No.
Does a character have to be within one alignment step of a deity to be able to worship them? And I don't mean just Clerics and Paladins, I mean other classes that aren't dependent on their Deity for their powers/abilities (such as a Wizard or Ranger).
Actually even paladins don't have to by RAW.
Huh, ok, so...
Say a person was originally raised to worship Erastil (for example), but due to a traumatic experience, they strayed from the path of good. they could still worship a Good god even if they had shifted to a Neutral Evil character?
Sure.
"I am a monster. I do horrible things -- in the world I'm trying to create there is no place for me."
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While clerics do have to remain within one step of their deity's alignment, other classes generally do not.
That said... if you worship a deity, you're going to be following that deity's teachings and laws and advice, and in so doing you're going to constantly be performing tasks and duties that will shape your personality and ethics naturally into an alignment that's close to the deity's alignment.
It's only if you're a heretic that your alignment will be drastically different than your deity's alignment. And if you're a heretic, you're either a lone lunatic who might just be crazy or willfully blasphemous against the deity you purport to be a worshiper of, or you're a member of a larger group of heretics or cult. There's actually not many hereticial cults in Golarion, but they do exist. Chances are that if your alignment is more than one step removed from the deity you say you worship, you're just a blasphemer. You certainly shouldn't expect any favors or aid from your deity or that deity's church/religion, and in fact you should probably expect to be regarded as a criminal by that church.
A worshiper of Erastil who had a bad experience and became neutral evil would probably NOT continue to worship Erastil. He certainly wouldn't receive any benefit from that worship—magical or mundane. And furthermore, it seems relatively illogical that someone who suffered such a traumatic experience that his alignment shifted from what I assume was lawful good all the way to neutral evil would WANT to keep worshiping Erastil—I would think that character would utterly abandon that faith in favor of one of Erastil's enemies (such as Norgorber) or would become an agnostic or atheist, perhaps one with an agenda to destroy Erastil's church by whatever means necessary. I honestly can't really think of a logical reason, besides "the character is utterly crazy," why such a character would stick with worshiping Erastil.
Note that if such a character DID stick to worshiping Erastil but became a violent, bitter loner, he would probably only be neutral, at worst. As soon as he goes so far as to earn an evil alignment, he's not worshiping Erastil. That'd be like someone claiming they're a jet fighter pilot even though they can't actually fly. It's just flat-out lying.
"I am a monster. I do horrible things -- in the world I'm trying to create there is no place for me."
Isn't that from Serenity?
Isn't that from Serenity?
"I am a monster. I do horrible things -- in the world I'm trying to create there is no place for me."
Yeah and the guy is probably LE anyways... but maybe not -- I certainly am not starting an alignment discussion
After all I already know my own alignment: Lawful Chaotic (good tendencies).
I would suggest though that a large part of the question is "what do you mean by worship?"
After all this is a setting with multiple real gods with powers that do grant things to mortals.
As such a LN character might still pray to Shelyn each night that the girl his parents have him betrothed to is very pretty. A LG paladin might not agree with all of Cayden's excesses -- but he could offer up a prayer for help freeing some Chelaxian slaves -- and the CN ranger who's helping could pray quickly to Imodae to visit terrible justice on the slavers.
This is definitely worship -- heck it might even be worship that's answered in any of these cases.
Well said James, way better worded then what I would have said.
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A worshiper of Erastil who had a bad experience and became neutral evil would probably NOT continue to worship Erastil. He certainly wouldn't receive any benefit from that worship—magical or mundane. And furthermore, it seems relatively illogical that someone who suffered such a traumatic experience that his alignment shifted from what I assume was lawful good all the way to neutral evil would WANT to keep worshiping Erastil—I would think that character would utterly abandon that faith in favor of one of Erastil's enemies (such as Norgorber) or would become an agnostic or atheist, perhaps one with an agenda to destroy Erastil's church by whatever means necessary. I honestly can't really think of a logical reason, besides "the character is utterly crazy," why such a character would stick with worshiping Erastil.
I think there's certainly plenty of cases where you might have misguided worship. A character that once worshiped Erastil and was driven insane could still definitely worship him, though probably in a very wrong way. Instead of protecting the community, he makes sure to slaughter everyone so he is the only community.
