Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Is it just me, or do most parties insist on killing every single solitary creature, down to the last CR 1/2 monster, in combat?
I don't award xp solely for killing things (I give partial to full xp if the foe is driven off but will come back, and full xp if the foe will never return), so I don't think the incentives are wrong.
From a player perspective, I understand the logic - even a weak and pitiful fleeing minion can alert other creatures to the party and make their lives miserable.
But, my god, it is the most boring, game grinding to a halt element in our combats and I don't know what to do to make it stop. I suppose I could always hold back some nasty critter and have it pounce on the lone persuing PC, but that doesn't really address my major problems (see below). I frequently just say "okay, fine, you chase it and kill it after a few rounds," which solves the problem in that instance, but isn't always the best solution. I could have the monsters never flee, but that strikes me as pretty stupid for most creatures.
1. It usually involves going off the map. This is really a logistical challenge. When the PCs (or the foe) ends up off the current board, I often need to rearrange tactiles, redraw the map, and generally spend an inordinate amount of time for a foe that only has a small handful of hp and will be taken out with a single shot.
2. It's at the end of combat, when combat (and frequently the session) is winding down. It cuts short the thrill of victory and replaces it with extra pointless grinding.
3. It rarely accomplishes anything. The fleeing foe was defeated, hunting it down and killing it doesn't do anything.
4. It leaves most players bored. There are usually only 1-2 PCs with the speed and proximity to chase a foe. Everyone else just sits around, waiting for more of the map to be drawn so that the poor creature can be put out of its misery.
The PCs spotted a single member of a boggard patrol in the water, about 50' from shore. They opened fire, and it fled, along with the rest of its companions. The druid wildshaped into a giant octopus to pursue, the summoner started spamming dolphins. Combat moved about 150' from the shore. A 1 hour battle ensued which managed to touch upon a ton of complicated rules elements (underwater combat, wildshaping damage, grappling, poison, concealment from an ink cloud). One player was involved (and, as an octopus, had 9 attacks to resolve each turn). The patrol that he went after consisted of a half dozen regular boggards and a ranger. The game came grinding to a halt for everyone else and generally sucked.
I don't lay this at the feet of my players - I think what they are doing in launching pursuit is probably a good strategy. I just want it to suck less, or have some faster way to resolve it, or a suggestion for a trap or monster that I can spring on the pursuing PC to guarantee a fast death that underlines the truism of "never split the party."
Okay, the last one is just frustration speaking, but that's probably where I will go next if I can't think of anything better.
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I don't like the way chases work under the existing combat rules, but I do feel that a chase could be an appropriate place for something similar to a skill challenge to catch the person in question. This doesn't always work in dungeon, but one of the coolest and most fun things I ever ran was a SAGA edition chase seen in Dawn of Defiance. The players seemed to love it as it involved multiple skills in order to accomplish.
I do hear some gripe about other "famous" chase scenes from the APs, but I honestly liked those too. My second group was split on it because only athletic characters could really give chase, but it's something that I've used as a reference for a while. The GMG, I think, has some rules on chases. That could be a way to resolve your issue by changing the nature of the encounter.
I hated splitting the party in chases too. Heck, I find it highly irritating when players open doors to new rooms when they haven't even finished what they're doing in the room they're in. That leads to TPKs and other crabby players.
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In most escape scenarios a map is not really necessary- it sounds like your adding time for yourself there. As you point out, only a couple of characters can usually give chase anyway, so just rely on good old description for the most part.
If the fleeing creatures have no real hope of escaping I usually just hand-waive that they are killed unles they are plot-centric.
Also they could take everyone prisoner and even make heal checks to stabilize humanoids...
First off ask yourself is this what the players enjoy doing? You are in essence running a game for their and your enjoyment. If your players enjoy having 10th level guys hunting down kobolds just to laugh when the crit and doing 50+ damage to a creature with only 4hp well then good for them.
If you have other players just sitting around, then split the party and do a round of combat and then a round or two for the other players.
As for fleeing creatures do not forget to triple/quad move them when they can. They do not have to be careful since they know the area, so PCs will have a hard time catching them after they get a certain distance.
