Vudra and "Indian Flavored" RPGs


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Levis wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

One thousand double rainbows could only express one tenth of the joy this thread has given me.

PRINTAN and PUTTAN in my fluff folder.

Dhanyavadaha. I thank Levis for getting the ball rolling. I'm having a great time. I made vegetarian curry this evening for Diwali (it started on the 5th), since I'm soaking in so much. I love learning stuff (and sharing, so I suppose, that is why I'm a librarian/teacher).

You're welcome Jeff!

I'm amazed at how this all has unfolded. There's so much here! I wish I was eating curry ... Haha!

But my question remains, where is Irori's domain?

There are examples in 3.5 and before of pantheons residing in planes that weren't aligned with all their members. That might be the best explanation if we don't simply place him in Axis instead of Nirvana.

An alternate set of thoughts might he has a demiplane in the Ethereal Plane (the Akashic plane), or that his location is a mystery. He could still walk amongst humanity as the Perfect Human, in disguise.

Contributor

Jeff de luna wrote:


Hmm. How would Vudrans believe their language is the language of the Gos (CS, p.39, last paragraph) if that is so... I imagine they acknowledge the existence of the non-Vudran pantheons. Perhaps we should read "the gods" here as Vudran gods, though it kind of undermines the evident sense of cultural superiority here. We also know that Celestial is a distinct language. Perhaps these are the beliefs of non-Divine casters, i.e., nearly all the rest of the population, based on what the priesthood tells them. But the gods need not be liars; merely the priests... though that would require some organization, which would be difficult with thousands of deities (many probably have only one cleric, I'd guess). The true names of deities are possibly not what they are called in ordinary Vudran society. South Asian deities often have many names, and many avatars.
I think the gods of Golarion are meant to be objectively real, i.e., their identities are not relative to the viewer, though their appearance and mythology might be.
This is similar to another cultural issue. Caste in Vudra appears to reflect karma and past misdeeds/virtues. This can be verified via magic, presumably. Is caste therefore a perfectly fair and true system in Vudra, or is it imperfect or deceptive? Certainly the majority of Vudrans accept their caste and its dharma, which suggests that most divinations affirm the justice of rebirth. Is this a conspiracy as well?
I'm wondering out loud here. Anyone have any insights?

Names of the deities aside - 'cause who knows how we're going to square all that - the caste/karma issue is very interesting.

First of all, have we said in print that Vudra has castes? I makes total sense, but I'm just checking. I'd check in my copy of the campaign setting... but, you see, it's open to the spread on Ustalav right now and... it's heavy... and my coffee's not done yet.

Second, spells to detect karma. Well that sounds awesome. No idea what that would mean besides effectively being a detect caste spell... which also sounds interesting. If we ever did a Vudra AP - no promises - karma seems like a fantastic new rules component. In the same way we did achievement feats in Legacy of Fire and kingdom building stuff in Kingmaker we try to add some weird new rules component to each AP. Having a pool of karma that you track during the course of the AP, or you get a pool of at the beginning to determine your caste and it can somehow fluctuate seems pretty fascinating. Although in the real world humans might not be able to break out of their castes, in Golarion might it be a more flexible thing for extraordinary individuals like the PCs? The idea of being able to start small but end the AP as a Buddha-like figure (if you want to go that route) sounds really interesting.

I could see this figuring into alignment somehow... but that's a murky pool. Still. NEAT NEAT NEAT idea!

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Oh, also, while we're talking about this, let me drop two awesome links:

Ghee Happy: Home of Ramayana: Divine Loophole, The Little book of Hindu Deities, and similarly great stuff.

Pardon my Hindi: Author and artist Sanjay Patel's site... which sadly seems to be down right now, but hopefully not for long.


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:


Names of the deities aside - 'cause who knows how we're going to square all that - the caste/karma issue is very interesting.

First of all, have we said in print that Vudra has castes? I makes total sense, but I'm just checking. I'd check in my copy of the campaign setting... but, you see, it's open to the spread on Ustalav right now and... it's heavy... and my coffee's not done yet.

Second, spells to detect karma. Well that sounds awesome. No idea what that would mean besides effectively being a...

Well, caste is mentioned under the Vudran entry under human ethnicities. The equivalent, however, is probably "jati" rather than "varna"-- both are translated as caste in English.

Karma was discussed in a very sketchy way in the 2nd ed. "Legends and Lore" book, but was not very fleshed out. I mostly was a means to discover what you reincarnated as when you died (the worst result was "slug").
That book is extremely problematic because of its approach to RE deities. Alignment is really hard to apply to Indian mythology.
In PF terms, however, higher karma is almost always an indication of Lawful behavior with a lesser tendency toward Good. It is possible to accrue good karma by acting in a way that would be interpreted as evil by mortals if that is your karmic role in the universe. It is also possible to gain good karma by accident. One story has a dog behind chased in a circle around a temple of Siva, and because this was a pious ritual, when his pursuers caught him and killed him, he was reincarnated as a human. The intention of the dog was irrelevant. (This is from "Myths of the Dog-Man" by David Gordon White, a pretty interesting book (to me)).
The issue with karma mechanically is that because pious acts or following one's dharma can be unclear, it means that Knowledge (religion) is pretty critical to puzzling it out.
Note that if a Vudran Paladin archetype/variant uses Detect Karma in theory a pious but evil Rakshasa or Asura would seem perfectly OK. Thus it would resemble "Detect Law."
Now here's the kicker: being cursed to evil deeds or chaotic behavior could ultimately be one's dharma, as part of the cosmic plan of the gods or the necessary turn of the Wheel of Ages (worlds must devolve before they can be reborn), and by acting on this plan, consciously or not, can result in a higher birth as well.
So "Detect Dharma" could be a very interesting divination spell. A character might choose between a horrible fate that is dharmically appointed, or perhaps rebel and suffer a lower incarnation in the future. One's dharma tends to follow one's rebirths, so avoidance becomes harder and harder.
Hence the appeal of Buddhism to some. Escape from samsara isn't just an escape from caste restrictions, which are enforced by karmic accrual, but also gives your future rebirths freedom from preordained fate.
These are my thoughts, and may be mistaken, though there is little in the way of orthodoxy in this mythology.


