Vudra and "Indian Flavored" RPGs


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Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Jeff, you are a man of impeccable taste.


There is a clearance book on Edward R Hamilton, Bookseller on Indian Myth. Do not know name, as this is solidly 3rd hand info.


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Asuras and Indian Legend

On and off recently I have been compiling information on Indian demonology (or fiendology, if you prefer). I have 9 pages of dense notes so I'm distilling things here. This replaces my musings before about them after a lot more reading...

The NE, CE and LE Fiend races for Vudra have been preoccupying me for a while. There’s a couple reasons for this: mainly that I wanted a fleshed out set of villainous figures for Vudra (and since most parties are good or neutral…) that aren’t the stereotypical Rakshasas and Nagas.

The Asuras of Pathfinder and Golarion have been defined as a LE race. It’s worth noting that d20 featured the Asuras as a CG race, a holdover from their appearance in Al-Qadim. The Beatific Ones in particular resemble the Japanese depiction of the Asuras from their art of the Eight Legions. Asura is etymologically linked to Ahura (as in Ahura Mazda) and Aesir, and it is thought that they were originally a group of divinities that were rivals of the Devas (who conversely became the evil Divs in Persian legend) and were no more good or evil than their foes.

Hindu demonology was really sketched out in detail in the Puranas, which sought to provide genealogies for everyone (gods, demons, monsters, everyone). Since the Puranas basically post-date the Buddhist cosmological texts, they aren’t reflected in the Indian influence on the mythical bestiary in the greater Far East.

In the Puranas, the Devas and the Asuras are cousins, descended from sisters married to the same man (usually). This explains their opposition to the Devas as an inheritance dispute, with the Devas the elders. It is also noticeable that the Asuras of Indian legend are not irrevocably evil; they are cunning, proud, and wrathful, but they are never cut off from Moksha, or redemption. Several important Asuras are actually good beings, or became good, and are worshipped in India: Prahlada and Bali are notable examples. There is a tradition amongst Dravidian cultures that the Asuras were the Indus valley peoples and/or the southern non-Aryans, and that they are descended from them.

Since the cultural sources of Pathfinder are Western, we see the concept of irredeemable evil and ‘types’ (Lawful, Evil, etc.) incorporated into its rules. This is alien to Hindu and Buddhist tradition.

In any case, returning to the Puranas: there are between two to five different distinct races of Asuras: the two primary ones are the Daityas and the Danavas. The Daityas are the descendants of Diti, one of the consorts of Kasyapa, a primeval sage. The Devas descend from Aditi, her sister, and the Danavas from Danu, another sister; they shared the same husband.

The Daityas are more destructive and monstrous than their cousins. The most important Daityas are Andhara, the incarnation of ignorance; Bali; Banasura; Dundhubi, creator of earthquakes; Hiranyakasipu; Naraka; Prahlada; Prahrada; Taraka; Virocana; and Vivasvata. Bali and Prahlada are seen as redeemed Asuras and it wouldn’t make sense to depict them as Fiend Lords in PF. The Daityas ruled cities and peoples in the mountains and southern jungles of India. Bali and Taraka are particularly noteworthy as Daityas who sought to conquer the Planes (and nearly succeeded). They are perhaps NE generally speaking.

The Danavas are more attractive than the Daityas, and rival the Devas in intelligence and beauty. The Beatific Ones in PF strongly resemble the form the Danavas adopt in battle. Many Danavas are described as gigantic. Danu, the mother of the Danavas, may be the Indo-European river-goddess, mother of the Celtic Aos Sidhe (elves). Danavas are technologically advanced and generally what we would call LE, seeking rule rather than ruin, and hence can be generally equated with the PF Asuras. Notable Danavas include Maya; Shambara; Kaitabha; Vaisvanara; Viprachiti (who was redeemed); and Virupaksa (who converted to Buddhism); Ketu and Rahu (who are Grahas or planetary bodies).

The third through fifth types of Asura are variously the Kalakeyas (descendants of Kala or Kalaka), descendants of Danayu, or descendants of Krodha. These share a great deal of similarities and often are defined in identical ways save the name of their ancestress. They are associated with wrath, anger, vermin, serpents, the undead, and the underworld, and seem to be pretty much identical to the CE demons of PF. They are the most numerous of the Asuras, but the least detailed, often appearing as an allied force while the Daityas or Danavas wage war on the gods. Notable members of this group include Vritra; Krodhavasas; Virupaksa (a convert to Buddhism); and perhaps Puloma.

Unlike the Devils, Daemons, and Demons of PF, the Asuras are generally allies with each other against the Devas, though there is infighting and disorganization, which tends to be the undoing of their plans.

I’ve mentioned the Grahas before. Since this term does roughly mean fate-demon, it could be used as a fourth type, but Graha is more of a job title than a racial classification: Devas, Danavas, Daityas, and other beings can all be Grahas.

Of the various Asuras I’ve mentioned the following kind of beg for inclusion in Vudra (keep in mind that many Demon Lords and nearly all the major Infernal Lords are based on RW myth and consistency argues for the real names, as well as their mention in the published PF paths):

Andhara: Daitya patron of Ignorance
Dundhubi: Maimed Daitya of Earthquakes and Volcanoes
Krodhavasas: Kalakeya mother of Vermin and Undead
Maya: Danava Lord of Illusion
Rahu: Dragon of the Eclipse; Danava Graha
Shambara: Danava Lord of Magic
Taraka: Undefeatable Daitya warrior
Vritra: Child of Danayu, Dragon of Drought

NEXT: I'm working on a few different things: a East India Company/VOC analogue; a discussion of the Trees of the Sun and the Moon/Waq-waq trees; and a discussion of the Core and Base classes in Vudra.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Jeff, I think I speak for quite a few peole when I say this: Dude, your my new hero. And there is a very big evil grin and the mere mention of a East India Company analog......

ANd the idea of a Richard Sharp comes to mind.


Thanks, Alexi.

Just a quick post here. This is from a site I just discovered on Conan-based d20; the characters from from The People of the Black Circle:

Yasmina, Devi of Vendhya

The Master of Yimsha

The Lords of the Black Circle. See also here.


Another version (Word doc), here from the Mongoose RPG.


Mara, the Buddhist demon, of course, should be mentioned among the Asuras I have above. He is identified with the Hindu Namuci or Namuchi, a Danava.


Heh. A website somehow I missed completely: India for Al-Qadim.

Two other Vudran facts I missed somehow were the Tree of Eternal Dawn (EfOK, p.42) with golden and green leaves from a lost island in the north of Vudra, which grants immortality at a "terrible price."

--This seems a direct reference to the Trees of the Sun and the Moon in the Alexander the Great romances, where he visits oracular trees that speak in India, and they foretell his triumph and youthful death, and the collapse of his empire combined with a later medieval and Islamic elaboration, where Alexander seeks either the Fountain of Youth, or the gates of Paradise beyond India. I'll discuss this more in a future post.

The other factoid:
In 4275, an earthquake (and tsunami?) devastated the coasts of Vudra, killing thousands. (CS, p.202)

--The RW parallel is of the tsunamis which apparently destroyed the cities of the Chola in what is now Tamil Nadu state. One possible date might have been 535 CE, stemming from an eruption of Krakatoa. Interestingly, the recent Indian Ocean tsunami did uncover some runs apparently buried in the ancient cataclysm, namely some the Seven Pagodas of Mahabalipuram (Mamallapuram), believed to have been first built by the Asura king Bali (see my previous post) in honor of Vishnu. The Chola was a sea-going empire that was one of the main sources of the Hindu influence in SE Asia, along with the Kalinga of Orissa. The results of this historical disaster was to bring a foreign dynasty into power for some 300-400 years. The memory of the tsunami may be reflected in the popular belief in Kumari Kandam, the drowned Tamil lands under the Indian Ocean.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Amazing stuff it has me looking forward to Paizo's eventual books on the area and whatever you continueto come up with.


I'm baaack...

