I feel that Tarquin could make his grave villain-class error at the moment...
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But at least we now know why Tarquin insisted on having Haley participating in the conversation.
I feel that Tarquin could make his grave villain-class error at the moment...
He may have just done so.
If I recall correctly, Belkar is still pretty badly hurt, and that's a lot of incoming arrows. Durkon healed Roy so we can assume he's not on the verge of death, but still, that's a lot of incoming arrows.
Their best bet would be to get into melee as quickly as possible I think. Roy and Durkon shouldn't really be in much danger from a bunch of minions. Durkon might not even be touchable by them.
Yeah, it seems like if V doesn't show up now, there's not much point in the whole V subplot...
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Coming in a bit late, but on the topic of Miko, she was clearly set up to be an example of the stereotypical lawful stupid paladin. People who think paladins should be played that way seem to think that if the paladin makes one tiny error anywhere, they're going to fall, so they have to walk around with a stick up their butt at all times. Miko showed what it really takes to fall, while obeying their bad stereotype to the letter.
In the mean time, other paladins like O-Chul and the rest of the Azure City crew showed what a paladin really should be.
As someone who is constantly defending paladins on these boards from people who claim that anyone playing a paladin in PFS is breaking the "Don't be a jerk" rule just by their class choice, I absolutely loved the way Rich handled Miko and the other paladins.
As for the latest comic, I agree with Adamantine Dragon. If V doesn't show up in the next comic to save the day, then what the hell??? And with Elan and Haley standing right next to Tarquin, I really think that this could turn into the final duel right here, which I wasn't expecting to happen for quite a while yet.
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If V does not show up to save the day, I could see Roy, Belkar and Durkon hopping through the portal, V showing up after the fact and V, Elan and Haley heading through to rescue them ... under the leadership of Elan (because it's what a hero would do ... and Tarquin would "approve" of that turn of events).
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If V does not show up to save the day, I could see Roy, Belkar and Durkon hopping through the portal, V showing up after the fact and V, Elan and Haley heading through to rescue them ... under the leadership of Elan (because it's what a hero would do ... and Tarquin would "approve" of that turn of events).
Except that Haley is the 2nd in command behind Roy, so Elan still wouldn't be in charge of such a backup team. Tarquin wouldn't approve.
I think it's about time to get the whole Order back together and kick Tarquin's butt.
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Now here's an interesting thought. The three fiends seem to want the Order of the Stick to stay in the field of play for now, and they'd see Tarquin as just an obstacle. So not only are they likely to intentionally send V back to save the day, but I'm thinking they might send Sabine along to help. She'd certainly be motivated to help fight Tarquin. Whether she'd stay to travel with the Order afterward is another story.
But if Sabine ends up joining the Order, at least temporarily, then the good/evil ratio in the Order of the Stick will hit exactly 50/50. Ironically, that probably includes the pets, as the cat and raven would both count as neutral. The cat due to being a dumb animal, and the raven due to sharing his (her?) master's alignment.
I can't believe I never thought of this before, but has the raven's gender ever been identified, or does the bird have the same gender issues as its master?
That's bad.
But it could be worse. Belkar took out an army on his own in the Battle for Azure City. Remember the "I am a sexy shoeless god of war!" comic?
There's 3 PC's plus a summoned beastie there. It'll hurt, but I think they could do it, espicially if V turns up...
-Aaron
One of the differences between that event and this one is the over-all level of power the Order is facing. It might be a similar situation, sure, especially since the Order as a whole are more powerful, but it could still turn badly very quickly for them.
Also, Tarquin's game might not care at this point if Elan successfully kills him... in fact, he might be banking on it.
Elan would certainly become "the hero" in this case, and it would be more or less due to Tarquin.
I think it's a good point that the three fiends might send V and/or Sabine back at this point. We shall see.
So, how could this get any worse? Hmm, maybe V making another deal with the three infernal stooges to save his comrades?
Now here's an interesting thought. The three fiends seem to want the Order of the Stick to stay in the field of play for now, and they'd see Tarquin as just an obstacle. So not only are they likely to intentionally send V back to save the day, but I'm thinking they might send Sabine along to help. She'd certainly be motivated to help fight Tarquin. Whether she'd stay to travel with the Order afterward is another story.
But if Sabine ends up joining the Order, at least temporarily, then the good/evil ratio in the Order of the Stick will hit exactly 50/50.