If a PC gets far away (150+ feet) away from the party then think of wondering monsters. A kobold running for his life being chased by a PC makes a good bit of noise, the wyvern flying by will notice and investigate, possibly picking up a PC snack, who is all alone)
Also have the fleeing scatter not go in the same direction when possible, spread out. Multilple attacks on someone fleeing should NOT happen, PC catchs up maybe gets an attack, creature flees 1 AoO so the druid as an octopus would only get 2 attacks in a round.
Or cure them with nasty traps the fleeing flee through, or have them flee toward the BBEG or other big nasty creature. If a creature thinks they are about to die and they know creature X lives down a cave entrance it may come to them to run by or into creature X's area hoping that creature X will attack the PC instead of him.
Another options, have the creatures that are intelegent surrender. They drop their weapons put up their hands and say I give. If the PCs are lawful, or good there will be some major alignment problems coming for just killing them. monks, paladins and good priest will be in a pickle if the party start to hack through prisoners of war.
Go more broadly descriptive for a pursuit. Sounds like the map is what's killing you. Something like the rooftop chase from CoCT's Edge of Anarchy might be the answer with skill or endurance checks to advance faster or slower.
Just assume the players will chase creatures down in the future and plan accordingly. It seems half the battle was just knowing the rules if that contigency occured.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks for the feedback.
I tried doing chases as a skill challenge in 4e, but my players would not move to that level of abstraction no matter how hard I tried. "I have a speed of 40', he has a speed of 30'. Even with a headstart, I will catch him eventually."
The reason drawing out the map comes up is because I want to provide some terrain to make the chase/fight interesting.
Your party is doing that because they don't want alarms raised. Smart party. Good for them. No sarcasm. The only problem is it taking a while, which as someone else pointed out is entirely your fault.
I find it amazing that's its always the GM's fault.
Sebatian, first, if its a small cr creature that doesn't matter, just say that they catch it for time management sake and move on. If its in a dungeon or so, then that's understandable to draw things out. Now if its a big bad guy or such, then draw up escape plans if there's a chance that he will escape. Also, the game mastery guide has very good chase rules in it and I have used them multiple times. As long as u describe the landscape and the details then the players shouldn't (key word shouldn't) mind.
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The reason drawing out the map comes up is because I want to provide some terrain to make the chase/fight interesting.
That makes sense and yet it still drags the encounter out- which is your complaint is it not?
The chase rules are more appropiate for those moments when a party realise the noises they went to investigate were a pack of trolls in the forest (the party was level 2/3...) and decide to leg it. As a general rule I try never to have a combat and a chase with the same enemies in the same session.
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Thanks for the feedback.
I tried doing chases as a skill challenge in 4e, but my players would not move to that level of abstraction no matter how hard I tried. "I have a speed of 40', he has a speed of 30'. Even with a headstart, I will catch him eventually."
The reason drawing out the map comes up is because I want to provide some terrain to make the chase/fight interesting.
Well, I've got a house rule athletics skill (combines climb and swim) but also lets you try to outrun your opponents. You can use that for flat, on the ground style chases. You can gain a burst of speed by having a high modifier (effectively sprinting). People with a higher base speed gain a +2 bonus per 5ft extra speed they have to their check (alternatively, slower characters take a penalty). Roll opposed athletics checks, the winner closes by that many 5-ft increments/squares. When you are within 5-ft you can return to combat as normal and make attacks and regular combat maneuvers.
This is better for out of combat and out of dungeon.
Alternatively, you could use this function by having a new option for use with an athletic skill of your choice. Just like using ride to whip a horse to higher speeds, you could potentially push yourself in the same manner. This would cause a sacrifice of HP, which makes chasing much less desirable for PCs. Anything that costs them HP will deter them from wanting to give chase.
Of course, the abstraction will disappear if you apply some more detailed visuals. This kind of encounter works best if you've pre-planned them. Spur of the moment makes it kind of difficult, but not impossible.
The reason drawing out the map comes up is because I want to provide some terrain to make the chase/fight interesting.