The Company of Vudra and the Obari Sea

For this sort of company to flourish, the Vudran empire needs to be not exactly hale. However, the first appearance of European traders in India was during the apex of the Mughal Empire. The land-grabs resulted from the lack of complete hegemony in the south and the initially minor nature of the settlements given to the Europeans.

History: Trade between Vudra and Avistan seems to have taken off from about 4320, when Selmius Foster opened trade routes between Absalom and Vudra; the war between Taldor and Qadira had already begun in 4079. The Arch of Aroden had been conquered by Cheliax in 4138. In 4458, House Arkona established trade routes from Korvosa to Vudra. The Grand Campaign between Qadira and Taldor lasted until 4603; this war probably spawned generations of corsairs and was a major disruption to trade though the straits between the Inner Sea and the Obari Ocean. Six years later Osirion became independent, giving traders a neutral sea route to Vudra. Since it’s now 4710, it’s been over a hundred years since ‘safe’ routes existed.

Thus between 4320 and 4603 the safest route and most reliable source for Vudran goods would have been around Garund, which strongly favors Cheliax as the major Avistani trading power in the Obari Ocean. We can take note, as well, of Durvin Gest’s exploits passing the ‘horn of Garund’ sometime in the 4320s when Selmius Foster (later to perish on the island of Bhopan) was headed to Vudra; the transposition of two Pathfinders then brings up the possibility of some sort of prize or wager that inspired them to attempt the route simultaneously. The horn of Garund route also serves as a possible explanation for the continuing importance of Sargava (founded 4138). Cheliax’s control of the Arch of Aroden allows it to restrict trade flowing out of the Inner Sea, meaning that Andoran, Taldor, and Absalom probably generally rely on routes skirting the coast of Osirion.

Note that the destruction caused by the earthquake of 4275 would still be felt along the Vudran coast, if RW history is any guide. The great ports would have been ruined and the successor states would have been weak and disorganized, easy prey to Avistani merchants mercenaries or their allies. I think it would be reasonable, therefore, to posit small Avistani colonies on the coast, particularly on islands (like Mumbai/Bombay once was) under the flag of the CVOS. (Personally, since Jinn are supposed to be controlled in large numbers by the Vudran nobility, I wonder if such a disaster might have been a rebellion).

Historically, the tsunami-affected areas of south India suffered a severe collapse following the destruction of their coastal cities sometime in the 4th-6th centuries. Literature, art, and architecture show significant gaps afterwards, with a recovery only occurring in the 7th century. Foreign invaders rose to power, and the period is characterized as a ‘Dark Age.’ Also, in the RW, the great south Indian port of Muziris was destroyed by an earthquake or tsunami only a hundred or so years before the Portuguese appeared in the same area and started seizing territory.

However, following the appearance of the Eye of Abadnego and the Shackles pirates (4674), any trading colonies and links would have to fend for themselves. Combined with the peacefulness of the eastern Inner Sea, trade routes would now decidedly favor a route past Qadira. House Arkona’s trade routes were founded well before the Grand Campaign ended, and presumably took the long route around Garund. Since they were active and profitable after the Shackles Pirates arose, they must have had some pull with the corsairs.

An illustration from the Guide to Absalom clearly shows large ocean-going craft that resemble East Indian Merchantmen in the docks. See here.

Pirates are known to be active in the Obari Ocean c.4329; the incursion into Geb of a pirate queen suggests a female pirate haven south of the southern border of the map. Mastrien Slash, originally marooned by Durvin Ghest, was their leader (CS, p.76, Seekers of Secrets, p.41). Historically, the Indian Ocean trade attracted scores of pirates, and saw the foundation of the infamous pirate havens of Madagascar, as well as the scene for the careers of Captain Kidd and Henry Every.

In the RW, Vasco de Gama reached India in 1498. By 1505, a permanent trading colony, or ‘factory’ was founded in Cochin, India. Five years later, Goa was founded. By 1580 the Dutch had visited India under the VOC, and in 1594 the English EIC had contacted India, together forming the first major competition with Portugal for Indian trade. The EIC came to be a dominant power in India in the 18th century.

There are a number of possible ‘EICs’ in Golarion, like in the RW:

Absalom: Selmius Foster and his successors. Absalom more closely mirrors the Dutch or Venetian Republic than the Portuguese, French, or English. It is doubtful that Absalom would grant a monopoly—the Dutch formal monopoly was a direct response to the EIC’s charter. Historically, the establishment of the Indian trade routes around Africa crippled the Venetians, but the straits near Osirion would lead to a different outcome in Golarion. Venetian trade was controlled by noble houses, like in Absalom; these houses are cooperative in that they band together to defend against pirates. The best explanation for the origins of an Absalom-based private CVOS would be as a pirate-protection cooperative. Likewise, any colonies around Vudra would be privately owned.
The Absalomi Navy, furthermore, conducts anti-pirate operations in the Obari Ocean; these would be unnecessary if Absalom did not have a thriving Vudran and Kelesh maritime trade interest.
The following Absalomi Houses might be involved in this trade:
House Candren: This sea-trade oriented Absalomi House has links to Andoran.
House Morilla: A Taldan house dealing with trade and ‘mysteries.’

Cheliax: The Aspis Consortium (centuries old) and House Arkona. Cheliax is the only Avistani power likely to grant a royal charter for a Vudran trade company. The Aspis Consortium is primarily preoccupied with Garund, however. House Arkona of Korvosa appears to have had influence in multiple Vudran ports prior to its fall. Sargava: The Lost Colony suggests that Guilds are the basic trade organization in Chelish society. A defacto independent Guild located in a coastal town of Vudra would make sense.
Halfling crews on Halfling-sized ships are common in Chelish trading houses.

The Prophets of Kalistrade: These are certainly involved in the Vudran trade, since spices and exotic goods are reliably profitable. Nonetheless, they are not land-grabbers, and they are definitely focused on Druma. Political interference is probably limited to assuring low prices in Vudra.

Taldor: While the location of Cheliax resembles that of Portugal, one of the significant motivations outside of trade for the Portuguese discovery of the sea-route belongs to Taldor: the search for allies against the Keleshites (Turks). The Portuguese hoped to find Prester John. A Vudran ally against the Padishah would have turned the course of the war. Taldan envoys, unlike those of their competitors, would be looking for a strong, trustworthy ally, not minor city-states that could be dominated.


The Oracular Trees

The Oracular Trees are an ancient legend regarding India; the story is widespread, known even in China, where they are mulberry trees (what silkworms live in). The Alexander legend describes them as cypresses or as myrrh-nut trees. Their name was “Moutheamatous.” Around the trees were the skins of wild beasts, said in the Syriac version to be the only clothing of the local tribes.
Medieval illustrations show them in a walled garden (i.e., paradise). Since they are in the farthest East, they may be somehow Edenic.
The Trees are sometimes one tree and sometimes two; as two trees they are male Sun tree and female Moon tree, which each predict the future at the moment of dawn and the setting of the sun, respectively. They speak the Indian language. The Sun tree’s leaves are made of red gold and those of the Moon are of silver.

Note from Escape from Old Korvosa
As I’ve noted before, the Tree of Eternal Dawn (EfOC, p.42), with its gold and green leaves, its association with wishes, curses, and fate, Vudran location, and name (dawn = sunrise) seems to be either a strong coincidence or a deliberate nod to the mythical trees.

Alexander the Great
The Oracular Trees were added to the Alexander legend sometime

In the Alexander romance, the hero travels from the river Jhelum towards the east, passes to the end of the Ganges (understood in medieval times as the mouth of the Ganges, hence the location of Paradise there, but probably meaning the source, based on the topography of the story), and after forests inhabited by monsters and wild men, finds an adamantine mountain (Meru?) where lives a reclining man or god (Vishnu?) in a temple; this man directs him through a forest of immense trees where lives the Phoenix (Garuda?) and beyond which is the site of the trees. From the trees he travels to the Amazon kingdom (Tibet or Ladakh).
In the Syriac version, however, Alexander proceeds east, and defeats a dragon beyond Prasiake (Prachala, or Uttar Pradesh), passed a mountain called Barsatis, and entered China.

