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I have to take a moment and give mad-props (that's credit and or acknowledgment, for us old guyz) to one of my PFS players who exemplifies the spirit of concept over performance of build. When I first met and played w/ Euan, I knew we shared a common frequency. Last weekend, I hosted a private game in my home. He and I both played the Summoner class, but his was very different than mine!
Lemann Pildo is a Summoner, but not your normal variety. You see, this poor fellow is utterly terrified of his Eidolon and never calls it forth. He believes that he can get along just fine with his Monster Summoning. There's no need to bring that thing 'round here!
You might think that it's unwise to neuter his character in this way.
You might also recognize a player testing the strength of the class w/out a pet.
This type of concept gaming with rich background stories for player characters is rarely seen in 'Living' style campaigns and are my preference and pleasure to be a part of!
Cheers!
This is awesome. It is great to see folks that aren't afraid to go for the character with a quirk for the roleplaying element at mechanical risk.
I have to take a moment and give mad-props (that's credit and or acknowledgment, for us old guyz) to one of my PFS players who exemplifies the spirit of concept over performance of build. When I first met and played w/ Euan, I knew we shared a common frequency. Last weekend, I hosted a private game in my home. He and I both played the Summoner class, but his was very different than mine!
Lemann Pildo is a Summoner, but not your normal variety. You see, this poor fellow is utterly terrified of his Eidolon and never calls it forth. He believes that he can get along just fine with his Monster Summoning. There's no need to bring that thing 'round here!
You might think that it's unwise to neuter his character in this way.
You might also recognize a player testing the strength of the class w/out a pet.This type of concept gaming with rich background stories for player characters is rarely seen in 'Living' style campaigns and are my preference and pleasure to be a part of!
Cheers!
I'll be honest this sounds like deciding to the neuter the character then coming up with a reason. IC This guy is at best odd to the point that the I don't think most people would want to spend time with him. Further since the Eidolon is based on his perceptions that seem to indicate the character has some deep seeded issue.
If you want to summon monsters without a Eidolon why would you train to be a Summoner? If you were one already when the fear developed why would you take more levels in it? As I understand the fluff for this class you aren't 'born' a summoner you are dedicated to learning summoning with your Eidolon as a aide.
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As I understand the fluff for this class you aren't 'born' a summoner you are dedicated to learning summoning with your Eidolon as a aide.
I wouldn't put much weight on fluff, because fluff can hold very little weight.
For instance, the fluff for sorcerers is that magic is genetic. But..
spoilered for space:Sorcerer Bloodlines
The following bloodlines represent only some of the possible sources of power that a sorcerer can draw upon. Unless otherwise noted, most sorcerers are assumed to have the arcane bloodline.Aberrant
There is a taint in your blood, one that is alien and bizarre. You tend to think in odd ways, approaching problems from an angle that most would not expect. Over time, this taint manifests itself in your physical form.Abyssal
Generations ago, a demon spread its filth into your heritage. While it does not manifest in all of your kin, for you it is particularly strong. You might sometimes have urges to chaos or evil, but your destiny (and alignment) is up to you.Arcane
Your family has always been skilled in the eldritch art of magic. While many of your relatives were accomplished wizards, your powers developed without the need for study and practice.Celestial
Your bloodline is blessed by a celestial power, either from a celestial ancestor or through divine intervention. Although this power drives you along the path of good, your fate (and alignment) is your own to determine.Destined
Your family is destined for greatness in some way. Your birth could have been foretold in prophecy, or perhaps it occurred during an especially auspicious event, such as a solar eclipse. Regardless of your bloodline's origin, you have a great future ahead.Draconic
At some point in your family's history, a dragon interbred with your bloodline, and now its ancient power flows through your veins.Elemental
The power of the elements resides in you, and at times you can hardly control its fury. This influence comes from an elemental outsider in your family history or a time when you or your relatives were exposed to a powerful elemental force.Fey
The capricious nature of the fey runs in your family due to some intermingling of fey blood or magic. You are more emotional than most, prone to bouts of joy and rage.Infernal
Somewhere in your family's history, a relative made a deal with a devil, and that pact has influenced your family line ever since. In you, it manifests in direct and obvious ways, granting you powers and abilities. While your fate is still your own, you can't help but wonder if your ultimate reward is bound to the Pit.Undead
The taint of the grave runs through your family. Perhaps one of your ancestors became a powerful lich or vampire, or maybe you were born dead before suddenly returning to life. Either way, the forces of death move through you and touch your every action.
spoilered for space:Let's look at the first two bloodlins, Aberrant and Abyssal, as examples.Aberrant says you have some sort of "taint" in your blood, not that Grandma had a questionable relationship with a creature of the Abberation type in her younger years. Maybe you survived an encounter with a Mind Flayer, despite the fact it almost got your brain. Or, if you're in a core PF game, Aboliths have Mucus Cloud and Slime(eww).
