Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

APG classes vs core classes


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

1 to 50 of 200 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

I have not played with APG classes, but it is my impression from the ability descriptions, that they are more powerful, than the core classes.

Right or wrong?

Dark Archive

Wrong.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

That is to say. I've run APG classes and regular classes side by side since the APG beta, and I haven't seen any major discrepancies, especially since the Summoner fix. The new classes might have some unusual tactics, but familiarity will solve those problems more than anything (just like having a Wizard in a party that formerly only had Sorcerers).


carn wrote:

I have not played with APG classes, but it is my impression from the ability descriptions, that they are more powerful, than the core classes.

Right or wrong?

Any specific things leaping out at you?

Several of the APG classes seem weaker to me than core classes.

Personally, I'm eyeballing some of the AT's in the APG as possible problems more so than most of the APG classes.


Killer Shrike wrote:
carn wrote:

I have not played with APG classes, but it is my impression from the ability descriptions, that they are more powerful, than the core classes.

Right or wrong?

Any specific things leaping out at you?

The level 2 alchemist spell giving access to all level 1-3 spell on any spell list with target one or more creatures and 1 additional round of casting. Practically unlimited amount of stinking/death cloud, with cast speed up to 6 per round. Permanency for haste, though late, still good.

The level 2 summoner spell, which summons a creature of CR adequate strength for 1 min/lev, though with half hp. (eg. the spell, which allows to summon eidolon). The 8-12 spells per day, though effectively only once per combat, of highest grade the wizard has access to. Flexibly immunity for minor gold expense.

The witch has supernatural debuff vs all targets, without save vs all non-mind immune targets, supernatural sleep vs any level all at will.(though of course only once per day vs specific target, but most enemies are often only fought once per day).

But as i have no play experience with those classes, its hard to judge.
Also it depends a lot on GM style, if its one big encounter per day, those abilities are unimportant. If it is many medium encounters per day, they are a lot more useful.


carn wrote:
Killer Shrike wrote:
carn wrote:

I have not played with APG classes, but it is my impression from the ability descriptions, that they are more powerful, than the core classes.

Right or wrong?

Any specific things leaping out at you?

The level 2 alchemist spell giving access to all level 1-3 spell on any spell list with target one or more creatures and 1 additional round of casting. Practically unlimited amount of stinking/death cloud, with cast speed up to 6 per round. Permanency for haste, though late, still good.

The level 2 summoner spell, which summons a creature of CR adequate strength for 1 min/lev, though with half hp. (eg. the spell, which allows to summon eidolon). The 8-12 spells per day, though effectively only once per combat, of highest grade the wizard has access to. Flexibly immunity for minor gold expense.

The witch has supernatural debuff vs all targets, without save vs all non-mind immune targets, supernatural sleep vs any level all at will.(though of course only once per day vs specific target, but most enemies are often only fought once per day).

But as i have no play experience with those classes, its hard to judge.
Also it depends a lot on GM style, if its one big encounter per day, those abilities are unimportant. If it is many medium encounters per day, they are a lot more useful.

You can't judge a class based on one ability.


IkeDoe wrote:

You can't judge a class based on one ability.

I was asked for things leaping out at me.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
carn wrote:


The level 2 alchemist spell giving access to all level 1-3 spell on any spell list with target one or more creatures and 1 additional round of casting. Practically unlimited amount of stinking/death cloud, with cast speed up to 6 per round. Permanency for haste, though late, still good.

The level 2 summoner spell, which summons a creature of CR adequate strength for 1 min/lev, though with half hp. (eg. the spell, which allows to summon eidolon). The 8-12 spells per day, though effectively only once per combat, of highest grade the wizard has access to. Flexibly immunity for minor gold expense.

I might be a bit dumb today, but which level 2 spells you have in mind ?