It's certainly a WARPED way of worship, but what does this character care? To him, he's worshiping what he believes Erastil really means, and everyone else in the Church is wrong! Certainly it's lying to call him a worshiper of Erastil, but that doesn't change the fact that he still believes himself to be one. :)
On a side note, I have Josh Frost playing a Wizard in my upcoming Serpent's Skull campaign who is LN, but worships Lamashtu. He really doesn't go through the rites and rituals of the actual priests, he worships her simply because he admires the power she holds over monsters (he's also a Conjurer, if that helps).
When a non-cleric worships a god, I think it's really up to them to decide how that worship is done. If they were worshiping a god according to all the normal rights and rituals, well, they probably would be a Cleric, or at least a closer member of the clergy. You could pay lip service to a god but still 'worship' them in your own mind.
I do agree that said worshiper wouldn't get any real mechanical benefit out of it though.
I kind of think the opposite from this. I think there's certainly plenty of cases where you might have misguided worship. A character that once worshiped Erastil and was driven insane could still definitely worship him, though probably in a very wrong way. Instead of protecting the community, he makes sure to slaughter everyone so he is the only community.
It's certainly a WARPED way of worship, but what does this character care? To him, he's worshiping what he believes Erastil really means, and everyone else in the Church is wrong!
On a side note, I have Josh Frost playing a Wizard in my upcoming Serpent's Skull campaign who is LN, but worships Lamashtu. He really doesn't go through the rights and rituals of the actual priests, he worships her simply because he admires the power she holds over monsters (he's also a Conjurer, if that helps).
When a non-cleric worships a god, I think it's really up to them to decide how that worship is done. If they were worshiping a god according to all the normal rights and rituals, well, they probably would be a Cleric, or at least a closer member of the clergy. You could pay lip service to a god but still 'worship' them in your own mind.
I do agree that said worshiper wouldn't get any real mechanical benefit out of it though.
If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.
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If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.
I was responding to it within Golarion as well. There's nothing that says someone can't call himself a worshiper of whatever religion, despite obviously not being. And there's nothing to say that a person can even truly believe the lie. Misguidance, insanity, they're as much a part of Golarion as any other campaign setting.
I was responding to it within Golarion as well. There's nothing that says someone can't call himself a worshiper of whatever religion, despite obviously not being. And there's nothing to say that a person can even truly believe the lie. Misguidance, insanity, they're as much a part of Golarion as any other campaign setting.
If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.
I think this is supposed to be about divine casters, and their worship of deities as it relates to their access to spells and powers granted by them.
Sure, a CE cleric could follow Sarenrae...but she wouldn't give him any spells. He can truly believe, misguided or no, but no spell lovin from Sarenrae.|
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I was responding to it within Golarion as well. There's nothing that says someone can't call himself a worshiper of whatever religion, despite obviously not being. And there's nothing to say that a person can even truly believe the lie. Misguidance, insanity, they're as much a part of Golarion as any other campaign setting.
If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.
I think this is supposed to be about divine casters, and their worship of deities as it relates to their access to spells and powers granted by them.
Sure, a CE cleric could follow Sarenrae...but she wouldn't give him any spells. He can truly believe, misguided or no, but no spell lovin from Sarenrae.
Actually, the example in question was "Say a person was originally raised to worship Erastil (for example), but due to a traumatic experience, they strayed from the path of good. they could still worship a Good god even if they had shifted to a Neutral Evil character?"
Nothing about Clerics that I saw. I totally agree that if said person was a Cleric, they would no longer receive spells or anything.
I was responding to it within Golarion as well. There's nothing that says someone can't call himself a worshiper of whatever religion, despite obviously not being. And there's nothing to say that a person can even truly believe the lie. Misguidance, insanity, they're as much a part of Golarion as any other campaign setting.
If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.
I think this is supposed to be about divine casters, and their worship of deities as it relates to their access to spells and powers granted by them.
Sure, a CE cleric could follow Sarenrae...but she wouldn't give him any spells. He can truly believe, misguided or no, but no spell lovin from Sarenrae.
Why in the world would you think that?
From the OP:
And I don't mean just Clerics and Paladins, I mean other classes that aren't dependent on their Deity for their powers/abilities (such as a Wizard or Ranger).
It's explicitedly about everyone not cleric or paladin.
Honestly if your "worship" is so delusional that your twisting a gods teachings to be nothing more then heresy then no your not worshiping that god. Your worshiping one you made up.
If your more then one step away you just dont believe in that gods teachings. You may pry to him now and then as you do to many gods when you do something under his area of control. But he is not your chief god and ya just can't see enough in what he says to be a "worshiper"
He is simply not your god. He is A god, but not yours.