That is assuming Haley is CG, she isn't unless something has changed. The Good/Evil ratio would actually shift in Evil's favor if Sabine stayed around.
On the other hand, I really doubt Sabine would stick around once Tarquin was dead.
She's not? I was under the impression she and Elan were CG, Durkon and Roy were LG (prior to Durkula), V was TN, and Belkar was CE.
She's not? I was under the impression she and Elan were CG, Durkon and Roy were LG (prior to Durkula), V was TN, and Belkar was CE.
She was pretty clearly CN originally. But her morality has shifted over the course of the comic; it got to the point around when Belker had activated his mark that she was actually talking about feeling responsibility for people other than herself and desiring their good, not just for herself (and, not, it was implied, just for herself and Elan).
I'm suspecting that Belker is slowly beginning to shift toward CN, though I don't know he'll ever actually get there. Right now he's pretty CE, though he's definitively reconsidering, based on his dreams and comments.
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Yeah, I've been assuming Haley was CG. I could swear it was actually stated outright at some point, but I can't remember when.
Yes, she was greedy and seemed neutral at first, but even then, her greed was motivated by wanting to save her father. The way she led the rebellion in Azure City after Roy's death, freed Tarquin's slaves just because she had spare time, and other examples I can't think of right now off the top of my head are clearly good acts. She has worked to help others repeatedly ever since Azure City, at least. There's really no doubt in my mind that she's good aligned these days, even if she did start out neutral, which is questionable.
Even with good reason CG characters don't cold-bloodedly & calculatingly murder people, even if they deserve it. Which Haley has done, since Belkar's Mark was activated. Haley is still CN, she may have some Good leanings, but I'm pretty sure she's still CN.
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Even with good reason CG characters don't cold-bloodedly & calculatingly murder people, even if they deserve it. Which Haley has done, since Belkar's Mark was activated. Haley is still CN, she may have some Good leanings, but I'm pretty sure she's still CN.
You mean her rival in the thieves' guild? She was clearly evil, so eliminating her outside of the law is something a CG aligned person might do. The fact that her motivation was mostly personal, not just trying to make the world a better place, doesn't make it evil. The fact is that Haley wouldn't do that against someone who she didn't know for a fact was evil, and she knew that her murder would save innocent lives in the long run.
That's the only one I can think of right now, other than the hobgoblins they met on their way out of Azure City, but that was before Belkar activated his mark.
And yes, I know that Celia is more good than Haley, but I'd say Haley still qualifies for CG alignment, even if she does slightly border on CN sometimes.
Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.
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Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.
I fail to see how this sort of behavior in killing an evil creature is in any way counter to chaotic good behavior. Sure I wouldn't expect it of a LAWFUL good character but chaotic good? Absolutely.
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Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.I fail to see how this sort of behavior in killing an evil creature is in any way counter to chaotic good behavior. Sure I wouldn't expect it of a LAWFUL good character but chaotic good? Absolutely.
Exactly. If the target was a goblin living in a dungeon, we wouldn't be having this conversation, even if the goblin happened to be taking a shower. As long as target is known to be actively evil, a chaotic good adventurer can assassinate them anywhere.
Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.
There's a bit more to it than that. There is a deleted scene in the published edition of the latest book that showed how Haley and the Thieves Guild got Roy's body back. At the end, we saw Bozzok and Crystal planning to screw over Haley, and we also saw her overhear the whole thing. She acted in a preemptive manner, but she had plenty of direct cause.
Because I know the question will be posed: like most deleted scenes, it was cut for time. I'd have to dig out the book to do the math, but we'd be a decent way back in the storyline if Rich had left it in.
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And Tarquin keeps on being himself.Then we shall fight in the shade!
Time to cue Vaarsuvius.
Thank God Rich Burlew is not my DM.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.There's a bit more to it than that. There is a deleted scene in the published edition of the latest book that showed how Haley and the Thieves Guild got Roy's body back. At the end, we saw Bozzok and Crystal planning to screw over Haley, and we also saw her overhear the whole thing. She acted in a preemptive manner, but she had plenty of direct cause.
Because I know the question will be posed: like most deleted scenes, it was cut for time. I'd have to dig out the book to do the math, but we'd be a decent way back in the storyline if Rich had left it in.