Dark Archive

Gorbacz wrote:
carn wrote:


The level 2 alchemist spell giving access to all level 1-3 spell on any spell list with target one or more creatures and 1 additional round of casting. Practically unlimited amount of stinking/death cloud, with cast speed up to 6 per round. Permanency for haste, though late, still good.

The level 2 summoner spell, which summons a creature of CR adequate strength for 1 min/lev, though with half hp. (eg. the spell, which allows to summon eidolon). The 8-12 spells per day, though effectively only once per combat, of highest grade the wizard has access to. Flexibly immunity for minor gold expense.

I might be a bit dumb today, but which level 2 spells you have in mind ?

Probably Alchemical Allocation.


Gorbacz wrote:
carn wrote:


The level 2 alchemist spell giving access to all level 1-3 spell on any spell list with target one or more creatures and 1 additional round of casting. Practically unlimited amount of stinking/death cloud, with cast speed up to 6 per round. Permanency for haste, though late, still good.

The level 2 summoner spell, which summons a creature of CR adequate strength for 1 min/lev, though with half hp. (eg. the spell, which allows to summon eidolon). The 8-12 spells per day, though effectively only once per combat, of highest grade the wizard has access to. Flexibly immunity for minor gold expense.

I might be a bit dumb today, but which level 2 spells you have in mind ?

Alchemical allocation.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alchemical-allocation

You have to spend money for a potion once, but of course you can just concentrate on the useful ones. Also you can use potions of other people that way, if you do not tell them beforehand, that you intend to drink it and spit it back into the bottle.


Wizard, cleric, druid.

No, the APG classes are not stronger.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Alchemical Allocation is very good, but it's far cry from broken or overpowered. In general, Alchemist is a very nice, balanced, fun class and the general consensus seems to just that. OK, the smoke bombs are a bit annoying.

Same for the summoner. The spells are OK. Eidolons can be a bit on the "too good to be true" side, but then again it's very easy to knock them out of the play by going after the summoner.


Gorbacz wrote:


Same for the summoner. The spells are OK. Eidolons can be a bit on the "too good to be true" side, but then again it's very easy to knock them out of the play by going after the summoner.

Saying that a particular class ability is not too powerful, because it can be countered by attacking the char and removing him that way from the fight is not a good argument, that the class ability is not overpowered, because that is true for any class.

And im not viewing it from overpowered, just from more powerful.

Musing about the level 2 summon eidolon spell, what does someone using a wand with that spell get?
I suspect nothing, because he has no eidolon.


I find the classes in the APG to be fairly balanced with core classes.
Sure, some of them can pull some nasty tricks, but that's true for many core classes too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
carn wrote:
IkeDoe wrote:

You can't judge a class based on one ability.

I was asked for things leaping out at me.

Considering that an alchemist might at any moment quaff a potion and turn into a raving homicidal maniac, that's an appropriate metaphor. :)

"Good Evening Mr. Hyde, You've done many terrible things. My majesty's government is offering amnesty in exchange for your services."


"There is no potion. It was the girl."

Dark Archive

Off-hand I'd say the Heavens Oracle is now the best class, having save-or-die 1st level spells (Color Spray + revelation) that stay "online". Summoners are probably the best melée, giving a superior pet and buffer in one. The witch has a Wizard-like spell-list (very powerful), intermixed with save-or-die debuffs and reusable debuffs on top of the full casting.

But I don't feel it's overwhelming, and most are actually weaker (Cavalier and Alchemist are borderline unplayable, all prestige classes suck).

And the class kits may be the best balanced, opening options I have seen.


Thalin wrote:
Off-hand I'd say the Heavens Oracle is now the best class, having save-or-die 1st level spells (Color Spray + revelation) that stay "online".

UNDEAD!

O-o If only I had Channel Energy...

*shakes fist*

Dark Archive

I can count on a fingerless hand the number of times I've wanted to actually channel energy vs undead. Seriously, they get a save and the damage is minimal; just save it for healing. If I really want I can cast cure spells vs the undead, but will probably focus on buffing the melée to deal with the problem :).


