Vudra and "Indian Flavored" RPGs


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Sovereign Court Contributor

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Mikaze wrote:

Could that qualify as a new outsider type, like [angel], [azata], [psychopomp], etc? Perhaps with a common trait like "multi-aspected"?

I hope so. Of course, the South Asian word is deva/devi, which already exists in PF lore.

There's a strain of Hinduism where everything is in some way an aspect of an immanent godhead, so in fact, the dirt under our feet, the air we breathe, and we ourselves, are all aspects of Brahm. Though some of the Hindu gods are the faces of unimaginable cosmic forces, they are not so different in the realm of stories from ordinary people. Like the Greek gods, but they tend, with the notable exception of Indra, who behaves much like Zeus - a sky god, king of the Devas, etc., to be a lot more thoughtful and compassionate. This is partly because the post-Vedic gods tend to be visualised as part of families (even Shiva has a family, though not an ordinary one: Parvati generated Ganesha without him out of loneliness, and Kartikeya… emerged from Shiva's third eye, and was cooled into humanoid form by Parvati in a watery form) - and hence are attributed emotions such as spousal, maternal and paternal love, which seems to figure so seldom among the Olympians.

Grand Lodge

Jeff Erwin wrote:

(PS)

On this - technically, according to the OGL license, no real world, presently worshipped, deities should be used in OGL works.

The reason is fairly obvious - it's patently offensive. It was a mistake, in my opinion, for D&D to present real religions in this manner. If one can't depict the religions in a broadly accurate way, they shouldn't be in the game, at least with alignments and game mechanics attached.

Several of my favourite games do depict RW religions - Pendragon, the World of Darkness games, and Ars Magica among them. They have to do so with a great deal of care. Because of the way divine magic works in d20/PF, there's a bit of a problem, because it tends to take the mystery and the theology out of things. So PF has a bit more issues depicting the complexity of belief than say, Call of Cthulhu, where it's pretty much up for interpretation.

I guess that the same can be said for the naming of demons and devils in Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder when names are taken from Jewish and Christian demonology. For example, Asmodeus appears in the Book of Tobit.

Sovereign Court Contributor

TritonOne wrote:
Jeff Erwin wrote:

(PS)

On this - technically, according to the OGL license, no real world, presently worshipped, deities should be used in OGL works.

The reason is fairly obvious - it's patently offensive. It was a mistake, in my opinion, for D&D to present real religions in this manner. If one can't depict the religions in a broadly accurate way, they shouldn't be in the game, at least with alignments and game mechanics attached.

Several of my favourite games do depict RW religions - Pendragon, the World of Darkness games, and Ars Magica among them. They have to do so with a great deal of care. Because of the way divine magic works in d20/PF, there's a bit of a problem, because it tends to take the mystery and the theology out of things. So PF has a bit more issues depicting the complexity of belief than say, Call of Cthulhu, where it's pretty much up for interpretation.

I guess that the same can be said for the naming of demons and devils in Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder when names are taken from Jewish and Christian demonology. For example, Asmodeus appears in the Book of Tobit.

Very few people worship Asmodeus, at least on our planet. He's always been an antagonist (and never a god, per se) - from his beginnings in Zoroasterian demonology, though the source of his name does contain the Pahlavi Aesma Daeva - daeva = deva, which is now translated as "god" from Sanskrit. But he doesn't really correspond to a Hindu deity.

Silver Crusade

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Jeff Erwin wrote:
TritonOne wrote:
Jeff Erwin wrote:

(PS)

On this - technically, according to the OGL license, no real world, presently worshipped, deities should be used in OGL works.

The reason is fairly obvious - it's patently offensive. It was a mistake, in my opinion, for D&D to present real religions in this manner. If one can't depict the religions in a broadly accurate way, they shouldn't be in the game, at least with alignments and game mechanics attached.

Several of my favourite games do depict RW religions - Pendragon, the World of Darkness games, and Ars Magica among them. They have to do so with a great deal of care. Because of the way divine magic works in d20/PF, there's a bit of a problem, because it tends to take the mystery and the theology out of things. So PF has a bit more issues depicting the complexity of belief than say, Call of Cthulhu, where it's pretty much up for interpretation.

