Can a 1st level wizard use a wand with a 4th level spell?


Rules Questions


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Can a 1st level wizard use a wand that contains a fourth level wizard spell, such as black tentacles, ice storm, wall of fire, etc.?

The "Using Magic Items" rules at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Using-Items seem to indicate that he could, even though he's not high enough level to cast a 4th level spell.

Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method..


UndeadViking wrote:
Can a 1st level wizard use a wand that contains a fourth level wizard spell, such as black tentacles, ice storm, wall of fire, etc.?

Yup. It just needs to be on your spell list.

He could even use a wand of Legend Lore (a 6th level wizard spell), assuming he could find a bard capable of making one.


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In fact, you do not even need to be able to cast spells yet for classes like Paladin. You just need a level in a class that can eventually cast that spell. So a first level Paladin could use a wand of Restoration (4th level paladin spell).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
UndeadViking wrote:
Can a 1st level wizard use a wand that contains a fourth level wizard spell, such as black tentacles, ice storm, wall of fire, etc.?

Yup. It just needs to be on your spell list.

He could even use a wand of Legend Lore (a 6th level wizard spell), assuming he could find a bard capable of making one.

Wands are restricted to fourth level spells. The bardic version is technicaly not on his spell list. The real problem is finding a spontaneous caster who'd bother to master Craft Wand.


Sorcerers with Craft Wand get access to lots more spells. Rogue with Skill Focus(UMD) have extra incentive to get wands.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
hogarth wrote:
UndeadViking wrote:
Can a 1st level wizard use a wand that contains a fourth level wizard spell, such as black tentacles, ice storm, wall of fire, etc.?

Yup. It just needs to be on your spell list.

He could even use a wand of Legend Lore (a 6th level wizard spell), assuming he could find a bard capable of making one.

Wands are restricted to fourth level spells. The bardic version is technicaly not on his spell list. The real problem is finding a spontaneous caster who'd bother to master Craft Wand.

I'm gonna disagree with this. If a spell is on the spell list, it's on the spell list. The list is by name, not by "version." Under the different version theory, a bard couldn't use a wand of cure light wounds made by a cleric, since the cleric version isn't on his spell list.

A bard could make the wand. If the wand were made, anyone with legend lore on his spell list could use it.

Likewise with a ranger made wand of resist energy (1st level spell for ranger, 2nd level for others), a paladin made wand of lesser restoration, and any number of spells that have different level from one list to the other.

Same with scrolls, although the arcane/divine caveat is needed. This becomes even more common with scrolls, as a multi-class with wizard 1 gives scribe scroll.

If your PF game is using the 3e healer class, you can have 3rd level potions of restoration as well.

This idea of the spell list being by version just doesn't exist with the exception of the arcane/divine scroll bit.


LazarX wrote:
hogarth wrote:
UndeadViking wrote:
Can a 1st level wizard use a wand that contains a fourth level wizard spell, such as black tentacles, ice storm, wall of fire, etc.?

Yup. It just needs to be on your spell list.

He could even use a wand of Legend Lore (a 6th level wizard spell), assuming he could find a bard capable of making one.

Wands are restricted to fourth level spells. The bardic version is technicaly not on his spell list. The real problem is finding a spontaneous caster who'd bother to master Craft Wand.

Doesn't matter if it is a bard casting it or not - the spell is on their list. As a matter of fact if any spell is available at the lower level, the item is assumed to always be created by the lowest possible cost. Apparently there are quite a few spontaneous casters with Craft Wand.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Legend lore is a 4th level spell for a bard, so a bard could indeed make a wand of legend lore, and a wizard or sorcerer (or anyone else with legend lore on their spell list, regardless of where that spell appears) could use that wand.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Legend lore is a 4th level spell for a bard, so a bard could indeed make a wand of legend lore, and a wizard or sorcerer (or anyone else with legend lore on their spell list, regardless of where that spell appears) could use that wand.

The key question of course is why bother? Bards are spontaneous casters who merely have to spend slots on doing so. Given that they can only craft wands for the spells they know, and what they know is so limited... why would a Bard take such a feat? And crafting such a wand with so limited utility isn't a cheap thing to do.

Technically yes it COULD be done. Practically however expecting to find a bard who both learned that spell and the feat would be like expecting to find a five leaf clover. Anyone who subscribes to any version of "Naturalism" would be hard pressed to explain the existence of such a wand.


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LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Legend lore is a 4th level spell for a bard, so a bard could indeed make a wand of legend lore, and a wizard or sorcerer (or anyone else with legend lore on their spell list, regardless of where that spell appears) could use that wand.