Thalin wrote:
I can count on a fingerless hand the number of times I've wanted to actually channel energy vs undead.

It's more effective than colour spray! :D

*shakes fist*


IkeDoe wrote:
carn wrote:
Killer Shrike wrote:
carn wrote:

I have not played with APG classes, but it is my impression from the ability descriptions, that they are more powerful, than the core classes.

Right or wrong?

Any specific things leaping out at you?

The level 2 alchemist spell giving access to all level 1-3 spell on any spell list with target one or more creatures and 1 additional round of casting. Practically unlimited amount of stinking/death cloud, with cast speed up to 6 per round. Permanency for haste, though late, still good.

The level 2 summoner spell, which summons a creature of CR adequate strength for 1 min/lev, though with half hp. (eg. the spell, which allows to summon eidolon). The 8-12 spells per day, though effectively only once per combat, of highest grade the wizard has access to. Flexibly immunity for minor gold expense.

The witch has supernatural debuff vs all targets, without save vs all non-mind immune targets, supernatural sleep vs any level all at will.(though of course only once per day vs specific target, but most enemies are often only fought once per day).

But as i have no play experience with those classes, its hard to judge.
Also it depends a lot on GM style, if its one big encounter per day, those abilities are unimportant. If it is many medium encounters per day, they are a lot more useful.

You can't judge a class based on one ability.

There are thread on all these classes. None of them has been proven to be overpowered. There are even suggestions to counter the abilities without nerfing the classes. I would suggest doing a search if they start giving you trouble in the game.


Thalin wrote:

Off-hand I'd say the Heavens Oracle is now the best class, having save-or-die 1st level spells (Color Spray + revelation) that stay "online". Summoners are probably the best melée, giving a superior pet and buffer in one. The witch has a Wizard-like spell-list (very powerful), intermixed with save-or-die debuffs and reusable debuffs on top of the full casting.

But I don't feel it's overwhelming, and most are actually weaker (Cavalier and Alchemist are borderline unplayable, all prestige classes suck).

And the class kits may be the best balanced, opening options I have seen.

That one ability is not good enough to make the oracle pass the top 3 core classes.


ProfessorCirno wrote:

Wizard, cleric, druid.

No, the APG classes are not stronger.

Sigh. *shakes head*


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Bofdm wrote:
"There is no potion. It was the girl."

+1 Internets to you, sir.

The scale between Overpowered and Unplayable can be adjusted by the DM. In other systems, I've had characters which were overpowered to the point of broken during the first or second little outing, but the DM came up with counters that balanced the character back down. These were not house mechanics that the DM had to add, but rather looking at the game and seeing what he could present to keep my character occupied so I couldn't do all of that overpowered stuff. He and I treat it as part of the game by trying to challenge and get around each other.

On the other hand, I'm currently playing a character that really kind of sucks, but we work together a bit to come up with things it can do to get around its shortcomings. He's not giving me special privileges, but instead we're both working within the game system to figure out how the character can better contribute to the group.

Liberty's Edge

Thalin wrote:

But I don't feel it's overwhelming, and most are actually weaker (Cavalier and Alchemist are borderline unplayable, all prestige classes suck).

And the class kits may be the best balanced, opening options I have seen.

I agree with you on the kits... I would go so far as to argue that they are the best innovation Paizo's thrown out there to date.

I think that's an overly harsh assessment of the Cavalier and Alchemist, however. You could certainly argue that they are weaker than other classes, as there is an obvious element of power disparity between various classes, but calling them borderline unplayable is a bit much. The Cavalier playing in the game I run wrecks face more than enough and everyone I know who has played an Alchemist has had no problem contributing meaningfully to party success. That does not say "borderline unplayable" to me.