I think you're working against yourself here. If you don't like it when the PCs go chasing after every last survivor, then make it as uninteresting for them as it is for you. Just, "Okay, your speed is 10 feet faster so you eventually catch them. While you were gone, your party members had the chance to loot the body of the BBEG you left behind and had first choice of what they wanted."
If you put so much effort into these chase-down scenes that the chasers kind of enjoy it -- "I leap over the obstacle, oh, hey, is that a random encounter?" -- they're going to keep doing it.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks for the feedback, it has been (with one obvious exception) excellent.
Just curious for those providing suggestions - is this a problem at your table? Do your players do this? I'm always interested in what other people do.
It may well be that I'm sending the wrong signals (e.g. drawing the map) to the players. Or, I'm having my bad guys surrender and run too much (I had felt that way for a while, and have made an effort to not have them run unless they are obviously defeated).
I suppose that there's also the distinction to be drawn between the fast character chasing after a fully loaded patrol (which was the instance that inspired the rant) and chasing after the lone survivor (which I generally prefer to handwaive away).
I do try to keep in mind what the players enjoy - which is why I've wanted to (but had great difficulty in) getting skiill challenges through. Offering little things like a burst of speed always raises cries about why they can't get a burst of speed in regular combat. Etc.
Thanks for the feedback.
I tried doing chases as a skill challenge in 4e, but my players would not move to that level of abstraction no matter how hard I tried. "I have a speed of 40', he has a speed of 30'. Even with a headstart, I will catch him eventually."
The reason drawing out the map comes up is because I want to provide some terrain to make the chase/fight interesting.
Three things pop into my mind.
1. Is this business of chasing down every enemy they lay eyes on the decision of the entire party, or of just one or two players? If a minority of players are forcing the issue to the detriment of everyone else's enjoyment of the game, then you need to have a conversation with those players. If, on the other hand, they all want to take that course of action, then you need to be prepared for it.
2. It sounds like your players spent a lot of juice chasing down a relatively minor threat when they went after the boggards. If they're wasting time and not being smart with their resources, I'd teach them a lesson. Once they're down some hit points and have exhausted daily use abilities and spells, hit 'em with something nasty that really puts them in danger because of the wad they've blown on a minor threat. Wounded dolphins in the water might attract a predator like a giant crocodile, shark, or even a black dragon. That wildshaped druid may have inadvertently attracted an octopus of the opposite sex who was following a pheromone trail and expecting to find a mate but now sees only tasty, fleshy humanoids to eat.
3. If all else fails, get creative on the fly. Put small obstacles in the way of PCs that they're going to have trouble anticipating as they give chase, and remember that creatures in their natural habitat will almost always have the upper hand. Boggards can probably navigate watery environments more easily than a human, for instance (I don't have their stats handy but I'd imagine they have bonuses to Swim or maybe even a Swim speed). Kobolds are small and agile; they may be able to get across rough terrain with ease by swinging on vines that won't support the weight of a heavier creature, or know where a burrowed tunnel is located that they can slip into without being followed.
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Thanks for the feedback, it has been (with one obvious exception) excellent.
Just curious for those providing suggestions - is this a problem at your table? Do your players do this? I'm always interested in what other people do.
It may well be that I'm sending the wrong signals (e.g. drawing the map) to the players. Or, I'm having my bad guys surrender and run too much (I had felt that way for a while, and have made an effort to not have them run unless they are obviously defeated).
I suppose that there's also the distinction to be drawn between the fast character chasing after a fully loaded patrol (which was the instance that inspired the rant) and chasing after the lone survivor (which I generally prefer to handwaive away).
I do try to keep in mind what the players enjoy - which is why I've wanted to (but had great difficulty in) getting skiill challenges through. Offering little things like a burst of speed always raises cries about why they can't get a burst of speed in regular combat. Etc.
Well, *I* would let them potentially have a burst of speed in combat. *puffs up in a defensive pose, sure that his suggestion is the exception*
That's what I like about using Athletics, but it isn't an easy fix in an existing campaign that has used other skills since the beginning.
What I often see in my campaigns are what turn into "running battles" where the party will enter new areas while still fighting in another room. The baddies will flee, looking for support. The PCs get dragged into a second fight with fresh opponents and it often turns into a very bloody affair. I've had TPKs like that, and other encounters drag out over the course of two sessions.