Alexander, or Iskander, becomes Dhul-Qarnain, the two-horned one, in the Quran (though some dispute this), and the companion of Khidr, the immortal Green Man.

It appears that Marco Polo’s Arbre Sec (Dry Tree), a Plane tree he saw on the eastern borders of Persia, was a mistaken or folkloric identification. According to Saurez (Shedding the Veil, p.12), the Arbre Sec died at the passion of Christ and would rise again when a ‘prince from the West’ sang to it, causing the conversion of many Jews and Muslims.

See here.

Aroden = Alexander
Aroden and the Azlantis are the closest to Alexander in themes and mythical significance in Golarion; indeed, pseudo-Greek names are linked to the Azlantis in the Campaign Setting, including ‘Alamander’ (p.18).
Aroden, of course, resembles the philosophical adventurer of the Alexander legend, not the historical conqueror. But in terms of Vudra/India, the eastern journey of Alexander could be lifted nearly complete into a story of Aroden and his pursuit of godhood. Aroden, of course, and his successors, was more focused on Avistan, rather than Asia/Casmaron. But this doesn’t prevent an eastern journey from being part of the legend.

Waq-waq
Waq-waq was both the name of a tree from which grew as fruit the heads of men and/or women that could speak in Arabic legend, and of the surrounding archipelago upon which it grew. The name became associated with the East Indies, and seems to have been linked to Indonesian peoples; it is sometimes beyond Madagascar and sometimes near Malaya. The Waq-waq islands were a matriarchy where only women dwelt, ruled by a queen; some versions have it that the fruit ripen into women (only), and then drop to become the inhabitants of the islands; others say the fruit merely dies after falling, crying once ‘Waq-waq’, and the human appearance is an illusion, rotting into plant matter. The parallels with the Alexander legend above are numerous. Apparently Waq-waq equates to the English ‘La-la land’ (the land of daydreams) in modern Arabic. In the Amir Hamza story it shows characteristics of both this and the Alexander story, predicting the death of the main character, but its fruit are edible and delicious and do not appear to be human heads. Some scholars identify the islands with Japan (which was named Wo-kuo in Chinese).

Prester John
Prester John was the fabled priest-emperor of the Three Indies (East Africa, India, and SE Asia) whose tale became a popularly believed ‘fact’ in the era of the Crusades. A Nestorian Christian, he was poised to flank the Islamic nations and thus bring about their defeat by the Crusaders. His wealth (including a sceptre made entirely of a single emerald) and territories were without number. As Asia was explored by Westerners his abode shifted; late accounts disagreed whether he was a Turko-Mongolian khan or a Ethiopian king.
His empire is placed just prior to the Trees of the Sun and the Moon in the furthest East by Mandeville. Other accounts place him near to the Terrestial Paradise, which has been located in the Middle Ages in an island near the Ganges, or on the island of Sri Lanka (Ceylon).
Saurez notes (Shedding the Veil, p.11) that Prester John’s kingdom was placed near Ophir on medieval mappa mundi. Ophir was associated with the Aurea Regio, the golden land, or SE Asia.
In the Jungerer Titurel, Prester John is the guardian of the Grail after the fall of Arthurian Britain, and corresponds to Sarras in the French romances.
Prester John may have some correspondence to Khiben-Sald and the Maharajahs of Vudra in Golarion.

Some locations linked to this figure are detailed below:

Golbache [Gohathe, Colbache]: Gobach, Gelbach: ‘on an arm of the sea’ beyond Hormuz in Mandeville before the empire of Prester John. This is Soboth or Colach (Cambaye, modern Khambhat), in Gujarat, then the principal port of west-central India.

Hulna (Ulna)
Capital of Prester John on the river Phison or Ganges. However John of Hesse places it on an island two miles from the coast accessible by low tide, four days from the Tigris and the capital of PJ (there Edessa). St. Thomas’ body is said to be here. Elsewhere to be on a mountain in a lake.

Susa
‘Principal palace of Prester John.’ The real Susa is a city in Iran.

Nyse [Nysa]
The birthplace of Dionysus, believed to be from the 'Orient' in Greek myth. After Alexander's conquests, he was believed to be from India. Dionysopolis or Nagara[hara]. However, placed by the Greek Alexander legends on Meros (Meru), which may be her Koh i-Mor on the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan in Bajaur district, not Kailasa in this context. The scholar Alain Danielou believed Dionysus to be Shiva in Western guise.

Evilach, Havilah, Seviliah and Sambation
Gershon ben Eliezer ha-Levi (1630) claimed the Indian town of Seviliah was two days from the River of Sand mentioned in the Letter of Prester John (or in Mandeville and Odoric, respectively, the Mer Arenouse, Mer Sablennouse). Beyond the River resided the ten lost tribes of Israel, ruled by King Daniel. Daniel and his people made war upon Prester John, though only once a week when the river stopped flowing.
Since the Phison was equated by some with the Ganges, India was felt to be the Havilah of the Bible.
Beyond the Sea or River of Sand or Gravel lies a river which is of precious gems, and beyond that is the Fountain of Youth, the land of Gog and Magog, and the castle of Melliflor. This river has been identified with the Lop Desert on the border of China proper and greater Tibet. It was later associated with the Lebermeer (Congealed Sea of the far north), and in the Jungerer Titurel, the Lebermeer is an obstacle on the way to India from Europe (!). (Lowes, John Livingston. ‘The Dry Sea and the Carrenare.’ Modern Philology, Jun 1905, p.1-46). The Lop identification would appear to place the Lost Tribes in China.

The third major treatment of India in Medieval texts after Alexander and Prester John was the German Grail legends as told by Wolfram von Eschenbach and Albrecht, authors of the Parzival and its sequel the Jungerer Titurel.

Tribalibot; Kaukasus; Agremuntin.
The Tribalibot of Wolfram’s Parzival and the Titurel of Albrecht is Palibothra or Pataliputra, on the Ganges. The Queen of Tribalibot was Secundille (Sekundille). Her brother was the dark-skinned dwarf Malcreatiure and her sister was the Grail-maiden Cundrie. Boar-men lived here.

Sekundille was the lover of Fierefiz (*Feroz), Parzival’s Asian half-brother, and gave him a banner of a mongoose. The Jungerer Titurel identifies her father as Securiez (*Saka Raj), son of Escussir, son of Secusier or Achusier (*Azes). The Saka or Shaka Raj, or kingdom, was a historic empire founded by Scythian invaders, also called by historians the Indo-Scythians. A contemporary term was Ariaca.
Other parts of this literary India are T[h]abronit or Tabronite, a splendid Moorish city at the base of the Kaukasus (Himalayas) which traded in cloth and horses (but is perhaps actually Taprobane, or Sri Lanka), the aromatic forests and silk-markets of T[h]asme ‘de Sarande’ (the Western Ghats?), and Friende or Vriende (possibly the Arabic ‘Arim’ or Ujjain or the surrounding territory of Ariana, and/or the French Oriende of the Chansons de Geste).

The Kaukasus is the Caucasus of the Alexander legend – a chain of mountains reaching from the Black Sea to the East, including the Himalayas. Agremuntin is among its peaks. Agremuntin, a fiery mountain, is the home of salamanders and a natural source of asbestos fiber. The king of Agremuntin is Lippidins, or Lepidus, mentioned by Pliny as the king of a fiery people. The Himalayas, however, are not volcanic.
This is an India lavished with mineral wealth; gems encrust the tombs of its kings.

Tolkien’s Trees of the Sun and Moon

I note the similarity of these trees to Tolkien’s conception of the Trees of the Sun and the Moon in Valinor; indeed the same conclusion was reached in Amon Hen, the British fanzine in 1975. While the legendary trees are merely similar to and linked to the celestial bodies, in Tolkien, the fruits of the trees become the Sun and Moon after Morgoth destroys them. The descendant of the Moon-tree is the White Tree of Minas Tirith, emblem of Gondor.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Prester John definitely plays into Golarion's Vudra. This thread continues to delight.

