Oracle vs. Cleric


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Apologies if this has been asked / answered before (a board search didn't find anything for me).

I'm about to start the Serpents Skull Adventure Path, and will be allowing the APG. There is interest in the new classes, but I've learned to tread carefully over the years when incorporating "kewl new stuff".

I'm basically comfortable with most of the new classes in the APG, though my instinct is that there are lurking balance issues in some of them in both directions.

However, I'm a little bit stymied on the Oracle. The overlap with Cleric seems high, and I'm not really 100% clear on the relative pros and cons between them. On the surface it looks like Wizard vs Sorcerer but not as clear cut.

Can anyone help educate me on the finer points of how the two compare? Knowledge based on actual in-play observations as well as high-level objective comparison are welcome.

Thanks!

Dark Archive

Oracles (especially Oracles of Heaven) are better support, clerics are better combat divines or dedicated healers.


The Oracle and Cleric are indeed very similar, and you can, as you suggest, draw comparisons along the parallels of the Wizard vs. Sorcerer situation.

But basically it boils down to the Oracle being a strong, but not inherently broken class. My take is that it differs from the Cleric in that it has greater capacity for specialization in role and tactics. You get to choose a few more powers, and you're forced to choose spells known, which means a greater opportunity for synergy. On the downside, if you don't choose features, spells, feats, etc that complement each other, you can wind up weaker than the norm.

In general, it's a fine choice - I say play one and see how you like it.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Personally I'm slightly underwhelmed overall by the oracle versus the cleric. I think I'd call them balanced against each other if the oracle got strong fort saves as well as strong will saves, like the cleric. I'm unclear on the logic that determined oracles wouldn't have strong fort saves but clerics would.

The oracle mysteries do get points for flavor though. Some of them look very interesting; wind, bones and heavens in particular.

DJF


I have seen 2 oracles played and ofcourse countless clerics though I've never played an Oracle.

What I have seen is pretty similar to the line between sorceror and wizard. Clerics are batman with a wide variety of spells for many occassions, even the 'battle clerics' I have seen played have utility spells preped most days. Oracles focus on one area associated with their mystery. Do they heal? Usually yes, but their spell choice usually falls in line with their mystery and thus presents a rather strict focus. The battle oracle I saw was pretty much loaded down with buffs spells to enhance their combat abilities. And the Bone oracle was pretty much a consumate necromancer.

So basically the difference I see is the oracle is better able to focus on one aspect of the many things the cleric can do, but the cleric can even when focusing maintain the variety of things (fight, heal, buff, debuff, utility casting). The oracle has to for the most part pick one as a focus and does far less of the others.


Killer Shrike wrote:

Apologies if this has been asked / answered before (a board search didn't find anything for me).

I'm about to start the Serpents Skull Adventure Path, and will be allowing the APG. There is interest in the new classes, but I've learned to tread carefully over the years when incorporating "kewl new stuff".

I'm basically comfortable with most of the new classes in the APG, though my instinct is that there are lurking balance issues in some of them in both directions.

However, I'm a little bit stymied on the Oracle. The overlap with Cleric seems high, and I'm not really 100% clear on the relative pros and cons between them. On the surface it looks like Wizard vs Sorcerer but not as clear cut.

Can anyone help educate me on the finer points of how the two compare? Knowledge based on actual in-play observations as well as high-level objective comparison are welcome.

Thanks!

It is similar to the sorc vs wizard scenario. The Oracle is more focused, but the cleric is more versatile. I have not made played an Oracle, but I did create one as an NPC. I would prefer a cleric because they have access to all of their spells, but I don't consider the oracles to be a bad choice.

PS:The fine points really depend on the mystery you choose, IMHO.

The Exchange

Let me start by saying that though the OP didn't mention it, I'm assuming he doesn't want to start a debate about whether or not the Cleric is balanced in the first place. I'm working under the assumption of examining the Oracle as it compares to the Cleric.

One of the key differences to me that separates them further than even the Wizard/Sorcerer divide is the simple fact that Clerics automatically get all spells known, for free, as soon as they gain the new level. Oracles, like Sorcerers, are capped with a very limited number of spells known.