Chasing down a large patrol could be very complicated anyway. I'm not sure that there would be an easy way for them to get away completely, but if there were some mechanism that made some clearly get away... and others fall behind... (i'm sure you see where I'm going with this and rolls on the d20). :P
If the creature is no challenge for the PC, terrain hazards and additional encounters are the only true threat. If these hazards aren't credible, then summarize the chase and ensuing combat in a few dramatic sentences... "The craven creature's flight leads you across a mile of lonely moorland before you manage to corner it against a foul-smelling bog. The razor edge of your sword cuts the cowering beast down where it stood, a pitiful wail of despair its last cry."
If the terrain may be a hazard, a few skill rolls may be called for. "In its panicked flight, the gnoll recklessly scrambles down a bleak cliff face, nearly 60 feet from top to bottom. A DC 18 Climb check will be needed to keep up." Of course, the climbing gnoll may screw up its roll and plunge dramatically to its doom.
To speed things up, toss the battle map. Vivid descriptions will let your players visualize where they are in relation to each other, especially if you keep a running total of the chasing characters' distance from the party. A small file of photos and copies of old woodcuts can be handy, allowing you to show what sort of terrain the PCs encounter. "The beggar boy leads you through a crowded bazaar, similar to this one."
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, *I* would let them potentially have a burst of speed in combat. *puffs up in a defensive pose, sure that his suggestion is the exception*
No offense intended, my good puffin. I like the idea, and would gladly subscribe to your newsletter. My players, on the other hand, see things differently.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That wildshaped druid may have inadvertently attracted an octopus of the opposite sex who was following a pheromone trail and expecting to find a mate but now sees only tasty, fleshy humanoids to eat.
Genius. I wish I'd thought of that...
3. If all else fails, get creative on the fly. Put small obstacles in the way of PCs that they're going to have trouble anticipating as they give chase, and remember that creatures in their natural habitat will almost always have the upper hand. Boggards can probably navigate watery environments more easily than a human, for instance (I don't have their stats handy but I'd imagine they have bonuses to Swim or maybe even a Swim speed). Kobolds are small and...
This was the thinking that was leading me to draw out maps. I suppose I can probably do the same thing with verbal descriptions, which seems to be the consensus on the better way to handle the issue. The point is well taken.
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No offense intended, my good puffin. I like the idea, and would gladly subscribe to your newsletter. My players, on the other hand, see things differently.
Well, *I* would let them potentially have a burst of speed in combat. *puffs up in a defensive pose, sure that his suggestion is the exception*
Fair enough, I have had players that say they won't play with any rules modifications (that they were aware of, hehehe. It's funny because they won't go read the book.)
Terrain tiles might be another good investment for you then, or the flip mat map packs. Those would let you have an area available for a chase pretty quickly.
One possibility for the terrain is to have flip-mats at the ready for ad hoc sessions. In fact, since you can't predict the terrain, you should buy ALL of the flip mats. No worries about map drawing that way. I cannot for the life of me imagine why the Paizo guys haven't suggested this.
If the party splits, have the guys standing around engaged in a random encounter so they have something to do. Theoretically, you could be running as many simultaneous battles as you have party members! Fun for all! ;)
Or prep a canned scenario for the next encounter... a safe house for the bad guys to dash into, full of traps, doom, possible capture for ransom or even worse.
I sympathize... I hate this stuff and have not come up with a good way to deal.
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These rules have been invaluable for my Kingmaker game, as PCs want to chase down enemies or run away from them, or catch their mounts who sometimes get frightened in combat. Bookmark them, print them use them.
Essentially it boils down to a Movement Check and an Obstacle Check. Because Speed is treated like any other check (PCs gain a bonus based on their speed) it means that their cries of "But if I have a speed of 30 ft and they have a speed of 20 ft I'd catch them eventually" should be negated essentially: "You do have a higher bonus to your speed check, but the tricky little buggers have a higher Acrobatics skill and that 1 ft wide plank over a chasm calls for an Acrobatics check, lest you fall behind."
