I thought it might be fun to assign alignments to famous fictitious villains and heroes.
Darth Vader - LE
Luke Skywalker - CG
Conan - CN
Sauron - NE or CE, cant decide.
Gandalf - LG
Frodo - NG
Samwise - NG
Feel free to discuss, disagree, and add your own.
Interesting characters are always difficult to pigeonhole into D&D alignments. I've got a couple of disputes with your picks:
Darth Vader - NE - "I'm altering the bargain. Pray I don't alter it further". Even devils stick by their deals.
Sauron - LE - I think he was pacting around quite a lot to build his armies. Besides, I think it's awful hard to hold together an army of miscreants without being LE.
Gandalf - NG or CG - I think he was far too flighty to be LG.
Sam - LG - Close call on this one and NG is a safe bet. Sam was letter of the law all the way...sometimes missing out on the spirit. I think that still lets him be LG.
Here are a couple:
James Tiberius Kirk - CG
Spock - LN (tending toward good, but generally not recognizing anything as either good nor evil)
Have to invent a new one for:
The Terminator - L (yeah, that's it, lol)
Edit: Then again, I'm never sure I understand Lawful. I guess Kirk could be said to be lawful...in that he pretty consistently obey's "Kirk's Law". Even so, I'm pretty sure I could find exceptions.
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What time is it?
ALIGNMENT TIME! (with Finn and Jake)
Lawful Good: Finn the Human
Chaotic Good: Jake the Dog
Neutral Good: Lady Raincorn
Lawful Neutral: BUFO
True Neutral: Princess Bubblegum
Chaotic Neutral: The Magic Man
Lawful Evil: Gunter the Penguin
Neutral Evil: Ice King
Chaotic Evil: Marceline the Vampire Queen
Adventure Time is such a great show for illustrating that you can have a D&D alignment and still be a complex character! I intend to do some livejournal posts about that in the near future.
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I'm so out of it. I have no idea who any of those characters are.
M
I'm so out of it. I have no idea who any of those characters are.
M
I've seen the show and don't know who half those characters are.
Interesting characters are always difficult to pigeonhole into D&D alignments. I've got a couple of disputes with your picks:
Darth Vader - NE - "I'm altering the bargain. Pray I don't alter it further". Even devils stick by their deals.
Sauron - LE - I think he was pacting around quite a lot to build his armies. Besides, I think it's awful hard to hold together an army of miscreants without being LE.
Gandalf - NG or CG - I think he was far too flighty to be LG.
Sam - LG - Close call on this one and NG is a safe bet. Sam was letter of the law all the way...sometimes missing out on the spirit. I think that still lets him be LG.Here are a couple:
James Tiberius Kirk - CG
Spock - LN (tending toward good, but generally not recognizing anything as either good nor evil)Have to invent a new one for:
The Terminator - L (yeah, that's it, lol)Edit: Then again, I'm never sure I understand Lawful. I guess Kirk could be said to be lawful...in that he pretty consistently obey's "Kirk's Law". Even so, I'm pretty sure I could find exceptions.
Good point on Vader, I would still call him LE, personally mainly because for the most part he obeyed and gave orders and did have a sense of honor and tradition.
I chose NE for Sauron because he originally rose to power by deceiving and subjugating the free peoples of Middle Earth, by the time of the war of the ring he was worshipped as a god by his armies and I think that there were really very few "deals," that took place. Though Tolkein leaves a lot open to interpretation.
I almost chose LG for Sam. I agree with that interpretation. Also see where you are coming from with Gandalf.
Spot on with Kirk and Spock.
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Batman = CN
http://facepwn.com/posters/batman-alignment.jpg
Discuss.
Batman is the alignment of his current writer.
/thread
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Teddy Roosevelt -- CG
Franklin Delano Roosevelt --NG
Lyndon Johnson -- LE
Richard Nixon --- CE
Ghandi -- NG
Mother Teresa -NGOh wait, oops I missed the "Fictitious" part. Ok then, how about:
Dr Jekyll -- CN
Mr Hyde -- CEIndiana Jones --- CG
I think listing political figures like you did is bad form and opens up a can of worms that should be left closed.