Speaking of marvelous trees, I saw this painting in London last year. Surely is must figure in somewhere.

The Poison Tree


Maybe some of you can help me figure this out...

It's going to be years before Paizo can really even consider publishing anything set in Vudra or a guide to Vudra. While I'd love to write to Paizo (and will enter the Superstar contest, obviously) I have my doubts that an intense focus on the Vudran subcontinent will be a sell, so even if I do break into the established OGL writing field it presumably will be as a generalist.

I'm enjoying the process of researching for my campaign, and I've been putting my raw data up for people to gawk at/use/misuse according to their interests.

What I'm considering is making an OGL/PF campaign setting that isn't Golarion-specific, for either commercial sale or available free, and then letting people shoehorn into their favorite setting. Naturally, a deep understanding of Vudra helps this simply because I don't want to make this area egregiously incompatible with canon (obviously names, gods, and other details would be different). I'm also planning to make it compatible/less work to integrate with with Midgard, if only because I love Zobeck. This is the real reason I've stepped back from a simple write-up of my ideas and instead offered a smorgasbord of sources (I hope this actually inspires people to make their own worlds)-- the messageboards belong to Paizo and all of you and I want intellectual control of my concepts. Some of my RPG writing over the years has drifted out of my control, even into print for profit books without attributation, or has been pirated.

I intend to continue to post my ideas and specifically describe Golarion's 'take' on things for a long while, as this is just a germ of an idea currently, and I don't plan on creating a whole campaign world ex novo. My home campaign will probably use it as its version of Vudra.

Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks-- Jeff


Some 'translations' (generally based on Sanskrit) of words relating to Vudra:

Aghasura (Asura) = Aghaya ‘sin’ + Asura ‘devil’
Ajitash (valley) = Aji ‘unconquered’ + tas ‘fade away, throw’
Anucara = ‘servant’
Ashawar (city or region) = *Ashapura. Ashapura is a RW goddess of the Rajputs, derived from Annapura. It means ‘She who grants wishes.’ The corrupt form Ashawar parallels the city of Peshawar in Pakistan, derived from Purushapura.
Atanapratta (explorer caste): ‘wanderer’ (atanavat[a]) +pratta ‘presented, given’
Azvadeva Pujila (holy text) = As[h]va = ‘horse’ + Deva ‘god’ + ?
Baladatta (girls’ schools) = Bala = strength + Datta = honor, [to be] given
Barakot (region). Compare Arkot, in Tamil Nadu. Barakot[a] is a RW community in Orissa.
Bhuridhana (rich caste) = ‘rich man’
Calikang (monster) = Cali ‘cover’ + kanaka = ‘gold’
Chayya (queen) = ‘shadow’
Chennipon. Compare Chennai (i.e., Madras) (Tamil: ‘face’, ‘pon’ is ‘gold’ in Tamil).
Dhavala (river) = ‘snowy, white’
Gruhastha (god) = Grihastha, ‘house-holder’ or ‘steward’
Hemachandra (city or site), supposedly ‘Seat of the Golden Moon’: literally = ‘golden’ (brown) Moon.
Holika (Asura) = name of RW Asura
Jayalakshmi, Stone Egg of = Jaya ‘victory’ + Lakshmi ‘perception, objective’ (also the Goddess Lakshmi)
Vanaswati Jhonancore (a lady) = Vana[s] ‘water’ + wati ‘lady’; Jhona is a kind of rice
Johar (region): The RW Johar valley is in the Himalayas (Uttarakhand). Johar is also a form of human sacrifice by fire once practiced by some Rajput tribes in order to turn the tide of a war; the victims are the wives and daughters of the family.
Kezavazresthin (merchant caste) = Keshava, ‘uncut hair’ (also a name for Krishna) + Shresthin ‘merchant’
Khar (region) = Khar[a] ‘sharp’ or ‘hind’ or ‘donkey’
Mahajanapadas = ‘great foothold of a tribe;’ the ancient name for an Indian kingdom.
Mizravetta Brahmodya (holy text) = Misra ‘mixing’ + Avetta [Veda] ‘holy text’ + Brahmodya ‘a ritual riddle competition’
Narhari (desert) =Narahari; Nar[a] ‘grass’ or ‘human/man’ + hari ‘yellow’ (prob. ‘the yellow grass’)
Padaprajna (warrior caste) = Pada = ‘to know, reach’ + prajna = ‘wisdom’
Rajah (caste) = ‘king’
Rajput Shivji Shashibhushan (a necromancer) = ‘king’s son’ (Rajaputra)+ conquering Shiva (Shivaji) + Shashi ‘of the hare’ (figuratively, the Moon) + bhushan ‘ornament.’
Raumya (god) = RW ‘evil demon in the train of Siva’
Samudhadra (city) = samud ‘moistened, joyful’ + dadra = ‘running’ or ‘sleepy’.
Sihadraman (city) = Sihadra or Shihadra seems to be a place in Baroda state, south of Vasna or Wasna, a suburb of Ahmedabad. Sihad[a] is also a name (belonging to a historic prince), and a place in central India near Khandwa. It appears to be derived from Simhad[a] (lion). Riman[a] means a ‘pyramidal temple or tower.’
Sikari (region) = Shikari (this is actually Persian) = ‘of hunting’
Sinashakti (Empyreal Lord) = Sina, ‘abundant’ + s[h]akti ‘female power, the Great Goddess’
Suyuddha (goddess) = common noun, Sk. ‘a well fought battle’
Swaniai (queen) = Svani ‘fire’
Trilochan (dragon) = Tri ‘three’ + loka ‘world, plane’ +n[a]; Compare Triloka, the ‘three worlds.’
Udayasankar (town) = udaya ‘rising, going forth’ + shankara ‘doer of good deeds’
Ukhrul (region) = a RW hilly district of Manipur
Vigrahin Patitraka (holy text) = ‘vigrahin’ (waging war) + patit- ‘fallen, dropped’ + raka ‘crystal, gem’
Vimeri (region) Vi = ‘not’ or more likely ‘Vai’ (truly, verily) + Meru ‘high, or a sacred mountain’ (compare Videha, ‘formless’, the name of a kingdom ruled by Sita’s father in what is now Nepal)
Vineshvakhi (god) = Vinesh is an Indian personal name.


I'm working on a few things: Rakshasa from Indian myth (interesting; there are supposed Buddhist Rakshasa and good 'Rakshas' in Nepalese folklore); Undead; Lemuria & Kumari Kandam (including Thongor et al.); more notes on Jinn; and classes from PF and how they or archetypes from them might work in a quasi-Indian setting. Oh, and an Adventure Path outline, but that's going to wait for now.

Regarding the whole Golarion-based Vudra against a generic setting, I've resurrected my notes for a 17th-18th century PF supplement based on the RW Baroque Age (but with magic!). My "Hindustan" setting for that universe is meant to be an amalgam of Hindu mythology with the Mogul Empire and Pirates (because I am fond of them). But the crunch for the setting would be OGL and portable straight into Vudra.


This is where we find that Jeff is getting his masters in Middle Eastern History with a speciality in eastern mythology :)

This stuff is awesome, and man you do a lot of work :) You are going to have Vudra the most well developed part of PF ;)


Shizvestus wrote:

This is where we find that Jeff is getting his masters in Middle Eastern History with a speciality in eastern mythology :)

This stuff is awesome, and man you do a lot of work :) You are going to have Vudra the most well developed part of PF ;)

Actually I have an MLIS (Librarian Masters, concentrating in Children and Schools), and a Masters of Fine Arts in Poetry, though for that I translated and reimagined Tristan poems from Iceland, Brittany, Wales, and France. My BA is in History focusing on Early Modern Europe with a dissertation on the Gypsies in literature and folklore.

