At-will quickened true strike going to be problematic for me?


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Silver Crusade

Anzyr wrote:
Shall I take this as an admission that casters never run out of spells at this level? Because I think I'm going to. Regardless adding +20 to attacks at these levels is pointless. You should be defeating enemies without having to roll at all at level 15. What's the problem?

Huh? +20 to hit is huge for a mid-level battle cleric. Yes, 9th level clerics sometimes run out of spells. Not very often. You are correct that, by 9th level, the issue issue is no longer 'will I have enough spells' but rather 'what spells can I cast in the allotted time'. Never yet wished I'd had the Break Enchantment prepared, instead.


True strike + telekinesis is a powerful combo. You are already using INT + CL instead of STR + BAB.


Baddie casters can hide themselves with Mind blank since True strike is a divination spell.


Peet wrote:
True strike + telekinesis is a powerful combo. You are already using INT + CL instead of STR + BAB.

Eh, not so much. That first one is going to sting. But...

Telekinesis wrote:
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items

Scarab Sages

FranKc wrote:
Baddie casters can hide themselves with Mind blank since True strike is a divination spell.

Mind blank does nothing to stop true strike. Mind blank protects against divination magic that provides info on the person under the mind blank. True strike does not directly provide any info on the person under a mind blank. The Target of a true strike spell is you, and the effect is a single attack roll. The spell is not directly effecting the person under the mind blank, or providing any info on that person so it still works.


Just wait for the handy haversack filled with pearl of power 1st. RD is right... this will be an all-day every-round thing.

I dunno. With cheese like this, I usually remind Mr. Clever player that while he's very clever, it's my job as DM to keep things entertaining and part of that is challenge. So hey, +20 to every attack roll just means the bad guys will often need to have much higher defenses. So yeah, your party will thank you for the balance change.


Wouldn't Mirror Image still kinda mess up your plans though?

Scarab Sages

Anguish wrote:

Just wait for the handy haversack filled with pearl of power 1st. RD is right... this will be an all-day every-round thing.

I dunno. With cheese like this, I usually remind Mr. Clever player that while he's very clever, it's my job as DM to keep things entertaining and part of that is challenge. So hey, +20 to every attack roll just means the bad guys will often need to have much higher defenses. So yeah, your party will thank you for the balance change.

It's not cheese, it's a 15th level capstone that has a SIGNIFICANT entry cost and opportunity cost. So a non-melee caster can get +20 to an attack roll at will. Whoopity doo! They could have been using spell perfection on a Dazing Persistent Wall of Fire to kill the entire encounter at once.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Whoa...
*Raise Dead Thread* Nice topic to bring back...

I agree with the other posters...this is high level play and the mechanics have pretty much fallen apart already...

I mean the amount of shenanigans are practically legion. What about Blasphemy/Holy Word cheese? Planar Binding/Ally? Symbols? Waves of Exhaustion? All day Heroism and other buffs? Polymorph (albeit not as bad as previous editions)? Planar travel? Insanity? Archers are one-rounding pretty much everything they face as are CAGM barbarians.

Is a +20 problematical? Yes...but so are a lot of other things.

It's a good GM if he's keeping the game together at these levels.

Sovereign Court

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One of my favorite uses for quickened true strike:

Wizard 12, Arcane Archer 2, use Arcane Archer "imbue arrow" to put antimagic field on your arrow and shoot it at a caster.

No save, no SR, no magic happening around that caster.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Magda Luckbender wrote:

Magda prepares Quickened Truestrike as a 5th level domain spell, once per day, in place of Break Enchantment. Like people say, it's sometimes handy to certainly succeed on an attack against a very tough foe, but it's hardly game breaking. Magda usually keeps it in reserve, for when things get hairy. It's nice to add to that last iterative on a full attack, to be sure it hits. She once hit AC58, at 9th level, using this approach.

It's astonishing how often one rolls a natural 1 on truestrike attacks. A luck domain re-roll makes this not too bad, though. Never rolled consecutive natural 1s on a truestrike.

