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Babhoan(sp) Sith an easy TPK?


Kingmaker


In Rivers Run Red, I just want to make sure I understand this monster correctly. If she does her dance ability and a party of 5th-level PCs see her, the HIGHEST save is generally going to be a +8/+9, which means that person has a 50% chance of succeeding. Thus, if all members of the party fail the save, they stand there dazed while she eats them alive? No more encounter or campaign after that?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It was clarified in the RRR GM thread that she cannot grapple while dancing. So, even in the unlikely scenario that every party member fails the save, she would have to resort to some other way to keep others busy while she feeds. Of course, she does have many other tools at her disposal, so it could still be a very deadly encounter but it's not exactly a one roll TPK.

My PCs discovered that even though they were all 5th level, the quickling gave them so much trouble that they shouldn't explore any further into the keep. Of course, she'll still be almost as deadly to 6th and/or 7th level PCs if they come back later.


Yeah the problem with our campaign is that the sorcerer used obscuring mist for the quickling fight, so Gargadilly ran to the main boss and waited there. Now 3/4 of the party is dazed and if Gargadilly and her can kill the one cogent character, game over.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you need to nerf her, just make her dance a set number of rounds per day like a Bardic Performance. Or allow a save each round, like Hold Person.

Cheliax

Strangely enough this encounter was defeated by the group I DM because they split the party (two 4ths & two 5ths). The party's 5 wisdom rogue got nailed with the insanity mist and the party's monk/fighter, thinking someone on the second floor of the tower set it off raced up the stairs. He was followed by the inquisitor a round later. By that point when the inquisitor got to the top floor, he saw a drooling companion stairing at the dancing lady. He made his save and was able to warn the rogue (who became catatonic anyways) and the sorceress to avert their eyes when they were arriving. The encounter became much easier after that although the sorceress was quite shocked when the Sith came after her due to being the only female competition in the room.

As a DM I liked this encounter with wisdom draining mist to soften up the will saves against the Sith's dance along with the tactics described for the Sith.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Elfgasm wrote:
Yeah the problem with our campaign is that the sorcerer used obscuring mist for the quickling fight, so Gargadilly ran to the main boss and waited there. Now 3/4 of the party is dazed and if Gargadilly and her can kill the one cogent character, game over.

Based on how the relationship between fey is presented in the text, I see no reason why Gargadilly would run to her. He would be more interested in his own treasure and if it could not be protected effectively, he's to flee the keep (as per his stat block). Making the party face the two of them together is a little mean - but still beatable. Besides, if he runs up to her room, he'd set off the trap so at least the party wouldn't have to worry about that.

Since the baobhan sith's ability is sight based, if it's the sorcerer who makes the save another obscuring mist will effectively counter her ability (and the quickling's sneak attack) since no one will be able to see her.

Likewise, for other characters, I'd say that if they make any attempts to cover the eyes of their allies (as a standard action, perhaps) they would at least get another saving throw. There should be more than one way out of it for quick thinking characters.


>>It was clarified in the RRR GM thread that she cannot grapple while dancing.

That would have been useful to know... still I enjoy how our group handled it. The only one not fascinated was the fey-loving Druid, which made for an interesting conversation.

Ultimately, she attacked the "least favorite" of his companions since she "certainly" wouldn't want to harm any of his friends since he was so nice; but of course she told him, "there's always *that guy* among the group who you don't get along with." Despite the boon she granted the Druid, she was attacked by the assaulted companion and the Druid (who chose bros over... sith), but she ultimately escaped out a window.

Somewhere, out in the wilderness, she and Rigg Gargadilly (who ran away a little earlier after annoying the group a great deal), and a random encounter Will O' the Wisp are having a fine good old time and waiting to come back as recurring monsters in Varnhold Vanishing.

The female cleric player missed out on that session.


All is well! Gargadilly and the Sith won initiative, and Rigg hit the Sorcerer with his sword...however, the Sorcerer made the Fort save. The Sith then used Entagle on the Sorcerer, and he failed the save, but subsequently made the Concentration check to cast Obscuring Mist, and the battle erupted. The Sorcerer hit Rigg with the Fey Bane sword from the Haunted Barrow, scaring him off, and the Sith was killed after killing only one party member (the female Gnome Sorcerer.)