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Honestly if your "worship" is so delusional that your twisting a gods teachings to be nothing more then heresy then no your not worshiping that god. Your worshiping one you made up.
If your more then one step away you just dont believe in that gods teachings. You may pry to him now and then as you do to many gods when you do something under his area of control. But he is not your chief god and ya just can't see enough in what he says to be a "worshiper"
He is simply not your god. He is A god, but not yours.
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. What matters, and what my point was, is that the character still believes he is worshiping the same God.
Really, I think people are taking Worship to be way too strict of a word. Worship is simple. It means: reverent honor and homage paid to god or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
There's nothing about following the correct teachings, following the proper rites, being close to the God in purpose. Anyone can worship anything. In game, a Cleric will only get mechanical benefit if they're within one step of the God they worship, sure. That doesn't stop anyone else from worshiping whoever the heck they want.
A Chaotic Evil creature of destruction can still worship Erastil. Sure, he might see Erastil differently then the rest of us, and we are like 'wtf why is he worshiping such a good God', but that's where delusion comes in.
Similarly, Josh's character in my game chooses to worship Lamashtu, to give homage to her. Not because he shares the same alignment, or even really cares about the church. He just reveres her because of her ultimate power over the monsters of the world.
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If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.
Actually, I was responding to how it should work in ALL settings.
One of my greatest pet peeves is when players try to "game the alignment system." I would, frankly, categorize a lawful neutral worshiper of Lamashtu as a maniac or insane person. If said worshiper wasn't doing things to promote chaos or evil, Lamashtu or her minions would eventually come after that character for, effectively, blaspheming against the faith. At the same time, good or lawful religions who found out that the character worshiped Lamashtu would not trust the character and would treat them as an eccentric who probably can't be trusted at best and as a dangerous menace at worst.
In other words, players can pick their alignments, but then they need to earn the rights to keep that alignment and/or roleplay in a way that justifies their choice. In the case of a lawful neutral wizard who choses to worship Lamashtu, I would warn the player that his alignment WILL start slipping toward chaotic (not evil, unless the character starts actually doing evil stuff—the "I worship Lamashtu but am lawful is a chaotic enough act to start the alignment slip in the law-chaos direction though) unless he starts playing the character in a way that his alignment implies. Of course, in the case of a wizard, alignment doesn't matter, LN or CN or whatever. In that case, if the player continues to maintain that he's LN, he's just being disruptive.
Frankly, once the GM says something like "it's okay for a worshiper of a demon to be non chaotic and non evil," the alignment system is no longer being used and you're probably best off just abandoning the system entirely.
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Let me add: Abandoning the alignment system isn't all that terrible of an idea, especially if you have a group that's having troubles with it or seems to be interested in using it as a weird way to play against the rules. I'm not saying that it's wrong or bad to run a game or a character who purports to be a demon worshiper but otherwise acts very law-abiding (although the fact that demon worship is probably illegal in most locations makes even that a bit... weird), but that if you DO want to run that game and you DON'T want to record that character's alignment properly, then the alignment system isn't doing its job for your game and therefore there's no reason to keep it around.
I was responding to it within Golarion as well. There's nothing that says someone can't call himself a worshiper of whatever religion, despite obviously not being. And there's nothing to say that a person can even truly believe the lie. Misguidance, insanity, they're as much a part of Golarion as any other campaign setting.
If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.
I think this is supposed to be about divine casters, and their worship of deities as it relates to their access to spells and powers granted by them.
Sure, a CE cleric could follow Sarenrae...but she wouldn't give him any spells. He can truly believe, misguided or no, but no spell lovin from Sarenrae.Why in the world would you think that?
From the OP:
It's explicitedly about everyone not cleric or paladin.
And I don't mean just Clerics and Paladins, I mean other classes that aren't dependent on their Deity for their powers/abilities (such as a Wizard or Ranger).
This is me TOTALLY missing the point of the OP.
Sorry ya'll :$|
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So under your interpretation, if I created a .. lets say CG fighter to take magical gifts out of the equation .. who worshiped all of the gods (they are all real gods, with real effects on the world), you would suggest that all of the gods he worshiped more than 1 alignment away from him would see him as insane, or want him dead? That just doesn't make sense to me. There were many cultures in history that worshiped both gods of life, and gods of death... gods of beauty and gods of destruction. Evil gods, and good gods can and do co-exist in cultures that are polytheistic, and just because 1 person is good, or evil, lawful, or chaotic, doesn't mean that they can't worship whom they choose without being branded insane.