That's a big difference between Magda and a character having unlimited uses of the same power.
Shall I take this as an admission that casters never run out of spells at this level? Because I think I'm going to. Regardless adding +20 to attacks at these levels is pointless. You should be defeating enemies without having to roll at all at level 15. What's the problem?

Casters have to be pretty high level to consider 5th level spell slots a cheap and plentiful resource.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Shall I take this as an admission that casters never run out of spells at this level? Because I think I'm going to. Regardless adding +20 to attacks at these levels is pointless. You should be defeating enemies without having to roll at all at level 15. What's the problem?
Huh? +20 to hit is huge for a mid-level battle cleric. Yes, 9th level clerics sometimes run out of spells. Not very often. You are correct that, by 9th level, the issue issue is no longer 'will I have enough spells' but rather 'what spells can I cast in the allotted time'. Never yet wished I'd had the Break Enchantment prepared, instead.

I'd rather just use Blood Money + Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest and no save mind control someone, then add +20 to my attack and ignore concealment. I'd also rather toss out Quickened Mazes, which take someone out of the fight for several rounds guaranteed. Why bother rolling?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Human Diversion wrote:

One of my favorite uses for quickened true strike:

Wizard 12, Arcane Archer 2, use Arcane Archer "imbue arrow" to put antimagic field on your arrow and shoot it at a caster.

No save, no SR, no magic happening around that caster.

Still defeated by a wind wall.

Scarab Sages

Ravingdork wrote:
The Human Diversion wrote:

One of my favorite uses for quickened true strike:

Wizard 12, Arcane Archer 2, use Arcane Archer "imbue arrow" to put antimagic field on your arrow and shoot it at a caster.

No save, no SR, no magic happening around that caster.

Still defeated by a wind wall.

Well, not if they took Lob Shot.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The Human Diversion wrote:

One of my favorite uses for quickened true strike:

Wizard 12, Arcane Archer 2, use Arcane Archer "imbue arrow" to put antimagic field on your arrow and shoot it at a caster.

No save, no SR, no magic happening around that caster.

Still defeated by a wind wall.
Well, not if they took Lob Shot.

Or, you know ... moving around/above the wall.


Uwotm8 wrote:
Peet wrote:
True strike + telekinesis is a powerful combo. You are already using INT + CL instead of STR + BAB.

Eh, not so much. That first one is going to sting. But...

Telekinesis wrote:
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items

Well, if you just throw one object of max weight then that's not an issue. But what I was thinking of was making grapple checks using telekinesis.


Oh! Yeah, I agree.


Nothin' like a good rock slide.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Imbicatus wrote:
FranKc wrote:
Baddie casters can hide themselves with Mind blank since True strike is a divination spell.
Mind blank does nothing to stop true strike. Mind blank protects against divination magic that provides info on the person under the mind blank. True strike does not directly provide any info on the person under a mind blank. The Target of a true strike spell is you, and the effect is a single attack roll. The spell is not directly effecting the person under the mind blank, or providing any info on that person so it still works.

Providing +20 to an attack roll via divination against a person under a Mind Blank IS providing information on that person.

Likewise Non-Detection might work against True Strike. Defense tends to trump offense in PF and 3.5, and those are higher level spells then True Strike.

YMMV. Ask your DM how he would rule it.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
FranKc wrote:
Baddie casters can hide themselves with Mind blank since True strike is a divination spell.
Mind blank does nothing to stop true strike. Mind blank protects against divination magic that provides info on the person under the mind blank. True strike does not directly provide any info on the person under a mind blank. The Target of a true strike spell is you, and the effect is a single attack roll. The spell is not directly effecting the person under the mind blank, or providing any info on that person so it still works.

Providing +20 to an attack roll via divination against a person under a Mind Blank IS providing information on that person.

Likewise Non-Detection might work against True Strike. Defense tends to trump offense in PF and 3.5, and those are higher level spells then True Strike.

YMMV. Ask your DM how he would rule it.