The prestige classes were the biggest disappointment to be sure, but I think Holy Vindicator has some teeth to it at least.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No mention of the Inquisitor, now that's a tough class. I'm playing one now and I have to say it surprised me how capable this class is. It's like the Bard with Arcane bend to it but way more combat oriented. I'm playing an Inquisitor of Mask and I'm totally not optimized at all and kicking butt! Well doing so when fully buffed. The skills make the Inquisitor a blast to play in non combat situations. My stealth is good enough to keep up with the rogue, the rogue of course is better but not by much. The rogue appreciates this as if thing get bad he's got someone to flank with. I've never made use of Intimidate like I have with this character. It's a blast.


voska66 wrote:
No mention of the Inquisitor, now that's a tough class. I'm playing one now and I have to say it surprised me how capable this class is. It's like the Bard with Arcane bend to it but way more combat oriented. I'm playing an Inquisitor of Mask and I'm totally not optimized at all and kicking butt! Well doing so when fully buffed. The skills make the Inquisitor a blast to play in non combat situations. My stealth is good enough to keep up with the rogue, the rogue of course is better but not by much. The rogue appreciates this as if thing get bad he's got someone to flank with. I've never made use of Intimidate like I have with this character. It's a blast.

Yeah, Inquisitors have lots of layered bennies and are solid.


Where's the problem with the cavalier?

Dark Archive

I find Inquisitors... Interesting. Maybe on the power level of bards and pre-APG bards, probably a little lower. Solid take on the self-buff caster, with a few neat tricks.

On Cavaliers > they can get the riding feat line, but even in that live in a Pally's shadow. They should be SOOO much better, but they just fall flat generally.

Alchemists weren't even good BEFORE they got their bombs limited. At very high levels they can do decently massive damage, but until then they are just awful.

The Inquisitor is the low-end of playable. Oracles are slightly worse clerics, except splashing nature to a heavy-Cha class so you can dump Dex or the redic overpowered Heaven Oracle; and summoners are... too good. Even now, just amazing buffers (far better than bards) with a pet tank like nobody has ever seen. Summoners and Heaven Oracles are the two TRUE power creeps in the APG.


Okay, the pally can ride, the cavalier can do that as well.

Cavalier gets a fine mount, but the truse schtick is his ability to cooperate and coordinate IMHO, which he does decently. Unlike the pally, the cavalier can easily distribute bonuses and cause some noise.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
That one ability is not good enough to make the oracle pass the top 3 core classes.

I wasn't aware that there was some kind of competition and I have no idea on what goal posts you're setting. Obviously they won't be doing the same amount of healing/damage/ or have the same defenses. If you're judging them a solo basis than your goal posts aren't even on the same field that the game intended.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Tales Subscriber

I'm currently playing level 3 Inquisitor. And I have to admit I regularly see smoke pouring out of my GM's ears. Using judgement even once a day forf ast healing 2 per round and the ability to heal myself when thats not enough... yeah, he calls my little Inq overpowered all the time. I just sit there smile.


LazarX wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That one ability is not good enough to make the oracle pass the top 3 core classes.
I wasn't aware that there was some kind of competition and I have no idea on what goal posts you're setting.

THe ones set by the OP?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ProfessorCirno wrote:
LazarX wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That one ability is not good enough to make the oracle pass the top 3 core classes.
I wasn't aware that there was some kind of competition and I have no idea on what goal posts you're setting.
THe ones set by the OP?

The OP didn't set any goal posts. He asked for judgements of power but provided no scale of measurement.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've only looked at the witch relative to the wizard and only at low levels. My opinion is that the two seem balanced, with perhaps the wizard being more powerful. While the witch has hexes like sleep, evil eye and misfortune which are powerful, especially when combined with cackle, the witch gives up some significant offensive and defensive spells such as color spray, grease, invisibility, blink, mirror image and displacement, although some of these can come into play for the witch depending on the patron selected.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Karameikos wrote:
I've only looked at the witch relative to the wizard and only at low levels. My opinion is that the two seem balanced, with perhaps the wizard being more powerful. While the witch has hexes like sleep, evil eye and misfortune which are powerful, especially when combined with cackle, the witch gives up some significant offensive and defensive spells such as color spray, grease, invisibility, blink, mirror image and displacement, although some of these can come into play for the witch depending on the patron selected.