Megatron: LE
Starscream: CE
Devastator: NE
Jetfire: LN
Ironhide: N
Wheelie: CN
Optimus: LG
Bumblebee: NG
Skids/Mudflap: CG
Movie versions as of the Second Movie.
George Jetson: LG
Elroy: NG
Judy: CG
Rosy: LN
Jane: TN
Astro: CN
Mr Spacely: LE
Mr Cogswell: NE
Arthur Spacely: CE
Teddy Roosevelt -- CG
Franklin Delano Roosevelt --NG
Lyndon Johnson -- LE
Richard Nixon --- CE
Ghandi -- NG
Mother Teresa -NGOh wait, oops I missed the "Fictitious" part. Ok then, how about:
Dr Jekyll -- CN
Mr Hyde -- CEIndiana Jones --- CG
I agree that we should stick to fiction, however, Richard Nixon (as portrayed in Futurama) is the epitome of NE.
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I agree that we should stick to fiction, however, Richard Nixon (as portrayed in Futurama) is the epitome of NE.Teddy Roosevelt -- CG
Franklin Delano Roosevelt --NG
Lyndon Johnson -- LE
Richard Nixon --- CE
Ghandi -- NG
Mother Teresa -NGOh wait, oops I missed the "Fictitious" part. Ok then, how about:
Dr Jekyll -- CN
Mr Hyde -- CEIndiana Jones --- CG
I can agree with that and get a good laugh out of it. I love futurama.
you do know that complete scoundrel had this idea with more than a few good examples?
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Darth Vader - NE - "I'm altering the bargain. Pray I don't alter it further". Even devils stick by their deals.
Devils stick to their deals because they are the physical embodiment of LAWFUL EVIL (it's literally in their blood/subtype. Even then, they distort the deal when they can.
Lawful Evil mortals, like Darth Vader on the other hand, have a TENDENCY to stick to their deals. Having LE alignment doesn't mean they MUST stick to the deal 100% of the time. Therefore, Darth Vader remains LE in my book despite their being evidence of a single betrayal.
Even LG characters steal from time to time, it's just highly unusual for them. Alignments aren't straight jackets. Just guides.
Darth Vader - NE - "I'm altering the bargain. Pray I don't alter it further". Even devils stick by their deals.Devils stick to their deals because they are the physical embodiment of LAWFUL EVIL (it's literally in their blood/subtype. Even then, they distort the deal when they can.
Lawful Evil mortals, like Darth Vader on the other hand, have a TENDENCY to stick to their deals. Having LE alignment doesn't mean they MUST stick to the deal 100% of the time. Therefore, Darth Vader remains LE in my book despite their being evidence of a single betrayal.
Even LG characters steal from time to time, it's just highly unusual for them. Alignments aren't straight jackets. Just guides.
+1 Word
Come to think of it I can't believe we missed Lando, Hahn, & Chewie
Lando - CG or CN, cant decide.
Hahn - Started out CN but then shifted to CG sometime around Empire.
Chewie - ??
Batman is Lawful or Neutral, not Chaotic. You can't have that type of organization, planning, and rigid code by being chaotic.
I would say that Batman is NG simply because he goes outside the law to accomplish his goals.
The Punisher, on the other hand, now there is a CN antihero.
you do know that complete scoundrel had this idea with more than a few good examples?
I didn't know that.
examples of complete scoundrel:
LG = Batman/Indiana Jones
LN = James Bond
LE = Boba Fett / Magneto
NG = Zorro / Spiderman
N = Lara Croft
NE = Mystique from X-men
CG = Malcolm Reynolds / Robin hood
CN = Jack Sparrow / Snake Plissken
CE = Riddick (Pitch black)
I agree with those choices, and for Darth Vader, I would put him along LE, he's not the best example, but that would be my category of choice.