I like to read. My wife's brother is a Tibetan monk so I decided to study Tibetan Buddhism, out of curiosity, which went a little crazy-- I found that since many Tibetan Buddhist divinities are versions of Hindu gods, that going back to the source was kind of a logical step. Meanwhile I'd been cobbling together a game world based on Old World mythologies with a map based on Fra Mauro's, and I spent a lot of time on India because it looms so large in the medieval and renaissance Western world's imagination of the wondrous.

Now I'm getting a book on Indian card and board games and Doniger's "Hindus: an Alternative History" for Xmas -- instead of game books. So I've kind of become obsessed. I guess that is what you call it when you fail to load up on gaming hardcovers...


Jeff de luna wrote:
...I decided to study Tibetan Buddhism, out of curiosity, which went a little crazy-- I found that since many Tibetan Buddhist divinities are versions of Hindu gods, that going back to the source was kind of a logical step. Meanwhile I'd been cobbling together a game world based on Old World mythologies with a map based on Fra Mauro's, and I spent a lot of time on India because it looms so large in the medieval and renaissance Western world's imagination of the wondrous.

I'd say it looms pretty darn large as a source of the wondrous in Western imagination in modern times as well. There's a reason all those rock groups started to use sitars, after all.


Kajehase wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:
...I decided to study Tibetan Buddhism, out of curiosity, which went a little crazy-- I found that since many Tibetan Buddhist divinities are versions of Hindu gods, that going back to the source was kind of a logical step. Meanwhile I'd been cobbling together a game world based on Old World mythologies with a map based on Fra Mauro's, and I spent a lot of time on India because it looms so large in the medieval and renaissance Western world's imagination of the wondrous.
I'd say it looms pretty darn large as a source of the wondrous in Western imagination in modern times as well. There's a reason all those rock groups started to use sitars, after all.

Indeed! I've wondered for a while why India is so neglected in gaming, -- even sub-Saharan Africa has Nyambe, one of my favorite supplements. Perhaps its the sheer complexity of the region, but that never scared off game writers from the equally complex environment of East Asia.

The lack of a synergy of kung fu movies and anime, perhaps? Bollywood has kind of become more popular over here, but hasn't really entered the mainstream. There's a bit more filtering out of the UK, for obvious reasons, than out of the US, particularly in the last few years. Most of it has a Victorian aspect to it, not a medieval/renaissance one, however. During the 17th century the economy and population of India rivaled (exceeded) that of Europe. But famines, imperialism, and fragmentation means that India is only now again a world power. In the 70s and 80s when a lot of RPG tropes were being formed, India and its culture were significantly less important to the US than today -outside of spirituality and Gandhi, that is.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Maybe you should apply for our open developer position. :)


Erik Mona wrote:
Maybe you should apply for our open developer position. :)

+1

Jeff the work you have done is amazing...

The Gallery of New South Wales often has exhibitions of Asian art including Indian art. I dont know if these links will help.

Himalayan art

South Asian art

Southeast-Asian art

Hopefully it will give you some leads or inspiration.


Erik Mona wrote:
Maybe you should apply for our open developer position. :)

I've been considering it. However, my wife has a fairly lucrative and good job down here in California.

EDIT: She said "go for it." You'll be hearing from me.

Thanks!


+1 to Jeff for the Job :) Its my dream job, but hey...

Jeff, tell me more of the Danu Indian relationship with the Danu Celtic Relationship... would these Early Indians be the proto Celts that came west ?


Shizvestus wrote:

+1 to Jeff for the Job :) Its my dream job, but hey...

Jeff, tell me more of the Danu Indian relationship with the Danu Celtic Relationship... would these Early Indians be the proto Celts that came west ?

Well... it's kind of my fringe theory. I was trying to come up with a coherent cross-cultural origin for various fantasy races in my near-Earth setting. Because of the common motifs and Eden/Meru myths I placed the origin point of the humanoids in the Himalayas, and I noticed the similarities between Danu and Don/Danaan. Both are river/water deities. Their people are said to be technically and magically advanced. The Tuatha and the Danava both have flying cities and magic weapons. The Tuatha are said to come from the East (Lochlann, which can mean either Scandinavia or Eurasia). The Danava were defeated by the gods and driven out of India and their legend has been linked to either the Aryan incursions/cultural shift or to the drying up of a major river (the Sarasvati or the Anahita = Danu).

Here's the relevant section from my game world (Aisnes are Asura and Aesir):

The Hidden Folk are the tall Fey people who dwell underground or in the mountains. They are fascinated by fate, mortality, gambling, music, craftwork, and magic. Síde share an association with Water with the Nokke, though they are more likely to be linked to snow, rain, clouds, fog, or islands. Water, snow, or fog often separates the Underworld and Otherworld from the mundane universe of Humans. This also means they have a mystical link to storm, hurricanes, and ice. The Síde seem to be the creations or children of the Aisnes, like the Dweorgs; or some say they were the Alfar who chose the Aisnes’ side in the war of the gods; in Ynde, both are from Apsa, or Aban, ‘the waters.’
Síde live in a sexually egalitarian society. They are as likely to be ruled by women as men. The Síde acknowledge the gods, but do not worship them; they prefer to interact with them as more powerful beings of the Otherworld. For this reason, the Síde are famed for their Magia (Arcane magic). The Síde, however, encourage Humans to venerate them as demi-gods.
Aracuse (Arachosia) west of the Ynde river was once holy to Doön (Danu, Anahita, Anaitis, or Sarasvati), their goddess. None dwell there now, though their ruins may be found and explored, in once fertile lands now covered in desert. According to one legend, the God of Fire (Agni, an Aisnes and supposed ally) burned the lands so that the Síde fled. The Síde went from ‘the northern islands of the world’ to Iverne on the northwest edge of the Ocean, where they ruled as gods much of Erope, until Humans led by Mil seized their lands and drove them into the Otherworld; this was when Aleksandros was ruler of half the world. The kings of Gandary or Saptsindhu, Lunar-kings or the Purus or Paurus (including the famous Porus who confronted Aleksandros), were of Síde descent.
According to the sages of Ynde, the Danavas were demonic rebel Asuras under the Daitya King Bali, son of Virocana the Asura King, Maya, and Kalanemi (Star-Wheel, or Arianrhod), who were driven into the Ocean by Sakra after they attempted to storm Mount Meru. They built great cities in the valley of the Ynde under Maya the architect-illusionist before the coming of the Dievas, as well as Tripuri, the three cities of Gold, Silver, and Iron (which the Ivernians call Murias, Gorias, and Falias), and Lankapuri in Trapobane. All were destroyed.
A branch of the Síde loyal to the Devas called the Vidyadharas dwell in the mountains of Cambaye. They, like their kin, are supreme in the arts of science and magia.
The Ecclesic Ivernians call them the descendants of Beothach, son of Iarbonel, who was a descendant of Aitecht or Ailthecht or Fathochta or Faruta, son of Magog, and they were cousins of the nations called Partholonian, the Fir Bolg and the Britons. In their traditions, the Síde became Fey through magic.
Síde have a relative Otherness trait of 14. They tend to be Lawful.
Other Names: Danavas, Disir, Huldrefolk, Norn, the People of Doön, Fatae, Parcae, Norns, Sudice, Narecnitsi, Dolas, Yazatas, Liosalfar, Murueide Tütred, the Snow Maidens, the People of the Deep Earth, the White Lords and Ladies. Oya is their queen in Etiope; in Wendland, Gardariki, Lyfland and Cvenland, Murueit (Marzanna, Morena) is their goddess-ruler.


Oh, sorry, forgot to answer the last question:

The Danava/Danu/Side in my world were not really Celts or Indians (these were humans) but Fey who existed in a either a parasitic or tutelary position (depending on one's point of view) to the wider human culture they influenced. This parallels the old-school belief that the Aos Si were a pre-Celtic race.


Rite Publishing has something called Sutra Magic coming out soon. Looks like it is related to their Jade Oath Asian world.