I guess that the same can be said for the naming of demons and devils in Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder when names are taken from Jewish and Christian demonology. For example, Asmodeus appears in the Book of Tobit.
Very few people worship Asmodeus, at least on our planet. He's always been an antagonist (and never a god, per se) - from his beginnings in Zoroasterian demonology, though the source of his name does contain the Pahlavi Aesma Daeva - daeva = deva, which is now translated as "god" from Sanskrit. But he doesn't really correspond to a Hindu deity.

A better comparison might be if Pathfinder's Peacock Spirit started using the Melek Taus name and swiping other RL elements from the Peacock Angel that's only been mentioned in The Great Beyond so far. With the Peacock Angel, there's a lot of ambiguity involved and doors left open along with a positive portrayal. Folding that entity into the Peacock Spirit would lock it all in and turn Melek Taus' Golarion equivalent into a straight villain.

(that the Yazidi have endured persecution, including genocide, for their frequently misunderstood and misinterpreted beliefs throughout their history would make it an even greater misstep)

I imagine carefulness about that sort of thing helped inform some of the choices that went into the recent Old Gods of Osirion article, where the only evil deities are pointedly the ones that Ancient Egyptians considered to be jerks anyway.

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Mikaze wrote:

A better comparison might be if Pathfinder's Peacock Spirit started using the Melek Taus name and swiping other RL elements from the Peacock Angel that's only been mentioned in The Great Beyond so far. With the Peacock Angel, there's a lot of ambiguity involved and doors left open. Folding that entity into the Peacock Spirit would lock it all in and turn Melek Taus' Golarion equivalent into a straight villain.

(that the Yazidi have endured persecution for their frequently misunderstood and misinterpreted beliefs throughout their history would make it an even greater misstep)

Indeed. When the Peacock Spirit appeared I thought: "awesome, finally a positive spin on the idea…the exemplar of a redeemed fallen angel" And then it/she/he apparently turned out to be non-good. :( But then, I think peafowl are pretty cool.

Silver Crusade

Jeff Erwin wrote:
Indeed. When the Peacock Spirit appeared I thought: "awesome, finally a positive spin on the idea…the exemplar of a redeemed fallen angel" And then it/she/he apparently turned out to be non-good. :( But then, I think peafowl are pretty cool.

The Peacock Angel is still out there, somewhere, at least. :)

(and now that you mention it, possibly a great point of origin for the peri, considering their flavor)

Really want to ask Todd Stewart about that now...

Silver Crusade

and looking back to Vudra:

I wonder:

If apsaras have distinct male counterparts in Hindu belief, does that follow for Shelyn's dapsaras? That is, are dapsaras exclusively female, or could dapsaras be of other genders?


You know, if Vudrani flavored adventures were to come about, the Thugee cult would certainly be an interesting aspect to develop, as would the Sikh warrior cults.

Grand Lodge

Jeff Erwin wrote:
Very few people worship Asmodeus, at least on our planet. He's always been an antagonist (and never a god, per se) - from his beginnings in Zoroasterian demonology, though the source of his name does contain the Pahlavi Aesma Daeva - daeva = deva, which is now translated as "god" from Sanskrit. But he doesn't really correspond to a Hindu deity.

I understand that the Book of Tobit is considered part of the Catholic and Orthodox biblical canon. So I must presume that there are some people who believe that Asmodeus is a real demon even though he had his beginnings in Zorasterian demonology.


Jeff Erwin wrote:
Supposedly there's a thousand or more divinities in Vudra; there are numberless divinities in Hinduism, in part because many villages have their own goddess. These would probably be mid or lower-level Outsiders in PF, but they are Devis in India. Even outside of this there's a lot of room for our imaginations.

I think a good way to go about it would be similar to Sarkoris. Fey, elementals, outsiders, gods, etc. All of these could be a local focus of worship with some, most likely full deities, being worshiped across the impossible kingdoms. That would represent the older and less philosophic 'folk' hinduism. Talk to fantasy equivilant of a Bhraman, and he may have another take on it.

Trying to create a Golarion equivalent of Hinduism is really difficult. Hinduism itself is largely a creation of monotheistic outsiders wanting a convenient handle for the innumerable local cults they encountered. Maybe that's how the Vudrani pantheon was assembled? When faced with heavily Sarenrae focused Kelishite empire, the impossible kingdoms kind of looked at each other and decided, "Well, we may not have that much in common, but certainly a lot more than with those Sarenites. Say, is your god particularly good at getting rid of drought?"