From my notes:

Baghaut
The Weretigers of India

Note: I’ve always been interested in (i.e., a rabid fan) of tigers. The whole Weretiger trope in our favorite game tends to hew a little closely to the Western lycanthrope for my taste, and so I’ve been unearthing the folklore of Indian man-tigers for Vudra.

“Baghaut” is the most common name for a shapeshifting tiger, being derived, in popular etymology, from Vyaghra* Bhuta, the Tiger-ghost, but Vyaghra-hata ‘killed by a tiger’ is also given as the original. Baughat are often placated or worshipped by forest dwellers, and can protect their followers from mundane tigers. Roosters and alcohol are the usual offerings, though lanterns, rice, beans, male sheep, and pigs are also mentioned (male sacrifices seem to be standard). Other names for the weretiger are Bagahu or Bagh-bhut.

Baghaut are humans who have been ‘slain’ by a tiger and returned as shapeshifting ghosts or spirits, taking either human, tiger, or human-headed tiger form. They may also take the form of a ghostly fire or light in the jungle.

The word Baghaut can also apply to a post or cairn marking the spot where a tiger has killed a villager. Sometimes a pole with a red flag is erected. The local ‘medicine men’ are charged with protecting against the Baghaut and making sure it is satisfied. Generally, both the victims and the worshipers of the tiger spirit are of the ‘unclean’ forest peoples or the lower castes.

The Baghaut lead other spirits such as the near-tigers, the lions and leopards, and the low-caste jackals. Baghaut can take the illusory form of lesser beasts and of humans that they have killed and consumed.

In the Marathi region, a west-central area of India, Vaghyas, or tiger-kin, who are consecrated as musicians, storytellers, and ritual dancers after their birth. Vaghyas (‘spotted ones’) are shapeshifting magicians who take the forms of tigers. Vaghyas are tied to Siva, Kali (or Sakti), and the regal hunting and horse god Khandoba, a form of Siva (see here). Vaghyas are traditionally storytellers (if male) and temple dancers (Marali or Devadasi) (if female). Kali rides a tiger into battle, and Siva himself is called Father Tiger. Siva’s dog is named Vyagha, ‘tiger;’ (i.e., Siva, as a god, has a tiger as his pet) this ‘dog’ is the ancestor of the Vaghya tribe.

Vaghyas or Vaggayas practice ecstatic dancing, including self-cutting, and frenzied carnivorous ritual meals, though they are vegetarians outside of ceremonial occasions.

The most famous Baghaut is Bir Kuar (see here), a lesser god of tigers, cattle, and fertility. He is associated with Krishna and depicted as a cowherd (at least in human guise). Generic tiger gods like Vaghya (who shares his name with the tiger-shamans above) are also cattle-protectors.

Baghisvar, the tiger-lord among the Gonds, appears to be a spirit that can induce a psychological transformation into a tiger.

Thus, curiously, if we were to depict a quasi-Indian Weretiger, the Bard would be as appropriate as the Ranger or Druid as a standard class.

Sources
“Encyclopædia of religion and ethics, Volume 2” (edited by James Hastings, John Alexander Selbie, Louis Herbert Gray)
“Encyclopaedic profile of Indian tribes” (Sachchidananda, R. R. Prasad)
“Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency, Volume XX: Sholapur.” (James M. Campbell, ed.)
“The cult of Draupadi.” (Alf Hiltebeitel)
“The popular religion and folk-lore of northern India, Volume 1.” (William Crooke)
“The tribes and castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, Volume 2.” (William Crooke)
“Thus flows the Ganges.” (Sudhir Kumar Karan)

*The similarity between the Sanskrit name for tiger and the popular pill was deliberate on the part of the manufacturer, and makes sense given the trade in tiger parts for impotent men.


I am not sure it was mentiones but Frank Herbert has some great stuff for Eastern ideas, but more Qadiran, than Vudran. :) The Kalashtar and other Psionic stuff from Eberron fit well, very well in Vudra. The light Lawful Neutral, and the fists of Zuoken work well to, Zuoken being Lawful Neutral I think, or Neutral :) Monks, Psions, and Psiwarriors dedicated to the Light or to Zuoken work rather well.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
WOW! This is PHENOMENALLY helpful! I'll make sure Mark knows about this thread while he's elbows deep in "Cult of the Ebon Destroyers." At the same time, while it's still going to be quite some time before we start revealing tons of details about mainland Vudra, expect a bit more about it in World Guide: The Inner Sea.

You'll make sure who the what, Wes?


Shizvestus wrote:
I am not sure it was mentiones but Frank Herbert has some great stuff for Eastern ideas, but more Qadiran, than Vudran. :) The Kalashtar and other Psionic stuff from Eberron fit well, very well in Vudra. The light Lawful Neutral, and the fists of Zuoken work well to, Zuoken being Lawful Neutral I think, or Neutral :) Monks, Psions, and Psiwarriors dedicated to the Light or to Zuoken work rather well.

The Kalashtar are obviously from a quasi-India/Tibet in Eberron. They might be used as is for the Vidyadhari, if you, choose, as I do, to interpret them as a psionic race (though I'd prefer for any psionic races of Golarion to be distinctive in my campaign). Their reincarnation flavor (if I'm remembering correctly-- my Eberron stuff is in storage) might be pretty usable as well.

I had an old Kalashtar Mindblade character statted up for a campaign that didn't take off that I could revise for Pathfinder, and probably would use in Vudra, at least as an NPC.


This is really good stuff, especially the list of the Pathfinder Vudra sources. This thread would have greatly speeded up my research on Cult of the Ebon Destroyers. India really has such a diverse, interesting culture that it is hard to condense it.

