paizo.com Recent Posts in Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing Itempaizo.com Recent Posts in Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing Item2012-11-15T22:54:47Z2012-11-15T22:54:47ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemFreehold DMhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#132010-11-18T20:55:40Z2010-11-18T20:55:40Z<p>Avoid things that have been done before, fine. Still, the trip up to this might be the "theme" items that show up from year to year. The first theme item might make it through, the 34th is quite old by the time the judges get to it. Still, that's impossible to avoid, unless mass consentual telepathy actually exists and everyone is submitting a copy of the exact same item.</p>Avoid things that have been done before, fine. Still, the trip up to this might be the "theme" items that show up from year to year. The first theme item might make it through, the 34th is quite old by the time the judges get to it. Still, that's impossible to avoid, unless mass consentual telepathy actually exists and everyone is submitting a copy of the exact same item.Freehold DM2010-11-18T20:55:40ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing Itembrockhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#122010-11-17T15:13:39Z2010-11-17T15:13:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Dire Mongoose wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Shinmizu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean K Reynolds wrote:</div><blockquote>(<i>hematite platypus</i>, anyone?)</blockquote>I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion. </blockquote>I, too, find myself with an odd, empty hole inside that only a FoWP: hematite platypus can fill. </blockquote><p>I <i>keep</i> reading that as hermaphrodite platypus!Dire Mongoose wrote:Shinmizu wrote: Sean K Reynolds wrote:(hematite platypus, anyone?)
I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion. I, too, find myself with an odd, empty hole inside that only a FoWP: hematite platypus can fill. I keep reading that as hermaphrodite platypus!brock2010-11-17T15:13:39ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemMatt Goodallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#112012-07-18T23:29:55Z2010-11-08T02:20:13Z<p>Variant items are 'perceived' as not being as original as something that is new and exciting.</p>
<p>They also get compared with the other item(s), if your item isn't <b>significantly</b> better than that item, then the judges and voting public won't be swayed.</p>
<p>Both Matthew Morris and I had items that were variations of something seen before. I think Matthew would agree that the feeling was that this dropped the item's status with the voters by several degrees. I know that it felt like that to me.</p>
<p>It's like sequels to movies; the sequel has to be a LOT better to get the same turnover.</p>
<p>My advice, and this goes for every round of the competition:</p>
<p><i><span class=messageboard-bigger><b>show us something we haven't seen before!</b></span></i></p>
<p>I really am looking forward to this year.</p>Variant items are 'perceived' as not being as original as something that is new and exciting.
They also get compared with the other item(s), if your item isn't significantly better than that item, then the judges and voting public won't be swayed.
Both Matthew Morris and I had items that were variations of something seen before. I think Matthew would agree that the feeling was that this dropped the item's status with the voters by several degrees. I know that it felt like that to me.
It's...Matt Goodall2010-11-08T02:20:13ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemJim Groveshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#102011-07-21T17:57:38Z2010-11-05T23:14:45Z<p>Yes, the interview metaphor is apt.</p>
<p>Speaking to the main topic of the thread, also consider that this contest is evolving. Every year more people avoid more of the classic problems. Every year the general standard of quality of the entries becomes higher. Every year there is more advice!</p>
<p>The reason I point that out is that if you look at some of the previous years you might a few items that do come close to breaking this rule. I don't want to point them out because that defeats the point Sean and Neil have made.</p>
<p>What I'm saying is that if you look in the archives- don't be tempted just because you see an item that "kinda sorta is a variant of an existing item". It might have happened.</p>
<p>But what may or may not have gotten through in Year One or Two.. has no bearing on Year Four. </p>
<p>The Contest gets tougher every year, so give Neil's advice some serious consideration.</p>Yes, the interview metaphor is apt.
Speaking to the main topic of the thread, also consider that this contest is evolving. Every year more people avoid more of the classic problems. Every year the general standard of quality of the entries becomes higher. Every year there is more advice!
The reason I point that out is that if you look at some of the previous years you might a few items that do come close to breaking this rule. I don't want to point them out because that defeats the point...Jim Groves2010-11-05T23:14:45ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemNeil Spicerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#92010-11-01T19:40:27Z2010-11-01T19:40:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Andrew Christian wrote:</div><blockquote> In essence, this is our resume sending step of a lengthy job interview process. </blockquote><p>I <i>absolutely</i> viewed it that way. And, I intentionally mapped out how I wanted to approach each round (as best I could, since they changed things up on us a bit from the first year)...all so I could specifically demonstrate my design-fu in all the categories the rounds of RPG Superstar test you on.