..... Wow .... thats .... awesome .... :)

Have you looked in on the Norse Gods for Pathfinder posts ? You might like some of the stuff that has been put there. Otherwise you have put some awesome things there.

I have theorized that the Celts came out of the Oriental east in waves, or at least the peoples of the Island and western Europe the Formorians, (Early Norse?) the Danann and such...

Contributor

Jeff de luna wrote:

I've been considering it. However, my wife has a fairly lucrative and good job down here in California.

EDIT: She said "go for it." You'll be hearing from me.

Good!

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jeff de luna wrote:
Asuras and Indian Legend...

Okay, lets look at this info from the direction that we're most likely to use it. Even though it's likely to be a good long while before we get to explore mainland Vudra, we've already seen two asuras creep into other works (and onto the cover of Cult of the Ebon Destroyers), and I suspect that by the end of 2011 opportunities to create more will present themselves. With the release of Bestiary 2 our philosophy for outsider races is pretty obvious: I want to see a CR 2 familiar contender, a CR 20 boss, and then a range of creatures of intermediate CRs. We've got the adhukait at 7 and the beatific one at CR 9, so we're pretty well set for the low intermediates. Neither of these really falls into to lemure or dretch, flunky level, so it might not be a bad idea to consider a basic, CR 1 - CR 3 mook. So then we're talking:

CR 1: ______
CR 2: ______ (Familiar)
CR 7: Adhukait
CR 9: Beatific One
CR 13: ______
CR 17: ______
CR 20: ______ (Boss)

These upper-level CRs are place holders, and that's a bit of a jump between CRs 2 & 7, but you get the gist.

So lets start looking for some ideas to plug in here.

Aghasura, an asura that turned into a snake so big it was mistaken for a cave.

Banasura, an asura with a thousand arms that even the gods are afraid of. We don’t currently have a good straight brawler asura. This guy might be a good inspiration for such a creature.

Chanda, or rather the art of Chamunda, also has a lot of potential for a monstrous asura. Where most multi-armed deities look mystical, art that depicts a corpse-like Chamunda makes her look spidery and really creepy. Taking inspiration from a goddess isn't quite the direction I want to go with these, but I'm not seeing much about the monster Chanda out there. In any case, there might be something here.

The Danavas with their association with bows seems like an obvious shtick, and with their precedence for being defeated, something derivative of this group might make a cool low CR choice. I actually quite like the idea of a CR 1 archer fiend, where most of the other low-level fiends are straight brawlers.

Gajasura, meaning elephant demon. Well this just seems obvious (and probably high level).

Hiranyakashipu, who hated a god and tried to kill his son has a lot of potential, especially with how his defenses resulted in his very specific slaying. That he was born on Earth due to a curse and forced his people to worship him as a god are also pretty interesting. Maybe some kind of curse-collecting god slayer/impostor with some elaborate resistances. Might be something there...

Holika, who was immune to fire but still burned to death. That's pretty cool. And it'd be good to get another female fiend in here. Holi is a relatively well known Hindu holiday, though, which might be reason enough to shy away from this.

Madhu and Kaitabh, who tried to kill Bramaha and where rent into 12 pieces for their crimes. Cool. So cool we've already used them as the dualistic adhukait (combine the names, nix the initial "m" and final "abh"). The art wasn't quite what I had hoped for this, but it is what is is... or it is what it is until we put them in a Bestiary and I order a new piece of art for them. I'm only referencing these guys so we don't repeat ourselves.

Mahishasura, who could turn into a water buffalo (weak starting premise) but was huge and powerful, defeated Indra, drove all the gods out of heaven, and could not be killed by any man so - in Witch-King-like fashion - was brought down by a woman. I'd like to know more about this guy, as he seems like a good inspirational choice for a high-level (even CR 20) asura.

Mayasura, king and chief architect of the underworld and an example of a good asura. Even though as a "monster" there's not a lot for this guy to offer, the Tripura, the three flying cities he created that Shiva struck (torched?) out of the sky for their impiety is pretty cool. These might make for an interesting asura homeland. Three burning, flying cities that tool around Hell... well that sounds all kinds of awesome.

Nivatakavacha, the ocean-dwelling asuras. I’d like to know more about these guys, as they seems like good contenders for the water-dwelling variation most outsider races eventually get.

Narakasura, power-mad asura king who conquered and ruled heaven and earth, but was finally beheaded. Kind of like the doru div, I like the idea of a big, powerful, fiendish head monster. That’s one way to take it, but I’d need to read more on this guy.

Rahu, the snake that swallows the sun during eclipses. Cool, but probably doesn’t need to be an asura. Actually, did we mention him already? Wasn’t there something about a big snake in Hell in the beatific one write up? Or rather, I remember there was, but also that the beatific one was WAY over and got a series chopping to make it fit. I’ll have to look into this.

Raktabija, whose name means "blood seed." Every time a drop of his blood hits the ground a new version of him forms. Awesome. But from a design standpoint, duplicating monsters are nightmares. That's not to say we wouldn't take a new asura in this direction, but we'd have to come up with some sort of tricky work around for this cool, but easily game breaking ability.

Shukra, the guru of the asuras. He’s not a bad guy, but that title is too cool to just ignore.

Surapadman, Shi-Lankan demon who turned into a peacock. There’s something about an evil peacock fiend that really appeals to me. This would be one of those creatures that’s such a weird idea that it would totally live or die by its art. If an artist just didn’t get it, the whole concept would seem lame. But if someone really knocked the illustration out of the park, it’s instant awesome. Regardless, this is probably a second or third tier idea and doesn’t need to be in the initial group.

Upasunda, one of two asura brothers who could only be killed by his brother. I was already thinking about putting a monstrous version of the Upas tree, concentrically mentioned up thread, on my list. This guy and that tree have nothing to do with each other, but that the two came up here is a weird coincidence. It’s a bit of a mix and match, but there might be something to a fiend-poison-plant combo. Upasunda’s also interesting as his story includes the asura Tilottama, the seductress of the gods. And there we probably have our asura succubus. Hell does need seductresses after all.

Vritra, giant serpent and personification of drought. Another dragon-like creature here, and one that probably doesn’t need to be an asura, but still cool.

Okay, so I obviously fell down a well here, but there’s one more thing I want to bring up. No matter what we do or where we take our inspirations from, we’re not going to pull names straight from Hindu mythology. It’s one thing to have monsters like hydras and personalities like Moloch that come from ancient mythology, but in the case of Hinduism we’re dealing with a living religion. So we’re not going to stat up Shiva or Kali any sooner than we would Moses or Saint Peter. The trick is that there’s a lot of blurriness and overlap between Hinduism and the cultural epics of India, and without having any experts on staff to explain were the borders are, I don’t want to accidentally offend anyone’s faith. So, whatever we create, regardless of what inspires it, needs a new name and a unique place in the Pathfinder cosmology. I know this gets a little hypocritical, the creatures we’re talking about are called asuras after all, and there are already angels and devils in the game, but it’s a topic something we want to be sensitive about and respectful of. That means we’re going to be looking for some names for new asuras, so if anyone has any thoughts on how we might create such names, philosophies that might be good to follow, or any just cool names they’d like to throw in the hat, I’d love to hear them.

I'm going to go... not... write on message boards... now.


Wesley,

I'll respond more in depth when I can get to it (this week is my daughter's 1st birthday). Plus I'm putting together my resume/writing sample.

However, for the naming conventions, like the [blank]daemons, the ending -asura is pretty much a generic one.

Mahishasura literally means "buffalo-Asura."

So tacking on a Sanskrit prefix which describes the asura to the word asur[a] (the final a is dropped in Hindi, so it is sometimes left off proper names in Indian sources] would be a pretty safe way to go. The ending asuri would be a female of the asura type (like the Beatific Ones = probably Siddhasuri). Something "of the Asuras" would have Asura as a prefix.

Just makes sure the compound word is not used in the real world and you're good to go. The vast majority of Asura proper names have been mentioned in my and your posts.