Anyway, these have helped me a lot for coming up with on the fly chase scenes when players want to pursue something.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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These rules have been invaluable for my Kingmaker game, as PCs want to chase down enemies or run away from them, or catch their mounts who sometimes get frightened in combat. Bookmark them, print them use them.
Essentially it boils down to a Movement Check and an Obstacle Check. Because Speed is treated like any other check (PCs gain a bonus based on their speed) it means that their cries of "But if I have a speed of 30 ft and they have a speed of 20 ft I'd catch them eventually" should be negated essentially: "You do have a higher bonus to your speed check, but the tricky little buggers have a higher Acrobatics skill and that 1 ft wide plank over a chasm calls for an Acrobatics check, lest you fall behind."
Anyway, these have helped me a lot for coming up with on the fly chase scenes when players want to pursue something.
Oooh! These look good. Very good. They make use of the relevant stats and incorporate obstacles. I really like. Thank you.
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Some other people already suggested it, but the cinematic chase rules in the GMG might do you some good. Chases become skill challenges and can be more vivid action scenes. The 40 speed vs 30 ft speed, does not mean you will eventually catch them with the chase rules, but it does give you a starting advantage. They will still almost always catch the guys they are chasing (because their skills are going to be so much better) but you don't need to draw the map. The difficultly and variety of terrain will be built into the skill checks of the cards.
The question is, what exactly does the OP want? Does he want to make the chase more exciting and interesting, or does he want to dissuade his players from giving chase when it's a meaningless tangent?
Chase rules are great, but I would only use them when I plan for the PCs to be in a chase. Otherwise, he's in the same spot he was in originally, save for having to draw a map. If the problem is that one or two characters are engaging in drawn-out chases while the rest of the players are sitting around as spectators (and eventually texters, TV-watchers or small-talk-makers), making the chase more involved works against group enjoyment.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think part of the problem here is that I glommed together a couple different problems, so let me see if I can separate them out a little:
1. The Sure Thing: I'd like a pretty simple mechanism to solve the 3 hp CR 1/2 guy running away. I always find handwaiving to be a little unsatisfying, but I'm not sure what else to do. I could just have the PC make attacks until they hit, but that's just adding dice rolls to a handwaive.
2. The Fleeing Threat: The chase rules seem like they hit this nail on the head.
3. The Bored Players Left Behind: This is probably where I should be focusing my thinking, as many of you have pointed out. The problem isn't necessarily that only one character is fighting, it's also that the other players aren't doing anything.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hi, Sebastian.
Why is it a bad idea for one or two PCs to greyhound off after the escaping NPC? Because it's dangerous.
Rather than hand-waving it away, or providing a simple, tedious encounter, I would provide an enemy with the resources and foresight to plan for the PCs doing just what they're wont to do.
And once they split off, have the pursuing PCs run smack-dab into Ambush #1, which might start with a pit trap. Meanwhile, the rest of the party might have to deal with Encounter #2, which the PCs could handle easily, if only they had their Druid (or Barbarian, or whatever) with them.
Two sessions later, introduce the players to the portcullis trap, which doesn't slow gelatinous cubes down at all. Again, it would have been nice to have the Rogue at hand.
Two sessions later, have the pursuers run right past a Mirror of Opposition, and watch the hijinx when the Bad Twins "return" to the party. (Or use doppelgangers, or changelings, or whatever.)
The point isn't to screw with the party. The point is to reinforce, at regular intervals, that it might be prudent to stick together and progress with caution. (Or learn some spells that hinder fleeing foes.)
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The chase rules I showed have incentive for practically any kind of PC to have a go (spellcaster's flight bonuses get taken into account, and strong characters can add their strength bonus to their movement check to represent a sprint).
But if things are bogging down, and some players aren't having fun the only real way to deal with things is talking to the players. Making an agreement:
"If I have monsters run away I'm signalling that the fight is over, and I'd like to move on. I'll agree not to have fleeing monsters bite you in the a** if you agree not to game the system. (Using fear effects to make monsters flee as if it's Save or Die).
I'll give you full experience for fleeing monsters as if they've been killed (because they've been defeated in battle. In return you agree not to go chasing down every single little monster that realises its in over its head.