==Aelryinth

True Strike only targets "You", so RAW, Mind Blank won't help for squat. It's description says nothing about knowing what the other person is doing and merely provides "knowledge of the immediate future", which is presumably knowledge of *your* immediate future.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Your immediate future includes interactions with other people.
Mind Blank stops GODS from knowing about what is going to happen to you. I pretty much think it can trump True Strike.

I would also like to point out that See Invisibility has a target of you and a Range of personal, and Mind Blank also trumps it.

Like I said, YMMV. Ask your DM. But thinking that a first level divination effect is going to trump the most powerful div ward in the game is a bit of a stretch.

==Aelryinth


I can see plenty of uses for quickened truestrike. However, a dedicated caster should not need to make many attack rolls on each day. I can not see it being used more 3 times in one day.

For a melee person it is still situational since they will usually hit any way.

For the number of times per day that it will be useful I do not think it is worth spell perfection for any one. Once I can take spell perfection I want to choose a spell I will use in almost every encounter. I can not see build that would benefit from this. May some sort of bad touch 1/2 caster but I think that it would be easier to just find a way to be decent at touch attacks and apply the feat to the touch spell itself.

Nice necro.

Not sure on nondetection but mind blank would stop it.


If some caster wants to waste his time casting a spell to make his attacks hit instead of actually casting a quickened empowered fireball followed up by a empowered maximized fireball. Or whatever spells one would like to do.. BE MY GUEST! Heck and fireball isnt as effective as other spells....


Heck a quickened empowered ray of enfeeblement followed by empowered maximized ray of enfeeblement would be great.

Scarab Sages

True Strike + Hydraulic Torrent is pretty powerful, even if it wouldn't apply to the STR check portion.

Silver Crusade

Rogar Stonebow wrote:
If some caster wants to waste his time casting a spell to make his attacks hit instead of actually casting a quickened empowered fireball followed up by a empowered maximized fireball. Or whatever spells one would like to do.. BE MY GUEST! Heck and fireball isnt as effective as other spells....

A Battle Cleric is a full caster, yet gets plenty of benefit from Quickened Truestrike. This might also work well for an Eldritch Knight or Magus. A 7th level caster can get Quickened truestrike as a 4th level spell. It's useful for a lot more than inflicting HP damage. E.g. Tripping the charging mount at 20' range, before the enemy Cavalier delivers a Spirited Charge for 100 HP damage

Agreed that, for a typical non-martial caster this would be a silly waste of effort.


Aelryinth wrote:
Mind Blank stops GODS from knowing about what is going to happen to you.

Umm... no... gods are never subject to mortal magic.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

ah ha, you are correct. In 3.5, it was even proof against deities, makes no mention of them now. Probably part of the reduction from immunity to +8 Resistance and stuff.

==Aelryinth


I would use spell perfection on enervation to get free maximize and quicken. Then just cast true strike regularly...


Uwotm8 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Mind Blank stops GODS from knowing about what is going to happen to you.
Umm... no... gods are never subject to mortal magic.

Cthulhu is. And he loses that fight. Badly.


Pathfinder Cthulhu isn't actually a god.


It is fun to see that a 15th level PC acquiring the powers of a low level Magus was a scary prospect in 2010. True Strike as a way to bypass AC doesn't seem that exciting for classes with direct access to touch attacks. I guess it could be nice for pulling off some tricks with combat maneuvers though. If I were really inclined towards that sort of thing I might consider a build with a combat pet though. A Sylvan Sorcerer could use True Strike to make an animal companion pretty good at Trip or Grapple, for instance. Since True Strike is a first level spell I suppose that various multiclass options could work too (Cavalier 4 + Caster X = My Horse is Amazing)


I remember that big round for round damage touch was solely the realm of brilliant energy weapons. Now, gunslingers took that spot. Spells don't qualify either given the more powerful touch attacks also get saves.

Sovereign Court

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Aelryinth wrote:

Your immediate future includes interactions with other people.