One little hidden canon titbit I found:
The Dwarves of Dongun Hold have a lucrative trade in crystals to Vudra. PFCS p. 59


One wrote:

This is really good stuff, especially the list of the Pathfinder Vudra sources. This thread would have greatly speeded up my research on Cult of the Ebon Destroyers. India really has such a diverse, interesting culture that it is hard to condense it.

One little hidden canon titbit I found:
The Dwarves of Dongun Hold have a lucrative trade in crystals to Vudra. PFCS p. 59

I am very much looking forward to Cult of the Ebon Destroyers. I'm also happy it won... considering my interests.

Contributor

Mark Moreland wrote:
You'll make sure who the what, Wes?

Hey. You found it. Should I start doubting your web-fu? :P

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Jeff de luna wrote:
I am very much looking forward to Cult of the Ebon Destroyers. I'm also happy it won... considering my interests.

Expect a preview of the art from this adventure in the next few days. It. Is. SO. COOL!


Very interesting.


Sharoth wrote:
Very interesting.

This thread is a prime example of why the Paizo community is so cool... Jeff and Levis thank you for the wonderful inspiring work you have done.


Just a quick post of some images and architectural plans for Vudra:

Digital library of plans of historic sites in India:
Go to here.

Mohenjo-daro:
Go to here.
A reconstruction of the city is in Lost Civilizations by Austen Atkinson.

Aghra:
Go to here.

Some medieval forts of Pakistan:
Go to here.

(Edit: fixed links)

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Now Jeff (and company!), I do have a random thought in mind.

Specifically in the Pathfinder Chronicles setting it is stated that Vudra is so extremely different as to be considered "impossible" by the Inner Sea standards. By your reasoning, what does this mean?

Important points of discussion on this subject:

*Airships?
*Streamlined/Common magic (avoiding the steam-punk feeling)?
*Floating Cities?

Or is this simply a statement of the extravagance of Vudra?

Also, do you think that the story of the hero that founded Vudra is basically a retelling of the Ramayana? That's what I'm leaning towards at the moment.

Oh, and do you think that there is a powerful unifying religious text (comparable to the Vedas and such) that most Vudrani refer to? They hint at a series of works in the Vudrani entry of the Campaign Setting, but I'm curious what you think.


Um, this thread is amazing. You win the internet?
Keep up the amazing work Jeff and thanks for getting the conversation started Levis!


Levis wrote:

Now Jeff (and company!), I do have a random thought in mind.

Specifically in the Pathfinder Chronicles setting it is stated that Vudra is so extremely different as to be considered "impossible" by the Inner Sea standards. By your reasoning, what does this mean?

Important points of discussion on this subject:

*Airships?
*Streamlined/Common magic (avoiding the steam-punk feeling)?
*Floating Cities?

Or is this simply a statement of the extravagance of Vudra?

Also, do you think that the story of the hero that founded Vudra is basically a retelling of the Ramayana? That's what I'm leaning towards at the moment.

Oh, and do you think that there is a powerful unifying religious text (comparable to the Vedas and such) that most Vudrani refer to? They hint at a series of works in the Vudrani entry of the Campaign Setting, but I'm curious what you think.

"Impossible" to me reflects the island of Jalmeray (the Kingdom of the Impossible) on a wider scale. CS, p.854 suggests the nickname arose from visitors viewing the grander and larger scale of Jalmerayan architecture; it might also reflect the presence of Genies.

However, I think we should consider what Avistanis might consider impossible and go beyond it...
Floating cities are a part of Hindu mythology, at least in its modern interpretations. The Vimana is a flying chariot/UFO (see here. Two of the three cities of the Tripura, built by Asura (see here) are suspended in the middle air and the sky respectively. These might be related to the flying cities of the Shory.

Re Rama and Khiben-Sald. I tend to feel (albeit very tentatively) that this reflects a more historical gloss on an Indian emperor). There isn't any evidence that Chayya was evil; she might simply reflect the north-south rivalry in RW Indian history. Khiben-Sald's god-like status would probably be a little more ambiguous than Rama, who is a divine avatar and unswervingly LG. The other reason he is not = Rama is that the Rakshasa survive in Vudra more so than the Ramayana indicates for the real world. He is thus an amalgam of Rama, and perhaps Ashoka, the early Mughals, Vikramaditya, and others. I still think he was a foreign adventurer, not a Vudran, based on his name. It just seems Keleshite.

P.39 of the CS describes several sacred books, but none seems to be pre-eminent. The current consensus in modern Brahminic Hinduism seems to be more recent, and a lack of an orthodox "bible" makes for intra-religious conflict. And conflict means = adventures.