<p>Basically, if you view the wondrous item as your initial resume, the rest of the rounds represent all the questions you'd ordinarily get during the follow-up interview. Anticipate those "questions" as best you can. And start preparing some mental "answers" to them now.</p>
<p>In other words, if you anticipate a "monster" round, make sure you have a monster in mind. Not necessarily written down or pre-designed. Just a cool idea (or a couple of ideas) that you can tap, if necessary...assuming you make it that far. And, quite frankly, <i>everyone</i> should already have an adventure idea in mind since that's the one round you can pretty much <i>bank</i> on being there year after year.</p>Andrew Christian wrote:In essence, this is our resume sending step of a lengthy job interview process.
I absolutely viewed it that way. And, I intentionally mapped out how I wanted to approach each round (as best I could, since they changed things up on us a bit from the first year)...all so I could specifically demonstrate my design-fu in all the categories the rounds of RPG Superstar test you on. Basically, if you view the wondrous item as your initial resume, the rest of the rounds...Neil Spicer2010-11-01T19:40:27ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemAndrew Christianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#82010-10-30T17:28:25Z2010-10-30T17:28:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Neil Spicer wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Andrew Christian wrote:</div><blockquote> But I think it is truly rare to have one or two truly unique items that everyone is like… Wow, that’s new. </blockquote>Hence, only 32 out of 100's make it into the competition. And from there, it's anyone's game. But you're pretty much assured a good designer will emerge from that gauntlet with an opportunity to create some pretty cool things for the gaming community. </blockquote><p>In essence, this is our resume sending step of a lengthy job interview process.Neil Spicer wrote:Andrew Christian wrote: But I think it is truly rare to have one or two truly unique items that everyone is like… Wow, that’s new.
Hence, only 32 out of 100's make it into the competition. And from there, it's anyone's game. But you're pretty much assured a good designer will emerge from that gauntlet with an opportunity to create some pretty cool things for the gaming community. In essence, this is our resume sending step of a lengthy job interview process.Andrew Christian2010-10-30T17:28:25ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemNeil Spicerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#72010-10-30T16:32:38Z2010-10-30T16:32:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Andrew Christian wrote:</div><blockquote> But I think it is truly rare to have one or two truly unique items that everyone is like… Wow, that’s new. </blockquote><p>Hence, only 32 out of 100's make it into the competition. And from there, it's anyone's game. But you're pretty much assured a good designer will emerge from that gauntlet with an opportunity to create some pretty cool things for the gaming community.Andrew Christian wrote:But I think it is truly rare to have one or two truly unique items that everyone is like… Wow, that’s new.
Hence, only 32 out of 100's make it into the competition. And from there, it's anyone's game. But you're pretty much assured a good designer will emerge from that gauntlet with an opportunity to create some pretty cool things for the gaming community.Neil Spicer2010-10-30T16:32:38ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemAndrew Christianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#62010-10-30T16:19:58Z2010-10-30T16:19:58Z<p>This one is probably the biggest pit fall I can think of for myself. There is so much material to read through, that I could take from now until the end of the entire contest and still not get through it all.</p>
<p>So all I can do is as Neil suggested. Think the item through. What is it? Why was it made / what purpose does it have? How will it be used? Not information you should necessarily include in the write up, but knowing all this information will certainly allow you to be tighter in writing it.</p>
<p>But I think it is truly rare to have one or two truly unique items that everyone is like… Wow, that’s new.</p>This one is probably the biggest pit fall I can think of for myself. There is so much material to read through, that I could take from now until the end of the entire contest and still not get through it all.
So all I can do is as Neil suggested. Think the item through. What is it? Why was it made / what purpose does it have? How will it be used? Not information you should necessarily include in the write up, but knowing all this information will certainly allow you to be tighter in writing...Andrew Christian2010-10-30T16:19:58ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemNeil Spicerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#52014-11-27T21:28:47Z2010-10-29T22:51:56Z<p>My two-cents...</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
—Neil</p>My two-cents...
[Spoiler omitted]
--NeilNeil Spicer2010-10-29T22:51:56ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemCuraighhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#42010-10-29T20:46:15Z2010-10-29T20:46:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shinmizu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean K Reynolds wrote:</div><blockquote>(<i>hematite platypus</i>, anyone?)</blockquote>I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion. </blockquote><p>Was Gmomes of Golarian the one with the <a href="http://www.zunilink.com/R563_Wilfred_Cheama_platypus.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><i>malachite monkeys?</i></a>Shinmizu wrote:Sean K Reynolds wrote:(hematite platypus, anyone?)
I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion. Was Gmomes of Golarian the one with the malachite monkeys?Curaigh2010-10-29T20:46:15ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemDire Mongoosehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#32010-10-29T20:36:01Z2010-10-29T20:36:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shinmizu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean K Reynolds wrote:</div><blockquote>(<i>hematite platypus</i>, anyone?)</blockquote>I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion. </blockquote><p>I, too, find myself with an odd, empty hole inside that only a FoWP: hematite platypus can fill.Shinmizu wrote:Sean K Reynolds wrote:(hematite platypus, anyone?)