Abbysal says a demon spread it's "filth" in your family tree a few branches ago. Looking at Demons, I can see few ways the "filth" got in, and none(except for one) involve a bedroom. Babua: Protective Slime, Balor: Death Throes, (possibly)Dretch: Stinking Cloud spell-like ability, Glabrezu: Someone made a badly worded wish..., (possibly) Hesrou: Nausea, Nabusa: It gaze attack, Nalfeshnee: Unholy Nimbus, Quasit: Daddy had a Familiar, Shadow Demon: Magic Jar(even for a little bit), Succubus: This one probably involved some bed rest, Vrock: Breathing in those Spores can't be good.
Draconic says you have a Dragon as an ancestor(doesn't mean you've got a blood-tie though, you may have been adopted), Arcane says you come from a family of wizards(but that doesn't mean your sorcery is genetic. You may have grown up in a family that wasn't quite right, like the Harpells), Celestial has a "blessing" on your bloodline, Elemental can be anything(from living through a fire or a tornado/storm to swimming in a lagoon that connects to the Elemental Plane of Water to being a Dwarf), Fey could mean you were raised by/are a gnome or you saved a Dryad's tree from being cut down, and Undead says you could have been born dead(no genetics needed).
The way a Sorcerer got his power is pretty versatile in my opinion.
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I have to take a moment and give mad-props (that's credit and or acknowledgment, for us old guyz) to one of my PFS players who exemplifies the spirit of concept over performance of build. When I first met and played w/ Euan, I knew we shared a common frequency. Last weekend, I hosted a private game in my home. He and I both played the Summoner class, but his was very different than mine!
Lemann Pildo is a Summoner, but not your normal variety. You see, this poor fellow is utterly terrified of his Eidolon and never calls it forth. He believes that he can get along just fine with his Monster Summoning. There's no need to bring that thing 'round here!
You might think that it's unwise to neuter his character in this way.
You might also recognize a player testing the strength of the class w/out a pet.This type of concept gaming with rich background stories for player characters is rarely seen in 'Living' style campaigns and are my preference and pleasure to be a part of!
Cheers!
I love that :D
This is awesome. It is great to see folks that aren't afraid to go for the character with a quirk for the roleplaying element at mechanical risk.
It sounds like a neat idea, and it isn't even much of a mechanical risk (IMO).
However, my tolerance for characters that don't contribute anything at all does have its limits. (E.g. a coward who runs away from every battle might be fun to roleplay, but I find that just irritating.)
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This is awesome. It is great to see folks that aren't afraid to go for the character with a quirk for the roleplaying element at mechanical risk.It sounds like a neat idea, and it isn't even much of a mechanical risk (IMO).
However, my tolerance for characters that don't contribute anything at all does have its limits. (E.g. a coward who runs away from every battle might be fun to roleplay, but I find that just irritating.)
I agree, the roleplaying element has to be integrated with a character that while not optimized to the last feat is still able to impact the game in a major way. A summoner that can call forth help (summon monster) that appears as a standard action and remains for the entire encounter, one minute per level, seems pretty useful. There are an endless list of ways to create roleplaying centric characters that are useful in unexpected ways.
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This is awesome. It is great to see folks that aren't afraid to go for the character with a quirk for the roleplaying element at mechanical risk.It sounds like a neat idea, and it isn't even much of a mechanical risk (IMO).
However, my tolerance for characters that don't contribute anything at all does have its limits. (E.g. a coward who runs away from every battle might be fun to roleplay, but I find that just irritating.)
I don't think you need to go that far. Rather you do some things. You don't annoy your fellow players. But you do make some choices that help make the character who they are.
For example, I have three PFS characters. One spent a linguistics point and the language she picked is Minkai-ese (Tian Xian Japan analog) because that is her native country and she uses a glaive (i.e. Naginata) which is a decent but not the very best weapon. Another is a Halfling Wizard. My Bone Oracle uses a sickle and has spent a feat in weapon specialization. She has also taken performance (singing) at every level.
None of these are mechanically the best options, particularly the latter two. Yes, there are more 'efficient' builds. But none of these characters are useless. All of them are a little more fun and atmospheric both for myself and my fellow players.
Excellent. Just excellent. Concept over Build!!!!!
