So, I've been unable to decide exactly what kind of character I want to build. What started as Gnome Duelist, has been gradually morphing to become more and more focused on combat maneuvers.
My current harebrained idea is to try to use a whip effectively.
I figured a feat heavy build like this is better off going Fighter, though I have considered a dip in Bard or Inquisitor of Calistra to pick up Whip prof. Don't really know what benefit that will have over just spending a feat, (although the flavor Inquisitor could be interesting)
While my group has an APG, I personally don't have a copy so I'm not sure if there are any feats, or possibly Rogue Talents that may help in the APG.
A basic idea was to use the whip for range, and a rapier for up close and damage. Perhaps a short sword and TWF? TWF with two whips could be interesting, but whips aren't light.
If I stuck with Gnome (preferred), it's only a -1 to CMB, not too awful. I won't be able to trip large creatures, though, and anything with natural attacks can't really be disarmed. That's could be a lot of enemies that a whip can't control. I could still attack such opponents with a rapier, or qucikdraw a greatsword for more damage.
I haven't really been able to organize many thought on the build (half of this just I thought while writing) so I apologize for that. Anything at all that you could give me would help a lot. I still can't decide if this idea is even viable.
Almost any idea is viable, if not necessarily optimal. Once you start hitting CR 8 or 9, though, monsters tend to have hefty CMDs, so you need to have your act together by then at the latest. Even with optimal stats and feats, you'll probably need some buffing to be reliable.
If you go with gnome, Agile Maneuvers might not be a bad bet in case you're tempted to dump strength. If you're mostly going to be a trip bot, you won't need Str for damage anyway. If you use strength, though, you're only going to be a few points off optimal anyway.
Bard isn't a bad bet. The medium BAB is slightly offset by Inspire Courage's bonus to hit, plus any self-buffs you might have going. However, the lack of feats means you probably have to focus on a single combat maneuver - probably trip, I guess.
Inquisitor is fun, especially if you add demoralizing via intimidate to your arsenal. If you can cram in Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display, you can starts fights off by freaking everyone out, then trip the poor bastards. ^__^
Keep in mind that you don't need Improved Trip to trip/disarm people with a whip. As long as you're out of their range, they can't get an AoO back at you, so screw 'em. The +2 bonus is still nice, but it isn't mandatory.
You'd have to have your GM approve it, and it may take a little roleplaying finesse, but the Pain Taster five level prestige class from Pathfinder 15 (also available on the Archives of Nethys) gives bonus dice when dealing lethal damage with a whip in addition to other nice bonuses. Also, the Adventurer's Armory has the Scorpion Whip that deals 1d4 lethal damage and it counts as a whip for proficiency. So by level 9 you could be doing 1d4+2d6+STR. Not bad for a one handed weapon with 15 foot reach. Pain Taster has some sub-par yet thematic feats as entry requirements but as a fighter you have them to spare.
I'd probably take 5 levels of fighter, the full 5 levels of Pain Taster, then fighter again til level 20.
Go human or use the half-elf alternate racial trait to pick up whip proficiency or take the heirloom weapon trait and use grandpa's scorpion whip on your adventures (just be sure to use a locked gauntlet or a weapon cord so you don't lose it).
Feats for the first five levels might look something like this:
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip(H)
Weapon Focus: Whip(F)
Endurance
2 Power Attack(F)
3 Diehard
4 Weapon Specialization: Whip(F)
5 Great Fortitude
After that feats are wide open to go the tripping route or maybe focus on shield feats or the deadly stroke path.
Fighter, all the way. If you can handle swapping your race out for human, you never have to "dip" and you can trip bigger creatures. My APG isn't handy (I've let my group borrow it), but I think one of the fighter archetypes might be helpful here.
I would suggest /CONSIDERING/ a whip and a shield. The ones that get close, you have the option of shield bashing, and if you spec for both the whip and shield, you have a pretty good radius where you can maintain effectiveness. Maybe even use the shielded fighter archetype and burn feats on the whip stuff..?
Of course you will want to have some sort of energy damage ability tied to the whip as early as possible (should be around 4th or 5th level, I think)... This is very interesting to me, because I've never seen it done, and it's been on my to-do list, but it's further down. Let us know how it turns out. :D
If you go the shield + whip route, Shield Slam is a good feat for keeping opponents out of melee range.