A good way I have found for sorting out alignment issues isn't "What would so-and-so do?" Rather, it is "What would so-and-so NOT do?"
So, would Batman not risk innocents to bring down a villain? Would he not break a promise if it suited him? Etc. etc.
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I have a hard time believing LG for batman since superman is an epitomy of LG and Batman and him clash so badly on the "right" way to take care of criminals. Batman is strong in the chaos department. Chaos does not mean stupid, or ignorant of information. It's operating outside what's considered the "right" way to do something.
I can agree with that and get a good laugh out of it. I love futurama.I agree that we should stick to fiction, however, Richard Nixon (as portrayed in Futurama) is the epitome of NE.Teddy Roosevelt -- CG
Franklin Delano Roosevelt --NG
Lyndon Johnson -- LE
Richard Nixon --- CE
Ghandi -- NG
Mother Teresa -NGOh wait, oops I missed the "Fictitious" part. Ok then, how about:
Dr Jekyll -- CN
Mr Hyde -- CEIndiana Jones --- CG
"I've been such a McGovern."
"The loot! The loot! The loot is on fire!""I'm giving a tax rebate in the form of a Tricky Dick fun bill."
and, my personal favorite.
"...and if you dont pay your taxes you are free to spend a week with the pain monster!"
yes, it is difficult to characterize a character like batman, because there are so many different versions of him.
But still, he has very clear rules, he does not kill. He is a little more with punch than other super heroes.
He is perhaps no paladin, but only by a very few things. He got his gadgets that would count as poison, but they don't damage, they stun.
yes, it is difficult to characterize a character like batman, because there are so many different versions of him.Thus my link. :)
But still, he has very clear rules, he does not kill.Except for those versions which do. Original Batman stone-cold shot dudes with his .45 auto.
It all depends on the particular Batman that you are referencing. I would say TDK batman is more on the CG side and the animated series batman from the 90s is more LG. Batman is a tough one. Now, the Joker...on the other hand has always been CE.
I had to lol. As soon as I came into ths thread, I did a search for batman.
Hehehe, some things never change...
Anyhow. Batman is True Nuetral, because he is all these things.
Regarding Vader I always had a hard time with the concept that devils can lie. It seems that Lawful means you should be good to your word, but apparently devils can lie all the time- which would seem to mean they have no integrity except they always follow their contracts.
It seems that contracts are the only thing that really binds them. Coming back to Vader, perhaps he just lied to Lando. He was following through on the spirit of the deal (i.e. he didn't just kill him when he didn't need him anymore) and had probably always intended to do so. Therefore, I'd say he lied, which is apparently in keeping with LE.
The mere fact that Vader didn't kill him once he had outlived his usefulness is proof to me that he is LE. A NE or CE villain would have offed him just to eliminate the possiblity of betrayal.
I agree that Vader intended to follow through with the essence of the deal and just considered Hahn & the others to be a footnote in the contract.
I dont think devils can outright lie. Devils in myth and literature tempt mortals with agreements that are not what they seem to be. They can mislead but they choose not to lie.
It is not unlawful to lie, look at lawyers :D
Its the bend towards evil that makes people lie. Chaotic people might very well also have honor. Some old stereo type alignments are wrong.
It is not unlawful to lie, look at lawyers :D
Its the bend towards evil that makes people lie. Chaotic people might very well also have honor. Some old stereo type alignments are wrong.
But that is what alignment is, a stereotype. I think it is widely agreed that Robin Hood is CG and he also has honor but he is more likely to lie than the LG Superman, for instance.
Regarding Vader I always had a hard time with the concept that devils can lie. It seems that Lawful means you should be good to your word, but apparently devils can lie all the time- which would seem to mean they have no integrity except they always follow their contracts.