Tem wrote:

It was clarified in the RRR GM thread that she cannot grapple while dancing. So, even in the unlikely scenario that every party member fails the save, she would have to resort to some other way to keep others busy while she feeds. Of course, she does have many other tools at her disposal, so it could still be a very deadly encounter but it's not exactly a one roll TPK.

My PCs discovered that even though they were all 5th level, the quickling gave them so much trouble that they shouldn't explore any further into the keep. Of course, she'll still be almost as deadly to 6th and/or 7th level PCs if they come back later.

Saw this post and found the spot in the RRR you referred to. Knowing this now makes this encounter laughable. Even if the baobhan sith captivated every party member, as soon as she successfully grapples one of them the rest of the party is no longer captivated and she dies in a round or two. She can't even captivate any of them again if she wanted to.

Use of suggestion and entangle might be the only way to save this encounter. Or use of "I'm the DM" and I'm making this encounter memorable :P

Taldor

KwwB wrote:
Tem wrote:

It was clarified in the RRR GM thread that she cannot grapple while dancing. So, even in the unlikely scenario that every party member fails the save, she would have to resort to some other way to keep others busy while she feeds. Of course, she does have many other tools at her disposal, so it could still be a very deadly encounter but it's not exactly a one roll TPK.

My PCs discovered that even though they were all 5th level, the quickling gave them so much trouble that they shouldn't explore any further into the keep. Of course, she'll still be almost as deadly to 6th and/or 7th level PCs if they come back later.

Saw this post and found the spot in the RRR you referred to. Knowing this now makes this encounter laughable. Even if the baobhan sith captivated every party member, as soon as she successfully grapples one of them the rest of the party is no longer captivated and she dies in a round or two. She can't even captivate any of them again if she wanted to.

Use of suggestion and entangle might be the only way to save this encounter. Or use of "I'm the DM" and I'm making this encounter memorable :P

If she has everyone captivated, she can take them on one at a time at her pleasure, using her claw attacks- leaving the one who appears to be the groups most competent warrior for last to grapple.


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
KwwB wrote:
Tem wrote:

It was clarified in the RRR GM thread that she cannot grapple while dancing. So, even in the unlikely scenario that every party member fails the save, she would have to resort to some other way to keep others busy while she feeds. Of course, she does have many other tools at her disposal, so it could still be a very deadly encounter but it's not exactly a one roll TPK.

My PCs discovered that even though they were all 5th level, the quickling gave them so much trouble that they shouldn't explore any further into the keep. Of course, she'll still be almost as deadly to 6th and/or 7th level PCs if they come back later.

Saw this post and found the spot in the RRR you referred to. Knowing this now makes this encounter laughable. Even if the baobhan sith captivated every party member, as soon as she successfully grapples one of them the rest of the party is no longer captivated and she dies in a round or two. She can't even captivate any of them again if she wanted to.

Use of suggestion and entangle might be the only way to save this encounter. Or use of "I'm the DM" and I'm making this encounter memorable :P

If she has everyone captivated, she can take them on one at a time at her pleasure, using her claw attacks- leaving the one who appears to be the groups most competent warrior for last to grapple.

How so? If grappling someone would break the dance on everyone because she is no longer "sustaining" the dance, then how can she attack and sustain the dance?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber

...because grappling is an action that is sustained the entire round(s) and a claw attack is just one of many things you're capable of doing during a round, I'd guess.


Squeatus wrote:
...because grappling is an action that is sustained the entire round(s) and a claw attack is just one of many things you're capable of doing during a round, I'd guess.

Ahhhh spot on. So basically if she dazes everyone with her dance it could be a TPK :(

Would the person she is attacking while dancing be able to fight back? From what I can see the answer would be no. They just sit there and let her tear them to shreds...

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber
KwwB wrote:
Squeatus wrote:
Would the person she is attacking while dancing be able to fight back? From what I can see the answer would be no. They just sit there and let her tear them to shreds...

I'm sincerely doubting the TPK, but I'd say even though it isn't listed, the ability is mind-affecting and thus an enchantment, and subject to the elf +2 bonus.

Hopefully there's someone not attracted to females for another effective +2 bonus.

She's ready to drop suggestion on anyone who makes it through, so I expect if they all charge into the room (and thus into the area of effect) without some caution it could get ugly.

They can defend themselves normally although that's it... maybe limit it to a number of rounds equal to constitution for every round she dances *and* exerts herself physically, like attacking with claws, then she drops to fatigued or has to make a choice between dropping the dazed conditions or whatever.