Fair?"
Usually the best way to deal with an in game issue is to talk it out with your players. It might remove a little layer of suspension of disbelief (some monsters *would* go to get help etc), but in return it keeps the momentum of the game up, and means PCs who sit around waiting for their allies to finish things up can constantly remain engaged in the game.
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Our party tends to do this because our GM tends to turn any escaped foe into an NPC who inevitably returns to strike us when we're weakest; ie, the lone orc we let escape that was previously guarding the dungeon entrance is always waiting with 40 of his friends outside right after we're all tired and haggard from cutting down the BBEG. When that becomes the formula, it becomes our policy to take no prisoners (which would be kinda meta if new chars to our party weren't soon on board after revenge ambush #47).
Continuity and repercussions are great, but needn't always arise out of random encounters - mix it up a little, draw on noncombat interactions to spice things up. One of the best surprises we had in our Conan game was when some random villager we rescued from Dagon cultists, and subsequently became the bed bunny of the party rogue and bane of our Amazon's existence, evolved into a Deep One hybrid at camp one night while we were all slumbering (she'd been infested by the Dagonites).
If this isn't what you're doing, I apologize - all the advice I can offer is some kind of quick & dirty rules abstraction that takes into account the characters' abilities. Our chases tend to end with either Far Shot or Magic Missile. Throwing a bunch of arbitrary and seemingly punishment-oriented after-encounters is probably just going to be resented (the dragon that notices the chase from above, etc).
urr donge it wong.
and ever time urr donge it, a angle lose it's wings.
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As Sebastian and others have pointed out it is usually good tactics to ensure a fleeing enemy doesn’t escape – you don’t want to penalise your players too much for being smart. But as has already been touched on, it doesn’t always make good sense for one character to pursue on his / her own. You shouldn’t punish this every single time, but I don’t think it is out of line to, once in a while, have a wandering monster happen upon the chase, or have the pursued creature run into a large group of his buddies around the corner. This sort of thing may encourage the slower characters to join in the chase anyway, rather than sit around and wait – even if they don’t think they can catch the escaping creature, they can put themselves in a better position to help their companion if something goes wrong.
Personally I very rarely re-draw the map in the case of chasing down a fleeing enemy. Typically I handwave it in the PCs favour if eyeballing the situation suggests they will pretty easily catch and defeat the fleeing enemy, or use a few simple dice rolls to determine the result (usually a simplified version of the ‘movement check’ in Dudemeister’s link, or perception versus stealth if the enemy is likely to hide, or an attack roll or two if the pursuer is using missile fire) if I think the result is less certain or stacked in the fleeing creature’s favour.
Even if there is going to be a bit of a fight when/if the chaser catches his/her quarry, I’ll tend to run a descriptive combat rather than do a map unless I know it is going to end up being another big battle with multiple foes on one or both sides.
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Why is it a bad idea for one or two PCs to greyhound off after the escaping NPC? Because it's dangerous.
Rather than hand-waving it away, or providing a simple, tedious encounter, I would provide an enemy with the resources and foresight to plan for the PCs doing just what they're wont to do.
And once they split off, have the pursuing PCs run smack-dab into Ambush #1, which might start with a pit trap. Meanwhile, the rest of the party might have to deal with Encounter #2, which the PCs could handle easily, if only they had their Druid (or Barbarian, or whatever) with them.
I think the spilt party = more danger could work as a deterrent if they have a few bad experiences.
Hell, they can be pursuing the boggards through the swamp and drop into a tomb/barrow. The little bad guys get away, and now divided group of PCs have a potentially bigger problem.The point is for the PCs to not always chase with haste and run into situations blindly, and yes it's a dangerous world out there. Don't waste your time running after every fight if you don't have to.
The point isn't to screw with the party. The point is to reinforce, at regular intervals that it might be prudent to stick together and progress with caution. (Or learn some spells that hinder fleeing foes.)
This right here.
I think chase rules of any kind are great. Since uncharted and undetailed areas have all sorts of features you could literally roll random elements for the pursued and the pursuer to deal with it as an abstraction. If all goes well the faster party will beat or overtake the slower party, random factors (since 100% of the world is not mapped) can be a +/- to each step between parties - so even a slower group being chased can put problems/hazards/obstacles for their pursuers or manage terrain better than the pursuers. If he gap gets big enough the chase is over.