The key question of course is why bother? Bards are spontaneous casters who merely have to spend slots on doing so. Given that they can only craft wands for the spells they know, and what they know is so limited... why would a Bard take such a feat? And crafting such a wand with so limited utility isn't a cheap thing to do.

Technically yes it COULD be done. Practically however expecting to find a bard who both learned that spell and the feat would be like expecting to find a five leaf clover. Anyone who subscribes to any version of "Naturalism" would be hard pressed to explain the existence of such a wand.

The bard doesn't need the feat. Anyone (even an item) can supply the spell for magic item crafting; the spell does not have to be supplied by the same character that has the crafting feat. So a 3rd level wizard could hire a bard to cast legend lore for him as he crafts the wand. Of course, that'd be prohibitively expensive, but it would be entirely within the rules.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zurai wrote:


The bard doesn't need the feat. Anyone (even an item) can supply the spell for magic item crafting; the spell does not have to be supplied by the same character that has the crafting feat. So a 3rd level wizard could hire a bard to cast legend lore for him as he crafts the wand. Of course, that'd be prohibitively expensive, but it would be entirely within the rules.

Again I bring your attention to this pasasge.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.


LazarX wrote:
Zurai wrote:


The bard doesn't need the feat. Anyone (even an item) can supply the spell for magic item crafting; the spell does not have to be supplied by the same character that has the crafting feat. So a 3rd level wizard could hire a bard to cast legend lore for him as he crafts the wand. Of course, that'd be prohibitively expensive, but it would be entirely within the rules.

Again I bring your attention to this pasasge.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

That does not contradict me. As long as you have the spell available in any form for the required number of uses (varies by item), you meet the spell pre-requisites. It's well-established that you can collaborate to craft items.


I am still wanted to know if

""In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""

is referring to

""The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.""

or is refering to

""These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).""

or is it both.

(looks to James Jacobs, sorry dislike asking ya, but will go round and round otherwise)


The second. You MUST have the spell available to create a spell trigger (wand, staff) or spell completion (scroll) item. This is the only time that you must actually have the spell available.


LazarX wrote:

The key question of course is why bother? Bards are spontaneous casters who merely have to spend slots on doing so. Given that they can only craft wands for the spells they know, and what they know is so limited... why would a Bard take such a feat? And crafting such a wand with so limited utility isn't a cheap thing to do.

Technically yes it COULD be done. Practically however expecting to find a bard who both learned that spell and the feat would be like expecting to find a five leaf clover. Anyone who subscribes to any version of "Naturalism" would be hard pressed to explain the existence of such a wand.

Is it not feasible that one day, Bob the Bard (who took Craft Wand so that he could make wands of Cure spells) gets together with Willy the Wizard (who took Craft Wand so he could make wands of True Strike so he wouldn't have to prepare it) to make a Wand of Legend Lore (because Bob is high enough level to cast it, but Willy isn't, since it's a higher-level spell)?

Sure, it wouldn't be as common as wands of Fireball or something, but surely they'd exist.

Liberty's Edge

UndeadViking wrote:

Can a 1st level wizard use a wand that contains a fourth level wizard spell, such as black tentacles, ice storm, wall of fire, etc.?

Yes. In the case of a Wizard triggering a spell which is potentially on his or her spell lists, no level check or Use Magic Device skill check is required when activating the wand. The wand "just works". Deduct a charge and resolve the spell effect without any AOO being provoked.

Scrolls operate differently: when using Spell Completion to cast (as opposed to Spell Trigger,which is how wands operate) a level check would ordinarily be required by a Wizard who has the spell potentially on his or her spell list, but it not as powerful as the caster level of the scroll.

The DC for a scroll level check is Caster Level of the Scroll +1. The player then rolls 1d20 and adds their level to the roll to determine success or failure.

If neither circumstance applies, it may be that in some cases, a UMD skill check may still be used to attempt to activate the wand. So if the Wizard is trying to use a wand of cure light wounds, that's when the Wizard's UMD skill comes into play (and why it can make sense for a Wizard to take at least one rank in the UMD skill).

Despite those who seem hell-bent on fighting a battle over the footnotes of item creation, the OPs question was straightforward and does not need further clarification in the FAQ.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Technically yes it COULD be done. Practically however expecting to find a bard who both learned that spell and the feat would be like expecting to find a five leaf clover. Anyone who subscribes to any version of "Naturalism" would be hard pressed to explain the existence of such a wand.