Nope; a CG pantheistic fighter who worshiped all the gods would remain chaotic good. He worships all the gods, after all, so that's a net "wash" when it comes to any one specific devotion to any one deity. His acts would obviously most please chaotic good deities, but as long as he played his character as a chaotic good character, no problems. In this case, the character's religion TRULY has no impact on his alignment.
It's only if he chooses to worship a specific single deity (or a specific class of deity, such as "demon lord," that is strongly tied to and exemplifies an alignment) that the character's alignment might end up switching. When you choose to focus on ANY one thing, be it a deity or a type of spell or a weapon fighting style or whatever, you end up getting "better" at that focus. In the case of spells and weapons, that manifests as bonuses to attacks or whatever. In the case of intangibles like worship and faith, that manifests as alignment shifts.
If you worship a pantheon, you are not focusing worship on a single faith or philosophy, and therefore your alignment is unaffected. Unless, of course, your method of worship hinges on specific acts that you've decided to take, but even then it's your own choice and not your faith that might impact alignment.
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If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.Actually, I was responding to how it should work in ALL settings.
One of my greatest pet peeves is when players try to "game the alignment system." I would, frankly, categorize a lawful neutral worshiper of Lamashtu as a maniac or insane person. If said worshiper wasn't doing things to promote chaos or evil, Lamashtu or her minions would eventually come after that character for, effectively, blaspheming against the faith. At the same time, good or lawful religions who found out that the character worshiped Lamashtu would not trust the character and would treat them as an eccentric who probably can't be trusted at best and as a dangerous menace at worst.
In other words, players can pick their alignments, but then they need to earn the rights to keep that alignment and/or roleplay in a way that justifies their choice. In the case of a lawful neutral wizard who choses to worship Lamashtu, I would warn the player that his alignment WILL start slipping toward chaotic (not evil, unless the character starts actually doing evil stuff—the "I worship Lamashtu but am lawful is a chaotic enough act to start the alignment slip in the law-chaos direction though) unless he starts playing the character in a way that his alignment implies. Of course, in the case of a wizard, alignment doesn't matter, LN or CN or whatever. In that case, if the player continues to maintain that he's LN, he's just being disruptive.
Frankly, once the GM says something like "it's okay for a worshiper of a demon to be non chaotic and non evil," the alignment system is no longer being used and you're probably best off just abandoning the system entirely.
I agree with some of this. The parts about good and lawful religions treating the person as an eccentric or dangerous, sure, totally. But the part about Lamashtu's faithful coming for him if he doesn't spread chaos and evil? I don't see it.
Worship is simply reverent homage. To venerate a deity, to regard them in a high light. Who cares if Lamashtu is a demon? This one character, not really good or evil, has a high respect for a demon that has such a mastery over monsters. He prays to her to bless his summons each day, maybe he prays for more understanding of monsters.
Will this worship slowly make him into a person more like Lamashtu? Maybe. Will he later abandon his worship when he sees how much of a horrible force Lamashtu is? Maybe.
I just don't see how it means the alignment system is being 'abandoned' simply because this kind of character can exist. And of course, my constant point: characters do NOT always know the alignment of their gods. To assume that all characters do is, I think, the most 'gamey' you can get. Sure, this one is a wizard, he probably knows exactly what Lamashtu is. But what about someone that just grows up in a small village, beset by monsters? He hears about some Goddess called Lamashtu from his town's shaman that holds power over these things. He decides to start praying to Lamashtu to help against these beasts.
He's worshiping her. It's not going to do him any good, and it might even make Lamashtu send more monster attacks. But it's certainly feasible.
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*eyetwitch* I should stop reading, but I just can't seem to...
Haha, I'm the same when it comes to posting on this. ;) I guess it's one of the issues I just don't seem to understand why people are so "no, you can't" on.
I was always a big fan of the idea that someone could only hear about a certain aspect of a god, good or evil, and choose to worship that god solely for that aspect. Maybe he learns of his ignorance later and changes his mind, maybe he stays ignorant forever. He could still be whatever alignment he is, and just be ignorant of the alignment the god is.
Unless the god is taking an active hand in things, I don't see how an LG guy that ignorantly chooses to worship an evil deity would have his alignment change.