Sure, Wizards COULD track down/purchase every spell on the list, but most don't bother. Clerics don't have to, and that's a major strength that Clerics have.

With Domains vs. Mystery and Oracle's Curse, again the Cleric gets more flexibility. Regarding spells, the Cleric can take a domain for the spells and a domain for the other powers (like the incredibly good Travel domain) or can take a combination of domains that give good bonus spells at any given level.

The Oracle's Revelations in general are better (IMO) than the Clerics domain abilities, but that helps make up for the limited spells known and for having fewer choices than the Cleric would have.

Personally I'd prefer to play a Cleric any day, but that's my individual play style. I think they are pretty comparable to one another. I wouldn't recommend a group having one of each but otherwise I see no reason to restrict the Oracle.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I currently am playing a life oracle.
He heals really well. For my purposes, it works better than a cleric as all oracles begin knowing all "cure" spells as spells known, so taht replaces the spontaneous cast of good clerics. Life oracles can channel as a cleric of equal level but -2 times per day. I've gotta 23 CHA, no worries there. The other spells I took are a mix of defense and utility, and the other mystery revalations are awesome for healers:
over healing results in temp hitpoints, cure spells dont provoke AoO, body of energy, add your level to cure spells instead of +5 or whatever...it rocks. As a healer, at least.


I think the big difference is versatility. Our group also has an oracle of life. He is a great healer but hwcan't change his spells to counter our opponents. In this case we are fighting evil clerics following a god of darkness. We have had pcs blinded and he can't cast daylight yet to deal with darkness and deeper darkness. Since were level 5 a cleric could don all of this.

Liberty's Edge

If you'd like to see gameplay of a Life oracle in the Serpent's Skull adventure path, look at this link right here. You can see my character sheet by clicking Gwenyth's portrait in that thread.

As the player of the Oracle, I can offer the following feedback:

1) I definitely do not feel overpowered at all. I have clearly made a few non-optimal skill/spell/action-in-combat choices (all in the name of role-playing), but I don't think "optimizing" my character would have had too dramatic an impact. If I had it to do over again, I'd definitely have taken Protection from Evil, and will do so at my next opportunity.

2) Playing the Tongues curse is really fun, at least in a play-by-post. I'm not sure how fun it would be in Pencil & Paper world. I really love the roleplaying angles that are built in to the oracle, the class is a LOT of fun to play.

3) I can't possibly see the Oracle being decisively "better than" a cleric in any campaign, at any time.

Happy gaming!


As it turns out, the player opted for an Inquisitor instead of either a Cleric or Oracle (ah, players and their infinite fickleness), but the info provided is good and I appreciate the input.

Dark Archive

Killer Shrike wrote:
As it turns out, the player opted for an Inquisitor instead of either a Cleric or Oracle (ah, players and their infinite fickleness), but the info provided is good and I appreciate the input.

Ha! Well, at least he's picked another really enjoyable class. I've taken my Inquisitor up to 14th level and he's been a blast. Make sure he doesn't sleep on Heroism when it becomes available. The bonus to hit, skills, and saves makes him like a miniature Paladin without all the pesky Code of Honor bits. A Rod of Lesser Extend will allow him to keep it going for every combat, all day, no problem.

EDIT: Is it too late for him to change his stats around a bit? I know this isn't the advice forum but I think he needs to really tone down the Wisdom in favor of Str. The Inquisitor is going to have crap DC's regardless of Wisdom because his spell levels are lower than a full caster. It has been my experience that the Inquisitor has more than enough buffs and utility spells to use without resorting to their paltry blasting or debuffing that someone else in the party could do more consistently.


As I am currently running an oracle of life, and have played clerics before, I'll just put one little tidbit in here. An oracle of life who takes Multiple "Extra Revelation" feats is the most fantastic heal-bot that you can build. No cleric can match the heal-bot capabilities of an Oracle of Life. That is all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
YuenglingDragon wrote:


Ha! Well, at least he's picked another really enjoyable class.

It's hard to find a class that doesn't have someone that enjoys it. It's all dependent on personal taste.