I'm glad someone else has the compilations with the deleted strips - I was about to make the exact same point. Haley's surprise murder is not nearly as surprising and significantly more justified within the context of the deleted strips.
My memory is that it's only 3-4 strips that are cut, but they interrupted the flow of the action. That was a pretty fast-moving section of the story, and very tense. Layering in the Haley stuff would've slowed the pace, and, I think, would've landed right in the middle of V's epic wizarding.
Edit: I think the cut strips would've fit immediately before or after this one.
Except V doesn't have any offensive spells prepared. Can't find the comic but he mentioned that he has "turned over a new leaf".
Except V doesn't have any offensive spells prepared. Can't find the comic but he mentioned that he has "turned over a new leaf".
I bet he has defensive spells prepped.
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Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.There's a bit more to it than that. There is a deleted scene in the published edition of the latest book that showed how Haley and the Thieves Guild got Roy's body back. At the end, we saw Bozzok and Crystal planning to screw over Haley, and we also saw her overhear the whole thing. She acted in a preemptive manner, but she had plenty of direct cause.
Because I know the question will be posed: like most deleted scenes, it was cut for time. I'd have to dig out the book to do the math, but we'd be a decent way back in the storyline if Rich had left it in.
I'm glad someone else has the compilations with the deleted strips - I was about to make the exact same point. Haley's surprise murder is not nearly as surprising and significantly more justified within the context of the deleted strips.
My memory is that it's only 3-4 strips that are cut, but they interrupted the flow of the action. That was a pretty fast-moving section of the story, and very tense. Layering in the Haley stuff would've slowed the pace, and, I think, would've landed right in the middle of V's epic wizarding.
Edit: I think the cut strips would've fit immediately before or after this one.
Even without the deleted scenes, Haley was assassinating a known murderer. Her motivation may have been more personal than anything else, but she did make the world a safer place by eliminating Crystal, assuming Crystal doesn't get raised from the dead. That qualifies as chaotic good behavior.
Perhaps they've reached the point where they are actual, full-fledged personalities rather than just "CG rogue" or "NE ranger", entirely capable of acts that are emotionally or logically driven departures from the ideals that they had when they first set out...
...Naw, that's just silly!
There was an entire sequence of strips when Roy first was killed where his behavior was weighed against his alignment. There were noted discrepancies that Roy was warned about, particularly his tendency to be a smart-ass, his dragging of the party onto a personal side-quest to get his sword, and his continued willingness to allow Belkar to be in the party.
When there are major plot-point actions being undertaken by the character it appears that Rich is trying to treat the situations as a GM would and we see clues that when a major action is undertaken that violates an alignment, there are in game consequences.
In other words, following alignment, or straying from it, is an important part of the comic's plot.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Even without the deleted scenes, Haley was assassinating a known murderer. Her motivation may have been more personal than anything else, but she did make the world a safer place by eliminating Crystal, assuming Crystal doesn't get raised from the dead. That qualifies as chaotic good behavior.
I leave the intricacies of the alignment debate about what constitutes good/evil behavior to those fools with enough patience and interest to conduct a proper flamewar. I (and Evan) was just providing additional background which provides more shading to Haley's actions. I leave the ultimate determination of good/evil to their DM/author/creator, which is where such authority is appropriately vested.
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I think that best way for Elan to get to Tarquin is to shift the narrative.
Elan:You don't get it do you? You aren't the main villain! You are the side-quest, the dangling plot thread! You want your climatic battle, well it is going to be the climatic battle of the SIDE-QUEST ! Draw!
Tarquin:Well now that is just hurtful, Son.
Really, Tarquin utterly misses the point since he can only see in tropes.
For the CG versus Murder: Assassin's Creed.
Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.I fail to see how this sort of behavior in killing an evil creature is in any way counter to chaotic good behavior. Sure I wouldn't expect it of a LAWFUL good character but chaotic good? Absolutely.
I didn't say kill, I said murder. Haley wants to kill Crystal in a fight that is one thing, but she had already shown that she was, in fact, more than capable of taking both Crystal & Bozak down so neither were any real threat to her, particularly not as she was, as I said earlier, about to merrily walk away from ever seeing either of them again & she was not going to be alone where they might be able to send someone after her.