Really, though, I think it's very scary but not insurmountable if everyone is dazed on entry, she drops entangle on the entire crew (no reflex save, I'd rule) for half-speed movement + difficult terrain and they're moving 1-2 squares a turn to get to the unlucky guy who almost becomes her meal.


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Well, she ended up captivating four of the six PC's. The oracle of life who basically never hits things, and has purely healing/support spells and feats, and the two-weapon fighter resisted. The next round she made the fighter protect her via suggestion.

Regardless to say it was pretty bad, and I knew it would be which is why I came looking here for answers because I thought it was very likely to be a TPK. The party is very very bad at will saves. Both the wizard and the rogue have 7 wisdom, which they chose, essentially for power gaming.

Two of the six party members died, that baobhan sith drained the oracle of battle (yes the party has two oracles) to death from CON damage, and the grimstalker from one of the outlying towers was there to aid his "love" (the PC's encountered him previously, but he successfully got away) killing the party wizard; mostly because the wizard acted like an idiot.

All in all I think it was a very memorable fight that no one will forget, which is the best outcome regardless of player deaths.

Thanks to everyone for your help! :)

Taldor

Power gaming is never dumping wisdom lol.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber

So it worked out perfectly. :)


I never feel pity for those who fail Will saves with Wis 7


I've sort of terrorized my party into being tactically better. I've had some 4 character deaths so far:

Paladin got separated off from the group as they chased after The Stag Lord, and The Stag Lord slipped up behind him, and took a full round to kill him, with two Deadly Aimed sneak attacks to the back.

The Druid got killed when she went off by herself to "scout ahead" alone in another hex while the party went to fetch a boat to cross the Tuskwater, and a Wyvern got her while she was in hawk form, got the grapple, and it pretty much went south from there. I pre-roll my random encounters by hex to save time, so when she went into the hex to explore, she got the encounter that was there. I don't fudge, period.

The Bard, who is also king, died when the party got messed up by a giant spider encounter where they got webbed down, and the spiders took out the bard before anyone could get to him.

And finally, the fighter (who replaced the paladin) got killed by a 7-Troll scouting party when they critted on the rend. He did manage to take down 3 before fell though.

The group has actually taken out what they call a "life insurance" policy at the captial's Cathedral of Erastil, so they have prepaid for Raise Dead and Restoration spells, but they also straightened up their personal tactics a great deal, so by the time they hit the Abandoned Keep, they were ready for it.

Gargadilly did bamf off, and he'll be joining Dovan from the first chapter and the band he's set up in my game, and the crew came to face the Sith, they took it by the numbers, disarming the trap, and sending up only a single person at first to recon the floor. Unfortunately, the dice were against her, and she got attacked for some serious damage. the bard got her back to the main group, but the Sith moved and did the dance, taking control of the tanked out Fighter, ordering him to defend her. It looked sort of grim, but the Bard managed to come up with a solution: countersong. He'd been getting his charisma stat up so that he could get better bonuses as king, and it paid off here. Using the song to counter her magic took him out of the fight, but removed her most direct threats, with the Fighter snapping out of his trance in melee range of her. She didn't last too long after that.


which level was the party when they faced a 7 troll scouting party? That sounds badly balanced.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber
gustavo iglesias wrote:
which level was the party when they faced a 7 troll scouting party? That sounds badly balanced.

Possible explanation and minor spoiler:
This AP installment presumes levels 5ish through 7, and the random encounter table provided includes an encounter with 2d4 trolls. Most encounters are level appropriate, but the troll one averages higher than APL and at the top end is way above APL. I think the idea with the larger groups is to run, though. :)
Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
gustavo iglesias wrote:
which level was the party when they faced a 7 troll scouting party? That sounds badly balanced.

Just because you roll it doesn't mean you have to kill them with it. They can always run away .... errr I meant tactically withdraw.


PJ wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
which level was the party when they faced a 7 troll scouting party? That sounds badly balanced.
Just because you roll it doesn't mean you have to kill them with it. They can always run away .... errr I meant tactically withdraw.