Generally people don't get too up in arms when you demonized...err...a demon. I suspect religious people would really only have a problem if you portrayed Asmodeus in a positive light, and even then there have been plenty of at least somewhat sympathetic portrayals of the devil in various books and other media.

Grand Lodge

Major_Blackhart wrote:
You know, if Vudrani flavored adventures were to come about, the Thugee cult would certainly be an interesting aspect to develop, as would the Sikh warrior cults.

I just read on Wikipedia that a large number of Thuggees captured and convicted by the British were Muslims, not Hindu. In Hindi the word Thuggee means thief. The article discusses speculation that the idea of a Thuggee cult and their origins as the "children of Kali, created out of her sweat" was the product of "colonial imaginings".

Source:
Thuggee

The existence of the Thuggee cult may be yet another example of the "old school" that Jeff was talking about. The result of imaginings and misunderstanding that were made by the colonial British that then entered the popular imagination and adventure fiction.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Mikaze wrote:

and looking back to Vudra:

I wonder:

If apsaras have distinct male counterparts in Hindu belief, does that follow for Shelyn's dapsaras? That is, are dapsaras exclusively female, or could dapsaras be of other genders?

The male counterparts are the gandharvas. Who - I think I mentioned this before - are a mixture of centaur, faun, and bird. Different interpretations gave us different images. The oldest are of a handsome man with a stallion's head, but the bird-men are more common in later images. Apsaras are universally female in Hindu folklore (the word is also used a specific role type for the Khmer royal dancers, btw; interestingly in Khmer dance, females can take on male roles; the present King is a dancer, and is probably queer).

In some stories (like Jain folklore) they are equated with the Vidyadhari, who have male counterparts, the Vidyadhara. This culture consists of beautiful magically and technologically proficient near-immortals who live on the top of mountains or in deep jungles. Essentially, elves.

I'd think the gender isn't so important as the role, in Golarion. Gandharvas behave much like Apsaras but are more musicians, rather than dancers.


Jeff Erwin wrote:
Voadam wrote:

Another Indian setting is the island domain of Sri Raji in TSR's Ravenloft. The module RM3 Web of Illusion is set there and involves lots of fantasy India trope stuff (rakshasa, Ravanna, Kali, thugee, tigers, caste system).

Also from 2e TSR Lends and Lore has resource material that can be used for a fantasy India.

Both are very "old school" in the worst way, if I may be straight about it. It's all very surface: Kali figures as a big evil goddess, which would be kinda news to a lot of Bengalis and tantrikas. Thags worshipped Kali because she was a goddess worshipped in her culture, and she is the goddess of death because that is a part of time, her nature.

A lot of gamers would be surprised to learn that even in the Ramayana, there are good or neutral Rakshasas, along with evil ones. Many people in Sri Lanka and southern India interpret them as their ancestors or counterparts and see them as heroes or as flawed ordinary people.

"Cover your heart Indy!"

You did list Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom in your sources for a Vudra campaign. Kali is an evil goddess served by secret thugi killers and an evil priest there too. :)

If you want to see an egregious old schoolishy (schollyish?) example of turning Hindu gods into portrayals as exotically evil beings though then I'd suggest Fast Forward Entertainment's OGL Encyclopedia of Demons and Devils I & II. I'm not sure why they included figures like Ganesh among their collection of demons and devils of real world mythology. I forget if they made him a Tanari or a Baatezu.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Major_Blackhart wrote:
You know, if Vudrani flavored adventures were to come about, the Thugee cult would certainly be an interesting aspect to develop, as would the Sikh warrior cults.

Well, the Sikhs are a very "our world" phenomenon, sort of like various Christian groups. They emerged during the Mogul Empire, and see their god (Onkhar) as identical to God worshipped by other religions. The various trappings of Sikh faith are too symbolically important to use for other groups in Vudra, I'd think.

I think Sikhism was in a sense indebted to Rajput warrior culture, which has both Muslim and Hindu tribes within it. They also had a strong sense of honour, a tradition of female independence (in a relative sense - unfortunately they also had/have jauhar and female infanticide), and concern with self-sacrifice. These ideas are something that could appear in a cultural group without being specific to a certain religion.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Voadam wrote:

"Cover your heart Indy!"

You did list Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom in your sources for a Vudra campaign. Kali is an evil goddess served by secret thugi killers and an evil priest there too. :)

If you want to see an egregious old schoolishy (schollyish?) example of turning Hindu gods into portrayals as exotically evil beings though then I'd suggest Fast Forward Entertainment's OGL Encyclopedia of Demons and Devils I & II. I'm not sure why they included figures like Ganesh among their collection of demons and devils of real world mythology. I forget if they made him a Tanari or a Baatezu.