Kryzbyn wrote:
cure spells dont provoke AoO, body of energy,

Correction, any spell that cures hit point damage doesnt provoke attacks of opportunity. So Heal and Breath of Life are also free to cast.

Liberty's Edge

Beorn the Bear wrote:
As I am currently running an oracle of life, and have played clerics before, I'll just put one little tidbit in here. An oracle of life who takes Multiple "Extra Revelation" feats is the most fantastic heal-bot that you can build. No cleric can match the heal-bot capabilities of an Oracle of Life. That is all.

I'd argue that the Healing domain power (auto-empowered heals) makes Clerics better from the standpoint of pure hit points restored per spell metric. I'd concede it comes down to a matter of taste, but I feel the cleric has potential to be a superior all-around support character because of the flexibility of being able to easily trade out spells, better spell progression and the customization that Cleric domains present.


LordZod wrote:
Beorn the Bear wrote:
As I am currently running an oracle of life, and have played clerics before, I'll just put one little tidbit in here. An oracle of life who takes Multiple "Extra Revelation" feats is the most fantastic heal-bot that you can build. No cleric can match the heal-bot capabilities of an Oracle of Life. That is all.
I'd argue that the Healing domain power (auto-empowered heals) makes Clerics better from the standpoint of pure hit points restored per spell metric. I'd concede it comes down to a matter of taste, but I feel the cleric has potential to be a superior all-around support character because of the flexibility of being able to easily trade out spells, better spell progression and the customization that Cleric domains present.

I diasgree on the empower ability of the healing domain. IMO the oracle of life's healing power cannot be approached by the cleric once the oracle chooses this revelation:

Enhanced Cures (Su): Whenever you cast a cure spell, the maximum number of hit points healed is based on your oracle level, not the limit based on the spell. For example, an 11th-level oracle of life with this revelation may cast cure light wounds to heal 1d8+11 hit points instead of the normal 1d8+5 maximum.

This provides reliable high base hp healing which empower does not come close to.

I second your other statements, though :-)

Liberty's Edge

That's all well and good for ghetto CLW spells. But let's say we have two CL 12 characters, the Life Oracle and the Cleric with Healing domain. The Oracle's CMW will be 2D8 + 12. The Cleric's will be 1.5 * (2d8 + 10), which will be about 9.5 or 10 more HP on average with a E(d8) of 4.5. This is clearly significantly better than the measly bonus that Enhanced Cures bestows. The math only stacks more in favor of Healer's Blessing with CSW or CCW. Of course this all comes down to how one reads Healer's Blessing.

The description says nothing about it working "as empower spell", but rather references a 50% bonus to the "amount of damage healed" and that it does not stack with Empower Spell. So I would assume the static CL bonus gets multiplied as well.

Of course, this might not work with the Cleric/Oracle 6 spell "Heal" and obviously doesn't work with Channel Energy. Just the same, I think the math is clearly in favor of Healer's Blessing scaling far better than Enhanced Cures.

Energy Body is a gimmick that works once per round for less than a CLW would heal, so that's a trash ability IMO. Combat Healer, Life Link and the no AOO on cures are very nice. Personally I couldn't put up with losing Domain spells and slower spell progression on a support divine caster.


LordZod wrote:

That's all well and good for ghetto CLW spells. But let's say we have two CL 12 characters, the Life Oracle and the Cleric with Healing domain. The Oracle's CMW will be 2D8 + 12. The Cleric's will be 1.5 * (2d8 + 10), which will be about 9.5 or 10 more HP on average with a E(d8) of 4.5. This is clearly significantly better than the measly bonus that Enhanced Cures bestows. The math only stacks more in favor of Healer's Blessing with CSW or CCW. Of course this all comes down to how one reads Healer's Blessing.

The description says nothing about it working "as empower spell", but rather references a 50% bonus to the "amount of damage healed" and that it does not stack with Empower Spell. So I would assume the static CL bonus gets multiplied as well.

Of course, this might not work with the Cleric/Oracle 6 spell "Heal" and obviously doesn't work with Channel Energy. Just the same, I think the math is clearly in favor of Healer's Blessing scaling far better than Enhanced Cures.