Notes on Gaming in Vudra
1. Cremation as a standard
Cremation as a part of Vudran religion means that incorporeal undead are going to be more common than corporeal (though perhaps a ‘Burned One’ template could be created, or an Ashen template).
Effect on tombs… well. If there are no bodies to bury, the classic dungeon staple of a trapped tomb is right out. However, not every Indian (and presumably, not every Vudran) culture practices cremation. Some practice sky burial…
2. Taverns, Food and Markets
Sura (rice wine fermented with honey) is the native liquor of India. Wine (madhu) was made from a very ancient period. Wheat, barley and hops based liquor was also consumed, mainly by the lower castes. Tharra are homemade spirits. Alcohol is also made from coconut, cashew, and palm sap.
Rice beer apparently attracts wild elephants, who will tear apart vats in villages to consume it.
Panagara (‘inn’) or Apana (‘shop’) were taverns and hotels. Intoxication and sale as to bring to intoxication was illegal under the Mauryas. Liquor was to be sold only in sealed bottles. An innkeeper could be held responsible for injuries or thefts perpetuated on their customers. Panagara were made pleasant by scents, incenses and flowers.
Food markets were situated at the city gates. Apana also sold goods. Haggling was the standard for negotiating a price.
3. Slavery
Only outsiders could traditionally be enslaved under Indian law, though by the medieval period this was often ignored. Slaves in India remained persons and could own property and did not transmit their condition. Some people driven to destitution would sell themselves into slavery. Under Muslim rule, sharia laws regarding slavery became standard, and slavery was more common, but the status was never as onerous as under Western societies. By the Mughal period, slavery was practiced actively by both the Turkic-Mongol elite and by high ranking Indian castes.
4. Jinn
Jinn are mentioned frequently in the CS, and associated with Vudra. Supposedly the Vudrans do not mistreat bound Jinn as much as the Keleshites. Jinn are actually a Middle Eastern concept, with the meaning ‘hidden’ and are not native to India. Indian Jinn became a commonplace of folklore following the Delhi Sultanate and are often described as aristocratic. The shed blood of Jinn, once it strikes the ground, is said to create more Jinn (the game consequences of this would be nightmarish, to say the least). Jinn are frequently conflated with Rakshasas.
Hazirat, or ‘Raising the Jinn’ is a method of divination using a boy whose hands are smeared with oil and lampblack, whom a faqir questions; the boy communes with the King of the Jinn. Mullahs, or Islamic scholars, are considered the first resort during Jinn possession cases.
I wonder if the association of Vudran aristocrats with the Jinn further brings to mind the Muslim dynasties such as the Mughals. The Jinn (and Divs) play a large role (with the Persian Peris, who are more Fey-like) in the Amir Hamza stories.
Jinn appear to be conflated with ghosts (Bhuta) in some contexts (Mukhia 2004); this makes sense since they are both believed to possess people (‘phagal’ are possessed individuals), cause disease, and exhibit poltergeist activity.
Temple (1977) describes a syncretic myth from Punjab where the genealogy of the Jinn is described: The Dev Marij [Marid] was created by G*d; from his rib was created his mate Marija; the son was Jinn, and from his rib was made Jinni. Izrael (Azrael, angel of Death) and Mahandev were their sons. Mahandev is Siva (Mahadeva) and his sons are Korchabari (the Magus, or worshipper of fire) and all the Hindu and pre-Islamic divinities.
5. Magic (further notes)
Bengal is the most magical part of northern India, according to Wadley (2004). The women there are the most potent sorcerers and can command Jinn (see 4, above).
Hakims are herbalists and fortune-tellers and resemble the Western witch, though they profess Islamic orthodoxy.
Faqir (Arabic = ‘poor’): Religious beggar, sorcerer. These are generally Sufis, practiced in exorcism, magical healing, and are of low caste.
Ojha (possibly Turkish Hodja, ‘priest’): Religious scholar; command ‘armies of Jinn.’ They are skilled healers, though by expelling bad jinn, not herbalism. Some are Hindus of the lower castes. This is usually a hereditary occupation.
Kabiraj (these are often considered the same as Yogis and Bediya): healers using knowledge of body and mental and physical powers to accomplish feats. They focus on diet, meditation, exercise, and natural medicines. Bediya combine this with singing and dancing; they are syncretists and worship Hindu gods and Allah. Bediya are often snake charmers and the women are considered potent shamanesses.
Astrology is considered central to medicine and fortune-telling in India.
In some parts of Bangladesh, the (good) dead are believed to visit the living in the form of dogs. (This is inconsistent with reincarnation, since these are ghost dogs, but this is a ‘low caste’ belief). Birds are often the bad dead.
All religious groups believe in the efficacy of amulets (tabiz).

Sources:
The Athenaeum May 21 1887, p.676
Crooke, William. An Introduction to the Popular Religion and Folklore of Northern India.
Karim, Anwarul. Shamanism in Bangladesh (http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications/afs/pdf/a691.pdf)
La Fontaine, Jean Sybil. The Devil’s Children
Mukhia, Harbans. The Mughals of India.
Naithani, Sadhana. In Quest of Indian Folklore
Temple, Richard C. Legends of the Panjab
Wadley, Susan Snow. Raja Nal and the Goddess.


With a finer toothed comb...

Addenda

CS:
p.84 The monasteries of Irori are perfectly symmetrical.
p.85 mention of ‘gold-draped eunuchs’

Edge of Anarchy:
p.87 Raktavarna (creature)

Escape from Old Korvosa:
p.33 The Vudran style of architecture: golden pillars, high windows that rise to tapered points, minarets, and domes, etc.*
p.43 Daughters of the Blinding Night, a cult and users of the third eye spell
p.44 Bound genies are common in Vudra, serving as servants, soldiers, or paramours. Most are Janni.
p.54 Diomazul, obscure serpent deity of Vudra, ‘of the eighty blades’
p.61 Gopa Citrasena defeated Purusav, a rakshasa, in Jayat-Von with the aid of a mongoose. (n.b.: Gopa = ‘cowherd’)
p.64 ‘vast, evil empires’ were built by Rakshasa lords
p.64 many people in Vudra dedicate themselves to a concept or philosophy rather than a diety.
p.83 ‘the three-headed serpent-god Vritra’ lives in Hell
p.85 (sidebar) Info and prices for domesticated elephants.

*This passage strongly suggests the Mughal analogue for Vudran elites


More maps:

18th century Goa

a detailed map of old Delhi or Shahjahanabad

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Jeff de luna wrote:
Just a quick post of some images and architectural plans for Vudra:

Okay, archnet.org wins the awesome game. I think we just found a new tool for art order reference, and I know what I'm doing for the rest of the day!

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Levis wrote:


Important points of discussion on this subject:

*Airships?
*Streamlined/Common magic (avoiding the steam-punk feeling)?
*Floating Cities?

Or is this simply a statement of the extravagance of Vudra?

Oh, and do you think that there is a powerful unifying religious text (comparable to the Vedas and such) that most Vudrani refer to? They hint at a series of works in the Vudrani entry of the Campaign Setting, but I'm curious what you think.

To be very brief:

Airships: Probably not.
Common Magic: Eeh, maybe, but probably different than everyone knows a few spells. There might be more magically manipulated landscapes or obviously magical structures created in ancient days, things that are obviously wondrous but have just been that way for so long that the people tend to take them for granted.
Floating Cities: Maybe. Though probably more likely floating on lakes and balanced on mountains than actually hovering in the sky.