It seems that contracts are the only thing that really binds them. Coming back to Vader, perhaps he just lied to Lando. He was following through on the spirit of the deal (i.e. he didn't just kill him when he didn't need him anymore) and had probably always intended to do so. Therefore, I'd say he lied, which is apparently in keeping with LE.
When you are Lawful Evil and you have the power to make the laws, you make and change the law as you see fit (to achieve your ultimate goal) and people had better obey... Vader was the Law, and Vaders goal was to make the Empire strong, the basic tenants of the deal were adhered to although it was altered. So Darth Vader was acting in accordance to his alignment.
I actually thought of Jack Sparrow more as a good example of a character who's alignment is always changing. Hmm, but I guess that's pretty well within the bill for CN.
Macbeth-NE, maybe closer to CE as he spins out of control. His motivations are basically selfish: his personal ambition and probably his intoxication with his wife drive him to commit evil acts. Claudius in Hamlet probably also NE. He certainly has a conscience and believes in political organization. He isn't quite monstrous enough to be CE, but he didn't have a personal code of honor strong enough to deter him from murdering his brother and taking his widow, or from trying to have Hamlet murdered.
Iago-CE LE is the archetypal evil mastermind alignment, but he is a 'moral pyromaniac' who creates havoc and causes suffering for the sheer pleasure that affords him.
Hamlet-probably CN because of his erratic behavior. He is certainly not a crusader for good, and he is responsible for a number of violent deaths, but unlike the first two he is not truly sinister.
Lear-CN, demented
Brutus-probably LN. 'Honorable Brutus' is willing to plan and participate in a brutal murder, but in the name of preserving the republic from tyranny and after much persuasion and manipulation by Cassius.
Jane (from Firefly): CN
Mal (from same): CG
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I always liked these debates, except at the gaming table. This is a great place for them.
Roland: Lawful Good, maybe Neutral.
Flagg: Neutral Evil.
Punisher: Always thought more of a Chaotic Good. He has a morale compass and tries to only kill bad guys. I always pictured the Punisher as a very extreme definition of Chaotic Good.
Joker: Chaotic Evil. They should just have his picture beside this alignment.
Superman: Lawful Good.
Road Runner and Coyote: Greatest cartoon ever. Everytime he fell off that cliff I laughed and laugh still.
Leonardo — LG
Michelangelo — CG
Donatello — NG
Raphael - CN
(turtles, not men)
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I have a hard time believing LG for batman since superman is an epitomy of LG and Batman and him clash so badly on the "right" way to take care of criminals. Batman is strong in the chaos department. Chaos does not mean stupid, or ignorant of information. It's operating outside what's considered the "right" way to do something.
Actually, I think their fighting actually SHOWS how they are both Lawful Good.
They both do what they do for the GOOD of their cities, and the people around them.
They Both follow a very strict personal moral code.
However, those moral codes are VERY different from one another, and the environments they work in are wildly different as well (at least if you compare Metropolis and Gotham City).
Both Good, Both Lawful, Both Lawful Good... just not the SAME Lawful Good.
Look @ Order of the Stick... Miko VS OChul. Both Paladins. Both Lawful Good. Not the same at all.
It is not unlawful to lie, look at lawyers :D
Its the bend towards evil that makes people lie. Chaotic people might very well also have honor. Some old stereo type alignments are wrong.
The half truth, the part truth, but nothing but the truth
(cf the oath - the full truth, all the truth and nothing but the truth)
It is not unlawful to lie, look at lawyers :D
Its the bend towards evil that makes people lie. Chaotic people might very well also have honor. Some old stereo type alignments are wrong.
Lawyers never lie, they are just frugal with the truth and are slow to correct misinterpretations.
Chaotic does not mean dishonourable, it means making judgements that may not be consistent with previous judgements.
Bringing it back to the thread, Kikuchiyo from the Seven Samurai. CG trying to be LG
He was the one who wanted to be a samurai and forged documents to say he was - very non-samurai - was very chaotic but was just as honourable as the samurai.
Cheers