Energy Body is a gimmick that works once per round for less than a CLW would heal, so that's a trash ability IMO. Combat Healer, Life Link and the no AOO on cures are very nice. Personally I couldn't put up with losing Domain spells and slower spell progression on a support divine caster.

Many good points there, just two from my side:

1. I interpret the healer's blessing to only empower the variable parts of the spell: "At 6th level, all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered, increasing the amount of damage healed by half (+50%)". The "+50%" is only explanatory IMO.

2. Being able to use a 1st level slot to cure 1d8+12, which averages to 16 hp for each first slot usage - of which you have many more than the cleric in the first place - is quite powerful and outpaces the healing power of the cleric compared to the resources (spell slots) spent.

Liberty's Edge

Well it says the "amount of damage healed" is increased by half. The static bonus to the spell is by definition also part of the damage healed, so wouldn't it also be increased by half? It doesn't say "as empower spell".

Unless this got an errata to make it consistent with Empower Spell, I don't think it works the same way because amount of damage healed != what was rolled on the dice in any case. So it would be a very peculiar wording if that wasn't Paizo's intent.


LordZod wrote:

Well it says the "amount of damage healed" is increased by half. The static bonus to the spell is by definition also part of the damage healed, so wouldn't it also be increased by half? It doesn't say "as empower spell".

Unless this got an errata to make it consistent with Empower Spell, I don't think it works the same way because amount of damage healed != what was rolled on the dice in any case. So it would be a very peculiar wording if that wasn't Paizo's intent.

Hm, I think the "all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered" pretty clearly refers to the empower spell feat to me, so I will rule it that way. However, maybe they could clarify that in the future, e.g. change it to "all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered by the empower spell feat"... The +50% can certainly be confusing here.


LordZod wrote:


The description says nothing about it working "as empower spell", but rather references a 50% bonus to the "amount of damage healed" and that it does not stack with Empower Spell. So I would assume the static CL bonus gets multiplied as well.

And there are those of us that go with empower spells seeing the 'variable' as being the entire '1d8+5' rather than the '1d8'.

Sure the +5 is always there, but so it at least a 1 on the 1d8.. the range 6-13 is the variable range that is empowered.

It clearly was this way in 3e/3.5 as the example in the PhB illustrated. This example (and all the other examples) weren't in the SRD which caused the confusion on what 'variable' meant.

This, like many things in D&D, boiled down to where you played as what was considered 'correct'. This and others did have regional variation associated with them (which I was able to witness while traveling to play LG).

I believe Jason's neck of the woods believed that variable meant dice, which in all honesty is not the meaning of the word. Empowering cure spells is decidedly weak to do (unless you are getting it for free) so I don't see a problem there. And finally had he wanted to change it to dice, he certainly had the wherewithal to do so but did not.

-James


james maissen wrote:
LordZod wrote:


The description says nothing about it working "as empower spell", but rather references a 50% bonus to the "amount of damage healed" and that it does not stack with Empower Spell. So I would assume the static CL bonus gets multiplied as well.

And there are those of us that go with empower spells seeing the 'variable' as being the entire '1d8+5' rather than the '1d8'.

Sure the +5 is always there, but so it at least a 1 on the 1d8.. the range 6-13 is the variable range that is empowered.

It clearly was this way in 3e/3.5 as the example in the PhB illustrated. This example (and all the other examples) weren't in the SRD which caused the confusion on what 'variable' meant.

This, like many things in D&D, boiled down to where you played as what was considered 'correct'. This and others did have regional variation associated with them (which I was able to witness while traveling to play LG).

I believe Jason's neck of the woods believed that variable meant dice, which in all honesty is not the meaning of the word. Empowering cure spells is decidedly weak to do (unless you are getting it for free) so I don't see a problem there. And finally had he wanted to change it to dice, he certainly had the wherewithal to do so but did not.

-James

Regarding the variable part question fo empowering: In case you do not know it, there's a post by Jason Buhlman stating that only the variable part is increased. So I guess that's the way it is handled in Pathfinder :-)


Just thought I would chime in with my 2c re: Oracles vs. Clerics in power level...
My own personal experience is that although it roughly comparable to wizard vs. sorcerer, the Oracle of Heavens specifically can be OP... if it is built in certain ways (i.e. focusing on Color Spray)
I found that at low to mid levels the heavens oracle trivialized a LOT of encounters.