The adventurer's armory has the scorpian whip, which does one die better damage, and it's lethal, and can damage armored foes. So use it. You're even proficient with it if you're proficient with a normal whip. Even though damage isn't all that important for the build, it would help.
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correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the whip no threaten whithin it's reach? This creates problems in that you can't make AoO's against foes moving withing reach. Therefore people are just going to move past you, or up to you and wail. I made a build like this in 3.5 using the lasher and exotic weapon master which allowed me to threaten within the full 15 feet as well as a bunch of other awesome tricks. I personaly played a half ogre born to a chaotic good nobles daughter after the local ogres raided and raped her. Despite my evil nature I was taught the ins and out of proper society while being hidden from the prejudiced populace. I was eventually thrown out of town when i was dicovered. In my absence the townspeople revolted and overthrew and killed my family. When I returned I tapped into my ogre nature and killed the whole town.
Practically this build was bard 1, ranger 2 (to represent my noble hunting and entertainment training also whip proficiency and two weapon fighting) fighter 2, to represent my time away from home working for various city guards and taking bodyguard jobs. Then berbarian levels after I slaughted my home town. I then jumped into exotic weapon master and lasher for incredible battlefeild control. Ask you're dm if he wants to convert those things, or at least put their class features as feats for you to take.
If you want to use a whip with a fighting class I cant express enough how much I recommend the Marial Archetypes Guide from Super Genius Games. One of the archtypes is the Black Snake which can make any class good at using a whip. You get whip profficiency (and dont provoke when using a whip), you can do damage with a whip regardless of the target's armor, and you can choose from a bunch of talents that allow you to do all the classic whip things like swing around, grab objects, and even threaten at a distance. Add that to the fact that you can add this to any core or APG class and you are all set.
Also i dont know if you are aware but a good portion of the APG content is already up at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ so if you just need to have a look for feats and such when you arent able to see your groups copy of the physical book, its a good option. Eventually most of the content from the apg will be up there (Near as I can tell just about all the feats and spells are up there) and in the long term on the paizo srd, but not yet.
25 Feet reach i believe, 15 from whip, 5 from lunge, 5 from enlarge
Also do note, that with just a whip you won't be able to harm most monsters past CR 8-9 duo to Natural Armor even if you go with Scorpion Whip, not that you will be dealing a lot of damage, but still, variety.
As much as whip is awesome as a weapon and i am using it on my bard, may i advise you to go with a flail + lunge in case you are not set on whip duo to its awesomeness? or flail + lunge + enlarge? Flail uses up Weapon Training more effectively duo to not having restrictions on damage and it will come in handy when you simply can't trip nor disarm anything. Also you spend feat on Lunge you would otherwise spend on Exotic Weapon Prof.
As for other feats. Cheliax companion got few of them, mostly of none is one that adds your dex to CMB in addition to strength, dunno the name, my friend posses the book i just looked through it.
Unless I'm mistaken, with lunch, and enlarge persons, you would have a 30 foot reach with your whip. And threaten a 15 foot area with a offhand weapon (shield?).
Lunge only increases reach during your turn. (The AC penalty lasts until the beginning of your next turn, however)
An enlarged gnome using Lunge could whip a guy 25' away during his turn, and threaten 10' with a non-reach offhand weapon or spiked gauntlet.
Lots of awesome ideas!
Shield Slam would be a good off-hand attack and keeps up AC. Bull Rush, then I could whip the foe without provoking!
I'm not too worried about not getting AoOs, it would be nice, but any other charcater wielding a one-handed weapon doesn't get AoOs past 5 feet, so I'm not exactly losing anything.
Will download the Super Genius Guide, sounds intriguing.
How would enlarge (or a large creature) interact with a whip? Normal reach weapons double your reach. 5' > 10' for a medium creature, 10' > 20' for a large creature. The whip is kind of a special case in that it increase your reach from 5' > 15'. For large, would that triple: 10' > 30'? It's not really explained.
Can you use the Steal Item Manuever to steal an unattended item with a whip? That is, disarm them, then steal their weapon off the ground?