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I like this thread. I currently have 4 characters (Death Cleric, Ex-Military Bodygaurd, Half-Orc Wizard, and a Halfling Tomb robber). Two that I play with and two that are there just for pickup games/replays (don't care if they get credit). My main is my Death Cleric who believes that all should feel pain and uses his god-given abilities to dish that pain out.
(E.g. a coward who runs away from every battle might be fun to roleplay, but I find that just irritating.)
I find this concept interesting and am currently putting together a 5th character that will only be played, no GM credits. This character would be a Life Oracle who does nothing but heal. And outside of healing would be pretty ineffective in combat. Not sure how this translates into Pathfinder Society, but I've always been interested in a strictly healing character concept.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For the record, there's a difference between "roleplaying a character" even if that leads to sub-optimal combat efficiency, and "roleplaying a madman".
"My Cleric took a level of Paladin because he thought it might impress a girl he was sweet on. Didn't work out." That's role-playing. Kerney's sickle-wielding Bone Oracle is an example.
"My Cleric is a claustrophobe and refuses to wear armor." That's borderline. Claustrophobia is an irrational fear, but it's pretty common.
"My Cleric refuses to channel positive energy because he's afraid to drain power from the Positive Material Plane." That's either a mistaken belief, subject to a metaphysical discussion, or it's literally madness. emontegue's animal-hating Druid probably fits in here.
There's a place for insane PCs, but I'm gradually reaching my limit for them, precisely because it's very hard to have an in-character conversation with them.
For the record, there's a difference between "roleplaying a character" even if that leads to sub-optimal combat efficiency, and "roleplaying a madman".
"My Cleric took a level of Paladin because he thought it might impress a girl he was sweet on. Didn't work out." That's role-playing. Kerney's sickle-wielding Bone Oracle is an example.
"My Cleric is a claustrophobe and refuses to wear armor." That's borderline. Claustrophobia is an irrational fear, but it's pretty common.
"My Cleric refuses to channel positive energy because he's afraid to drain power from the Positive Material Plane." That's either a mistaken belief, subject to a metaphysical discussion, or it's literally madness. emontegue's animal-hating Druid probably fits in here.
There's a place for insane PCs, but I'm gradually reaching my limit for them, precisely because it's very hard to have an in-character conversation with them.
Those are some intriguing examples, though. I really like the last one, although I"m not sure I'd want to see such a character at my table(in the game though is another thing).
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I like this thread. I currently have 4 characters (Death Cleric, Ex-Military Bodygaurd, Half-Orc Wizard, and a Halfling Tomb robber). Two that I play with and two that are there just for pickup games/replays (don't care if they get credit). My main is my Death Cleric who believes that all should feel pain and uses his god-given abilities to dish that pain out.
(E.g. a coward who runs away from every battle might be fun to roleplay, but I find that just irritating.)I find this concept interesting and am currently putting together a 5th character that will only be played, no GM credits. This character would be a Life Oracle who does nothing but heal. And outside of healing would be pretty ineffective in combat. Not sure how this translates into Pathfinder Society, but I've always been interested in a strictly healing character concept.
Shieldknight, does your death cleric do any healing? If not, how do you rate his ability to inflict damage against say maybe an equal level fighter.
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Shieldknight, does your death cleric do any healing? If not, how do you rate his ability to inflict damage against say maybe an equal level fighter.
At 8th level (Domains: Death, Destruction), with my Phylactery of Negative Channel, I dish out 6d6 to all within 30', save for half, DC 21 Will. And I can do this 6 times per day (8 when I get Extra Channel next level, plus it will go up to 7d6). I have selective channel, which allows me to exclude 3 characters, and since I have the death domain, I get healed from some negative channeling. I also have Command Undead, so I can quickly change a fight if I get control of the undead (which has happened on several occasions). I have a moderate strength, so I can dish out some damage with melee weapons. Not equivalent to a fighter, but it is something. Also, don't forget, this does not include any spells. I usually spend the first two rounds buffing the party and working my way to an optimized position to channel without hurting party members.
I know I'm not optimized, but its a fun character to play. Ranks in Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Linguistics so that I can torture prisoners and get the valuable information from them. Faction Cheliax.
One of the players I play with has a cleric of Desna that likes to adventure at the same time as my Death Cleric. She is constantly trying to "heal" the wound between our sibling gods and trying to show my cleric that life can be beautiful.
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I know I'm not optimized, but its a fun character to play. Ranks in Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Linguistics so that I can torture prisoners and get the valuable information from them. Faction Cheliax.
One of the players I play with has a cleric of Desna that likes to adventure at the same time as my Death Cleric. She is constantly trying to "heal" the wound between our sibling gods and trying to show my cleric that life can be beautiful.