Sangalor wrote:
james maissen wrote:


I believe Jason's neck of the woods believed that variable meant dice, which in all honesty is not the meaning of the word. Empowering cure spells is decidedly weak to do (unless you are getting it for free) so I don't see a problem there. And finally had he wanted to change it to dice, he certainly had the wherewithal to do so but did not.

-James

Regarding the variable part question fo empowering: In case you do not know it, there's a post by Jason Buhlman stating that only the variable part is increased. So I guess that's the way it is handled in Pathfinder :-)

That would be the 'Jason' I referenced in my post.

And I'm sure that's the way he believes that it reads, as wrong as he might be about it.

He certainly didn't make any moves to change the wording in the core rules regarding it, so it seems credible to think that he believes that was the way it always was.

Which is in error, as anyone picking up a 3e/3.5e PhB can ascertain.

Again the 'variable part' is the entire 1d8+5, rather than the die. If you wish to try to claim that the +5 is always there, so is at least a 1 on the d8... The variable is actually 6-13 here.

But now I'm going to start repeating myself, so just go back and read my prior post.

-James

Silver Crusade

The part you realy missed on a level 12 Cleric Vs. Oracle.
Heal spell. Cleric 1/day Oracle 3/day (Cleric 120HP/day Oracle 360HP/day). So from one spell the cleric is 240HP/day behind what the oracle can heal, but hase to have one more level to get it. This never realy gose away, becous the cleric max base is 4/day and oracle is 6/day. The cleric can channel positive energy. This dose not make up for the lack of spells per day.

Experanced players know what wands to carry. So playing a character with a limited spell list is not a problem. For new players that don't know what spells they will need. Is the only time I have see this be a problem.

Personly I like Wizards better then Sorcerers, But like Oracles over Clerics.

Liberty's Edge

One problem with this is that Oracles do not get the Heal spell learned for free (as they only get "cure" spells learned for free). Level 12 Clerics actually get 2+1 spell slots for level 6 spells and could theoretically prepare Heal in all three if they so desired if they were Healing domain. Or you know, use a lower level spell slot to do the same thing. With healer's blessing on CCW you'd be essentially healing for 6d8 + 12 or 6d8 + 18 (without actually rolling 6d8) depending how one reads Healer's Blessing.

With regards to Jason's post, it is very telling about how Empower Spell works. Here's the rub, there's no text actually saying Healer's Blessing functions exactly like Empower Spell. I realize this is nitpicking semantics, and ultimately it's healing and not damage.

But my argument because considerably more reasonable if you read and bold-face in this manner. "At 6th level, all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered, increasing the amount of damage healed by half (+50%)"

Amount of damage will again by definition always include your bonus from CL. There is no case in which the caster level does not add to the damage healed. To me this second sentence seems to create an exception for cure spells that affects the entire amount of damage healed rather than the variable part. In fact, no reference is made to dice, variables or caster level.


LordZod wrote:
One problem with this is that Oracles do not get the Heal spell learned for free (as they only get "cure" spells learned for free). Level 12 Clerics actually get 2+1 spell slots for level 6 spells and could theoretically prepare Heal in all three if they so desired if they were Healing domain. Or you know, use a lower level spell slot to do the same thing. With healer's blessing on CCW you'd be essentially healing for 6d8 + 12 or 6d8 + 18 (without actually rolling 6d8) depending how one reads Healer's Blessing.

Of course a life oracle gets heal at level 11 (making it a 5th level spell for them) so i guess its not that bad.

Liberty's Edge

Dragonsong wrote:


Of course a life oracle gets heal at level 11 (making it a 5th level spell for them) so i guess its not that bad.

This has been errata'ed. They get it at Level 12 now. Check the PRD.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:


Of course a life oracle gets heal at level 11 (making it a 5th level spell for them) so i guess its not that bad.
This has been errata'ed. They get it at Level 12 now. Check the PRD.