Nah. They got rid of running away back in 3.0. Now, throwing an encounter the party can't easily steamroll is just bad Dming. [/sarcasm]

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
PJ wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
which level was the party when they faced a 7 troll scouting party? That sounds badly balanced.
Just because you roll it doesn't mean you have to kill them with it. They can always run away .... errr I meant tactically withdraw.
Nah. They got rid of running away back in 3.0. Now, throwing an encounter the party can't easily steamroll is just bad Dming. [/sarcasm]

:-)

Andoran

I had the quickling attack during the battle with her. In fact, our fighter is the only one to engage her (since two party memebers were fighting the quickling and the Paladin kept failing his climb check in fullplate 5 times trying to reach the upper floor....)The fighter beat her down handidly....

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

My players just encountered her two sessions ago and they all failed their Will save except for the wizard. The wizard managed to hold off the quickling and grimstalkers by himself for awhile while the Dancing Lady did her thing. However, I could see my players getting frustrated by not being able to do anything so after a few rounds to let them sweat a little, I allowed them to reroll their saves, but not to recover. If they made the save they were still enthralled but became jealous of whoever was dancing with her at the time. This lead to the cleric casting hold person on the fighter and then finally the oracle bullrushing the cleric into the Dancing Lady and disrupting her dance. The ranger continued to dance like he was at a rave. All in all, it was actually the first really challenging encounter for them in the book.

Silver Crusade

Very close call with our group for a TPK. 3 out of 4 players failed the intial save, and she Entangled the one free character, then made a Suggestion for him to go gather berries in the forest when he got free. Was very eerie as folks went up the stairs in pairs; the bottom players saw a captivated PC swaying to the dance and looked to see what was causing it.

Anyways, consistent with (but not exactly like) the above RRR thread, I ruled she could not maintain a grapple while "pinning" someone, but in macabre fashion, she could while grappling a captivated character (who would dance with her as she moved to pin). Was a close call regardless and a memorably dangerous foe. If she could maintain dance and pin, game over.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
M P 433 wrote:

Very close call with our group for a TPK. 3 out of 4 players failed the intial save, and she Entangled the one free character, then made a Suggestion for him to go gather berries in the forest when he got free. Was very eerie as folks went up the stairs in pairs; the bottom players saw a captivated PC swaying to the dance and looked to see what was causing it.

Anyways, consistent with (but not exactly like) the above RRR thread, I ruled she could not maintain a grapple while "pinning" someone, but in macabre fashion, she could while grappling a captivated character (who would dance with her as she moved to pin). Was a close call regardless and a memorably dangerous foe. If she could maintain dance and pin, game over.

Wow! I can't wait until my pcs get there.


I modified the encounter a bit, by the time my group encountered the Dancing Lady they had killed the modified quickling and the grimstalker. Out of my 6 PC's two were female, they both made their saves and spent the combat throwing the boys down the stairwell to break her spell.

Since the party was large I let her maintain her ability even while draining helpless victims. It was ugly, but no-one died. Probably helped that all but 1 passed their insanity mist save.


In my party, the sorceress/monk and bard were the only two of the four to pass their will saves. They were terribly out-matched, until the bard thought to hit the to meleers with... glitterdust. One failed his Will save and was blinded, which snapped him out of the Sith's dance and he helped to kill her good after that, because 50% miss chance is better than inability to do anything...


We cleared the tower today. Cleric player was unavailable. She was sorely missed.

The gate caught the Ranger solidly. Ow. It took a bit to get her free.

Rigg was a notable annoyance. He evaded a Fireball of Player Frustration and made the Alchemist use a Targeted Bomb Admixture (which also missed), but when they tagged him they tagged him good. He escaped with 1 or 2 hit points.

The Grimstalker and his pal went down fast, despite totally getting the drop on the group. A lucky Lightning Bolt and a second Targeted Bomb Admixture took him out, his leafy companion going even faster.

After the trap on the first floor "de-buffed" Will Saves The Dancer trapped all four (Cavalier, Ranger (and Cat), Wizard , and Alchemist) with her dance. The female Ranger shook it off when the Dancer attacked (not being Surprised *and* making her save when the Dancer began to dance again) but fell for the suggestion that she collect flowers on the (Illusionary) balcony. By the time she made it back up to the tower the dancer and the Cavalier were almost done their dance -- he was down to 2 Con.

The fight ended up with the Ranger and the Cavalier out (the Cavalier stabilized at -1 hp -- he would be dead-dead at -2!) the Alchemist with 2 hp left and low Con, and the Wizard chasing the Baobhan Sith around with a flaming sphere (move action) while casting Magic Missile.

Good times. As close to a TPK as I've gotten in a long time.

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