I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion. I, too, find myself with an odd, empty hole inside that only a FoWP: hematite platypus can fill.Dire Mongoose2010-10-29T20:36:01ZRe: Forums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemShinmizuhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#22012-11-15T22:54:47Z2010-10-29T20:32:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean K Reynolds wrote:</div><blockquote>(<i>hematite platypus</i>, anyone?)</blockquote><p>I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion.Sean K Reynolds wrote:(hematite platypus, anyone?)
I'm now a bit depressed that that didn't appear in Gnomes of Golarion.Shinmizu2010-10-29T20:32:29ZForums/RPG SuperstarTM 2011: General Discussion: Wondrous Item auto-reject advice #6: Item is a Variant of an Existing ItemSean K Reynolds (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lfsn?Wondrous-Item-autoreject-advice-6-Item-is-a#12012-11-15T22:54:47Z2010-10-29T19:27:44Z<p>(Last year I compiled a list of things that would instantly disqualify your item. I'm going to post them one by one as we approach Round 1 of this year's contest.)</p>
<p><b>6. Your item is a variant of an existing item.</b></p>
<p>There are many wondrous "items" in the game that are actually a <b>category</b> of items. Among these are:</p>
<p><i>bag of tricks</i>
<br />
<i>feather token</i>
<br />
<i>figurine of wondrous power</i>
<br />
<i>horn of Valhalla</i>
<br />
<i>ioun stone</i></p>
<p>Each item in its category does basically the same thing, it's just the specifics are a little different. A <i>bag of tricks</i> summons animals for you, the only difference is what animals are available. A <i>feather token</i> is a one-use item that creates a specific object, the only difference is what object. A <i>figurine of wondrous power</i> is a little statue that turns into a monster buddy, the only difference is what monster. A <i>horn of Valhalla</i> summons dudes to fight for you, the only difference is the power of the dudes. An <i>ioun stone</i> is a floating rock with a power, the specific difference is what power.</p>
<p>If you are the <b>first designer who ever designed a "little statue that turns into a monster buddy" item</b>, that is innovative and cool. Unfortunately, you're not the first, so although it's still cool, but it's not innovative. There are millions of animals in the real world, and theoretically you could create a <i>figurine</i> for each one, and some of those choices would be pretty cool (<i>hematite platypus</i>, anyone?) but it doesn't take much creativity to use an existing formula (type-of-stone plus pick-a-creature))... in fact, you could create a new <i>figurine</i> using a chart with a column of types of stone and a column of animals—which is one of the problems with the Swiss Army Knife item: if you could have created this item with a couple of rolls on a chart, it's not really a good example of being creative.</p>
<p><i>Ioun stones</i> are in a similar boat... pick a color and shape, pick a power, and presto! A new kind of <i>ioun stone</i>. The problem is (1) that's pretty formulaic, (2) you're relying on the coolness factor of <i>Ioun stones</i> to prop up your item concept.</p>
<p>I'm specifically calling out <i>figurines</i> and <i>ioun stones</i> because every year we get several submissions of one or the other. Yes, they're cool, but they're easy to do. Don't go for the easy solution. A superstar is willing to work harder to create something really interesting.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, there is a place in the game for new <i>figurines</i> and <i>ioun stones</i>. They're cool and fun, and it's easy to whip them up to fill in an extra 500 words in a magic items chapter of a book. But RPG Superstar isn't about "good enough to be a filler item in a book of magic items," it's about "show them I have the design chops to create something that really adds to the game."</p>
<p>In other words, if I can sum up your item as <b>"it's just like Item X, except This One Difference,"</b> your item is not a superstar item. And you can extend that philosophy to many items. "This is just like a <i>cape of the mountebank</i>, except with <i>teleport</i> instead of <i>dimension door</i>." "This is just like <i>marvelous pigments</i>, except it's soft clay instead of paint." "This is just like a <i>sustaining spoon</i>, except it's chewing gum." "This is just like <i>golden lions</i> figurines, except wolves." "This is just like a <i>dusty rose prism ioun stone</i>, except it's a deflection bonus to AC."</p>(Last year I compiled a list of things that would instantly disqualify your item. I'm going to post them one by one as we approach Round 1 of this year's contest.)
6. Your item is a variant of an existing item.
There are many wondrous "items" in the game that are actually a category of items. Among these are:
bag of tricks
feather token
figurine of wondrous power
horn of Valhalla
ioun stone
Each item in its category does basically the same thing, it's just the specifics are a little...Sean K Reynolds (Contributor)2010-10-29T19:27:44Z