And "impossible" doesn't need to mean magical. Extravagance is definitely a good way to think about it. But there's also some pretty wondrous structures and ideas in real world India that continue to blow visitors away. In the same way Avistan ups the ante on Western legendary, I suspect Vudra will do the same with Indian lore, but in ways that would feel appropriately exotic and outlandish to folks from Golarion's other lands.

As for religious texts, there's probably a few big important ones. One book unifying everything is probably too easy. Having a few tomes addressing varied topics of the region's philosophies might be more reasonable when there's so many factors in play. But who knows...

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Vudra has been getting my interest lately, largely because as described thus far it's very cool, and also because as far as real-world cultural analogs go, it's a giant hazy spot in my brain.

That said, I had something possibly maybe connected to Vudra in my most recent turnover to Sean this past week.

Dark Archive

Jeff de luna wrote:

Notes on Gaming in Vudra

1. Cremation as a standard
Cremation as a part of Vudran religion means that incorporeal undead are going to be more common than corporeal (though perhaps a ‘Burned One’ template could be created, or an Ashen template).

Ooh, a cloud of vengeful hot ashes, swirling around people that he/she blames for their death, attempting to burn and suffocate them, sounds pretty awesome.

Quote:
Effect on tombs… well. If there are no bodies to bury, the classic dungeon staple of a trapped tomb is right out. However, not every Indian (and presumably, not every Vudran) culture practices cremation. Some practice sky burial…

Another possible source of adventure ideas or critters. Vultures that have absorbed forbidden knowledge or wisdom from the 'sky buried' could become possessed with an urge to fulfill deeds unfinished by the deceased (and / or considered holy, for that reason). Alternately, someone who wants to interrogate the deceased might be required to capture one or more of the vultures that fed from the departed and 'absorbed their knowledge' to cast speak with dead on the bird.


Set wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:

Notes on Gaming in Vudra

1. Cremation as a standard
Cremation as a part of Vudran religion means that incorporeal undead are going to be more common than corporeal (though perhaps a ‘Burned One’ template could be created, or an Ashen template).

Ooh, a cloud of vengeful hot ashes, swirling around people that he/she blames for their death, attempting to burn and suffocate them, sounds pretty awesome.

Quote:
Effect on tombs… well. If there are no bodies to bury, the classic dungeon staple of a trapped tomb is right out. However, not every Indian (and presumably, not every Vudran) culture practices cremation. Some practice sky burial…

Another possible source of adventure ideas or critters. Vultures that have absorbed forbidden knowledge or wisdom from the 'sky buried' could become possessed with an urge to fulfill deeds unfinished by the deceased (and / or considered holy, for that reason). Alternately, someone who wants to interrogate the deceased might be required to capture one or more of the vultures that fed from the departed and 'absorbed their knowledge' to cast speak with dead on the bird.

'Course I forgot to mention that the second most common religion in India made some pretty fancy tombs.

I have been reading the lavishly illustrated "Taj Mahal" by Ebba Koch -- filled with secret rooms (to the tourist), charts and maps, and other fun...
Set, your idea for the Ashen is very cool (I mean hot).
:)


What does the church of Sarenrae do with their dead? Cremation seems likely, but maybe someone can find a canon reference.
Sarenrae seems likely as the largest foreign religion in Vudra. But this eliminates the Keleshite = Mughals and Taj Mahal analogues.
Perhaps the Din-i-Ilahi of Akbar the Great might be used as a sychretic model for a Khiben-Sald-worshipping sect.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Jeff de luna wrote:

What does the church of Sarenrae do with their dead? Cremation seems likely, but maybe someone can find a canon reference.

Sarenrae seems likely as the largest foreign religion in Vudra. But this eliminates the Keleshite = Mughals and Taj Mahal analogues.
Perhaps the Din-i-Ilahi of Akbar the Great might be used as a sychretic model for a Khiben-Sald-worshipping sect.

I'm almost positive they cremate, although mummification isn't a stretch too much either, considering the influence Osirion culture had on the church. It probably depends on the area.

I can't find the cannon sources dictating such, but I'm thinking it's either Gods and Magic or House of the Beast that states the clerics of Sarenrae cremate the dead.

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I also wouldn't be surprised if some version of Abadar was fairly powerful in port cities.

Contributor

Levis wrote:
I'm almost positive they cremate, although mummification isn't a stretch too much either, considering the influence Osirion culture had on the church. It probably depends on the area.

Cremation seems logical. Maybe even that method of burial where the body gets laid out on a mountain top for the birds to pick and fly off with... what is that called, I'm blanking. Though that seems a bit primal and esoteric for the modern church in civilized areas.


Wikipedia's Funeral article wrote:
Rarer forms of disposal of the dead include exposure to the elements and to scavenger animals. This includes various forms of excarnation, where the corpse is stripped of the flesh, leaving only the bones, which are then either buried or stored elsewhere, in ossuaries or tombs for example. This was done by some groups of Native Americans in protohistoric times. Ritual exposure of the dead (without preservation of the bones) is practiced by Zoroastrians in Bombay, where bodies are placed in "Towers of Silence", where vultures and other carrion eating birds then dispose of the corpses. In the present-day structures, the bones are collected in a central pit where (assisted by lime) they too eventually decompose. Exposure to scavenger birds (with preservation of some, but not all bones) is also practiced by some high-altitude Tibetan Buddhists, where practical considerations (the lack of firewood and a shallow active layer) seem to have led to the practice known as jhator or "giving alms to the birds."

I don't think there's a general term for this but excarnation would probably be your best bet. Neil Gaiman called it 'Air Burial' in Sandman.