I'm making my Gnome for a different game, so race is open, probably human for the feat. A tentative 4-level build (starting level) would be
Ftr 4
H Combat Expertise
1 EWP (Whip)
F Weapon Foucus (Whip)
F TWF
3 Imp Shield Bash
F Shield Slam
Or, I could go Inquisitor for extra enemy control via intimidate/spells/judgment also buffs, with a Fighter dip for feats. Calistra for Whip prof.
Inq 2/Ftr 2
H Combat Expertise
1 Weapon Foucus (Whip)
F TWF
F Imp Shield Bash
3 Shield Slam
With Inquisitor, I may want to forgo Shield Slam/TWF to pick up Imp. Trip and Disarm since I won't be getting any further Fighter feats.
Looking at the SRD, Fury's Fall and Fury's Snare look interesting. Still don't know if any of the Fighter archetypes work. TWF, or Shield Fighter, perhaps? or even Weapon Master. I may change the build when I pick up the Genius Guide.
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Sorry to cast "Threasurection" but I was thinking along similar lines, and was hoping for some feed back.
Trying to come at the "whip" build from I guess three directions, and I know it isn't super optimal, so least janky build opinions, building for about lvl 10ish.
Option 1: Pure Fighter (human for feat hunger)
X#: X = source of feat, # level you get it at.
H1: Exotic Weapon Prof: Whip
L1: Weapon Focus (Whip)
F1: Dodge
F2: Combat Reflexes
L3: Whip Mastery
F4: Stand Still
L5: Mobility
F6: Disruptive
L7: Combat Patrol
F8: Greater Weapon Focus Whip
L9: Improved Whip Mastery
F10: Spell Breaker
(alternate feats for Combat Patrol Chain:
Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Fury's Fall)
Option 2: Inquisitor Dip (whip prof comes from Calistra)
H1: Combat Reflexes
L1: dodge
L3: Weapon Focus (Whip)
F1: Whip Mastery
F2: Stand Still
L5: Mobility
F4: Stand Still
L7: Improved Whip Mastery
F6: Disruptive
L9: Combat Patrol
F8: Improved Whip Mastery
Option 3: Pure Inquisitor
H1: Combat Expertise
L1: Combat Reflexes
L3: Weapon Focus (Whip)
I3(TW): Tandem Trip
L5: Whip Mastery
L5: Stand Still
I6(TW): Coordinated Maneuver
F7: Improved Trip
L9: Improved Whip Mastery
I9(TW): Lookout
I think the the pure fighter has the most in combat versatility, basically huge threatening range, and stops foes charging in, and a real threat to casters.
The Inquisitor dip picks up some cool stuff, but becomes a little MAD. I'd almost be inclined once you get to F10/I2 going I the rest of the way out, but just want to get all the way to spell breaker.
The Pure inquisitor maybe is by lack of feats and lower BAB had to pick something to be good at and so did the tripping over the combat patrol route.
Hardest part for me, is I feel obligated to not dump Cha if I go inquisitor, because ugly Calistrians don't make total sense. You could change the trip focus out for intimidate with Antagonize, Dazzling Display and Enforcer.
Any way you slice this you are really sub optimal, but your different, and in a party that already has deep damage the combo of reach / and stand still can really protect the back ranks.
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I made this build a while back. hope you like it. link
I made this build a while back. hope you like it. linkThat is a frightening build.
I take that as a compliment.
which begs the question. how do you get tripped by a weapon bigger than you?
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my build was made before UC came out. but have adapted it sence.
stats
16
16 (human,+2)
14 (headband, yes headband)
14
9 (+2 LV)
11
AC 28
feats
fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip)
Human: toughness
LV1: Combat Expertise
fighter: Improved Trip
LV3: Improved Disarm
fighter: Combat Reflexes
LV5: Iron Will
fighter: Weapon Focus (whip)
LV7: Power Attack
fighter: Whip Master
when i get LV9 Improved Whip Mastery
LV10 Felling Smash
LV11 Greater Trip
and ill think about it when i get there
If you want to play a whip fighter, The whip mastery feats from UC are mandatory.
Scorpion whip does better damage and ignore some of the whip restrictions.
Then you have 2 choices : either you dip some levels in Bard (free whip proficiency + some nice buffs) or in Rogue (SA & rogue talents to increase your damage).
Has anyone noted down Serpent Lash yet?
If you want to play a whip fighter, The whip mastery feats from UC are mandatory.
Scorpion whip does better damage and ignore some of the whip restrictions.