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I agree with some of this. The parts about good and lawful religions treating the person as an eccentric or dangerous, sure, totally. But the part about Lamashtu's faithful coming for him if he doesn't spread chaos and evil? I don't see it.
Worship is simply reverent homage. To venerate a deity, to regard them in a high light. Who cares if Lamashtu is a demon? This one character, not really good or evil, has a high respect for a demon that has such a mastery over monsters. He prays to her to bless his summons each day, maybe he prays for more understanding of monsters.Will this worship slowly make him into a person more like Lamashtu? Maybe. Will he later abandon his worship when he sees how much of a horrible force Lamashtu is? Maybe.
I just don't see how it means the alignment system is being 'abandoned' simply because this kind of character can exist. And of course, my constant point: characters do NOT always know the alignment of their gods. To assume that all characters do is, I think, the most 'gamey' you can get. Sure, this one is a wizard, he probably knows exactly what Lamashtu is. But what about someone that just grows up in a small village, beset by monsters? He hears about some Goddess called Lamashtu from his town's shaman that holds power over these things. He decides to start praying to Lamashtu to help against these beasts.
He's worshiping her. It's not going to do him any good, and it might even make Lamashtu send more monster attacks. But it's certainly feasible.
Well, if there's no repercussion about his choice to be Lawful Neutral AND worship the boss demon, then why use alignments in the first place? And I'm certainly not saying a character like that can't exist... just that such a character feels more like he's being chaotic neutral. It basically just comes down to alignment interpretations, I guess.
A lawful neutral worshiper of Lamashtu just doesn't make any sense to me, to be honest. It lessens what it is to be a Lamashtu worshiper AND what it is to be lawful neutral, and it kind of smacks of a player just trying to be disruptive. If it doesn't bother you, though, all is well and good. :-)
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*eyetwitch* I should stop reading, but I just can't seem to...Haha, I'm the same when it comes to posting on this. ;) I guess it's one of the issues I just don't seem to understand why people are so "no, you can't" on.
I was always a big fan of the idea that someone could only hear about a certain aspect of a god, good or evil, and choose to worship that god solely for that aspect. Maybe he learns of his ignorance later and changes his mind, maybe he stays ignorant forever. He could still be whatever alignment he is, and just be ignorant of the alignment the god is.
Unless the god is taking an active hand in things, I don't see how an LG guy that ignorantly chooses to worship an evil deity would have his alignment change.
At which point I ask again... if there aren't repercussions (by which I mean nothing more than a shift in a character's alignment) on a character's alignment when he does things out of alignment with his alignment... why use the alignment rules at all?
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At which point I ask again... if there aren't repercussions (by which I mean nothing more than a shift in a character's alignment) on a character's alignment when he does things out of alignment with his alignment... why use the alignment rules at all?*eyetwitch* I should stop reading, but I just can't seem to...Haha, I'm the same when it comes to posting on this. ;) I guess it's one of the issues I just don't seem to understand why people are so "no, you can't" on.
I was always a big fan of the idea that someone could only hear about a certain aspect of a god, good or evil, and choose to worship that god solely for that aspect. Maybe he learns of his ignorance later and changes his mind, maybe he stays ignorant forever. He could still be whatever alignment he is, and just be ignorant of the alignment the god is.
Unless the god is taking an active hand in things, I don't see how an LG guy that ignorantly chooses to worship an evil deity would have his alignment change.
Because I really do like the rules, and I think a person *could* remain Lawful and Neutral while worshiping something so far away as Lamashtu. It's like a Lawful Good fighter worshiping Gorum. Why can't a person remain a good person that obeys the laws while still worshiping a Chaotic Neutral deity? All the fighter cares about is that Gorum is the Lord of Battle, similar to Lamashtu being the Master of Monsters.
I'm not tossing the alignment system out the window, I still expect the Fighter to be a good guy, honorable, obey the laws, whatever. But if he wants to pray to Gorum for victory in battle against whatever evil forces he fight, then why is that bad? How is that ignoring the alignment rules?
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Further comparasion.
In my mind, someone who says "I worship Lamashtu but am Lawful neutral" makes no sense in the same way this statement would: "I fight with swords but only throw them, and I call them spears."
Upon further reflection, I think the MAIN disconnect for me is "worship." That word implies that you build your life around what you worship; that that object or ideal is a foundation of everything you are. I guess I can't really imagine someone devoting their life to something that they fundamentally believe the opposite of.