Silver Crusade

Reptilian wrote:
Wikipedia's Funeral article wrote:
Rarer forms of disposal of the dead include exposure to the elements and to scavenger animals. This includes various forms of excarnation, where the corpse is stripped of the flesh, leaving only the bones, which are then either buried or stored elsewhere, in ossuaries or tombs for example. This was done by some groups of Native Americans in protohistoric times. Ritual exposure of the dead (without preservation of the bones) is practiced by Zoroastrians in Bombay, where bodies are placed in "Towers of Silence", where vultures and other carrion eating birds then dispose of the corpses. In the present-day structures, the bones are collected in a central pit where (assisted by lime) they too eventually decompose. Exposure to scavenger birds (with preservation of some, but not all bones) is also practiced by some high-altitude Tibetan Buddhists, where practical considerations (the lack of firewood and a shallow active layer) seem to have led to the practice known as jhator or "giving alms to the birds."
I don't think there's a general term for this but excarnation would probably be your best bet. Neil Gaiman called it 'Air Burial' in Sandman.

I've only known them as Sky Burials.

Lot of good/neutral orc tribes practice it in my Golarion. Those that don't do cremation at least.


I've been fiddling with my Superstar entry and finishing my Master's (Library Science) so I've been remiss in sharing Vudran goodies recently.

However, these articles were interesting:

Puli Kali

Fatehpur Sikri

Golkonda

Nalanda

Sarnath. I always wanted to link in HPL's "The Doom that came to Sarnath" to Vudra.


F. Wesley Schneider :) and friends :)

KARMA - is not a system of rewards and punishments or a look at where you will go and what you will become after you will die. I is a system of training and test to see if you pass.

Eg. the girl that goes out with the abusive guy. Breaks up, then falls for the same type of guy and says to her friends, "why do I always fall for guys like that?" She is not learning from her experiences, so she keeps getting tested, she fails and then she is put back into the same situations to learn from them. Once she learns from the experience she can move on to different experiences and not have to repeat the same ones again.

Reincarnation is a cycle of learning tied to Karma. You go through life as different things to learn the expereinces of these things. Once you achieve the spiritual level of the Human Being, it is very unlikly that you will digress to something other than human.

Now for people that havnt learned and are very bad. Like murderers and such.

Eg. Someone who abuses Women, probably wont come back as a woman and be abused as Karma isnt a reward and punishment system. But he may come back and be a man or woman who is drawn into abuse councelling or nursing to help those in trouble.

But those who are just not learning, they can come back again and again as the same person, even the same gender, and even look much the same... and commit the same crimes over and over until the cycle is finally broken by either they finally learn or a wiseone (Psion, Cleric etc) Interveans and forces them to get a clue ;) That is why Executions dont do any good, because 16 or so years later the cycle continues.

Eventually when we learn and grow enough we get past our earthly bodies and become extraplanar outsiders, Divas, Solars, Planetars etc. Yes I am using Gaming Terms to explaing here and there ;) as we move up in our etheric vibration and become closer to the divine and Nirvana :)

Cast is where we are stuck in social structure, Karma is where we are in the Learning Curve of existance, for we are the Universe made Manifest :)

Contributor

Mikaze wrote:
I've only known them as Sky Burials.

Yeeeeah! There we go. That's awesome and horrifying. In fact, there's probably a really creepy new undead in the last illo on that page.

But yeah: back to the heavens with you, honored dead, upon the wings of condors and crows!

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

This thread is really, really awesome and interesting. Kudos to everyone who has participated.

Part of my original inspiration for the "Impossible Kingdoms" element of Vudra came from a huge book I have called Forbidden Archeology, which is a catalog of archeological finds that call into question the accepted story of the rise of civilization. It's an interesting book in its own right, and frankly most of the "evidence" is along the lines of "this one medical journal in 1774 claimed that a Dr. Pentrouse of Nantes discovered the bones of a modern human in strata that otherwise contained remains from the Heliocene era. These remains, sadly, have been lost."

But anyway, it's a fascinating book filled with all kinds of idea-starters for RPG scenarios, treasure, and adventure, but what I found most interesting about it is that it was published by "The Bhaktivedanta Institute, a center dedicated to the advanced study of the nature and origin of life in the universe in light of ancient India's Vedic literature."

In this light, Forbidden Archeology is a work of pseudo-history intended to justify the ancient myths held true by the author, that mankind has lived on Earth for billions of years. You can get a sense of this guy's story here.

Mix Vedic "history" with the idea of thousands of gods and mix in a healthy dash of Theosophical Society "Ascended Master" teachings, a heaping spoonful of Yoga spiritualism, perhaps a touch of mythical kindgoms like that of Prester John, THEN add all of the "normal" Indian stuff like rakshasas and nagas and a lot of other stuff mentioned in this thread, and you've got the idea I had in my head when I added Vudra to the campaign setting.

This thread has about a million ideas that I hadn't even considered which we shall certainly consider when we develop this region for real, so thanks to all contributors (and keep the ideas coming!). I hope some of my crazy pseudohistorical mysticism references add something intriguing to the pot!


Shizvestus--

I don't mean to tread on anyone’s beliefs. I really appreciate your explanation, and hope you keep contributing. The karma, dharma, and caste explanations I have been working with have been more punitive and have more of a chance of regression to a non-human form because they are based on a couple of different approaches:

1. Indian mythology and folklore varies on this point and seems to have insisted on this more before the rise of the Bakhti beliefs. Ravana, a half-Rakshasa, was a Yaksha, a superior being in Samsara, in his previous life. The Upanishads claims that those of poor moral character will be reborn as a dog, a pig, or an outcaste. The Laws of Manu claim that a drunken Brahmin is reborn as a worm, and other miscreants are reborn as various other animals. They state that because animals are not capable of complex religious thought, their austerities (tapas) which assure their rise to a human form are generally accidental or trained by their keepers (the elephants which attend Keralan temples are pious in part because they are acculturated to be so). These examples emerge from the epic period and the Vedic period where much of Indian legend takes place.

2. Religions like Buddhism and Jainism tend to more critical of samsara and approach it as an unending punitive/reward cycle rather than a means of working through different experiences and gaining wisdom. A composite approach incorporating these South Asian religions will inevitably be colored by this. Irori’s parallels to this in Golarion and the focus on an ascendance of his worshippers through reincarnation and enlightenment tends to bring in this perspective.