Of course they still get it for free which was more what I was getting at. Yes SOME oracles dont get heal and Mass heal for free but Lord Zod might have not been representing all of the varieties of options in the class accurately.

Scarab Sages

I think mysteries provide benefits that are FAR cooler than the Cleric domains. Not only does a mystery grant spells, but the mystery abilities are AWESOME. They really allow you to make a truly blasty/tanky/healy/etc. oracle without all that dabbling a Cleric has to do. Plus, you never need to worry about spell preparation, which annoys some players. Combine with the fact that several oracle abilities are just plain awesome or super useful, and you have a really epic class that, in my mind, blows clerics out of the water as far as displays of divine power are concerned.

Silver Crusade

Realy your a oracle and your fist level 6 spell is not heal? And the only other must have spells for divine caster at level 6 is blade barrier and banishment. Other then thes three? What other spell is a must have spell for a divine caster at level6?

So your going to take blade barrier or banishment over heal at level 12? realy realy? No it's not free but you do get to pick it as a spell. And there are no other spell that is better to have.

So yes at level 12. Cleric 2/day Oracle 3/day , But the cap is still Cleric 4/day Oracle 6/day. This is base casting not counting domain or mysterys. How meny clerics will take healing domain realy? How meny oracles will take life mystery realy?

Clerics and Oracles both make good healers. Oracles are more focused becous of there mystery. clerics are more of a genral divine caster.

And any one that played the game for to long knows. Healing in combat is a wast of time. So making a healing focused character is all but a wast of time.


Even if the Healing Domain ability only applies to the dice, on average the Domain power beats out the Revelation for as long as the spell is relevant.

Example: CMW at caster level 13

Cleric: 2d8x1.5 (average 13.5) + 10 = 23.5 average
Oracle: 2d8+13 = 21 average

The Oracle has a higher minimum (15) vs the Cleric (13), but the Cleric has a higher maximum (34) than the Oracle (29). At level 15, the Oracles average is higher, but he can't hit the same maximum as the Cleric until level 18.

The only 2 spells that this has an appreciable effect on for the Oracle is CLW and CMW. The ability sounds nice in theory, but it's underwhelming IMO when you look at the math. If you take it at level 7 (since there's no point taking it earlier), you're spending it on a +2 to Cure Light Wounds, that's it. By that point, 1d8+7 is barely worth an action in combat, unless all you have left is 1st level spells, because any CR appropriate opponent will be able to do 2-3 times as much damage as that on a full attack.


Great link from Jason

But, I think it still needs errarta, and I don't know if that is really errata if you read through the post. So have anyone seen anything newer? A FAQ or errata?

Shadow Lodge

I think you guys are overlooking/underestimating the Spirit Boost Revelation from the Oracle of Life

Mass cure light wounds is a great pre battle stratagy

The Exchange

I've played oracles, and y'all are SERIOUSLY understimating the power of the oracle.

Oracles of Life render the advice that says healing is a poor choice obsolete, in this one edge cast. Because healing over max count as TEMPORARY HIT POINTS. I haven't audited the build, but one of our players cranks 90 hp a round AoE.

Revelations Oracles via Color Spray - are a broken strong which I recognized in the beta.

Take something along the line of: Magical lineage, SF, GSF. Heighten. Quicken, and/or Threnodic.

Start with an 18 pt charisma buy, add +6 and toss in your 2 adders (or 17 and toss in 3). Season with UMD.

fly, so your cone now affects 3x3...

So, as an 11th level char, you can toss off DC 27 will saves that subtract 9 hd and so can affect 15HD critters (iirc).


Sangalor wrote:


Regarding the variable part question fo empowering: In case you do not know it, there's a post by Jason Buhlman stating that only the variable part is increased. So I guess that's the way it is handled in Pathfinder :-)

I'll see your quote and raise you the Official FAQ.

Pathfinder FAQ

'FAQ' wrote:


Empower Spell (page 122): If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/08/11 Back to Top

So currently in Pathfinder a Enpowered Cure Moderate form a 12th level cleric heals (2d8 +10) x 1.5 for an AVERAGE heal of 28.


