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I don't have much experience with grappling so I thought I'd ask this question inspired by a similar thread.
Hypothetical situation...
If you Grapple a creature, then Pin the creature and finally manage to Tie Up the creature....Does the creature ever become Helpless? (I guess if they can't break their restraints)
Part of the helpless description also refers to a creature that is "bound", but the grapple section of the rules never refers to this.
Can you ever upgrade to helpless in this way?
Given that ´tied up´ and ´bound´ are practically synonyms,
yes, that´s a way to get them helpless IMHO.
Tied up is not Helpless... it is a permanent (as long as bindings remain) form of Pinned. Rules for Pinned are specific, and not the same as Helpless. You can't Coup-de-grace a tied up creature for instance, since even though they can't react properly they can still lurch themselves from side to side etc. The description of Helpless includes the standard methods of achieving it.
Tied up is not Helpless...
However, in the description for Helpless one of the ways to achieve it is if a creature is "bound" as Quandary noted.
If Tying a creature up does not constitute binding a creature, then what does?
Tied up is not Helpless...However, in the description for Helpless one of the ways to achieve it is if a creature is "bound" as Quandary noted.
If Tying a creature up does not constitute binding a creature, then what does?
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin.
^^This is what tie up does, very specifically-pinned.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
^^This is the definition of pinned. A pinned player can take very few actions, is flat-footed and has a penalty to AC. They are not completely at an opponents mercy.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Helpless people can't do anything at all, and have no dexterity whatsoever, not just flat-footed. I guess what needs to be defined is the meaning of 'bound', but since tied up is already clearly spelled out it must be something different.
Sigh... yet another term to be defined...
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I guess what needs to be defined is the meaning of 'bound', but since tied up is already clearly spelled out it must be something different.
It seems consistent to say that being tied up, also known as bound, works like being pinned, except that you are helpless and the only way to get out is by an Escape Artist check. The latter is already different from the pinned condition, which would allow you a grapple check to escape.
It might also work if "bound" means tied up with a DC to escape higher than 20 + victim's CMB (i.e. impossible to escape).
Bound as an even more restrictive form of being tied up?
Given there is no actual definition for what constitutes bound in the rules, I'm not sure what you're getting at. If a person achieves a state that is "bound" they are by definition now Helpless.
How does a person become "bound"? I submit it is that they are unable to break their bonds (even with a natural 20) as Starglim suggested.
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As far as I'm concerned tied up = bound = helpless =/= pinned. When it says it works like a pin effect, I believe it is referring to the process of how you would go about tying them up (the kinds of checks and rolls that are required) not describing the effects of being tied up.
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Tied up is not Helpless...However, in the description for Helpless one of the ways to achieve it is if a creature is "bound" as Quandary noted.
If Tying a creature up does not constitute binding a creature, then what does?
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin.
^^This is what tie up does, very specifically-pinned.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
^^This is the definition of pinned. A pinned player can take very few actions, is flat-footed and has a penalty to AC. They are not completely at an opponents mercy.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Helpless people can't do anything at all, and have no dexterity whatsoever, not just flat-footed. I...
Thus pinned = bound. Says so right in the definition that you gave:
Pinned:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.Helpless:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.
How is Pinned/tied-up not bound?
I like Ravingdorks version... it would certainly make my grappling fighter way better if she could get some auto coup-de-graces in
I like Ravingdorks version... it would certainly make my grappling fighter way better if she could get some auto coup-de-graces in
As much fun as it seems, the Auto coup is something that I don't think they intended. I'll stick the grapple-pin-tied-up if inescapable then helpless.
Pin =/= helpless imo, even if bound is thrown in there as pin is fully described and in no way correlates to helpless.
Bump & FAQed.
This question is important for users of the new whip feat chain from Ultimate Combat.
Don't know what the exact source is, but in the combat section of the pfsrd, there is this sidebar:
Tied Up?
A creature that is tied up is "bound" which means it has the Helpless condition.
Hope this ends the confusion :P
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This is the last line of the Tie Up section:
If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Therefore, if the DC is high enough that you cannot escape, you should be helpless.
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Man, who is the OP who posts all these poignant topics?
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If you ignore 'bound' under the Helpless condition, you are left with paralyzed, held, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. These conditions indicate a target that is immobile and unable to react to an attack.
A target that is bound at the wrist and legs is still able to react, thrash about, etc. I would call a bound person Helpless if they were so secure that they were unable to react to an attack (such as being tied to a table at the wrist, ankle, waist, head, and blind-folded and ears covered, etc).
For the most part, 'bound' does not fit with the rest of the conditions under 'Helpless'. It would have been better if it was left off that list.
Don't know what the exact source is, but in the combat section of the pfsrd, there is this sidebar:Hope this ends the confusion :PTied Up?
A creature that is tied up is "bound" which means it has the Helpless condition.
d20pfsrd.com is a fan site. A very useful and comprehensive fan site, but a fan site. But any text in it that does not come straight from the PRD or straight from one of Paizo's books is fan made text and not an official ruling. That sidebar appears to be a call made by one of the site maintainers; I cannot find it in the rules or FAQ anywhere.
My interpretation is helpless is situation where you cannot physically act at all.
You can physically act while being pinned ("a pinned creature can always try to free itself"). You can usually physically act while being tied up (at least to try to break your bonds).
Further, "pinned" and "helpless" are two conditions, each which inflict their own penalties. Some of these penalties CANNOT exist at the same time (when you are pinned you are denied your Dexterity bonus--but your Dex is not penalized further--; when you are helpless you are treated as having a Dexterity of 0, which means you are completely incapable of movement and your Dexterity modifier is -5 if it matters. These two situations cannot exist at the same time--especially since, again, a pinned character CAN physically act to free himself and thus it is impossible he could have a Dexterity of 0).
Being tied up -- should being tied up automatically reduce your Dexterity to 0?
Something's wrong there. Sure, I can see circumstances where being tied up renders you utterly incapable of movement--but not immediately so. If someone's tied up but could still struggle and roll around and try to break free, they're not helpless. If someone's absolutely bound head to foot and further tied to an object that keeps them immobile and cannot move at all... then they're probably helpless. There's probably not a firm definition here because it's circumstantial and probably it's really best to let the GM make the call as to how severely "bound" (and helpless or not) the character is.
I think maybe the real problem is the removal of the Use Rope ability (understandable though it was, as it was circumstantial). "Bound" in 3.5 meant specifically that someone used the Use Rope skill on you, and you were unable to beat the Use Rope result with your Escape Artist check. The rules for tying someone up are now tied to grappling and involve Dexterity checks and Strength checks and still Escape Artist checks and honestly I don't remember what the permutations all do. But the "bound" wording could be a 3.x artifact that is in fact no longer relevant to Pathfinder rules.
It's probably just one of those imprecise abstractions. For instanceDon't know what the exact source is, but in the combat section of the pfsrd, there is this sidebar:Something's wrong there. Sure, I can see circumstances where being tied up renders you utterly incapable of movement--but not immediately so. If someone's tied up but could still struggle and roll around and try to break free, they're not helpless. If someone's absolutely bound head to foot and further tied to an object that keeps them immobile and cannot move at all... then they're probably...Hope this ends the confusion :PTied Up?
A creature that is tied up is "bound" which means it has the Helpless condition.
Manacles can bind a Medium creature.
I never saw someone in manacle as having the helpless condition. Yet the only condition manacles bestow is bound, which in turn is a member of "helpless." I would say the developers intended them to be helpless, but only because they lacked a simple and superior way to describe the condition.