A prime example of the cultural issues might be Gajasura, which was a demon possessing an elephant, but Shiva drove out the demon by possessing it himself and dancing the demon to death to avoid hurting the elephant body. Despite the example of Chaugnar-Faung (or the Tower of the Elephant, which is a mixed case) we should not make elephants be demonic since elephants and elephant-headed entities tread close to Ganesha, a very popular and benevolent god. So an elephant-headed celestial might be a good choice, but not an asura.

Personally, I doubt if anyone would object to "asura" "daitya" or "danava" et al. since these are terms, as you mention above, akin to "demon", "devil" or "spirit" in English. Jinns are in the Koran, Yazatas (Azatas) in the Avesta, and Planetars, Solars, etc. are from Theosophy and western magical tradition. One important consideration is that Buddhism and later Hinduism rejects incarnate Evil (i.e., the evil subtype). Even demons can become enlightened or unite with the gods.

Unlike in Christianity, however, many asura, as we can see in these posts, were slain and are gone, except as dramatic characters. The Christian demons and devils, of course, are supposed to suffer their ends in the Apocalypse; thus their presence in other worlds doesn't violate demonologic theology if one assumes a shared multiverse. So even if the named asuras didn't suffer their fates in Golarion, the Hindu response might be "why didn't they?" Their gods transcend Earth, after all...

Almost all Hindus I know are very tolerant, and don't see artistic depictions of stories based on their mythology as blasphemous unless it disrespects Vishnu and his avatars, Shiva, or Brahma, and their consorts and children. Even the Vedic gods like Indra are fair game. I note Bali and Prahlada as important exceptions, and a few Buddhist redeemed asuras, but overall, the word asura, like rakshasa, can be used in folklore and fairy-tales readily, including invented modern ones, like Pathfinder.

However, a Hindu/Indian-originated Fantasy RPG (this is a supposition, but I think a straightforward one) might simply have the higher gods active in an alternate universe with alternate avatars, epithets, etc. A lot of Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist cosmologies verge on science fiction and modern Hindus are known to read the descriptions of the universe in the Puranas and the epics as describing the solar system and near stars.

Obviously this approach is not really kosher for PF given the OGL license. But parallel entities are more likely to make Vudra acceptable than a complete absence of similar principles and forces. A Hindu or Buddhist player is welcome (like a Christian) to impute higher forces via their own gloss into Golarion. I know religious Christians have given the world's most popular RPG a monotheist reinvention to avoid dealing with polytheism, and similarily, a believer in Vishnu could assert that her god's avatars in Golarion are several canonical entities. The problem would be in doing that interpretation for them.

As for the CR chart (mooks to Big Bad) I'll have to think on it.

The Exchange

Jeff's post is spot on. Most Indians do not consider depiction of creatures from the mythos as anything sacreligious outside of the main gods. In fact, there tends to be so many regional variants that at times conflict with one another and people dont "believe" that such creatures are real (other than some local haunts and ghosts).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I don't know anything about Indian mythology but I'm looking forward to seeing Paizo expand into such areas. If some of you experts wanted to band together and write a 3PP book on Hinduism in Pathfinder I would definitely buy a copy of that.

Anyone have a recommendation for a book that is a good intro to Indian myths?


If you want to go straight to the source, the Bhagavad-Gita is a pretty interesting read.


deinol wrote:

I don't know anything about Indian mythology but I'm looking forward to seeing Paizo expand into such areas. If some of you experts wanted to band together and write a 3PP book on Hinduism in Pathfinder I would definitely buy a copy of that.

Anyone have a recommendation for a book that is a good intro to Indian myths?

Oddly, the fiction book "Ka" by Roberto Calasso is one of my favorites.

I believe Wesley recommended "The Little Book of Hindu Deities" and I have to concur.
The epics, of course, are a good choice, but can be overwhelming without context. There is a book called "Classical Hindu Mythology" by Cornelia Dimmitt which summarizes the Puranas, which kind of tie everything together.

Contributor

deinol wrote:
Anyone have a recommendation for a book that is a good intro to Indian myths?

Want the import of a cultural epic combined with the accessibility of a graphic novel, all with a dash of Samurai Jack? Here you go:

Ramayama: Divine Loophole

Oh, and what Jeff said.

The Exchange

If anyone can get their hands on the Mahabharat TV Series from the late 80s (all 96 episodes!!!), it is well worth the watch and probably a great intro to indian mythology. I believe BBC re-aired a subtitled version. The series is really well made, with excellent cast, setting, score etc. for an indian series of that time, and also very comprehensive and compelling.

Dark Archive

While I'm loving this thread, my only exposure to anything even tangential to Indian lore comes from reading Zelazny's Lord of Light a dozen times... So it's all fascinating and new to me!


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest since the beginning and have enjoyed all the work you guys have posted. I am not anywhere nearly as well-versed in Indian culture, mythology, and lore as I would like to be and this is a big help. I especially appreciate your interpretations of how to approach adapting these myths to the game as well as the listing of reference material I can use for my own research.

Jeff de luna wrote:
Rite Publishing has something called Sutra Magic coming out soon. Looks like it is related to their Jade Oath Asian world.

Indeed, it is. It is a Pathfinder conversion of the rules for sutra magic that are in Heroes of the Jade Oath. Though it is called sutra magic, it is mainly devoted to the casting of ofuda, which have sutras written on them, and is a feat-based magic system. The approach I took to this form of magic has taken a mainly Taoist, Buddhist, and Shinto view of the casting of such magic through the lense of a movie camera off of the pages of manga. So how much it resembles any sort of sutra magic from Indian mythology isn't really well comprehended by me since Indian culture is not my strong suit.


Whew! I just sent in my application for the Dev position.

Thanks for all your support.

Jeff Erwin
(aka Jeff de Luna)

Happy Holidays!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What I'd really be up for is someone doing an rp setting based on "Lords of Light." Hindu religion, Descendants of Earth survivors on an alien world, and chromepunk... what a combination.


Jeff -

Best of luck on the developer position!

Whether they do, or do not, take you up on this, have you ever looked at Chaosium's "monographs" system? What you've done so far is definitly publishable as a monograph...

Can we get you to write up an Indian-themed adventure path? Or help convert an existing path into an Indian-themed setting?


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pachristian wrote:

Jeff -

Best of luck on the developer position!

Whether they do, or do not, take you up on this, have you ever looked at Chaosium's "monographs" system? What you've done so far is definitly publishable as a monograph...

Can we get you to write up an Indian-themed adventure path? Or help convert an existing path into an Indian-themed setting?

I am aware of the Chaosium products, and have considered doing something there-- perhaps BRP India. I have "Mysteries of the Raj" sitting by me right now. That product is OK, but very introductory and compares unfavorably with the better writing and layout of "Mysteries of Tibet."

I do have an adventure path outline I have been working on. It's based around the six Indian seasons, and involves the gods, dice, Asura, and planar intrigues.

One image I want to fit into the Monsoon adventure is a fight in the pouring rain by the ghats along a sacred river. There's also some Himalayan trekking, temple-caves, palaces floating in lakes, monkey-people, pitched battles with chariots and war elephants, dark jungles, mountain-top palace-castles, alchemical cannons, reincarnated godlings, Lemurian giants, and dinosaur-crocodiles and dire hippos.

I thought about re-envisioning Kingmaker for Vudra, using the region between the Narmada and Tapti rivers as a model (historically a wasteland and boundary during the medieval and renaissance period). That was a forested, hilly area with sacred caves, tigers, nomadic tribespeople, the setting of the Jungle book, and the Surat/Khambhat/Bharuch trading cities. It's in this Vudran analogue that I located Sihadrimon, allowing for a limited cross-over with the Curse of the Crimson Throne path.


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OK, as promised I have cogitated on the issues mentioned by Wesley.

