumption, animate objects; Cost 13,750 gp

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

Okay...so...if I inject myself with a potion of cure moderate wounds, it basically wounds me for 2d6 before it heals me of 2d8+3? That's...annoying. Do alchemists really need quick injections of extracts and potions as a swift action rather than a standard action? Other than that, there are some issues with the execution of the template (e.g., missing the word "Aura" but bolded the aura information for us...forgot to alphabetize the spells, etc.). I'm curious to hear Sean's assessment on the price. Is it worth 27,500 gp to damage yourself with swift activations of extracts or potions? I don't know. I'm not bowled over by the idea. It's also based on the delayed consumption spell which caps itself at 4th level or lower. This item has no cap...which may warrant the high price?

Regardless, my vote is a weak Reject at the moment.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

The idea is you'd be able to use two pots/extracts in a single round--one as a normal standard action, one as a swift from the item.
I like that you prepare it in advance, I like that it hurts you when it injects you. I like that the damage is enough to be annoying but not so much that a cure potion wouldn't be worthwhile.

It would have been even smarter if it let you store a mutagen in it (though you'd need to define how much damage that bite does to you).

And even cooler if it let you inject yourself with poison, or antitoxin, or other liquid things.

I don't think it's priced right, though... I'd maybe price it at about 10,000 gp.

I like the mechanics of this enough to give a stern wag of the finger at the questionable pricing, and then vote...

Keep.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

This may be one of those items we keep around for discussion. But, I have a feeling it'll fall out of the Top 32. Let's see what Ryan and Mark think. If it goes in the Keep folder, we'll just have to see what else comes along that might pick this one off. Or, if this one earns its way in, I'm okay with that.

CEO, Goblinworks

Let's keep for now. It's one of the few poison items that doesn't smack me as "required if available" so far.

RyanD

Paizo Employee Developer

I think we should keep it for further review. There are issues with it, as have been raised before, but I really like the flavor of it. I agree with Sean that it would be a sure keeper if it could inject you with antitoxins or other alchemical liquids. But as it is, I could see myself using it and filling it with remove disease or delay poison, as I'd gladly take a few d6 of damage to avoid ability damage.

Keep.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

Yep, it's flirting with the line a little, but this one has grown on me over time. It makes my Top 32, but there's a lot of room for growth in this designer over the course of the competition. I'll be curious to see how that pans out. Raise your game!

Taldor RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16, 2010 Top 4

I like the visuals and the usefulness of this item, but wonder if the damage done by it is a bit too excessive? Maybe a set amount of damage and the ability to inject any liquid would make it a stronger entry.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Nice name, gives me an idea about that it does before I even read it. That it does more damage from higher level potions/extracts is there purely as a metagame cost and that is a bit jarring. I’m not sure about the Fort save to halve it either, that doesn’t normally happen for simple damage. It could be typed as piercing damage maybe, so that DR can reduce it, although with that you have to worry about what happens if you fail to beat the DR. I do like that it isn’t just an alchemist class item, anyone can use it and alchemists can use most of their abilities with it. I’ll also say I want to be able to use more liquids in it, the other judges have mentioned a few things, but what about wondrous item elixirs?

At first I thought the cost might be a little too high, but I’m starting to revise that opinion a little, a lesser quicken rod is 35,000 gp and alchemists can have up to 6th level extracts (with the limitation that extracts only work on the drinker). I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on how you came up with the price.
I really like that you spelled out the action it takes to refill it. I also like that it is themed as something I would want for my alchemist character, it feels ‘alchemisty’.

Welcome to the ranks of RPG Superstar! Keep the ideas flowing and keep putting in the detail, especially in Round 2. Best of luck!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

First and foremost, I think this is a cool item and I definitely like it. I say that because I’m going to critique some points and I don’t want that to get lost.

In response to the other judge’s remarks I took a few moments and tried to reverse engineer the pricing, without success. That, in of itself, doesn’t mean you made a mistake (other than the general consensus that it might cost too much). It just means I’m not able to see your logic. I’d love to hear how you arrived at this, not to pick on you, but so that maybe we can all learn something. If you don’t want to though, that’s quite alright. You have many rounds to go and time is precious.