One things this does make clear is that the “rules” of Vudra’s beliefs need to be eventually detailed. Golarion, however, has a multiplicity of gods without (so far) an ‘Overgod’ like in the three main branches of Hinduism. Lacking a moral index through this means that even if the laws of reincarnation are regular and predictable, different characters will adopt the worship of entities that reflect their personal moral code and interpret these laws accordingly; an evil god in Vudra might argue that somehow becoming an Asura or even a ghost in a future life or afterlife is a reward, not a punishment. It is also possible that karma works differently for different religions, and ones which posit a benevolent system of reincarnation and atonement might have more of what you are describing.

Eric—

My favorite Indian and Theosophic heterodox beliefs are the “Nine Unknown,” Agarttha, and Shambhala, plus Lemuria/Kumari Kandam.
The whole Prester John thing is really the medieval counterpart to these 19th-21st century beliefs. He’s closely related to the Alexander legend. The craziest version is Ogier the Dane’s adventures in India, though these were passed off as history only in what I suspect is a tongue in cheek way.
The Titurel sequel to Parzival has the Grail taken to India, where it becomes the property of Prester John. I wonder if some of the Jamshid (Yama) legends of Persia are related to Prester John, since he owns a prophetic chalice called the Jam e-Jamshid. Jamshid is related to the Yama myth in India, where he is king of the Dead.
Cremo’s beliefs are pretty standard in some circles in India; in Indian belief the world is unimaginably ancient, and so is humanity, which is a nice inversion of the 4,000 BCE trope in Christianity. This is the same tendency as that which maps the celestial and nether-worlds into the Solar System by taking the huge distances cited in various texts and identifies them with planets. That might be an interesting take for Vudra, since Vudra shares psionics with at least Castrovel.

The Exchange

Consider also that the indian mythos and culture is a meld and overlay of various Cultures and religions. Hinduism itself is not one religion but the melding of variant beliefs from places as far as the Balkans, to the nature worship practised by tribes in the indian peninsula. I urge anyone interested in India or running any such campaign to watch The Story of India documentary series by BBC. You will come up with hundreds of potential campaign threads-both indian and non indian.

For example, one would think that the Indian culture is very patriarcial. This is not true for the part of india that my family comes from. It follows a matriarchial lineiage when all property rights etc. were passed down through the women!s side of the family. Further, in the olden days, all the woman had to do was to leave the slippers of her parmour outside the door; he was no longer welcome and kicked out. Also, the culture was very similar to that of the shogunate with familial clans with their own armies. One of the oldest forms of martial arts, Kalari, is from this part of the world (including the awesome whip sword which skilled warriors wore as belts). There are also many variant myths and legends about various warriors, kings and local gods. When one also considers other local traditions such as the story telling dance form of Kathakalli, the snake boat races and yearly warrior gatherings, the campaign elements can quickly add up. By focusing on this microcosm, I have been able to design and run a pretty fun campaign.

kalari wiki article
kathakali wiki article


How about the Aghori canibal sorserors - they are an group from India.
Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Part 1, Part 1 By James Hastings
I found it by googling Indian corpse eaters... Saw it one a tv travel magazine once.


prashant panavalli wrote:

Consider also that the indian mythos and culture is a meld and overlay of various Cultures and religions. Hinduism itself is not one religion but the melding of variant beliefs from places as far as the Balkans, to the nature worship practised by tribes in the indian peninsula. I urge anyone interested in India or running any such campaign to watch The Story of India documentary series by BBC. You will come up with hundreds of potential campaign threads-both indian and non indian.

For example, one would think that the Indian culture is very patriarcial. This is not true for the part of india that my family comes from. It follows a matriarchial lineiage when all property rights etc. were passed down through the women!s side of the family. Further, in the olden days, all the woman had to do was to leave the slippers of her parmour outside the door; he was no longer welcome and kicked out. Also, the culture was very similar to that of the shogunate with familial clans with their own armies. One of the oldest forms of martial arts, Kalari, is from this part of the world (including the awesome whip sword which skilled warriors wore as belts). There are also many variant myths and legends about various warriors, kings and local gods. When one also considers other local traditions such as the story telling dance form of Kathakalli, the snake boat races and yearly warrior gatherings, the campaign elements can quickly add up. By focusing on this microcosm, I have been able to design and run a pretty fun campaign.

kalari wiki article
kathakali wiki article

It's great to hear from you, Prashant. I appreciate it.

You're of the Nair of Kerala, I think? This would be a great background for the Chayya character in the CS.
I've been toying with a character class/archetype concept based on various dance traditions, and kathakali was one...
There is also a matriarchal legend from north India, one I believe is based on Tibetan and Ladakh traditions of polyandry and matrilineal inheritence, called Strirajya. It appears in the Chinese Journey to the West as a stop between the Kunlun region and Kashmir; and in the European Alexander legend as a detour in India.
I vote for at least one matriarchy in Vudra!


No worries Mate, I wasnt aware there was so much variation in Indian Karma beliefs. Quite facinating really, thanks for the Update :)


I've got more coming, but I came across this location while doing some research. Pics here.
The ambiance is very "adventurous": deserts, a city of golden light, a huge castle, ruins...


The DK Eyewitness travel guides are kind of handy (I'm looking at the Delhi, Agra & Jaipur one). They have a lot of photos, cultural information, and perhaps most importantly, cutaways and maps of a lot of cultural sites.
As an inspiration they may be a lot more helpful than the dryer academic stuff I tend to use.


Set wrote:
Another possible source of adventure ideas or critters. Vultures that have absorbed forbidden knowledge or wisdom from the 'sky buried' could become possessed with an urge to fulfill deeds unfinished by the deceased (and / or considered holy, for that reason). Alternately, someone who wants to interrogate the deceased might be required to capture one or more of the vultures that fed from the departed and 'absorbed their knowledge' to cast speak with dead on the bird.