Further comparasion.
In my mind, someone who says "I worship Lamashtu but am Lawful neutral" makes no sense in the same way this statement would: "I fight with swords but only throw them, and I call them spears."
Upon further reflection, I think the MAIN disconnect for me is "worship." That word implies that you build your life around what you worship; that that object or ideal is a foundation of everything you are. I guess I can't really imagine someone devoting their life to something that they fundamentally believe the opposite of.
Maybe venerate is a better word?
Worship to me implys involvement in the church, which is going to involve rituals he may find contrary to his outlook on life.|
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I think that's the crux of it, really. That damn word. :) From what I can understand by just reading the dictionary, to worship is to give reverent honor and homage to a god. Revering is just to regard with respect and awe. That's how I understand the words.
So in my second example, ignoring extremes like Lamasthu. We have a good guy. A warrior. He obeys the laws, is honorable, and likes to do right. He tries to protect his village from monsters and is out fighting on a weekly basis. He chooses to worship Gorum, lord of battle, and prays to him daily for success at fighting these things. Why Gorum? All he knows is that when it comes to fighting and combat, Gorum is king. So it makes the most sense.
Does this not make him LG anymore? Is Gorum going to send his church to hunt this guy down? :)
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Because I really do like the rules, and I think a person *could* remain Lawful and Neutral while worshiping something so far away as Lamashtu. It's like a Lawful Good fighter worshiping Gorum. Why can't a person remain a good person that obeys the laws while still worshiping a Chaotic Neutral deity? All the fighter cares about is that Gorum is the Lord of Battle, similar to Lamashtu being the Master of Monsters.
I'm not tossing the alignment system out the window, I still expect the Fighter to be a good guy, honorable, obey the laws, whatever. But if he wants to pray to Gorum for victory in battle against whatever evil forces he fight, then why is that bad? How is that ignoring the alignment rules?
Well... I would say that a fighter who wants to worship Gorum probably SHOULDN'T be lawful. There's plenty of more appropriate choices. A person can't remain lawful and good by obeying the teachings of a chaotic neutral deity simply because what a chaotic neutral deity wants you to do are chaotic neutral acts. You can't get better at lawful good by being chaotic neutral.
I guess what I'm wondering is, if a fighter is a lawful good guy, why would he WANT to pray to a god that flaunts law and revels in war?
Anyway... I've pretty much said what I need to say. Internet alignment arguments don't really ever go anywhere. The only REAL person you need to ask about alignment issues is your GM, after all.
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I guess what I'm wondering is, if a fighter is a lawful good guy, why would he WANT to pray to a god that flaunts law and revels in war?Because I really do like the rules, and I think a person *could* remain Lawful and Neutral while worshiping something so far away as Lamashtu. It's like a Lawful Good fighter worshiping Gorum. Why can't a person remain a good person that obeys the laws while still worshiping a Chaotic Neutral deity? All the fighter cares about is that Gorum is the Lord of Battle, similar to Lamashtu being the Master of Monsters.
I'm not tossing the alignment system out the window, I still expect the Fighter to be a good guy, honorable, obey the laws, whatever. But if he wants to pray to Gorum for victory in battle against whatever evil forces he fight, then why is that bad? How is that ignoring the alignment rules?
That's easy, because he doesn't really know. People are simple. You could grow up your whole life thinking one thing about a large subject and remain ignorant. In this case, we have a good guy who's constantly fighting to protect those he loves. Maybe a different god WOULD be a better choice. Who says he knows of them? The only god he knows is the one he was told handled combat. Gorum.
Torag would likely be a better choice. But unless someone mentions it to him, why would he switch?
I think that it's perfectly reasonable to not assume everyone has heard of every god, and that of those gods they know, they might not know everything about them. :)
Of course I agree with you, someone can't obey the teachings and learnings of a God while remaining so far apart in alignment. But just because you worship someone doesn't mean you obey the teachings and learnings. I know plenty of people in this world that worship one religion or another while ignoring plenty of the church's teachings. ;)
Thanks though for responding so much James, I always appreciate it.
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I think that's the crux of it, really. That damn word. :) From what I can understand by just reading the dictionary, to worship is to give reverent honor and homage to a god. Revering is just to regard with respect and awe. That's how I understand the words.