Then you have 2 choices : either you dip some levels in Bard (free whip proficiency + some nice buffs) or in Rogue (SA & rogue talents to increase your damage).
Scorpion whips is a lot better, but it doesn't have disarm, reach, and trip if you're not proficient with normal whips. proof. so that's 2 exotic weapon proficiencies.
The Lore Warden from The Pathfinder Field Guide isn't all bad, you do give up medium, heavy armor and shields though, as well as armor training and bravery.
The gains are 2 extra intelligence based skills every level and having all intelligence based skills added to the class list, expertise as an aditional bonus feat at 2nd and +2 CMB and CMD at 3rd lvl and every 4 levels after that.
There are a few other abilities knowledge as a standard action to get +2 to hit and damage which becomes swift at 14 and being able to make acrobatics checks against confirmation rolls to avoid crits as an immediate action, but especially the bonus expertise feat and CMB/CMD boost are useful.
I think dipping paladin/monk/ninja/rogue or going duelist are viable options from here, bard or magus if you want a more magical character.
Half-orc, human or half-elf are fine choices for the options to get exotic whip 'cheaply'
Scorpion whips is a lot better, but it doesn't have disarm, reach, and trip if you're not proficient with normal whips. proof. so that's 2 exotic weapon proficiencies.
Wow I missed that one.
Thanks for the information ...
I suppose it means that feats like Weapon Focus (Whip) don't apply to the Scorpion Whip ?
About Serpent Lash, I'm not sure it's so great : disarm is already very situational, so being able to disarm 2 targets at the same time comes even less often, and a limited reposition doesn't seem interesting.
I'd use Serpent Lash more for the "trip" cleave.
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Scorpion whips is a lot better, but it doesn't have disarm, reach, and trip if you're not proficient with normal whips. proof.
True.
so that's 2 exotic weapon proficiencies.
False.
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If you want to play a whip fighter, The whip mastery feats from UC are mandatory.
Scorpion whip does better damage and ignore some of the whip restrictions.
Then you have 2 choices : either you dip some levels in Bard (free whip proficiency + some nice buffs) or in Rogue (SA & rogue talents to increase your damage).
Alternatively a 1-2 level dip into inquisitor (of calistra)
1 Level gets you light spell casting including litany of weakness if you like (foe fatigued for one round, no save), skill buffs (stern gaze, and monster lore), a bonus +2 to your base will save, and a domain power.
2 levels gets your wis bonus on your init.
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my build was made before UC came out. but have adapted it sence.
stats
16
16 (human,+2)
14 (headband, yes headband)
14
9 (+2 LV)
11
Are you putting your two points from leveling into WIS?
Remember leveling points are worth a lot more then character creation time points. Having 1 less con (13 instead of 14) gives you 2 points back, which you could put into wisdom. Then at level 4 you can put one point back in and get all the HP.
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At 12th furys fall
13th Disruptive or pin down
14th Spellbreaker or stand still
15th ???How should i progress?
I would skip fury's fall, and maybe even skip greater trip until later, and in their places move up/take stand still, pin down, disruptive and spell breaker.
Lunge + spell breaker or Lunge + stand still are both great combos, as is combat patrol with spell breaker/stand still
The tripping thing is good for humanoids, and the odd large monster. But really loses its juice against anything bigger, or flying. The battlefield control feats keeps the whip fighter strong.
I might forgo power attack altogether, your just not a damage dealer but it is a lead up to felling smash which is a great combo if you have to move to attack anyways.
Is a whip focused Magus a viable option?
Is a whip focused Magus a viable option?
Seems like it could work well. Most of the magus' damage comes from it's spells not its weapon, and the ability to make melee attacks from a distance will reduce the difficulty of low level magi with lots of concentration checks. You wont be making great use of the whips trip and disarm factors (med bab and spread out stats makes manuevers difficult) but the reach factor is definately valuable to a magus.
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Is a whip focused Magus a viable option?
Don't see why not, as long as you can delver spells down your whip your set, still need to dip/exotic weapon tax to get the whip.
I think you have to look up to the top of the thread and accept that viable and optimal are different things :)
The whip x is a great 5th character in a party. It can add a lot of tactical fun, but it isn't a substitute for a damage dealing tank.