Thanks, it does sound as though it is a versatile character which is what I am always looking for.
(E.g. a coward who runs away from every battle might be fun to roleplay, but I find that just irritating.)I find this concept interesting and am currently putting together a 5th character that will only be played, no GM credits. This character would be a Life Oracle who does nothing but heal.
I'd have to play with you to know how irritating I would find it. If you literally refused to do anything but heal (i.e. you have no other utility spells or useful skills at all), I'd probably roll my eyes a bit, at least. But healing is better than fleeing.
How can it be a 5th level character if you haven't played it and you haven't applied any GM credits to it?
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I would never claim my cleric was a 'Concept over Build' character, but I made the decision early on that she would have a 7 strength and never wear armor. Her AC is 11 and she's 10th level. She's been knocked unconscious twice I think. Her domains are Healing and Repose, and the only weapon she carries is the knife she uses for Profession (Midwife). She hasn't entered melee since 1st level when she bullrushed a pirate off the Hydra's Fang at GenCon 2008. I wouldn't call her ineffective however. I always enjoy playing her, even though she is essentially a healing machine & support character.
How can it be a 5th level character if you haven't played it and you haven't applied any GM credits to it?(E.g. a coward who runs away from every battle might be fun to roleplay, but I find that just irritating.)I find this concept interesting and am currently putting together a 5th character that will only be played, no GM credits. This character would be a Life Oracle who does nothing but heal.
5th character. Not 5th level character.
5th character. Not 5th level character.
Me fail English? That's unpossible!
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Admittedly, I know and play with Euan, the OP yahoo in question.
And this post is based on learning from him.
He gets it. He's a great player. And *NOT* because he's a powergamer or cheezy.
It's because he's fun, easy to hang with, knows the game, roleplays, jokes around, and takes/gives a good amount of guff. He makes the game fun for everyone else.
He's a prime example of how little a build matters in my desire to have someone at the table.
Someday, I hope to be as good a player as Euan. I'll keep playing this silly game until I do.
-Pain
Support, and optimized are all different things.
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what they said:I've played my cleric for eight levels and she's my favorite PFS character. Some people are happy playing support characters---some people aren't. I happen to be one of those who is.Reminds me of the Healer class from the Complete Minatures Handbook. top candidate for "The Most Boring Class You'd Never Want To Play". It's a gimmick that's good for awhile but how long can you play such a character before you want to pull your lungs out from your chest?
I find this concept interesting and am currently putting together a 5th character that will only be played, no GM credits. This character would be a Life Oracle who does nothing but heal. And outside of healing would be pretty ineffective in combat. Not sure how this translates into Pathfinder Society, but I've always been interested in a strictly healing character concept.
I like playing support characters myself. But I would rather have a bit more depth than just pumping out Cure X Wounds spells.
I guess the concept for the character is more like a mother hen concept. Always looking out for the rest of the party. Taking care of any boo-boo's and various maladies. Would definitely be supportive. I guess I just prefer to have supportive characters who shine when they are asked to step up when their specialty is called upon.
Also, I haven't fully fleshed out this character, so there may need to be a few changes made. This is just an initial concept.
Style > Substance.
I would restate it as...
Style/Substance > 1
...so that a character with no Substance produces an error.
;-P
Style > Substance = Cyberpunk, come on all you Choomba you should know this ya?
Anyways -- I don't see how not using one thing that you can't use anyways the other class feature -- one that is plenty powerful enough on its own is somehow "neutering" this person's build.
Summon monsters as standard actions with minutes of duration multiple(multiple) times per day? Yes please -- no need to worry about a pet that is a pain in the butt.
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I, er, shit.
Damnit.
OK, I will say that if anyone feels my character doesn't hang well with the big boys, bring it on down. :) I once saved the party from a pair of harpies by summoning masses of birds at them until they stopped their damn singing.
All I'm saying is that yes, I did 'nerf' the character by my concept. No, I didn't do it after the fact, I went in that way. No, I don't feel the character is now useless. If I did, I'd have stopped playing him as a failed build.
To me, EVERY character build requires the usual stuff, plus a quirk. Without that, the character is useless to me. My wife taught me that. Gaming is role play not just roll play. That's why I now play Pathfinder.
Damn I sound like a commercial...
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He gets it. He's a great player. And *NOT* because he's a powergamer or cheezy.
It's because he's fun, easy to hang with, knows the game, roleplays, jokes around, and takes/gives a good amount of guff. He makes the game fun for everyone else.
Well said; here, here; +1; ((whatever -ism you need))...
Euan has lots to teach all of us. I'm just pleased to have regular table-time across from him.
--Eelario