Once upon a time there was an order dedicated to the recovery of lost knowledge. Members were adventurous types who dedicated themselves to the recover of lost items, histories, etc. Divination magic was quite important to them, as I'm sure it would be clear. In fact, they had a number of spellcasters of all types to aid in these efforts.

One of the challenges to this organization was the fact that one of the best spells for their purposes, legend lore, could take weeks and weeks to cast. Being the wise and thoughtful types that they were, they hatched a cunning plan.

One member of the organization, a wizard with a certain flair and magnetic charm, took a sabbatical to study at the famed Bardic College of Jazz Standards, where he took the name ii7-V7-I7. Several years later, having focused on this aspect of his skills, he found that he could spontaneously cast the beloved legend lore. Making use of his wizardly skills learned and retained from years past, he was able to solve the time intensive problem of the order.

The order funded the production of wands of legend lore. Subsequently, the acolytes of the school regularly were called upon to use these wands to make use of the spell that otherwise was only available to the most skilled of their order. By assigning this task to the lower ranked members of the order, the more skilled were able to spend their time much more productively. No more periods of having to set aside as much as 3 months in the casting of the loved spell. This was left to the grad students...er...acolytes.

In order to help fund additional production and the activities of the order, when such wands are down to only a few charges, they sold at auction and are highly sought after by those who value the pursuit of knowledge. In honor of having accomplished what was otherwise claimed by ancient scholars to be nearly impossible or unlikely, and as a seal of authenticity, each of the wands bears the carved bas relief of a five-leaf clover.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zurai wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Zurai wrote:


The bard doesn't need the feat. Anyone (even an item) can supply the spell for magic item crafting; the spell does not have to be supplied by the same character that has the crafting feat. So a 3rd level wizard could hire a bard to cast legend lore for him as he crafts the wand. Of course, that'd be prohibitively expensive, but it would be entirely within the rules.

Again I bring your attention to this pasasge.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

That does not contradict me. As long as you have the spell available in any form for the required number of uses (varies by item), you meet the spell pre-requisites. It's well-established that you can collaborate to craft items.

I've always read that restriction to mean that the creator must meet the prequisites PERSONALLY. i.e. no dodging around with scrolls, the Master Craftsman feat, or cribbing off other casters. Yes you can collaborate to make items but that doesn't mean that every item can be made by collaboration.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.
Oliver McShade wrote:

I am still wanted to know if

""In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""

is referring to

""The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.""

or is refering to

""These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).""

or is it both.

The real solution is to go with the solution your GM wants to go with. ""In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""

means just that—you can't easilly create a wand of fireball if you (or someone helping you) can't cast fireball. If you tried to make a wand of fireball and you can't cast the spell, the wand's DC to create increases by +5. If you also are lower than caster level 5, it increases by a further +5. Personally, I don't like the "you can still create items without the prerequisites but at a penalty" rule much at all. It only exists to give an in-game reason for why cursed items exist, and in my game, cursed items exist because of other reasons (deliberate creation by crazed spellcasters, items that got "tainted" by exposure to chaotic or evil influences, items that were cursed by a spell, items that are haunted, items that have been tinkered with by strange creatures like gremlins, etc.). Allowing spellcasters to ignore prerequisites and still create the items is just too weird for me, not only because it takes some of the sense of accomplishment away from creating an item, but because it implies that there's a LOT more cursed items in the game than I'm really comfortable with. Cursed items have their place, and that place is NOT at every games session in every other monster treasure.

Oliver McShade wrote:
(looks to James Jacobs, sorry dislike asking ya, but will go round and round otherwise)

It'll still probably go round and round, 'cause some folks only take Jason's word as "official." And some folks won't even take THAT as "official." Which is actually the way it's supposed to work, since it's your GM whose word is official for your game.


LazarX wrote:


I've always read that restriction to mean that the creator must meet the prequisites PERSONALLY. i.e. no dodging around with scrolls, the Master Craftsman feat, or cribbing off other casters. Yes you can collaborate to make items but that doesn't mean that every item can be made by collaboration.

The rules just say that the prerequisites must be met for trigger and completion items. When you look up how you can meet the prerequisites, the rules tell you this:

Quote:
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

No exception is ever made that the "access through items or another spellcaster is allowed" rule is negated for trigger or completion items; quite the opposite, actually, that rule is specifically called out as being enforced (as it is part of the prerequisites rule). The rule being negated there is the rule allowing you to skip prerequisites by adding to the Spellcraft DC.