The Temple of Doom is an influence on how Americans see India and fairly accurately depicts early-Twentieth century concepts of India. It's more of a negative source, one to be scrutinised critically than one to be followed carelessly. I personally like the lavish palace and the elephant. The linga stones are actually symbols of Shiva - Kali's consort in some myths. I won't pretend I didn't love the movie when I was a kid, and it did make me interested in India.

As to FFE's book, well, that's wrong. Ganesh[a] is the Ganapati, the Lord of the Ganas - the spiritual embodiments of obstacles and misfortune, but he's not one himself. At least not anymore (gods change - Lakshmi used to be more ambiguous herself). Ganas are kind of like goblins.

Grand Lodge

Were the Cult of the Ebon Destroyers intended to be the Golarion equivalent of the Thuggees?

Sovereign Court Contributor

TritonOne wrote:
Were the Cult of the Ebon Destroyers intended to be the Golarion equivalent of the Thuggees?

I believe so. They reflect the pulp "cult" idea more than the reality. If you want a somewhat more realistic take, there's the Ismail Merchant film The Deceivers; it still represents them as a Kali cult, but they're mainly bandits.


Jeff Erwin wrote:
(PS) On this - technically, according to the OGL license, no real world, presently worshipped, deities should be used in OGL works.

So, how is it then, that both Cernunnos & Baphomet got to be used in OGL works? The former is considerably present/prevalent and worshiped by modern persons in the pagan community, as is Baphomet (albeit to a lesser degree)? I'm just somewhat curious as to where they draw the lines with regards to 'real world, presently worshiped'.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Changing Man wrote:
Jeff Erwin wrote:
(PS) On this - technically, according to the OGL license, no real world, presently worshipped, deities should be used in OGL works.
So, how is it then, that both Cernunnos & Baphomet got to be used in OGL works? The former is considerably present/prevalent and worshiped by modern persons in the pagan community, as is Baphomet (albeit to a lesser degree)? I'm just somewhat curious as to where they draw the lines with regards to 'real world, presently worshiped'.

OK. My mistake. It is the old d20 (and the 4e, which is immaterial) license that did it, which has specific language about religion which essentially disallowed making any sort of negative representation of a modern religion or its adherents. We're fine. In the PF compatibility license the same text merely disallows "offensive" works. The OGL leaves that out.

My confusion arises from the fact that I started work on my setting before PF was published. In any case, to claim PF compatibility, the work can't be "offensive." That's a pretty undefined statement, but it's Paizo that get's to adjudicate it, not public opinion. Paizo itself is not bound by anything more than the OGL, so they're OK. I am not aware of any product being rejected because of the presence of RW deities - Christianity appears, for example, in Green Ronin's Medieval Players Manual, though not in an actively negative way.

In any case, when I started work on my India setting, I wanted it to be d20. I looked at the Hindu gods and so forth and immediately perceived a minefield. Certain religious groups are very sensitive to their depiction in published works or art in India and actively legally go after anyone who contradicts their line; Doninger's The Hindus, a major resource for me, is actually banned, because it argues that Hinduism changed over time. Hence, none of the gods in my pseudo-India could be real. They had to be stand-ins. I didn't want to book banned in India and hence held to be religiously offensive.

Grand Lodge

Would adding an elephant-headed race with four arms and two legs, like Ganesha orientis from the book The Resurrectionist by EB Hudspeth, be culturally insensitive and in poor taste in an "Indian Flavored" RPG setting?

Grand Lodge

Jeff Erwin wrote:
Changing Man wrote:
Jeff Erwin wrote:
(PS) On this - technically, according to the OGL license, no real world, presently worshipped, deities should be used in OGL works.
So, how is it then, that both Cernunnos & Baphomet got to be used in OGL works? The former is considerably present/prevalent and worshiped by modern persons in the pagan community, as is Baphomet (albeit to a lesser degree)? I'm just somewhat curious as to where they draw the lines with regards to 'real world, presently worshiped'.

OK. My mistake. It is the old d20 (and the 4e, which is immaterial) license that did it, which has specific language about religion which essentially disallowed making any sort of negative representation of a modern religion or its adherents. We're fine. In the PF compatibility license the same text merely disallows "offensive" works. The OGL leaves that out.