Mind Blank stops GODS from knowing about what is going to happen to you. I pretty much think it can trump True Strike.

I would also like to point out that See Invisibility has a target of you and a Range of personal, and Mind Blank also trumps it.

Like I said, YMMV. Ask your DM. But thinking that a first level divination effect is going to trump the most powerful div ward in the game is a bit of a stretch.

==Aelryinth

I dunno man, that has quite the stretch of logic on it. True Strike has no direct interaction with the target of the attack roll, and that is all the spell affects.

To me what you are proposing is like saying that Mind Blank will foil Anticipate Peril because the target of Mind Blank is in that combat. Or Embrace Destiny becasue you wanted to re-roll a save from the Mind Blank target's spell (or wanted to re-roll an attack against the Mind Blank target).Or Elemental Speech because you are talking to the target.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Anticipate Peril would not be triggered if your fight started because of someone with Mind Blank...but works perfectly fine if there are other enemies.

Likewise, Embrace Destiny you could reroll something to your benefit, but not something to affect a Mind Blanked opponent.

And yes, the words of the Mind Blanked target would be untranslatable by Tongues and Elemental Speech and the like.

It's supposed to be a very effective and broadly powerful spell that's not easy to find a way around.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

Anticipate Peril would not be triggered if your fight started because of someone with Mind Blank...but works perfectly fine if there are other enemies.

Likewise, Embrace Destiny you could reroll something to your benefit, but not something to affect a Mind Blanked opponent.

And yes, the words of the Mind Blanked target would be untranslatable by Tongues and Elemental Speech and the like.

It's supposed to be a very effective and broadly powerful spell that's not easy to find a way around.

==Aelryinth

None of those directly interact via the rules with the target of the Mind Blank, so no, it would not intercede.

All the "Detect" spells the "Scry" style spells and other spells that need direct interaction with that target would be blocked.

Anticipate Peril would not activate against a MB wiz and his minions? Even saying it would but not against a MB wiz alone is a leap on your part. You are reacting off of your own physical senses as well as your own allies as much, or more, than any one particular threat.

Embrace is acting from you, not the enemy. You are altering your own Destiny, not the destiny of your enemy.

Elemental Speech, if the MB target was alone...maybe, but only for that target of there were others that it would work off of.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Your 'indirect' explanation is akin to a Mind Blanked person standing next to their horse, and you scrying their horse. Oh, look, there's the Mind Blanked person, because I wasn't targeting them, I just happen to see them too!

Likewise, See Invisible has no target other then you, but is supposed to work against someone invisible under Mind Blank.

So, the 'indirectness' isn't a viable excuse. Either it works against all divination spells, indirectly or otherwise, or it does not. Because if it doesn't, then it's next to useless except for the resistance bonus.

But, Like I said, YMMV. You may not LIKE the spell being that powerful. You may like working around it and rendering it ineffective against spells many levels lower then it is.

That's FINE. I'm not saying I'm right. Both ways are valid interpretations of the rules, and without a FAQ, we won't get final judgment. Play the way you believe best.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

Your 'indirect' explanation is akin to a Mind Blanked person standing next to their horse, and you scrying their horse. Oh, look, there's the Mind Blanked person, because I wasn't targeting them, I just happen to see them too!

Likewise, See Invisible has no target other then you, but is supposed to work against someone invisible under Mind Blank.

So, the 'indirectness' isn't a viable excuse. Either it works against all divination spells, indirectly or otherwise, or it does not. Because if it doesn't, then it's next to useless except for the resistance bonus.

But, Like I said, YMMV. You may not LIKE the spell being that powerful. You may like working around it and rendering it ineffective against spells many levels lower then it is.

That's FINE. I'm not saying I'm right. Both ways are valid interpretations of the rules, and without a FAQ, we won't get final judgment. Play the way you believe best.

==Aelryinth

No it is nothing like that actually.

Using a Scry or Detect means you NEED to magically "manipulate" an outside target with the spell in question.