Possible Asuras for Pathfinder
The explanation of the Adhukait answers a question I had, actually, about where it came from.
CR 1
The ‘bog-standard’ Asura. The Thai Asuras are clad in golden armor, with black skin, boar-like tusks, bulging black-pupils in their eyes, and green fur or hair. The Japanese Asura are depicted with a third eye in the middle of their brow, with lids vertically oriented. Traditional Indian art depicts Asuras as human-like, with mustaches, long black hair, and yellow skin. They are stripped to the waist and carry machete-like blades. Sometimes they have red or green skin. The mustaches and generally crude features (including oversized ears and eyes) are pretty common; I also have seen pictures of Asuras with bestial, boar-like faces. Basically, they look like Orcs or ugly, hairy, men.
Female Asuris are depicted as being as beautiful as the Devis (perhaps a different kind?).
Perhaps, given the Asura’s warlike bent, these basic Asura should be CR 2, like Dretches. The ‘Asura temperament’ (a type of Raja humor) in Ayurveda is proud, brave, selfish, irascible, stealthy, and unhealthy.
CR 2 (Familiar)
Ahvana = ‘summon, invoke.’ Asuravidya is witchcraft or goetic magic invoking Asuras. Like in Europe, cats (Mardjara or Maryana, the ‘clean one’ or Bidala) (but also leopards and tigers) were seen as the standard familiars for black magicians. Sucaka is a name which means ‘informer, finder’ and is applied to demons, imps, dogs, and cats.
= perhaps Sucakasura, though the name sounds unfortunate. The other imp/familiar terms, like Daka and Dakini, can either mean good or evil entities, and are deified in Tibet, so that term is inappropriate. Another term, Bhut[a] (‘Bhoot’, not ‘but’) means ghost, evil spirit, and tutelary (neutral) spirit, so its range of means might be best applied to a different creature.
A Bidalasura would be a demon-cat. I am thinking something small but tiger-like might be neat. The association with Rakshasa (despite the I think great idea of allowing them different heads, tiger = Rakshasa for most gamers) would also be cool. I imagine the Asura and the Rakshasa are allies/rivals. Perhaps the totem animals consumed by the first Rakshasa could have been this familiar type.
CR 13
Master Illusionist (Mayavin[a]); Asuras are said to be powerful in that school. They cast illusions using mantras (a technique whose users are called Mantrika; this would actually be an appropriate Wizard archetype for Vudra). Kautilyan Shambara is the Asura patron of witchcraft and thievery. He is described as a Dasa, i.e., a dark-skinned barbarian.
Another feature of Indian withcraft is a ‘swallow whole’ (i.e., they devour livestock in one bite) power that many witches are supposed to have.
CR 17
Perhaps the ascetic-type of Asura—the greatest Asuras gain their power to challenge the gods via yoga and other forms of devout self-denial and meditation. Naked to the waist, wearing loincloths. I have this strange idea that scrawny, lightly dressed people with three eyes and unusual skin tones with uber-Magical abilities might be very threatening and confusing to people used to Balors and Pit Fiends. Plus they can become very large or very small, levitate, curse at will, and are sages (Rishi) – innately wise and knowledgeable, and nigh invulnerable to physical damage. The great failure of the Asuras is pride and hauteur; a truly humble Asura becomes something else, a redeemed being. Thus most of the ascetic Asuras never properly acknowledge their specific weaknesses that prevent them from perfect invulnerability—instead they fall victim to the fine print in their boons granted by Brahma. The exceptions become like Devas and faithful servants of the Gods and Good.

I'm going to take a break for the most part until the new year on posting. Too busy or too busy relaxing. I just finished a degree & need some quality family time. But I'll be back come January.


I would definitely buy the Indian-themed adventure path. I would also buy a "Kingmaker Conversion" series. But thinking about it from a publishing viewpoint, I don't know if that would work. You see, the artwork (to help establish mood) would be expensive, and associated text would be fairly bulky - the 'supplement' might be nearly as big as the adventure path. *Sigh*.

Anyway, keep up the great work.


I would definitely buy the Indian-themed adventure path. I would also buy a "Kingmaker Conversion" series. But thinking about it from a publishing viewpoint, I don't know if that would work. You see, the artwork (to help establish mood) would be expensive, and associated text would be fairly bulky - the 'supplement' might be nearly as big as the adventure path. *Sigh*.

Anyway, keep up the great work, and happy holidays!


pachristian wrote:

I would definitely buy the Indian-themed adventure path. I would also buy a "Kingmaker Conversion" series. But thinking about it from a publishing viewpoint, I don't know if that would work. You see, the artwork (to help establish mood) would be expensive, and associated text would be fairly bulky - the 'supplement' might be nearly as big as the adventure path. *Sigh*.

Anyway, keep up the great work, and happy holidays!

Quick response-- well, for an Indian AP, I'd have to write and playtest it first. (Speaking of which, if there are any players in the South Bay/Monterey Bay area in CA who want to try this out, let me know). In terms of quick and dirty 3rd party pdf publishing, there are a lot (stemming from the Raj and the Orientalist movement, as well as native work) of public domain images out there on India that could be used for color illustrations or even to inspire a scene or location. That could limit the art budget to characters and critical events. Anyway, it would be a while before anything is ready, so there's time to think on it.

Oh, and I'm an artist/cartographer. That might cut costs for me...
I think Jade Regent, as far as we know about it, has the right idea for introducing a non-Western culture: have the PCs be outsiders and introduce concepts piecemeal. So most likely in an Indian AP starting characters would be affiliated with a pseudo-East Indian Company, guards to a merchant or ambassador, or have some other reason to be in Vudra/India.


Any "Rajamaker" type conversion would be a easy way for me to try out beasties and such without having to make up the whole region/storyline. But if I posted my notes they would be here or a free, non-commercial blog type thing.

Dark Archive

Jeff de luna wrote:

CR 1

The ‘bog-standard’ Asura. The Thai Asuras are clad in golden armor, with black skin, boar-like tusks, bulging black-pupils in their eyes, and green fur or hair. The Japanese Asura are depicted with a third eye in the middle of their brow, with lids vertically oriented. Traditional Indian art depicts Asuras as human-like, with mustaches, long black hair, and yellow skin. They are stripped to the waist and carry machete-like blades. Sometimes they have red or green skin. The mustaches and generally crude features (including oversized ears and eyes) are pretty common; I also have seen pictures of Asuras with bestial, boar-like faces. Basically, they look like Orcs or ugly, hairy, men.

Based on this description, I'm not seeing much difference between a Asura and an Oni. Would it be out of line to use the same sorts of statistics for both, or are the baseline Asura somewhat smaller than the baseline Oni?


Set wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:

CR 1

The ‘bog-standard’ Asura. The Thai Asuras are clad in golden armor, with black skin, boar-like tusks, bulging black-pupils in their eyes, and green fur or hair. The Japanese Asura are depicted with a third eye in the middle of their brow, with lids vertically oriented. Traditional Indian art depicts Asuras as human-like, with mustaches, long black hair, and yellow skin. They are stripped to the waist and carry machete-like blades. Sometimes they have red or green skin. The mustaches and generally crude features (including oversized ears and eyes) are pretty common; I also have seen pictures of Asuras with bestial, boar-like faces. Basically, they look like Orcs or ugly, hairy, men.

Based on this description, I'm not seeing much difference between a Asura and an Oni. Would it be out of line to use the same sorts of statistics for both, or are the baseline Asura somewhat smaller than the baseline Oni?

They do strongly resemble each other and I suspect the Oni might have been influenced by Buddhist art depicting Asuras. The bulging eyes represent anger, and the fangs, animalistic ferocity. Maybe the boar-headed, mustachioed version might be better as a low level Asura simply to keep them distinctive.


I have been reading Wendy Doniger's Hindus: An Alternative History (a holiday gift), which is just possibly required reading for an in-depth study of the mythology and theology of Hinduism for a Vudra game. I'd say that access to an even more introductory text would be a good idea as a supplement.
Her ideas are somewhat controversial, but she usually flags them when they are. She also has a sense of humor, which leavens things a bit.

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