Ughbash wrote:
Sangalor wrote:


Regarding the variable part question fo empowering: In case you do not know it, there's a post by Jason Buhlman stating that only the variable part is increased. So I guess that's the way it is handled in Pathfinder :-)

I'll see your quote and raise you the Official FAQ.

Pathfinder FAQ

'FAQ' wrote:


Empower Spell (page 122): If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/08/11 Back to Top

So currently in Pathfinder a Enpowered Cure Moderate form a 12th level cleric heals (2d8 +10) x 1.5 for an AVERAGE heal of 28.

At the time Sangalor wrote that he was correct. The FAQ you mentioned is very recent.


You also fail to notice one other Revelation: Combat Healer.

Personal experience: Melee fighter gets hit by an undead dragon, goes down to negative. I go over to him, provoking an AOO (undead dragon misses). Swift action, burn two level 1 slots to put a CLW on the fighter, bringing him up to the positive side. Burned standard action on a CSW to burn the undeed dragon. One successful touch attack later, one failed will save, and the UD is done.

In order for a cleric to do the same, he will need to burn a feat and a higher slot to do so.

And I was an Oracle of Battle. If I was an Oracle of Life, watch out. he can heal alot more in one round than alot or clerics can do with out burning a higher spell slot and feats, since you have to prepare that spell if you want to quicken it.


I love my oracle of heaven, in PFS

color spray is insane, she has mysteries that target all 3 saves

lots of 'SU' so no worries about AOO/grappled

she is 6th and when fully buffed can hit AC 35, and if allowed fro 3-4 combats per day, and dish out >adequate damage in melee

lots good social skill and RP oppos.

UMD is really high

Aside from a weak Fort save, she is perfect

clerics just seem dull now.


thenovalord wrote:


clerics just seem dull now.

Don't worry Clerics find you dull too.

I think the Oracle/Cleric argument that it's a fair comparison between Sorcerer/Wizard is a good one. Oracle's are quite good at what they specialize in but a truly focused cleric can do everything that oracle can do but still spend a couple of minutes filling out empty spell slots with stuff the oracle only dreams about. A super specialized oracle can certainly outdo the cleric in their chosen field but like all specialists they run the risk of becoming irrelevant in situations that don't cater to their specific requirements.

Also the cleric is not required to be blind/lame/haunted by spirits etc. to work.

Sons of true metal play Evangelists of Gorum.


One weakness of the Oracle as I see it is that much of the Cleric spell list is highly reactive and/or situational, which is OK for the cleric because they can cast all the spells anyway (barring alignment restrictions). You get things like Comprehend Languages, the Restoration line, Slow/Neutralize Poison, Align Weapon, Augury, and so on. This lets a Cleric learn stuff about the situation he's going into, and prepare accordingly - even moreso than a Wizard, because the Wizard is still limited by the spells chosen. If a Cleric is going to explore ruins from an ancient people, he can prep with Comprehend Languages to deal with inscriptions. If he's going after snake-people, bring out Slow/Neutralize Poison. Undead? Get some Restorations to help with energy/stat drains.

But the Oracle doesn't get to do that. He has to choose his spell selection permanently. If he wants Neutralize Poison, he might permanently give up Sending or Air Walk.

The Sorcerer vs the Wizard has a bit of the same problem, but that's alleviated by most of the Sor/Wiz list being proactive rather than reactive.


Staffan Johansson wrote:
This lets a Cleric learn stuff about the situation he's going into,

if the oracle has the answer, then he really has the answer.

plus everyone turns to the cleric for healing so he never gets to use his spells learnt....does he give up neut posion or airwalk?

and cleric you are dull. Have you ever sat down and had a chat. If its not about the heal skill or know,religion....you know nothing, plus about 1/3rd into my adventuring life the oracle can UMD wotever needs doing

so i can shield, false life, haste etc


Beorn the Bear wrote:
An oracle of life who takes Multiple "Extra Revelation" feats is the most fantastic heal-bot that you can build. No cleric can match the heal-bot capabilities of an Oracle of Life. That is all.

This is not true. The Oracle of Life is the second best heal-bot you can build. From Ultimate Combat you can now select the Merciful Healer (I think that's what it's called) cleric archetype that will out-heal an Oracle of Life.

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