Remember what MB actually protects against: The subject is protected from all devices and spells that [u]gather information [/u]about the target through divination magic

True Strike and Anticipate Peril (and a small group of other divination spells) do not do that.

MB is powerful, as it should be. It is an 8th level spell but it is NOT perfect and does not cover everything. Even Wish/Miracle has limitation. YOU may not like that there are exceptions, but they do exist.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

And as I also pointed out, getting a +20 TH on a Mind Blanked target is definitely gathering information on the target and feeding it to you.

Likewise, triggering the bonus because the spell senses the MB about to attack you is ALSO gathering information.

It's indirect, but it's there.

But, YMMV, Saying those spells are not doing that is misdirection IMO, however.

==+Aelryinth


RD, aren't you pretty much infamous for ridiculously powerful characters built using the RAW? Why would you not want your players to follow suit?

In any case, just dig through your emporium, pull out a handful of equally-broken NPCs, and run them against him. Problem solved.

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

And as I also pointed out, getting a +20 TH on a Mind Blanked target is definitely gathering information on the target and feeding it to you.

Likewise, triggering the bonus because the spell senses the MB about to attack you is ALSO gathering information.

It's indirect, but it's there.

But, YMMV, Saying those spells are not doing that is misdirection IMO, however.

==+Aelryinth

And as has been pointed out there is no where in the spell that says ANY information is being gathered. It is your own information on your own future that is being determined.

Right there in the spells. To say otherwise is disingenuous TBH.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thegreenteagamer wrote:

RD, aren't you pretty much infamous for ridiculously powerful characters built using the RAW? Why would you not want your players to follow suit?

In any case, just dig through your emporium, pull out a handful of equally-broken NPCs, and run them against him. Problem solved.

That's not all I'm infamous for. :P

Most of the time, I don't use the characters in my gallery against my PCs since they are as familiar with them as you are (one of the drawbacks of making them publicly accessible--and also I like to brag about my creations so I rarely do myself any favors).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

if your future includes a Mind Blanked character, that's exactly the same as scrying him, because you're finding out information about his future, too...which Mind Blank does not let you do. No possible future you can divine should have anything about the Mind Blanked character in it, and so you should not have an increased chance to hit or to gain information on a character that the spell can't even tell exists!

As I said, YMMV.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

Nah. True Strike guides your immediate future, based on what you actually perceive. That has nothing to do with any divination protection your target may happen to have.


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You can debate all you want, but Mind Blank will make Aelryinth immune to being convinced.


Ravingdork wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:

RD, aren't you pretty much infamous for ridiculously powerful characters built using the RAW? Why would you not want your players to follow suit?

In any case, just dig through your emporium, pull out a handful of equally-broken NPCs, and run them against him. Problem solved.

That's not all I'm infamous for. :P

Most of the time, I don't use the characters in my gallery against my PCs since they are as familiar with them as you are (one of the drawbacks of making them publicly accessible--and also I like to brag about my creations so I rarely do myself any favors).

1. They won't know WHICH character you're using if you simply, A. Change their name, and B. change their physical description.

I mean, seriously, how will they know? It's amazing how little insight into what class character you're fighting when the GM doesn't flat-out tell you "this guy is a half-elf sorcerer" and instead states "this guy has slightly pointed ears, appears humanoid in shape, and wears dirty peasant's clothes." Just save your bragging for after you've taught them a little humility. Pre-fight bragging is foolish; post-fight bragging is a trophy.

2. If they do somehow figure out what you're throwing against them based upon having read your posted characters, and they metagame with that information using it to beat your characters with tactics their characters could not possibly know are their weakness, is that really the kind of people you want to play with?

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

if your future includes a Mind Blanked character, that's exactly the same as scrying him, because you're finding out information about his future, too...which Mind Blank does not let you do. No possible future you can divine should have anything about the Mind Blanked character in it, and so you should not have an increased chance to hit or to gain information on a character that the spell can't even tell exists!

As I said, YMMV.