A GM in college used some Indian folklore that included this theme. The vultures so affected transformed into vaguely humanoid creatures that quested for this purpose. They were not able to actually DO anything, but were able to pass on hints, clues and the like, the best description would be a feathered Gollum without the treachery.


Something I (maybe) missed from Burnt Offerings (p.85):

Note: The pathfinderwiki assumes that Bhopan is off the coast of Vudra, but in fact the text states the island is off the "southern continent" in the "Far East."

Selmius Foster, a Pathfinder, was killed by dog-men on the isle of Bhopan, while his companion Adolphus eventually eloped with Princess Ganjay, the "Opal of Bhopan" and they made their way (along with the royal treasury) to Quantium where they established a Lodge.

Note 2: Dog-men were located in the Andaman and Nicobar islands in Arab accounts, Marco Polo, and John de Mandeville.


Dragons of Vudra

Ahi = the Persian Azi, ‘dragon’ or ‘egoistic.’ See The Final Wish, p.75, 78-9, 81-83. Azi are evil in Golarion (and Persian legend), but the Sanskrit cognate of Ahi does not necessarily mean an evil being.

Ahi Agni – Agni, god of fire, is sometimes described as a dragon. As Apam Napat, he is the son of the water (the fiery dawn on the surf) and possibly can be equated with Poseidon and Neptune. He is the enemy and slayer of Vr[i]tra/Azi Dahaka. Vrtra, interestingly, is also called Urana or Varuna, i.e., Uranus, the primeval undifferentiated sky and ocean.

Ahi Budhnya – good dragon of the deeps (ocean). Ahi Budhnya is also an epithet of Rudra and Siva. The Ahi Budhya is the invisible counterpart to Agni. Ahi Budhnya may also be a name for Vrtra in his beneficient aspect.

Ahi Ravana—‘Serpent/dragon Ravana’ ruler of the Patala (underworld). Not to be confused with the Rakhasa Ravana, who is a relative.

Ahzdaha is the Urdu and Hindu word for dragon, derived from Azi Dahaka (Zahhak). The Final Wish, pp.82-3, features the Zahhak. Vrtra, described as an Asura or god in Escape from Old Korvosa, is generally equated with Azi Dahaka in comparative religion; both are three-headed cosmic serpents which threaten the order of the universe. In Vrtra’s case he prevented rain, and thus dried up the earth. Vrtra was the father of ‘Ahi’ (dragon) by Danu, a river, rain and cow goddess. Other texts (the Rig Veda) equate Danu with Ahi. (Danu is the mother of the magically powerful and technologically advanced Danavas, and may be identical to the Indo-European Danu/Dana/Don, mother of the Aos Sidhe, who share a great number of similarities to the Danavas). The Rig Veda also uses ‘ahi’ as a type of creature as well as a proper name.

The stench of the dead Vrtra is a polluting smell and his flesh is inedible. (Rig Veda)

I may not be reaching too far in equating the Ahi dragon with the Monsoon.

Makara, or crocodiles, are sometimes described as dragons. Varuna (i.e., Vrtra?) and Ganga both ride Makaras, and Kama uses it as a symbol. The creature appears to be a mixture of crocodile, river dolphin, or a fish-elephant. Makara is the etymological origin of the ‘Mugger Crocodile’ of India. Ambulocetus, a prehistoric whale, resembles many depictions in Indian art. Monsters of the Mind (Green Ronin) featured a Makara dragon. Gajendra, a magical elephant (who was a human king in a previous life who fell afoul of a sage’s curse), was rescued from a Makara by Vishnu.

A standard Tantric Buddhist depiction of the Makara is having an elephant’s trunk, crocodile’s jaws, the ears and teeth of a boar, the eyes of a monkey, the body of a fish, and the tail of a peacock. (Beer, Robert, Handbook of Tibetan Buddhist Symbols, p.77) Chinese depictions show a Lung dragon with a peacock’s tail rather than a serpentine one.

The word Naga was interpreted in China as meaning dragon (Lung) when Chinese monks translated Buddhist texts but the Chinese dragon is significantly different, so the equation is misleading.

Pliny claims the largest dragons in the world exist in India, where they are the mortal enemy of the elephant. This appears to be a reflection of the Makara (crocodile) legend. See here.

Peridexion Tree (see here) According to European bestiaries, this is an Indian tree that casts a shadow that dragons are afraid of, but doves are not.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Jeff de luna wrote:

Something I (maybe) missed from Burnt Offerings (p.85):

Note: The pathfinderwiki assumes that Bhopan is off the coast of Vudra, but in fact the text states the island is off the "southern continent" in the "Far East."

Selmius Foster, a Pathfinder, was killed by dog-men on the isle of Bhopan, while his companion Adolphus eventually eloped with Princess Ganjay, the "Opal of Bhopan" and they made their way (along with the royal treasury) to Quantium where they established a Lodge.

Note 2: Dog-men were located in the Andaman and Nicobar islands in Arab accounts, Marco Polo, and John de Mandeville.

This was specifically a sub-rosa reference to the sorts of imaginary lands on the known world occasionally "visited" and explained by early travelogue authors, specifically in the Travels of John Mandeville, which references a dog-headed race on an island in the far east.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Here's a link to prove that I'm not insane.

Or, rather, that I am.

Silver Crusade

Have there been any thoughts about having multiple gods as aspects of one of the known major deities?

Something like, the Dancing Flower, Gentle Lover, and Painter of Nirvana are each one of the Three Faces of Shelyn, for example?


Erik Mona wrote:

Here's a link to prove that I'm not insane.

Or, rather, that I am.

Yep. Own the book (Saurez, Early Mapping of Southeast Asia)-- I highly recommend it for anyone who enjoys old maps and legends. SE Asia and India was the grab-box of weird creatures for most of medieval Europe's imagination.

(I'm pretty crazy myself.) Also see, "Myths of the Dog-man" by David Gordon-White. Cynocephali show up in my homebrews a fair amount. St. Christopher was one (so they say).

Barking mad, they say.

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