Without belaboring the obvious, this looks like an alchemist item. Yet after checking the list of available alchemist formulae, this is apparently an item that an alchemist can only create with the help of a (higher level) Bard or Cleric. I’m talking about the animate objects prerequisite, which is also increasing your CL to 13, and presumably inflating your price as well. Don’t get me wrong, I think your item works well as an item that anyone can use, so don’t change that, but I think you’re watering down your theme and design by requiring animate objects. I do see the logic behind it (i.e. it comes to life and bites you); but if animate objects was a prerequisite for every magic item that moved a little bit, 13th level Bards and Cleric would corner the wondrous item market. It’s not moving around like a construct, and it doesn’t have to roll in order to bite you (nor does it require stats, etc.). What the item is doing is giving you fast access to a potion or extract, the rest is cosmetic. Yet that animate objects spell is defining the cost and CL more than delayed consumption. Delayed consumption is the important prerequisite here. Dropping animate objects really makes it an alchemist item, rather than a hybrid item of multiple classes.

I think I understand about the damage, you want it to scale in proportion to the CL of the potion or extract. You don’t want this to be a cheap quicken feat for high level effects. That’s great if it’s true, because it tells me that you’re looking at the big picture in terms of mechanics. At the same time, I’m not sure this is the best solution. I would make it a flat amount of damage, no save, and limit the level of potion and extract it can “inject”, just like delayed consumption does. This is beyond the scope of what your word count and what was asked of you, but I can easily see a Lesser and Greater version of this item, differentiated by CL (and therefore cost), whereas the Greater Version could inject higher level materials.

Mutagens would have been great too. You had some words to play with.

All in all, this is a great effort, and I look forward to what you have for us in Round Two! Hissssss!

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Wow, thanks for the consideration. This is quite exciting!

Qadira RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 aka Sect

I'm a bit leery and confused about the item, but I really don't know very much about Alchemists. I'm going to talk to a friend of mine who knows quite a bit about the class, then get back to you with commentary.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Issac: congrats, man! Glad to see a fellow Star Wars PbP'er make it! Good luck and keep up the awesome, man.


Hey, congrats, nice job.
One question: are you familiar with the Iron Cobra?
That seems to do alot of what this does, and with several other benefits: working with `alchemical substances` implies alchemist mutagens (though it was written before that class) in addition to potions/extracts. It also apparently doesn`t need ANY actions by it`s `master` (Free Action to direct Construct under your control?), besides being able to be used againt enemies, AND not taking any item slots... and the damage is lesser and not variable based on spell level of contents. (the base version, which is really all you need for self-use, is only 4k) Iron Cobra also using Animate Object for Crafting seems relevant to that topic being brought up for your item, IMHO.

If I wanted to change this to differentiate it from Iron Cobra, I would make it an Immediate Action... and possibly add another function... let`s say also as an Immediate Action an EMPTY Alchemists` Viper can attempt to immediately extract any poison or delivered potion/alchemical substance that has been delivered into your blood.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Russ just made me reconsider some of my remarks. I completely forgot that you can increase the DC if you don't meet all of the prerequisites in crafting.

That mitigates some of my remarks.

Further proof that this contest even helps the judges learn and stay sharp.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

I am here to Vipe your Vindows.
Neat item, a bit of clarification in text of order might helped have (describing how to load it first, then how to inject it) The damage is a bit high, and I think I'd have fixed it at 1d4 or 1d6. That said, the sliding around the wrist is good fluff.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I like it but the d6 per level is way too much - damage, sure, but that's killin' damage to many folks.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor , Dedicated Voter 2013

Quicken items often rub me the wrong way. However, it's expensive (appropriately), and you need to load the right extract in advance. I appreciate that the item covers whether or not you can inject an extract you didn't prepare.

On the fence, but I'm leaning towards liking the item, and I definitely like the attention to detail.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014 aka John Benbo

No one my current group has played any of the new APG classes (our current campaign started before APG came out). I like the idea of the viper injecting stuff. Really, you can modify this item to use with a lot of classes (like imbuing it with a touch spell that it can inject into you at a later date). Congrats!

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8 aka The Leaping Gnome

Alchemists really need some way to apply metamagic feats or effects to extracts and I think this item is a step in the right direction. Sort of a quicken metamagic rod for Alchemists. Good concept but I agree that the execution needs a little adjustment.

Good luck in round two! (I hope there are some Alchemist archetypes.)