I use random road effects for Post-Apocalyptic games when battle goes to the roads with vehicles. The random chase rules/obstacles are a DMs friend and can make for some memorable chases.
Uh oh...Altai's summoning elementals again...;)
I just usually call it a done deal.
1. The Sure Thing: I'd like a pretty simple mechanism to solve the 3 hp CR 1/2 guy running away.
There's a very simple one, you know. Don't have him run away. He's an NPC, he does exactly what you tell him to.
Maybe he tries to run away but trips and falls. Maybe he makes a suicidal charge against the PC who killed his best friend. Maybe he swigs a potion of poison while commending his soul to his god. Maybe he notices everybody else is down, and in despair, collapses in sobs.
Thanks for the feedback, it has been (with one obvious exception) excellent.
Just curious for those providing suggestions - is this a problem at your table? Do your players do this? I'm always interested in what other people do.
It may well be that I'm sending the wrong signals (e.g. drawing the map) to the players. Or, I'm having my bad guys surrender and run too much (I had felt that way for a while, and have made an effort to not have them run unless they are obviously defeated).
I suppose that there's also the distinction to be drawn between the fast character chasing after a fully loaded patrol (which was the instance that inspired the rant) and chasing after the lone survivor (which I generally prefer to handwaive away).
I do try to keep in mind what the players enjoy - which is why I've wanted to (but had great difficulty in) getting skiill challenges through. Offering little things like a burst of speed always raises cries about why they can't get a burst of speed in regular combat. Etc.
My players capture or kill everyone they can. No reason to let the bad guys get back to HQ, and give the other baddies a report on party tactics and skill level.
Thanks for the love on the chase rules, those are mine.
Now, in terms of mopup, chases aren't always the best thing to do, but consider:
1. Unless it's in the middle of a big plain, the escapee should be getting out of direct line of sight for missile fire/spells within two rounds at the outside.
2. If only one person pursues - even if the creature poses no threat, if you're running from an enemy you are totally going to try to lead them to more of your own, or something else dangerous, or at least generally be squalling so much that a random encounter might get provoked. Making that a realistic danger means folks don't usually pursue past 2 rounds unless the party's all in on it or they are really, really motivated (which is fine).
3. If they know they're getting run down, they may turn and ready an action (if around a corner, potentially with surprise), try to hide if they break line of sight, etc. These turn into either "he got away" or "aha I got you" more quickly.
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Have you taken into account that the PCs would need perception checks to spot the fleeing creatures?
It's DC 0 to spot a creature. But if they get a running start, they could easily be 120' or more away. If you're in an underwater area or a forested area, you've got modifiers for unfavorable or terrible conditions, and I'm pretty sure that running full tilt after an enemy while avoiding obstacles counts as distracted. You're looking at a DC 20 to 25 perception check at least.
And of course, once the enemy is out of sight, they're likely to duck into a hiding spot, making it very hard for the PC to find them.
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I don't like the way chases work under the existing combat rules.....Check out the chase rules in the GMG. I like them and they work great.
Might not be what the OP needs though. Just a thought.
Hate to beat a dead horse, but:
The GMG, I think, has some rules on chases. That could be a way to resolve your issue by changing the nature of the encounter.
:P
Our party tends to do this because our GM tends to turn any escaped foe into an NPC who inevitably returns to strike us when we're weakest; ie, the lone orc we let escape that was previously guarding the dungeon entrance is always waiting with 40 of his friends outside right after we're all tired and haggard from cutting down the BBEG. When that becomes the formula, it becomes our policy to take no prisoners (which would be kinda meta if new chars to our party weren't soon on board after revenge ambush #47).
THIS
Is what Sebastian loves to do and a major reason why we let nothing run away!!!
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Thanks for the love on the chase rules, those are mine.
Now, in terms of mopup, chases aren't always the best thing to do, but consider:
1. Unless it's in the middle of a big plain, the escapee should be getting out of direct line of sight for missile fire/spells within two rounds at the outside.