So in my second example, ignoring extremes like Lamasthu. We have a good guy. A warrior. He obeys the laws, is honorable, and likes to do right. He tries to protect his village from monsters and is out fighting on a weekly basis. He chooses to worship Gorum, lord of battle, and prays to him daily for success at fighting these things. Why Gorum? All he knows is that when it comes to fighting and combat, Gorum is king. So it makes the most sense.
Does this not make him LG anymore? Is Gorum going to send his church to hunt this guy down? :)
Gorum won't send his church, I don't think... but that doesn't mean that if the church finds out a knight in shining armor is saving babies and bringing peace to the land that they won't be scandalized to hear that he's saying things like "It was only by Gorum's strength that I managed to bring a lasting peace to this land and wiped out barbarisim for good." That's gonna rile up enough of the church that there should be repercussions. And frankly, repercussions like that can be quite fun in the game. If a player specifically chooses to worship/venerate/honor a deity in a non-standard way, he'll be STOKED to be able to interact with that faith's worshipers, I would think. Either because that gives him a chance to try to spread his heresies or to prove his convictions.
But yeah... what happens when the lawful good dude who publicly thanks Gorum for inspiring his heroics inspires a bunch of idolizer youth to seek out a temple of Gorum to do the same, but they lack that character's unusual vision and are brought up and trained to become warmongers who revel in the chaotic neutral? There's ALL SORTS of very interesting repercussions, is what I'm saying. If a lawful good dude found out he'd inspired local youth to worship Gorum and they became barbaric reavers, he'd have to do some serious soul searching. If his player did NOT... I'd say "well then, that means you're now neutral."
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Creative Director
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The example of someone not knowing any other recourse is a really interesting idea. A young lad who grows up in a hardline Gorum worshiping tribe who wonders if there's more to life than being chaotic neutral is a GREAT idea for a character. I would certainly say such a character is lawful good (or whatever), and would take all the chances I could to put him in situations where he'd have to choose between what's "right for him" (aka, the lawful good act) and what's "right" by the church. Eventually, these contradictions SHOULD push the character to seek other answers—this is a really cool reason for such a character to become an adventurer, and in time he'll probably encounter the faith of Torag or something, at which point the discovery of a more aligned faith or belief can be a really fun and cool bit of character development.
But yeah... it's the word "worship" that's at the root of all this, I think.
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I think that's the crux of it, really. That damn word. :) From what I can understand by just reading the dictionary, to worship is to give reverent honor and homage to a god. Revering is just to regard with respect and awe. That's how I understand the words.
So in my second example, ignoring extremes like Lamasthu. We have a good guy. A warrior. He obeys the laws, is honorable, and likes to do right. He tries to protect his village from monsters and is out fighting on a weekly basis. He chooses to worship Gorum, lord of battle, and prays to him daily for success at fighting these things. Why Gorum? All he knows is that when it comes to fighting and combat, Gorum is king. So it makes the most sense.
Does this not make him LG anymore? Is Gorum going to send his church to hunt this guy down? :)
Gorum won't send his church, I don't think... but that doesn't mean that if the church finds out a knight in shining armor is saving babies and bringing peace to the land that they won't be scandalized to hear that he's saying things like "It was only by Gorum's strength that I managed to bring a lasting peace to this land and wiped out barbarisim for good." That's gonna rile up enough of the church that there should be repercussions. And frankly, repercussions like that can be quite fun in the game. If a player specifically chooses to worship/venerate/honor a deity in a non-standard way, he'll be STOKED to be able to interact with that faith's worshipers, I would think. Either because that gives him a chance to try to spread his heresies or to prove his convictions.
But yeah... what happens when the lawful good dude who publicly thanks Gorum for inspiring his heroics inspires a bunch of idolizer youth to seek out a temple of Gorum to do the same, but they lack that character's unusual vision and are brought up and trained to become warmongers who revel in the chaotic neutral? There's ALL SORTS of very interesting repercussions, is what I'm saying. If a lawful good dude found out he'd...
I pretty much agree with all of you just said. My entire point is very simple. Based on upbringing, information of a god, and viewpoint, I think it's entirely possible for a person of any alignment to worship any other god. It may be a short lived worship, it may shift their alignment later, it may have strong repercussions. As you said, that makes the story fun!