What you're overlooking is what the witch has that the wizard does not. The witch breaches the divide between arcane and divine magic. You see that many arcanists that can cast cure spells and raise the dead lately?

What the witch brings to the table is not power but flexibility in the choice of roles.


I have a second level barbarian/alchemist who rages with mutagen and enlarge person. I think it's not unplayable, I think it whoops ass.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Karameikos wrote:
I've only looked at the witch relative to the wizard and only at low levels. My opinion is that the two seem balanced, with perhaps the wizard being more powerful. While the witch has hexes like sleep, evil eye and misfortune which are powerful, especially when combined with cackle, the witch gives up some significant offensive and defensive spells such as color spray, grease, invisibility, blink, mirror image and displacement, although some of these can come into play for the witch depending on the patron selected.

What you're overlooking is what the witch has that the wizard does not. The witch breaches the divide between arcane and divine magic. You see that many arcanists that can cast cure spells and raise the dead lately?

What the witch brings to the table is not power but flexibility in the choice of roles.

Excellent point. In linking back to the OP question about a general power ranking, I think this flexibility puts the witch class even more in balance with the wizard.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bofdm wrote:
"There is no potion. It was the girl."

"Love is a sociopath." ;-)

Jeremy Puckett

PS: Nice to see you posting. =3

Liberty's Edge

Thalin wrote:

The Inquisitor is the low-end of playable. Oracles are slightly worse clerics, except splashing nature to a heavy-Cha class so you can dump Dex or the redic overpowered Heaven Oracle; and summoners are... too good. Even now, just amazing buffers (far better than bards) with a pet tank like nobody has ever seen. Summoners and Heaven Oracles are the two TRUE power creeps in the APG.

That's funny. The Inquisitor I'm currently running is easily one of the most "playable" characters I've ever used.


LazarX wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
That one ability is not good enough to make the oracle pass the top 3 core classes.
I wasn't aware that there was some kind of competition and I have no idea on what goal posts you're setting. Obviously they won't be doing the same amount of healing/damage/ or have the same defenses. If you're judging them a solo basis than your goal posts aren't even on the same field that the game intended.

Someone and I don't remember who compared the power of the wizard to the oracle, and list that ability as the reason why. I simply disagreed.

Edit:
Thalin wrote:

Off-hand I'd say the Heavens Oracle is now the best class, having save-or-die 1st level spells (Color Spray + revelation) that stay "online". Summoners are probably the best melée, giving a superior pet and buffer in one. The witch has a Wizard-like spell-list (very powerful), intermixed with save-or-die debuffs and reusable debuffs on top of the full casting.

Combine that with the OP's post:
I have not played with APG classes, but it is my impression from the ability descriptions, that they are more powerful, than the core classes.

Right or wrong?


The thing about the APG is that 5 out of the 6 base classes are casters, 2 of which are full casters. The nature of the game already skews the balance towards casters. In most situations, they are just plain better than non-casters.
If you use the 3.5 tier system, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, are still the only tier 1 classes. APG adds Witch, Oracle, Summoner are all tier 2, Inquisitor is still more versatile and overall effective than the other core classes. Alchemist is sort of the odd man out. The limited nature of his extracts keeping him out of the higher tiers.
So, yeah, Wizard is still king, but the 4 out of the 6 APG classes are just plain better than 7 of the 11 core classes.
On the other hand, the core classes had a shortage of overpowered casters, most of the classes were gimped non-casters. Now, it's a lot more even. 8 casters, 8 non-casters, and the Bard; the lynch pin of the whole mess, and, by far, the most balanced, and therefore awesome, class.