My confusion arises from the fact that I started work on my setting before PF was published. In any case, to claim PF compatibility, the work can't be "offensive." That's a pretty undefined statement, but it's Paizo that get's to adjudicate it, not public opinion. Paizo itself is not bound by anything more than the OGL, so they're OK. I am not aware of any product being rejected because of the presence of RW deities - Christianity appears, for example, in Green Ronin's Medieval Players Manual, though not in an actively negative way.

In any case, when I started work on my India setting, I wanted it to be d20. I looked at the Hindu gods and so forth and immediately perceived a minefield. Certain religious groups are very sensitive to their depiction in published works or art in India and actively legally go after anyone who contradicts their line; Doninger's The Hindus, a major resource for me, is actually banned, because it argues that Hinduism changed over time. Hence, none of the gods in my pseudo-India could be real. They had to be stand-ins. I didn't want to book banned in India and hence held to be religiously...

Good on you, Jeff.

Grand Lodge

If it comes time to create the Old Gods of Iblydos, hopefully Paizo will rename the Twelve Olympians and the demi-gods.


Why would they need to rename the Greek Gods? They didn't for Egypt.

Grand Lodge

MMCJawa wrote:
Why would they need to rename the Greek Gods? They didn't for Egypt.

Because Iblydos is a fictional island based on ancient Greece on a fictional planet in a fictional role-playing setting. Previously, we were discussing the "Introduction" to Legends & Lore that had the disclaimer that it was not a scholarly work. If you use a name from mythology, I believe that you are obliged to accurately represent the being in question according to ancient belief.


Yeah but DnD probably to some extent has already passed beyond that point.

I think Hindu gods need to be treated carefuly, as they are worshiped by a large population of people, and whats more worshipped by a culture that a lot of people in the West are not terribly familiar with, so easy to accidently offend. I would argue that same case for Jesus, or Allah, or Yahweh. If you want to publish a Hindu Pantheon, or design a monotheistic religion, it's best to change the names and details.

I am sure there is some pagan group somewhere that venerates Greek gods, but they have to be an incredibly minor part of the population, on par with those who still worship Egyptian gods (which were recently introduced in the the last published AP volume). For the most part the Greek Pantheon has transitioned from religion to mythology and pop culture. Whats more, The Greek and Norse gods have always been somewhat a basis for how DnD gods have been portrayed. I don't think you can create a "serial number filed off version" that wouldn't seem like a generic DnD god.

I would argue the Bestiaries are a great example of this: a large chunk of them are named creatures from folklore/mythology, but many of them have had minor to major changes in their flavor. Similarly, Pathfinder already has incorporated a ton of real life Gods. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, the archdevils, most of the demon lords, a good chunk of the empyreal lords, Some of the Tian Xia dieties, etc.

Grand Lodge

I remember the first edition Deities and Demigods book to be my introduction to American Indian, Celtic, Japanese, Indian, and Sumerian folklore and mythology. As a child, I was naive enough to believe that the book was a factual representation of the mythos contained in the book and the book could be used as a primer on mythology. Which of course is silly in hindsight, but I was child at the time.

Sovereign Court Contributor

MMCJawa wrote:


I am sure there is some pagan group somewhere that venerates Greek gods, but they have to be an incredibly minor part of the population, on par with those who still worship Egyptian gods (which were recently introduced in the the last published AP volume). For the most part the Greek Pantheon has transitioned from religion to mythology and pop culture. Whats more, The Greek and Norse gods have always been somewhat a basis for how DnD gods have been portrayed. I don't think you can create a "serial number filed off version" that wouldn't seem like a generic DnD god.

There are Greek neo-pagans (in Greece, specifically), but the religion (Hellenism) was banned, or at least bureaucratically persecuted, until 2006.

Sovereign Court Contributor

TritonOne wrote:
I remember the first edition Deities and Demigods book to be my introduction to American Indian, Celtic, Japanese, Indian, and Sumerian folklore and mythology. As a child, I was naive enough to believe that the book was a factual representation of the mythos contained in the book and the book could be used as a primer on mythology. Which of course is silly in hindsight, but I was child at the time.

That's exactly why Vudra needs its own gods. And any game using Hinduism or another unfamiliar religion (to most of us) in its background needs to be very carefully thought out.

I think, in gaming, the religion that gets the worst press is probably Vodoun.