She didn't kill Crystal to make the world a better place, she killed Crystal because Crystal pissed her off & the two had hated each other for as long as they had known each other. Yes, I have read the deleted scenes as well, hence my above explanation. Haley is still CN. Just because she has a personal respect for Roy & loves Elan doesn't change that any more than Sabine loving Nale changes the fact that she is still an Evil Succubus (Which is practically, effectively a redundant statement).
I'm not arguing that Haley being CN makes her a bad person, I'm arguing just the opposite in fact. I'm just saying that simply because she hasn't been acting totally poor impulse control recently & she has lately been showing regard for the feelings of people who are important to her, emphasis mine, doesn't mean she has shifted from CN to CG.
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Dude, you don't get to sneak up on a person in the shower, murder them & take their stuff & call yourself a good person, especially when you are about to waltz merrily out of their life anyway.There's a bit more to it than that. There is a deleted scene in the published edition of the latest book that showed how Haley and the Thieves Guild got Roy's body back. At the end, we saw Bozzok and Crystal planning to screw over Haley, and we also saw her overhear the whole thing. She acted in a preemptive manner, but she had plenty of direct cause.
Because I know the question will be posed: like most deleted scenes, it was cut for time. I'd have to dig out the book to do the math, but we'd be a decent way back in the storyline if Rich had left it in.
I'm glad someone else has the compilations with the deleted strips - I was about to make the exact same point. Haley's surprise murder is not nearly as surprising and significantly more justified within the context of the deleted strips.
My memory is that it's only 3-4 strips that are cut, but they interrupted the flow of the action. That was a pretty fast-moving section of the story, and very tense. Layering in the Haley stuff would've slowed the pace, and, I think, would've landed right in the middle of V's epic wizarding.
Edit: I think the cut strips would've fit immediately before or after this one.
In a similar vein to deleted scenes, after having read Start of Darkness, I find it to be integral to the plot. We not only see the origin and reasoning behind Redcloak. We also get a peak into the tragic villain that he truly is. Plus we get to see more truly masterfully evil moments from Xykon and why he is not a being you trifle with lightly. Further, there are some very important plot points that if you don't read the book are going to hit you from left field. I sometimes really question the lack of inclusion of some of the extras. I understand it would slow the pacing of the narrative in some places, but these plot points seem important enough that they should be included in the main story.
Kill and Murder are synonyms... In reality to get an easily confirmed kill under 3.5/Pathfinder rules one would need to commit Murder. This is do to the fact that the opponent only falls unconscious and might have stabilized.
Kill and Murder are synonyms... In reality to get an easily confirmed kill under 3.5/Pathfinder rules one would need to commit Murder. This is do to the fact that the opponent only falls unconscious and might have stabilized.
The fact that you either honestly can't tell the difference between killing & murder or can & are arguing against there being one only re-iterates why you just don't get it...
Killing and Murder are Synonyms. It is Modern Society that has given then the illusion of different meanings.
The both are taking a life. Which I find hilarious is most older cultures view even killing a tree as murder/killing. Heck, most languages Kill, Murder and their derived words are the same word!
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Incorrect. Even Biblical-era societies had different terms for "kill" versus "murder" (for example, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a mistranslation - the word used for "kill" there is better translated "murder" because it holds the implication of deliberate intent. The KJV translation is the only one to get this wrong, as far as I'm aware; almost all other translations correctly use "murder"), and different ways of handling person-inflicted deaths based on the situation, the nature of the crime, and the intent.
"Kill" is the general term - for whenever one human's life is ended by anything other than disease (and even then only if the disease is not deliberately inflicted by another), accidental injury, or age. "Murder" is more specific - it implies intent, malice, and that the one who did the killing be another human. (An animal would kill a person, but not murder them. Anyone who is using murder that way - saying an animal or other nonhuman force would murder someone - is at the very least grammatically incorrect, or misusing the word for the purpose of emphasis on the brutality of the event.)
For further information. Note the specific definition of murder:
The elements of common law murder are:
1. Unlawful
2. killing
3. of a human
4. by another human
5. with malice aforethought.
Killing is part of murder. Not all killings have murder as a part of them.
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The fact that you either honestly can't tell the difference between killing & murder or can & are arguing against there being one only re-iterates why you just don't get it...
I don't think you get the point.
Murder is a legal definition. By its very construction its irrelevant to a chaotic good character. I think you're looking for a different word.
Would you have a problem with it if Haley had broken into Crystals room , let her get a dagger, and then fought to the death? It would still be murder (since crystal has a legal right to self defense at that point) but less underhanded.