Quantum Steve wrote:

The thing about the APG is that 5 out of the 6 base classes are casters, 2 of which are full casters. The nature of the game already skews the balance towards casters. In most situations, they are just plain better than non-casters.

If you use the 3.5 tier system, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, are still the only tier 1 classes. APG adds Witch, Oracle, Summoner are all tier 2, Inquisitor is still more versatile and overall effective than the other core classes. Alchemist is sort of the odd man out. The limited nature of his extracts keeping him out of the higher tiers.
So, yeah, Wizard is still king, but the 4 out of the 6 APG classes are just plain better than 7 of the 11 core classes.
On the other hand, the core classes had a shortage of overpowered casters, most of the classes were gimped non-casters. Now, it's a lot more even. 8 casters, 8 non-casters, and the Bard; the lynch pin of the whole mess, and, by far, the most balanced, and therefore awesome, class.

Inquisitor and Alchemist are Tier 3 solid.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:


Inquisitor and Alchemist are Tier 3 solid.

If you assume level 20 than casters rule, because any version of D20 falls apart the more you get away from the midlevels. But if you cap your campaigns at 12, then the classes are much more balanced and the fighter is quick death to any caster within his reach. For campaigns that are in the midlevels and below the tier system is pretty much meaningless.


I agree with this:

LazarX wrote:


If you assume level 20 than casters rule, because any version of D20 falls apart the more you get away from the midlevels.

However, this:

LazarX wrote:


For campaigns that are in the midlevels and below the tier system is pretty much meaningless.

to some degree indicates you misunderstand the tier concept. I'll attempt to explain:

It's not just about which classes are strongest in combat, but also overall versatility and ability to shift gears as a situation calls for it.

A level 12 fighter, yes, is a much better match combatwise for a level 12 wizard than a level 20 fighter is for a level 20 wizard. However, even at level 12 it's true that that the breadth of what the wizard can do besides fight is insurmountably larger: although both are 2+Int skill point classes, the wizard has heavy incentives for a high Int and the fighter if anything has counter-incentives to it, so it's safe to say the wizard has many more skills. Both have whatever special abilities their magic items provide in terms of utility, but the wizard can also do a staggering variety of utility things.

When someone says the Wizard is a Tier 1 class and the Fighter is a Tier 4 class, they're not just talking about ability to down enemies in combat -- if anything, it's everything but that where the Wizard pulls far ahead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Dire Mongoose wrote:


A level 12 fighter, yes, is a much better match combatwise for a level 12 wizard than a level 20 fighter is for a level 20 wizard. However, even at level 12 it's true that that the breadth of what the wizard can do besides fight is insurmountably larger: although both are 2+Int skill point classes, the wizard has heavy incentives for a high Int and the fighter if anything has counter-incentives to it, so it's safe to say the wizard has many more skills. Both have whatever special abilities their magic items provide in terms of utility, but the wizard can also do a staggering variety of utility things.

When someone says the Wizard is a Tier 1 class and the Fighter is a Tier 4 class, they're not just talking about ability to down enemies in combat -- if anything, it's everything but that where the Wizard pulls far ahead.

If for no other reason than this...People should consider moving away from seems to be the standard Int 6-8 Fighter builds. Ride, Profession, Craft give fighters options to do things outside of pure combat. for relatively little skill point investment. And there are a lot of things that Wizards simply aren't suitable for if they are dumped in the physical and social stats.

And not everything has to come down to skill rolls. If you're looking to relate to a grog captain who mistrusts magic users, you send the fighter in to relate to him... diplomacy rolls be dammed.

Best examples I can offer to point this out are the Pathfinder Society modules an adventure paths where it really does come down to what the character is, does, and says, not just the spells and skill points they're carrying.


LazarX wrote:
Best examples I can offer to point this out are the Pathfinder Society modules an adventure paths where it really does come down to what the character is, does, and says, not just the spells and skill points they're carrying.

Generally, I think in a well-run game it has to come down to both.