James Jacobs wrote:


The real solution is to go with the solution your GM wants to go with. ""In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""
means just that—you can't easilly create a wand of fireball if you (or someone helping you) can't cast fireball. If you tried to make a wand of fireball and you can't cast the spell, the wand's DC to create increases by +5. If you also are lower than caster level 5, it increases by a further +5.

Okay. Wait. Stop. The one thing that I was sure about in regards to arcane crafting was that you couldn't create a spell-trigger or spell-completion item without having the spell. Are you saying that you can avoid having the spell, just by adding 5 to the spellcraft DC? 'Cause that doesn't seem right.

Does that apply to scrolls as well? Can I make a scroll of a spell that I don't know simply by adding to the spellcraft DC?

And as for the CL, while I know the item's CL in most cases isn't a prereq, shouldn't spell-completion/trigger items be an exception? A 5th level Wizard can't make a scroll with a CL of 10, can she?


Wow, I didn't even notice that. FWIW, I'm pretty sure that directly contradicts what we've been told by Paizo before, but I'm way too lazy to look it up.


Maybe he means that if you don't have it personally but have someone cast it for you, it's possible to make it but you take the +5 DC penalty. Not that that makes much sense either...


I really think an official example(FAQ or errata) needs to be done. I won't allow someone to create a scroll/wand/staff of(using) a spell they can not cast in my games, but I still want to know what the intended rules are because I don't always GM.


wraithstrike wrote:
I really think an official example(FAQ or errata) needs to be done. I won't allow someone to create a scroll/wand/staff of(using) a spell they can not cast in my games, but I still want to know what the intended rules are because I don't always GM.

It's all an abstraction. That +5 DC could mean trying to harvest magical natural aspects that would generate the spell in a single use form.


stringburka wrote:
Maybe he means that if you don't have it personally but have someone cast it for you, it's possible to make it but you take the +5 DC penalty. Not that that makes much sense either...

This was my understanding of it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Assuming James is right, I guess that by extension settles the matter on whether or not wizards with brew potion can craft cure potions. :)

James Jacobs wrote:
It only exists to give an in-game reason for why cursed items exist, and in my game, cursed items exist because of other reasons (deliberate creation by crazed spellcasters, items that got "tainted" by exposure to chaotic or evil influences, items that were cursed by a spell, items that are haunted, items that have been tinkered with by strange creatures like gremlins, etc.).

I'm curious, how do you run the deliberate creation of cursed items in your games? I have a witch in our games who specializes in curses and cursed items. My GM allows me to deliberately create cursed items, but the rules (official or otherwise) are somewhat of a gray area on the matter (since it obviously isn't intended for PCs to deliberately make cursed items).


R_Chance wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Maybe he means that if you don't have it personally but have someone cast it for you, it's possible to make it but you take the +5 DC penalty. Not that that makes much sense either...
This was my understanding of it.

Bad form to quote myself, but I should have explained my take on it further. The DC +5 is the added difficulty in using a second hand magic source (another caster). Makes good sense to me... the second hand casting isn't tightly integrated into what you're doing, hence the additional difficulty / chance of failure.


James Jacobs wrote:
Legend lore is a 4th level spell for a bard, so a bard could indeed make a wand of legend lore, and a wizard or sorcerer (or anyone else with legend lore on their spell list, regardless of where that spell appears) could use that wand.

What about a 1st level ranger who techincally doesnt have the spell class feature yet and thus has no spells? Could he use a wand (without a UMD check) with say Cure light wounds before 4rth level when he not only acquires the spell but the spell class feature?


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Halfway-Hagan wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Legend lore is a 4th level spell for a bard, so a bard could indeed make a wand of legend lore, and a wizard or sorcerer (or anyone else with legend lore on their spell list, regardless of where that spell appears) could use that wand.

What about a 1st level ranger who techincally doesnt have the spell class feature yet and thus has no spells? Could he use a wand (without a UMD check) with say Cure light wounds before 4rth level when he not only acquires the spell but the spell class feature?

First of all, this thread died about four years ago. Please check the date of the last post (or couple of posts) before posting.

Second, yes. Wands are Spell Trigger items:

Quote:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


I do think this excludes those classes who can cast the spell as a spell like ability. Don't know if that was ever clarified, but that's what I remember.


Yes, basically your training in a class includes the "academic" know how to cast all of the spells that ever become available to the class. You are given the *knowledge*, but you have to earn the *power* to cast it. For magical items, the power is already contained within said item.

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