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I don't for an instant disagree with the idea that murder is different than killing. What I am saying is that chaotic good characters are perfectly capable of choosing to murder confirmed evil creatures in cold blood.
They can do it. There is no alignment problem with doing so. Murdering evil beings is not beyond the pale for chaotic good characters.
Murder is UNLAWFUL. In the context of THIS GAME, murder of evil creatures is not IMMORAL. Adventurers murder evil creatures in cold blood ALL THE TIME. Why do you think they are called "murder hobos"? How many times have you heard of the paladin (PALADIN!) who uses "detect evil" and immediately charges and smites the unarmed and unprovoking evil creature?
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Darn, I was hoping this flurry of posting meant new comic... :P
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I don't for an instant disagree with the idea that murder is different than killing. What I am saying is that chaotic good characters are perfectly capable of choosing to murder confirmed evil creatures in cold blood.
They can do it. There is no alignment problem with doing so. Murdering evil beings is not beyond the pale for chaotic good characters.
Murder is UNLAWFUL. In the context of THIS GAME, murder of evil creatures is not IMMORAL. Adventurers murder evil creatures in cold blood ALL THE TIME. Why do you think they are called "murder hobos"? How many times have you heard of the paladin (PALADIN!) who uses "detect evil" and immediately charges and smites the unarmed and unprovoking evil creature?
While I agree with you, I would have a problem with a paladin doing that. I don't put up with lawful stupid.
Yes, Haley murdered Crystal in cold blood. She did it for personal reasons. But she wouldn't have done that to someone who wasn't an evil murderer herself. Haley did know that killing the Crystal would protect future innocent victims from Crystal's evil. Thus, I'm with Adamantine Dragon and others who don't think her actions are even remotely immoral. Within the context of the game, this was something a CG aligned person would do.
And Irnk, Haley doesn't just do "good" things when it comes to people who are close to her. If she did, she wouldn't have lead the rebellion to protect the Azure City survivors from the goblins. Or freed a bunch of Tarquin's random slaves just because she had some free time on her hands. To me, that last panel really proves that Haley is good, while V is neutral.
Fromper, I agree that paladins should not blindly attack unprovoking creatures simply because they detect as "evil." But it's a very common thing that I see in game play, and usually the table reacts not with "that's totally not acceptable from an alignment perspective" Instead what I hear is "Stop being 'lawful stupid'."
I don't even think it's 'lawful stupid' behavior. In fact when paladins act that way in my campaigns, they are warned that such behavior is outside the bounds of what I consider to be acceptable paladin behavior.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Darn, I was hoping this flurry of posting meant new comic... :P
But it's an alignment debate! It's entertaining and not at all like watching a bunch of people masturbate about their personal and deep philosophical understanding of the absolute nature of good and evil! Maybe if we're lucky, someone will break out the old "ends justify the means" chestnut so everyone can pound their chest over that.
Aw, f@~~ it. I'm flagging that s!@@ as off topic.
Darn, I was hoping this flurry of posting meant new comic... :P
But there is a new one, so you were right for the wrong reasons!
V, where is V.... This has to have taken quite a bit longer than the time V's soul was supposed to be in hell. I mean Tarquin had time to march an entire friggin' ARMY to the crater and surround them, have a leisurely conversation with Nale and then Elan, all before any attack was ordered. That would take hours to accomplish.
C'mon Rich! Where is V?
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Ooh! New comic! I'm so distracted I forgot about the alignment debate!
Nice cleave by Roy - insta-kill on both the dino and its rider in one sword swing. And Durkon shows off his shiny new vampire DR by walking around with arrows sticking out of his head and no blood coming out.
Speaking of alignment, I think we can all agree that Tarquin has just taken lawful evil to a whole new place. And I thought Darth Vader trying to recruit Luke to "end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy" was the ultimate example of lawful evil. Tarquin just took it one step further. The safety of the world is meaningless without proper story structure??? He's so meta, I'm half expecting him to pull an Animal Man next: "I can see you!"
I am surprised Haley and Elan went to help Roy and the others with the troops instead of flanking Tarquin, though. The more I think about it, the more I want Haley and the rest of the team to kill Tarquin instead of Elan. If Elan brings him down, then Tarquin's right about his place in the narrative. But going down to a sneak attack he never saw coming would not only kill him, but also disgrace him.