I like the visuals and the basic idea of quick potion drinking, which works well with the theme you chose for it.
I'm not particularly wowed by it, for that it is too close to a fancy rod of quicken spell, but I still like it a lot. I think for me this one falls right somewhere in the middle.

I'd add my voice to the sentiment that the damage seems to be quite high, but a big offset is necessary to keep its price from exploding, since it is not limited in uses per day.

if you step up a bit and try to be a bit more daring to do something entirely new in your design you might rise to my favorites. Looking forward to your archetype to see if you manage to go that final bit.


Isaac Duplechain wrote:
Alchemist's Viper

Yummy flavor aside, the potential damage you take by using this item is way too high for me to consider it practical or useful.


I see this as being more of cursed item. Rather than damage, perhaps saying that you get fatigued for one round or minute would have beena better way to go. That one little tweak turns it into a really practical item for everyone to use. The consquence of being injected does not surpass the benefit of the item. For me, the Flask of Five Fifths does a much better job of the double liquid deal.

Andoran

This seems really solid to me. It shows that you've got a good imagination, and the imagery is evocative. I think the damage aspect shows that you took Sean's advice about not including a drawback that isn't really a drawback to heart, and that's a good thing. I have to really think before I use one of these things, and that's also good. Watch your formatting in the next rounds!

Congrats on making the top 32.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 aka AWizardInDallas

These are my comments before reading the comments of the judges or others:

This magic item rocks! I even like the grossly understated title. This is a well-executed entry, very well thought out and polished. There's some good stuff going on here. There are no obvious rule holes, except whether Disarm or Steal would succeed in removing the viper, perhaps. We don't know how tightly the viper holds on. My only other worry is that some might see this as monster in magic item form.

I really like that the alchemist's viper is both picturesque yet creepy at the same time and that using it causes damage, though ability damage might be just as good or better than hit points (Con damage comes to mind). I like the reasonably high DC for the save too. Bonus points for making something new for the Advanced Player's Guide. The costing feels right, as do the construction requirements; 1 lb. seems heavy since a potion is just 1 ounce though.

Overall, this is strong entry and one of my favorites so far. :)


I like what this item does.

I don't like the damage dealing part. Players will hate that it makes healing potions less effective than they otherwise would be. Also, it seems like an overly harsh penalty.

Why are mutagens not usable with this item?

I would prefer to see the following sentence

The wearer can use the alchemist's viper with any potion, an extract created with the infusion class feature, or his own extracts if the wearer is an alchemist

be something like

The wearer can use the alchemist's viper with any potion, alchemist extract, or alchemist mutagen.


I think putting the damage at 1d4 and leaving it there would have been fine -- I hate mechanical attacks that do scaling damage -- why should the fangs be bigger/nastier on a haste potion than on a mage armor potion?

Other than that one little thing I really like this one too -- though it seems more mechanical than magical -- but hey that's not always bad either!

Grand Lodge

Congratulations!

Power Word Unzip wrote:
Yummy flavor aside, the potential damage you take by using this item is way too high for me to consider it practical or useful.

Yeah, I am kind of with him on this one. Perhaps a flat damage/level or smaller damage die (like d4 or even d2) would make this a. The image calls up a snake's fangs penatrating the skin... not, say, a Greatsword (2d6).

Lots of "economy of action" items it seems.

Osirion RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4 , Star Voter 2013 aka raidou

Issac, welcome to the competition! I think the item's core concept is sound enough, if not groundbreaking. Its theme certainly fits the visual. It does need some mechanical tweaking. Self-damage is higher than it should be, and the price seems on the high side. Your next challenge will be another mechanical one, as you'll have to balance class abilities. Take the mechanical critiques above to heart when developing your archetype and you'll do fine. Best of luck in future rounds!

Andoran RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 aka Bats Kabber

Congratulations!!

I like what you were going for here, but not my favorite item. (for many of the reasons listed above)

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 aka Hydro

Jim Groves wrote:

I think I understand about the damage, you want it to scale in proportion to the CL of the potion or extract. You don’t want this to be a cheap quicken feat for high level effects. That’s great if it’s true, because it tells me that you’re looking at the big picture in terms of mechanics. At the same time, I’m not sure this is the best solution. I would make it a flat amount of damage, no save, and limit the level of potion and extract it can “inject”, just like delayed consumption does.

What Jim said.

Nice work here though, this is a useful effect in a very cool package.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8 aka Mistah J

Congratulations on making the Top 32!