There are Hellenistic neo-pagans in more than just Greece; I know of several families (here in Central Europe) who fled persecution and brought their 'old ways' with them.

The Religio Romano is gaining some headway in some places of the former Roman Empire (particularly amongst those people fed up with the Church & its bureaucracy, and sometimes due to state-sponsored taxes).

Germanic Heathenism is second only to Christianity in Iceland, and is one of their recognized national religions, and there are likewise quite a few groups in Norway and Sweden as well.

Contributor

Mikaze wrote:
Jeff Erwin wrote:
Indeed. When the Peacock Spirit appeared I thought: "awesome, finally a positive spin on the idea…the exemplar of a redeemed fallen angel" And then it/she/he apparently turned out to be non-good. :( But then, I think peafowl are pretty cool.

The Peacock Angel is still out there, somewhere, at least. :)

(and now that you mention it, possibly a great point of origin for the peri, considering their flavor)

Really want to ask Todd Stewart about that now...

If it makes you feel any better, my current home campaign is

My Players Stay Out:
focused around the reasons for the Peacock Angel's fall, and the possibility of his/her redemption.

The little bits of lore I wrote regarding the Peacock Angel (Szuriel and a number of her predecessors wielding Melek Taus's sword for instance, and a LN race in the Abyss claiming to be the results of a fallen Peacock Angel's shed essence of Law as she plummeted from Heaven, etc) were intentionally fuzzy in that they could also be alluding to the Peacock Spirit as well, but nothing was absolute, by design so that future sources on either didn't have to worry about contradicting anything for the most part. Also since I didn't create the Peacock Spirit, I didn't want to solve someone else's mystery out of serious respect for them.

In my home campaign however I'm free to go crazy and be totally unrestrained by canon.

And I've got an Ask Todd Stewart thread, ask away any time you want, though with the caveat that any of my answers there aren't canonical in any way since I'm just a freelancer. :)


TritonOne wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
Why would they need to rename the Greek Gods? They didn't for Egypt.
Because Iblydos is a fictional island based on ancient Greece on a fictional planet in a fictional role-playing setting. Previously, we were discussing the "Introduction" to Legends & Lore that had the disclaimer that it was not a scholarly work. If you use a name from mythology, I believe that you are obliged to accurately represent the being in question according to ancient belief.

I'm not sure you can. I believe there are a lot of conflicting ancient beliefs.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:
TritonOne wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
Why would they need to rename the Greek Gods? They didn't for Egypt.
Because Iblydos is a fictional island based on ancient Greece on a fictional planet in a fictional role-playing setting. Previously, we were discussing the "Introduction" to Legends & Lore that had the disclaimer that it was not a scholarly work. If you use a name from mythology, I believe that you are obliged to accurately represent the being in question according to ancient belief.
I'm not sure you can. I believe there are a lot of conflicting ancient beliefs.

There's probably a middle way somewhere here. A story can be represented accurately, though other aspects of the mythology may contradict it. The Iliad was contradicted by other sources (Dictys, the Aeneid, etc.) and sometimes you have to - or should - choose a specific version. And a game set in the Renaissance might depict the Greek or Roman gods according to Early Modern Neo-platonism and be fully valid, even if actual Classical Greeks and Romans wouldn't recognise them… Take Pan for an example.

The trouble with South Asian religions, is that the representations of these gods and their mythology coalesced in fairly recent times to a certain "traditionalist" model that has about as much tolerance for heterodoxy as certain strains of Western religion. In part this is a mirroring of Western attempts to codify "Hinduism" as a unified religion. But these heterodox and historical contradictions still exist, whether as texts, as sectarian beliefs, or as folk religion.

Grand Lodge

Perhaps the responsible thing to do is to remind the reader that the book is a work of fiction and should not be confused with a scholarly work on mythology or history. Especially if names are used, but the creature, god, demigod etc. is largely the creation of the author(s).

Sovereign Court Contributor

TritonOne wrote:
Perhaps the responsible thing to do is to remind the reader that the book is a work of fiction and should not be confused with a scholarly work on mythology or history. Especially if names are used, but the creature, god, demigod etc. is largely the creation of the author(s).

Keep in mind that blasphemy is illegal in India, and the Satanic Verses is banned there. Scholarly works are actually less likely (with a major exception being Doninger's works) to be noticed by the easily offended than works of pop culture like games or films.

