Archivist APG Bard - Badly written descriptions.

[had3l]

Lamentable Belabourment is listed as a 6th level ability for the Archivist Bard, and the text says that it substitutes a 9th level ability (Inspire Greatness), which doesn't make much sense since all other alternative abilities for all other classes substitute abilities at the same level.

However, Suggestion is a 6th level ability and at 18th level, the improved version of Lamentable Belabourment substitutes Mass Suggestion.

And the mechanic of Lamentable Belabourment is a lot more like Suggestion than Inspire Greatness.

Can I assume that it was a typo and Lamentable Belabourment is supposed to substitute Suggestion instead? Is there some sort of errata correcting this or can I get an official answer in that regard?

Thanks.

(Also, Magic Lore states that the Archivist gets a bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but it doesn't say what that bonus is. "Magic Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist gains a bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items or decipher scrolls and may take 10 on such checks.")

[Grick]

had3l wrote:

Magic Lore states that the Archivist gets a bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but it doesn't say what that bonus is.

I think it's reasonable to assume the bonus is half his Bard level, that's what the other skill bonus substitutions seem to be in the APG.

Lamentable Belabourment does seem to be much more Suggestion-like.

I would also love to know if if the Archivist was intended to be unable to take 10 on trained Knowledge checks. Since we have to ID a creature to use Naturalist performance, gambling on a low roll hurts.

Lore Master: take 10 on trained Knowledge checks, and take 20 1/day.
Archivist Lore Master: take 20 1/day.

[had3l]

Grick wrote:

had3l wrote:

Magic Lore states that the Archivist gets a bonus on Spellcraft checks to identify magic items, but it doesn't say what that bonus is.

I think it's reasonable to assume the bonus is half his Bard level, that's what the other skill bonus substitutions seem to be in the APG.

Lamentable Belabourment does seem to be much more Suggestion-like.

I would also love to know if if the Archivist was intended to be unable to take 10 on trained Knowledge checks. Since we have to ID a creature to use Naturalist performance, gambling on a low roll hurts.

Lore Master: take 10 on trained Knowledge checks, and take 20 1/day.
Archivist Lore Master: take 20 1/day.

No one?

The three issues were:

Lamentable Belabourment substitutes an ability 3 levels higher, when it seems like it should be substituting suggestion.

Magic Lore states you get a bonus to spellcraft but doesn't quantify that bonus.

The Archivist Lore Master can't take 10 on knowledge checks - Is this an oversight or a design choice?

[James Jacobs]

I believe that it's an intentional design choice that some abilities substitute out higher level abilities; you get a lesser power earlier, but at the cost of a better power later.

But hit that FAQ flag and we'll get to answering the question eventually!

[Arkadwyn]

James Jacobs wrote:

I believe that it's an intentional design choice that some abilities substitute out higher level abilities; you get a lesser power earlier, but at the cost of a better power later.

But hit that FAQ flag and we'll get to answering the question eventually!

Any chance of getting an update on this soon? It's been nearly a month now. Seems that getting the take 20 ability earlier (at the cost of versatile performance) does not balance unless the ability to take 10 is retained.

This isn't a case of getting a lesser power earlier, but rather of getting the same power earlier and giving up another power entirely.

[Jikuu]

Interesting. I had asked this question a while before. For what it's worth, my GM and I worked it out by RAI. Since the 18th level ability replaced mass suggestion at 18th and comparing to other APG bard builds that would switch out both suggestion and mass suggestion, we ruled that lamentable belabourment swapped out for suggestion and the archivist still gets inspire greatness. Considering they're trying to give the archivist the lecturer vibe with putting people to sleep, it makes sense you should be able to "inspire your students".

And for what it's worth, I've been treating Archivist Lore Master as the old Lore Master because as a player, I prefer knowing what's hitting me without having to worry about a bad role.