This is the second 'double potion' item I've read and I like this one too. I like the fact that you added in the alchemist stuff and I really like that you added a drawback too but the scaling damage seems a little wonky. I understand that this item gets better with higher level stuff in it so it makes sense to have a higher cost. I just don't think the bite getting worse was the best choice.

Very flavourful though,
Great Item!

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Okay. I appreciate all the comments and I'd like to answer some of the questions/concerns. I'm glad it grew on the judges.

1. Inspiration: I came up with the item to fill a hole that I'd noticed, in which alchemists didn't have access to Quicken effects. I added regular potions because I don't like class-specific items.

2. The cost: I had a bit of a tough time with the cost. I tried a few formulas and couldn't get to an amount that felt right, so I looked at existing magic items for inspiration. Lesser Metamagic Quicken Rod is 35K, while regular is 75.5K. It's not a perfect fit, as it can be used as many times per day as you can handle as long as you have the preparation time and can't nova, but it provided something for comparison. I came to the conclusion that it is weaker than LMQR because of the preparation time, wrist slot, and the drawback, which set it as my upper cap. Ring of Spell Storing (minor) is 18K, which was similar in a vague waym which set my lower cap.

At the end of it, I went with the simple route of comparing it to other items and saying, "Which would I rather spend my hard-earned gold on as a PC?" Once I started getting below 30K, the Viper began to start getting picked more and more often. When I got around 25K, the Viper began winning most of the time. By the time I got to 18K, it was winning almost every time. The 'sweet spot' of comparisons seemed to be between 25K-30K. While trying to figure a formula to justify it, I took the cost of LMQR and MQR, averaged them, and divided by two. It ended up being 27.5K.

3. The drawback: In my mind, the flavor of the damage is not the bite, but rather the sudden injection of something foreign into the bloodstream, which explains the Fortitude save. I see how that's not really reflected in the text. As for the damage, Jim Groves's comments hit it right on the nail for the reasoning. I was a little wary with Quicken effects, especially since I wanted it to work with up to level 6 extracts. (While I did consider that it could be split up into higher and lower versions, somehow I never considered submitting one of them.)

Thus came the damage drawback, which in my (fairly limited) number crunching, didn't seem remarkably onerous. I wanted something that was difficult to abuse, but handy enough to use. The item's expense kept its usage (generally) to PCs of at least 7th level. The average 7th level alchemist has a minimum of around 45 hit points. Activating 3rd level extracts, the damage would be 3d6, an average of 10.5; the Fortitude save is at least a +5. On a quick sample gnome alchemist with 16 Con, he has at least a +8 Fortitude, making the odds of taking half damage better than even.

4. Mutagens: I decided not to put mutagens or other liquids in because I didn't want to clutter it too much with rules about how they interact with the drawback. On further consideration, if I had the extra words, I would probably allow any other mutagen/antitoxin/etc with a flat 1d6.

Sorry if this got a little rambly. I started writing it, went to class, came back, and finished it.

@Quandary It's taken me a few readings of Iron Cobra to see what you're saying. I'd barely looked at that monster before, and I visually skipped over the line about potions a few times until I caught it. Drat. Well, Alchemist's Viper has a few advantages, including faster reload time, more difficult to destroy, but I definitely see your point now.

Andoran Dedicated Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really like the concept here. I like that it requires you to take damage to be able to imbibe an extra potion in a round.

I do think, though, that I’d have let it store more than one potion at a time, but otherwise, I like it.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013

Ouch. Snakes are creepy. But this item could be useful. Swift actions are rare in PF so I like the idea of adding one in, especially one this useful. The HP cost is steep enough to enforce some caution I'd think in overusing the item.

Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Congratulations Isaac!
Strength (Overall): 14
Dexterity (see time in my campaign): 16
Constitution (long-time keeper): 12
Intelligence (mechanics): 12
Wisdom (writing craft): 14
Charisma (flavor/visuals): 16

Great choice with alchemist. I like a quicken potion idea. Limiting it to only prepared potion is a smart choice. I"ll dito many of the above concerns. The snake image is appropriate for the mechanics and a great bonus for a herper like me.

My apologies for being such a slow reader and not getting you feedback sooner. Again, congratulations and good luck! :)

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013 aka Shadow-Mask

Snakes creep me out, but I like what this one does. The "cost" of using the item scales with the potions used. For me, this item simplifies the decision on whether my character uses it or not in a specific encounter- especially when it's combat.