In actuality, Greek neopagans have criticised use of their gods in popular culture, art, and sport (notably the Olympics), particularly when it's humorous or commercial in character.

We all have the right to be jealous or protective of our gods, I suppose.


~DOT~

Sovereign Court Contributor

Speaking of this issue, there's a recent Trail of Cthulhu adventure I got recently that features a sacred space in Hinduism (and Buddhism, and local shamanism) in a way that could be seen as massively offensive. I'm not sure that it matters to ToC - it's a niche game, and Cthulhu gaming has transgressed other taboos before - but PF and the d20 world is much more high profile.

I'm not going to name the place because it's significant to the plot and the adventure is really good. But it's not a choice I would have made had I written it.


Jeff Erwin wrote:
TritonOne wrote:
Perhaps the responsible thing to do is to remind the reader that the book is a work of fiction and should not be confused with a scholarly work on mythology or history. Especially if names are used, but the creature, god, demigod etc. is largely the creation of the author(s).

Keep in mind that blasphemy is illegal in India, and the Satanic Verses is banned there. Scholarly works are actually less likely (with a major exception being Doninger's works) to be noticed by the easily offended than works of pop culture like games or films.

In actuality, Greek neopagans have criticised use of their gods in popular culture, art, and sport (notably the Olympics), particularly when it's humorous or commercial in character.

We all have the right to be jealous or protective of our gods, I suppose.

I'd say the banning of literary fiction is more a strike against Indian law and a black mark for the society and culture behind the law than a supporting reason to self censor out of respect if you are not in India.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Voadam wrote:
Jeff Erwin wrote:
TritonOne wrote:
Perhaps the responsible thing to do is to remind the reader that the book is a work of fiction and should not be confused with a scholarly work on mythology or history. Especially if names are used, but the creature, god, demigod etc. is largely the creation of the author(s).

Keep in mind that blasphemy is illegal in India, and the Satanic Verses is banned there. Scholarly works are actually less likely (with a major exception being Doninger's works) to be noticed by the easily offended than works of pop culture like games or films.

In actuality, Greek neopagans have criticised use of their gods in popular culture, art, and sport (notably the Olympics), particularly when it's humorous or commercial in character.

We all have the right to be jealous or protective of our gods, I suppose.

I'd say the banning of literary fiction is more a strike against Indian law and a black mark for the society and culture behind the law than a supporting reason to self censor out of respect if you are not in India.

That may be true. But it is also a reminder that certain gods are believed in, and belief is due the courtesy of thoughtfulness, if even if it is not one's own faith or philosophy. The main point is that a 'fantasy India' can't be done without creating an alternate, fictional pantheon (needing one even more than say, 'fantasy Europe,' like Midgard); this is ameliorated by the fact that 'historical settings' probably isn't the best use of PF, anyway; it's designed for high fantasy. The defensiveness of South Asian religious groups is not altogether homegrown; it's partly a response to British culture and its patronising dismissal or co-option (see Theosophy) of ancient beliefs.

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All those Indian "black magic" spams make me want to post advertisements all over my Vudra for a witch syndicate. In inappropriate places, like dungeons.

**Love**! Find your Horoscope! Rid yourself of Curses! **Baba Jidradani Can Help You!**


I would love if, when we finally get canon info on Vudra, there was a bad guy magic group called the Jidradani :)

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MMCJawa wrote:
I would love if, when we finally get canon info on Vudra, there was a bad guy magic group called the Jidradani :)

I just made up that name. The actual name is a conventional South Asian name. But, yeah.


What a great thread! So much fantastic research here. I think I added about 5 books to my wishlist and bought one outright.

-Ben.

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Well, I got a copy of Wendy Doninger's On Hinduism, a collection of essays, the other day (not to be confused with her Hinduism of a few years back).

It has sections on the Third-gender in Hinduism, polyandry, feminism, and so forth, so I am very much enjoying it.

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I've bitten the betel-nut and will be running my epic Vudra campaign "Five Bone Sutra" starting in January. I'll write it as it goes along. Psychic Magic+Mythic+Vudra.

I've been away for a while because of work. Hey everyone!

Liberty's Edge

After playing Farcry 4 I had an urge to learn more about India (a region that I will admit as a lore geek I lack knowledge about), Tibet and Napal as all three were kind mashed together to create Kyrat. I have to say that finding existing rules for Indian culture in high fantasy was challenging. After reading this I have to tip my hat to the time and effort required to create a fantasy setting inspired by such a large and diverse culture.