2. If only one person pursues - even if the creature poses no threat, if you're running from an enemy you are totally going to try to lead them to more of your own, or something else dangerous, or at least generally be squalling so much that a random encounter might get provoked. Making that a realistic danger means folks don't usually pursue past 2 rounds unless the party's all in on it or they are really, really motivated (which is fine).
3. If they know they're getting run down, they may turn and ready an action (if around a corner, potentially with surprise), try to hide if they break line of sight, etc. These turn into either "he got away" or "aha I got you" more quickly.
No problem Ernest! They are a fine supplement to the game. I love them!
@ Studpuffin. Sorry for the repeat. I was just skimming after reading the original post and failed to notice that. Should have taken 10 on my Perception Roll I guess.
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Since you asked, my players do this all the time as well and it isn't even just against intelligent monsters with tribes they can rally for support. I've always got two or three guys who will even give chase to dumb, fleeing animals and monsters who are obviously alone and often of neutral alignment.
I understand the rationale for chasing after a goblin who might alert his tribe or relentlessly stalking the defeated baron who had your village burned to the ground, but that reason doesn't hold up when the monster is a giant spider or a crazy, homeless man who might have only attacked out of fear and just wants to escape from a bloodthirsty mob of heavily armed sociopaths.
I've handled it a few ways depending on the characters involved and the situation. For Good-aligned PCs, it's usually enough to point out their behavior isn't in keeping with their stated alignment. If they want to keep said alignment, they'll usually show mercy the next time a monster flees.
Neutral and Evil PCs and players who just don't give a crap are harder to deal with since they rationalize nearly everything do as serving the greater good or claim they "are just playing their character." For them, I'm willing to play out a chase to its conclusion, but I'm a big fan of cause and effect so I try to keep track of the repercussions the party's actions may have on the world around them. Maybe that spider was a potential ally's pet? That homeless man could have wound up the helpful mouse to the party's lion with the thorn in its paw but now he's dead and it might cost them down the road. When the chase is over, I usually turn to the players who were gracious enough to wait it out and say, "Here's what happened while your buddies were off chasing that goblin..." and then the bloodhounds get to sit out for awhile.
I don't know if any of this helps with your predicament but it's worked for my game. It doesn't really stop the chases from happening, but it seems to make them easier to tolerate.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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My players do the same thing, and it is often half an hour before I realise that everyone else is bored, simply because I'm too busy improvising!
Ideas (in the Boggart situation)
a) yell a lot while running,hoping to attract other boggards (who arrive from the direction of the rest of the party) or a wandering nasty.
b) remember he has a horn hanging from his belt. Maybe he takes an AoO while trying to blow it, in which case we're also finished.
c) give up running and make a desperate stand
d) dive at the ground and disappear down a tunnelslide (yes, I just moved the whole Boggart town three miles to the East, and those are weighted nets dropping behind the pursuers)
Generally option (d) - simply moving the next (scripted) encounter to wherever the chase has happened to lead - is always fun!
Check out the chase rules in the GMG. I like them and they work great.
Might not be what the OP needs though. Just a thought.
4th Dimension Games has chase rules I find better, if slightly more complex, in a PDF you can buy here, called 'Skill Encounters'. They do take a little advance prep, but they have a chase encounter you can use as a template. The idea is that for a chase, you have to accumulate so many successes before accumulating an equal number of failures, and the PCs can try a variety of skill rolls to overcome challenges in the encounter.
As far as players complaining that pursuit should automatically succeed since they move at 40 and the NPC moves at 30, that's an easy argument to swat away. Sure, you automatically succeed if you were chasing the NPC over an empty field on a clear day ... otherwise, it's not that simple.
For the d20pfsrd impaired here's a link to the GMG chase rules: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/chases
They have some things to recommend them but I like mine a little better, mainly in that in the GMG rules you are reliant on obstacles to at all reflect differing speeds between participants. So if someone with 30' move is getting chased by say a critter with 60' move, if there's no big obstacles the pursuer will never catch up with them!
Adamant had some chase rules in Tome of Secrets but they were way too complicated, many pages worth of special maneuvers and all that.