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Is a whip focused Magus a viable option?Don't see why not, as long as you can delver spells down your whip your set, still need to dip/exotic weapon tax to get the whip.
I think you have to look up to the top of the thread and accept that viable and optimal are different things :)
The whip x is a great 5th character in a party. It can add a lot of tactical fun, but it isn't a substitute for a damage dealing tank.
Magus:
Level 1:
HBonus Feat: Exotic Weapon Prof (Whip)
L1: Combat Expertise
L3: Weapon Focus Whip
L3: Magus Arcana: Manuever Mastery (Trip)
L5: Whip Mastery
L5: Magus Bonus Feat: Improved Trip
L6: Magus Arcana: Disruptive (Get disruptive feat)
L7: Improved Whip Mastery
L9: Combat Reflexes
L9: Magus Arcana: Spell Breaker
L11: Stand Still
L11: Magus Bonus Feat: Lunge
L12: Magus Arcana: Lingering Pain
Actually that is a pretty compelling build as a spell killer magus, you have a big threat range, and you can trip really well. That lingering pain spell is just icing on the cake.
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adding to that last post, if you add at 13 dodge, 15 mobility, and 17 combat patrol your reach becomes pretty scary, and you get the added benefit on this lvl 16 magus ability:
Counterstrike (Ex): At 16th level, whenever an enemy within reach of the magus successfully casts a spell defensively, that enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from the magus after the spell is complete. This attack of opportunity cannot disrupt the spell.
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Kesnai magus is where it's at.
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Is a whip focused Magus a viable option?
It might be the best overall build. I've seen it in action, and it's really really good.
The main reason is that it's basically an archer in the sense that it gets to deal out damage from full-round actions constantly without needing to worry too much about concentration checks. Every round is the normal attack + spellstrike attack. With a blackblade, the character does not need to spent as much money on weapons. CON can afford to be lower since it's a ranged character essentially. AC can be lower for the same reason. You don't need arcana. It's basically all Spell Recall with Shocking Grasp, Frostbite, and other spells.
The weaknesses are the same with a ranged build. Doesn't want to get too close, doesn't like multiple targets, lacks mobility because it wants to Spell Combat all the time.
I wonder how a maneuver master monk (UC) would work as a whip specialist. Don't see anything in the text restricting the maneuver master's combat maneuvers to monk weapons only. Being able to do flurry of maneuvers with a whip would be interesting.
And you would have unarmed combat as your melee backup when you couldn't use your whip on something.
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... why wouldn't it be RAW ?Kesnai magus is where it's at.With some GM fiat you could Black Blade Kesnai... but that is not raw.
Black Blade actually has to be a blade, it is kind of a silly restriction, like thematically, it is a special weapon, doesn't really NEED to be a blade, or particularly black, it is just some bad ass heirloom.
Hence GM fiat.
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I wonder how a maneuver master monk (UC) would work as a whip specialist. Don't see anything in the text restricting the maneuver master's combat maneuvers to monk weapons only. Being able to do flurry of maneuvers with a whip would be interesting.
And you would have unarmed combat as your melee backup when you couldn't use your whip on something.
I think where the Fighter or Magus builds shine is that the whip is more then just Trip, and no matter how awesome you are at trip, it becomes much less effective against a lot of the high CR creatures.
The fighter levels grant you access to pin down, disruptive, spell breaker, etc.
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Black Blade actually has to be a bladeFalse.
"A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane."
Guess what is also an (exotic) "one-handed slashing weapon" by RAW ?
From a skull in a jar, to a brain in a jar, I admit I miss read that.
There you go... Black Bladed Kesnai Magus for the Whipn
Scorpion whips is a lot better, but it doesn't have disarm, reach, and trip if you're not proficient with normal whips. proof.True.
so that's 2 exotic weapon proficiencies.False.
Explain.
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It's written on the scorpion whip description, if you have the whip proficiency, you may use the scorpion whip as a whip.
It could eventually be read as "you use this weapon as a simple whip if you are proficient with whips", since this thing has had three different writtings... anyway, last time the topic came up, a developer said you had to be proficient with scorpion whips in order to use them at all, and when I pointed to the text, the answer was pretty much "... duh, actually, I don't know, maybe".
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yes, you could use it as a simple whip if you had the whip proficiency, but to use it as a SCORPION whip with the disarm, trip, and reach functions, you'd need both