After my own research and to be honest in some cases just because, I used the following as the primary races for my own work. Human, Vanara, Catfolk, Ratfolk, Nagaji, Samsaren and Vishkanya. I figured some were already inspired by regional lore and others would be interesting to add in and apply some elements of the culture to.

Finding inspiration for villainous elements without using Rakshasa or Asura excessively as monsters has proved the largest challenge, In fact Ive hit a creative block in this regards. So basically was wondering if there was any clearly malign forces or organizations serving Malign forces more lore friendly to the culture to take inspiration from?

Dark Archive

Ravenovf wrote:
Finding inspiration for villainous elements without using Rakshasa or Asura excessively as monsters has proved the largest challenge, In fact Ive hit a creative block in this regards. So basically was wondering if there was any clearly malign forces or organizations serving Malign forces more lore friendly to the culture to take inspiration from?

Green Ronin's Monsters of the Mind has a fair number of psionic monsters, many with a heavy Indian flavor.

Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light includes different interpretations of Rakshasa, some elementals, and name-droppage of pisachas and 'the mothers of the terrible glow' (aquatic humanoids able to generate energy that allows them to animate rivers or seawater and turn it toxic / possibly radioactive...).

Random other ideas;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yali_(Hindu_mythology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pishacha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_(Hindu_mythology)


MMCJawa wrote:

Yeah but DnD probably to some extent has already passed beyond that point.

I think Hindu gods need to be treated carefuly, as they are worshiped by a large population of people, and whats more worshipped by a culture that a lot of people in the West are not terribly familiar with, so easy to accidently offend. I would argue that same case for Jesus, or Allah, or Yahweh. If you want to publish a Hindu Pantheon, or design a monotheistic religion, it's best to change the names and details.

I am sure there is some pagan group somewhere that venerates Greek gods, but they have to be an incredibly minor part of the population, on par with those who still worship Egyptian gods (which were recently introduced in the the last published AP volume). For the most part the Greek Pantheon has transitioned from religion to mythology and pop culture. Whats more, The Greek and Norse gods have always been somewhat a basis for how DnD gods have been portrayed. I don't think you can create a "serial number filed off version" that wouldn't seem like a generic DnD god.

I would argue the Bestiaries are a great example of this: a large chunk of them are named creatures from folklore/mythology, but many of them have had minor to major changes in their flavor. Similarly, Pathfinder already has incorporated a ton of real life Gods. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, the archdevils, most of the demon lords, a good chunk of the empyreal lords, Some of the Tian Xia dieties, etc.

I agree that I like them to make up completely new deities with the flavour of said pantheon or culture. Not so much for the offense part but it makes Golarion feel more like a real place that way.

The Egyptian Gods for some reason don't seem to bother me.

I like the Vudran Gods they have made so far. I don't think many have real world counter parts as do many of the other demons etc.

Anyways, Vudra AP and setting book please. Thanks. ;)

The Exchange

I for one am fascinated to see / hear about the contributions and offerings from Jeff De Luna and Jeff Erwin. I have further contributions, but I will hold off on that for now, as there have been some MASSIVE updates to my own endeavors in the years since I last posted my campaign journal, infused by a great deal of work into "Mythic India", Sanskrit writings, the parallel evolutions of both Hindu and Zoroastrian faiths as the at times friendly, at times contentious relationship the Indian subcontinent has had with the various persian empires since the Rg Vedic period, etc.

I was also very pleased to read that some have been proponents of Ms. Wendy Donniger's work as I too have been following avidly when doing what is, sadly, some heavily informed guess-work to inspire creativity with regards to origins and interactivity between the Devas and Asuras of Hinduism, vs the Daeva and Ahuras/Asuras of Zoroastrian faith. Having grown up in a Parsee community in Mumbai for the first five years of my life has also provided me a fair bit of access and insights to this, as secretive as the Zoroastrian practices can be.

That said, I wil be happy to engage, with questions, assertions and my own findings at length in the near future. Mikaze, thank you so much for linking my own work as the first comment to this thread. I feel quite honored to be cited.

As I noticed the original link is broken, here is my half-a-decade obsolete campaign journal below:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ivz2?Mahasharpa-Sahasra-Mindshadows-Tales-of-1 000#1

Please keep up the fantastic work, folks! I look forward to comparing notes on our respective "Mythic Indias" soon!

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