If your Diplomacy roll means nothing, then there's no reason not to have a 7 Charisma -- and frankly, there's little enough reason to not have a 7 Charisma already.

All that being said, I don't think it's reasonably possible no matter how hard you try to make the fighter the non-combat-usefulness equivalent of a guy who can cast disguise self, charm person, invisibility, rope trick, fly, contact other plane, polymorph, knock, etc. etc. etc.


If you want fighters and non or semi casting classes in general to be competitive beyond level 7 or so, you as a GM and your world have to help by ensuring that there are 'endgame' options wherein a fighter has a significant edge vs other classes who have massively more out of combat capability (way beyond skills, look at the spells). Older editions had the 'become a local lord' and get into the rulership game built in or at least implicit, and fighters were the best class for ruling anything other than fanatical devotees of your own religion. NPC's in general, particularly npc's that aren't part of some elite, should have considerably better base attitudes towards them and they should be considerably more 'romantic figures' than the casters.


Nothing like a local ruler who is worried about magic being used to assasinate him, so he places a ban on magic in his kingdom. Fighter gets an interesting advantage, assuming the party wants to stay on good terms with the kingdom.

Versimiltude, dynamic worlds, and small bits of common sense. They do wonders for "equalizing" the classes, or rather "giving everyone a moment to shine", which is the real point.

Maybe its just my experience with a group that doesn't have a WIZARD (caps intentional), but in my Savage Tide game the party of two fighters, a ranger, and an alchemist, the alchemist is tearing things up in both melee and ranged (although the ranger finally got a decent bow, so should be a slight shift in ranged).

Alchemist ability to brew any potion of level 1-3 at double speed by 3rd level? Crazy useful. Provide effects not normally useable as potions in the form of extracts? Really nice. All it takes is keeping UMD high and grabbing some wands and the Alchemist is very capable, in my experience. Heck, our alchemist is both the wizard and the cleric of the group, and doing both well (admittedly, not as great as a REAL cleric or wizard, but definitely doing better than expected), and can still get into melee with mutagen and have fun.

I guess thats what it is for me. Alchemist may be Tier 3 in math, but at the table, he's Tier 1 for fun.


The Black Bard wrote:

Nothing like a local ruler who is worried about magic being used to assasinate him, so he places a ban on magic in his kingdom. Fighter gets an interesting advantage, assuming the party wants to stay on good terms with the kingdom.

Versimiltude, dynamic worlds, and small bits of common sense. They do wonders for "equalizing" the classes, or rather "giving everyone a moment to shine", which is the real point.

Maybe its just my experience with a group that doesn't have a WIZARD (caps intentional), but in my Savage Tide game the party of two fighters, a ranger, and an alchemist, the alchemist is tearing things up in both melee and ranged (although the ranger finally got a decent bow, so should be a slight shift in ranged).

Alchemist ability to brew any potion of level 1-3 at double speed by 3rd level? Crazy useful. Provide effects not normally useable as potions in the form of extracts? Really nice. All it takes is keeping UMD high and grabbing some wands and the Alchemist is very capable, in my experience. Heck, our alchemist is both the wizard and the cleric of the group, and doing both well (admittedly, not as great as a REAL cleric or wizard, but definitely doing better than expected), and can still get into melee with mutagen and have fun.

I guess thats what it is for me. Alchemist may be Tier 3 in math, but at the table, he's Tier 1 for fun.

I suppose there is nothing like a king that foolish. Especially when a disgruntled refuge from the non magic kingdom having honed his skills goes back and assassinates the king who banned magic. Unfortunately since there were no magical defenses it was super easy and no one could bring him back to life since there were no clerics.

Hopefully his heir realizes that making mortal enemies out of people who can bend the universe to their will is not such a good idea. Especially when this includes giving all the neighboring magic using kingdoms a super big advantage.

Also everything is tier 1 for fun depending on personal opinion so it is not like it really matters.

1 to 50 of 200 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / APG classes vs core classes All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.