Congratulations and good luck in later rounds.


Isaac Duplechain wrote:

Alchemist's Viper

moderate transmutation; CL 13th
Slot wrists; Price 27,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This emerald-adorned, serpentine bracelet slowly moves around the wearer's wrist and allows the wearer to quickly inject a potion or an alchemist's extract into his bloodstream, bypassing the imbibing process. At will as a swift action, the wearer may activate a prepared extract or potion as if he had drank it. The fangs of the serpent bite down on the wearer's wrist to make the injection, dealing 1d6 damage per formula level of the extract or spell level of the potion to the wearer (a DC 18 Fortitude save reduces the damage by half). Preparing an extract or potion for injection is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The extract or potion is poured into the mouth of the serpent, which can hold one extract or potion at a time. The wearer can use the alchemist's viper with any potion, an extract created with the infusion class feature, or his own extracts if the wearer is an alchemist.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, delayed consumption, animate objects; Cost 13,750 gp

Disclaimer:

Ask A RPGSuperstar Succubus is posting from the point of view of a CE aligned succubus – fairness is an adjective applicable to hair coloration, balance is what a couple of mortals on opposite ends of a plank pivoted on a rocky spire above a drop of several hundred feet into a pool of molten basalt frantically try to do, and logic is something which proves anything a demon of adequate status and charm requires it to demonstrate.

Is the item Pretty?
Emeralds!!!! Ohhh, shiny. And the majority of the bracelet is fashioned from serpentine... Well, given the snaky theme, that's an appropriate choice of rock/mineral one might say.

Does the item help a demonic seductress to keep a paladin house pet?
Not at all.

Is the item otherwise useful?
Well, in theory if you're one of those robust physical types who likes taking damage...

Other Comments? (including World Domination potential on the evil laughter scale, where appropriate)
Finally: a piece of jewellery that looks like a piece of jewellery, of masterwork craftsmanship, and which is in delightful constant snaky motion! Taking damage to gain an effect from a potion has no appeal, and if I practised alchemy I doubt it would to gain any debateable benefit from one of their extracts, but it's a nice bracelet, and I don't care! No, make that a very nice bracelet.

Gollum Rating:
My prrreciousss! (Ahem.)


Isaac Duplechain wrote:
@Quandary It's taken me a few readings of Iron Cobra to see what you're saying. I'd barely looked at that monster before, and I visually skipped over the line about potions a few times until I caught it. Drat. Well, Alchemist's Viper has a few advantages, including faster reload time, more difficult to destroy, but I definitely see your point now.

Yeah, that feature of the Iron Cobra isn`t really put out there up front at all, even though it`s really one of the most game-changing ones. Personally, I think Iron Cobra is rather under-costed because of that... The `trade-off` of yours (scaling damage) may have been a bit too harsh, but the fact you recognized the huge value of action economy boosting and tried to address it is a good sign... Good luck!

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32, 2012 Top 4

Great imagery here, and the damage trade-off for getting a free potion is an interesting touch. I think it would be cooler if the snake had a 5-foot reach and could dispense a potion to a nearby ally as a free action.

This item definitely has some mojo. Good job!


Isaac Duplechain wrote:

Alchemist's Viper

moderate transmutation

Personally I love the "concept" of the Alchemist. I've played many of them before there ever was an official format for them. I can't say I'm super happy with the Alchemist archetype, but it's potential is there.

This item adds to that. Though I think the damage could actually be a bit high at lower levels, the GP cost of the item pretty much assures its going to be an item for higher level characters. That being the case, I think it's spot on.

Great job!

Ken

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013

I have become addicted to the alchemist class. This is super-cool. I do think the injection damage is a little high, other injection items I've seen deal one point of damage, but I guess this is due to the swift action time. Still, 6D6 for a high level extract is quite a lot, it almost forces me to spend another action to heal. That's a high-end case though. Perhaps 1/level over 1D6/level and no save might have been better? I would have also liked to see other injectables. Drugs and mutagens seem ideal for this application.

Otherwise and excellent item, I want one for my alchemist!

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 aka Gamer Girrl

Yeowch! I really like the imagery, like that it hurts you to help you, and it fits with the off-kilter mentality I see in the alchemist. Not sure I'd want one on my wrist, but I could see it being wanted by some of my players.

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