==Aelryinth

Apparently YMMV.

TS says nothing about info gathered against a target. Pure and simple.

Houserule away though.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

IT doesn't need to state a target. See Invisibility doesn't state a target except the caster. Nor does True Sight. Or Commune, or Commune with Nature.

Targeting has nothing to do with it. The spell simply cannot convey any information that comes from interacting with the Mind Blanked person, directly or indirectly. It really IS that simple.

And claiming I'm houseruling is quite as bad as me claiming you are. Kindly avoid doing so. It's simply opinions about the extent of the spell's protection.

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Opinions?

When you state your opinion and use phrases such as "it really IS that simple" you are demeaning and acting as your opinion is fact.

Please stop doing that.

What is fact is that the detect spells and the scry spells need to gain information about a target. That target being the person/thing that the spell is focusing on.

Having a Mind Blank does not allow you to have those spells gather the information they were cast to gather.

True Strike does not gather information about any outside person/thing. Because it gathers no information Mind Blank does not protect against it.

Your desire to have MB foil these spells has no basis in fact.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

And you are making an absolute denial of what is actually a fact.

Trying to say True Strike doesn't generate information on the target of the strike borders on the absurd. You get a +20 Insight bonus to hit them. You ignore their concealment...like, you know, if they were invisible? Which See Invisible can't do?

And most telling of all, it's a Divination spell, which Mind Blank expressly protects again.

See Invisible doesn't 'focus' on anything. It allows you to see invisible things. Except it's a divination effect, and can't provide that benefit if someone is Mind Blanked.

Nor does a Scry spell have to gather information about a Mind Blanked 'target'. I can 'target' his horse. Oh, look there he happens to be, silly me.

So, your 'indirect because indirect because its True Strike' argument is not working for me. If you want to draw a line in the sand, draw it where it can be universally applied.

I know my opinion isn't absolute, because they can come out with a FAQ and say 'here's the line'.

But you absolutely claiming your view is true because of reasoning that defies logic, and then claiming mine's a house rule?

True Strike is waaaaaaay more a targeted effect then See Invisible, True Seeing, Commune, or Commune with Nature. You actually have to determine a SPECIFIC someone or something to get information on for the spell to have an effect. The fact you are the 'recipient' of this bonus does not mean you are not being provided information, yet you seem to think that's a requirement, when several other spells make it plain that it is not.

The fact that it provides a +20 bonus to hit instead of passive data is also not an argument. Knowing exactly where something is going to be so you can shoot it at precisely the right moment has been a trope forever. In this case, the bonus to hit the target you pick is the information provided.

As soon as you want the benefits against a Mind Blanked individual, the spell is going to say 'there's nothing there'. 'There's nothing concealed there'. 'There's nothing to strike'. 'There's nothing going to be somewhere at sometime and I can't tell you where to hit nothing'.

Your argument seems to demand that True Strike would have to 'give' someone a -20 AC penalty and disrupt their concealment as a targeted effect for Immune to Divination to have an effect. Happily, there's multiple spells that show that it doesn't work that way, many of them more powerful then True Strike.

The corollary argument is: What logic allows a first level spell to trump the most powerful and universal anti-divination effect in the game, other then 'indirect means fine.'?
=========
This argument has been around for nearly fifteen years, and the 'True Strike is immune to Mind Blank' argument hasn't gotten any more solid in that time. My opinion on this was made up a long time ago. I can't see the logic to support your position, other then 'because indirect', and THAT example is shot down by other spells which are shut down by Mind Blank.

If Paizo wants to draw a line somewhere, I'll be happy to go along with setting that rule. Until then, I will happily argue the logic of my position on my side as being what the rules actually say.

And kindly note, if you look above, that I was not the one who brought this up, I am merely defending the person who did so, and someone else came in and told him he was wrong.

Simply put, you're not going to get me to believe that True Strike is not providing the recipient of the spell knowledge about the target of the attack roll. You just aren't, because that's how divination spells WORK.

==Aelryinth

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