But starting out, I don't think it means instant insanity or anything. :)
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The example of someone not knowing any other recourse is a really interesting idea. A young lad who grows up in a hardline Gorum worshiping tribe who wonders if there's more to life than being chaotic neutral is a GREAT idea for a character. I would certainly say such a character is lawful good (or whatever), and would take all the chances I could to put him in situations where he'd have to choose between what's "right for him" (aka, the lawful good act) and what's "right" by the church. Eventually, these contradictions SHOULD push the character to seek other answers—this is a really cool reason for such a character to become an adventurer, and in time he'll probably encounter the faith of Torag or something, at which point the discovery of a more aligned faith or belief can be a really fun and cool bit of character development.
But yeah... it's the word "worship" that's at the root of all this, I think.
Again, I couldn't agree with you more. I love the opportunity for story this brings up.
Especially, in my current game, when it comes to Mark's character. Poor Mark. A simple paladin with a party that involves an assassin-aspiring Rogue, a wizard that has a strange adoration of Lamashtu, and an Asmodean priest.
Poor, poor Mark.
If it is your home-brew setting, sure, you could rule that way as GM. But I think James was answering how this would work in his setting, Golarion, despite the thread not being in the Campaign Setting forum.*lots of good stuff*
James,
This is one of the reasons I like the Pathfinder system and Paizo so much. The fact that the company owners and game designers come onto the forums regularly and are willing to have these kinds of in-depth discussions about their product and how they believe things work, and without sounding condescending, is a very good thing.
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Wow, ok... Thread explosion...
I guess my choice of wording has really caused quite the debate over all this. Sorry 'bout that...
I guess what I was getting at, was that this character (A Ranger) was raised to pay his respects and give praise to any/all gods, goddesses, and spirits of nature and the wild, not just Erastil. He used to be Neutral on the side of Neutral Good, but events in his life lead him to banditry and bounty hunting (after narrowly escaping execution for the banditry and fleeing to another kingdom).
He's not particularly religious, though he is fairly superstitious and might utter praises or thanks to the deities for various bits of luck, etc.
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Creative Director
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Gorum won't send his church, I don't think... but that doesn't mean that if the church finds out a knight in shining armor is saving babies and bringing peace to the land that they won't be scandalized to hear that he's saying things like "It was only by Gorum's strength that I managed to bring a lasting peace to this land and wiped out barbarisim for good."True, but why does Gorum care? Gorum cares not why the battles are oguht, only that they are fought. Very egalitarian, that way. As long as the Fighter continues to seek out new battles against evil, rather than hanging around to enjoy the peace, I don't actually see Gorum as having a major problem with this.
Gorum probably WOULDN'T care, unless the PC managed to start converting lots of Gorum worshipers away from their chaotic neutral ways.
But Gorum's church is another matter. They don't just follow the god's words—they're free to react to the world however they want.
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Creative Director
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Wow, ok... Thread explosion...
I guess my choice of wording has really caused quite the debate over all this. Sorry 'bout that...
I guess what I was getting at, was that this character (A Ranger) was raised to pay his respects and give praise to any/all gods, goddesses, and spirits of nature and the wild, not just Erastil. He used to be Neutral on the side of Neutral Good, but events in his life lead him to banditry and bounty hunting (after narrowly escaping execution for the banditry and fleeing to another kingdom).
He's not particularly religious, though he is fairly superstitious and might utter praises or thanks to the deities for various bits of luck, etc.
That sounds like a cool character. Not being particularly religious helps to distance himself from the gods, of course, and if he's superstitious and worries that Erastil might come punish him, I could see him offering sacrifices or prayers to Erastil now and then in fear but still being neutral or even neutral evil.
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That sounds like a cool character. Not being particularly religious helps to distance himself from the gods, of course, and if he's superstitious and worries that Erastil might come punish him, I could see him offering sacrifices or prayers to Erastil now and then in fear but still being neutral or even neutral evil.
In all honesty, the Ranger does his damnedest not to piss off any of the gods. He may attack and rob a traveler but he wouldn't do so to a priest or cleric and he'd never steal from or desecrate a temple or shrine without a damn good reason with the exception of those that threaten or destroy nature (wild lands, animals, plants, etc). About all he holds sacred are the various plants and animals that can be found out in the untamed wilds.
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He also reaaaallllyyyy hates the undead and the Necromancers that would raise those who've passed on back from the grave (He's also not fond of resurrections, but they're not quite as bad as raising undead). It messes with the natural cycle of life and death.
Another question on the subject of worship; if he gave praise to a god of an alignment opposed to him on the good/evil scale, would he be able to use spells such as Deadeye's Arrow or no, because he is - in fact - evil and does commit evil acts (such as torturing bandits captured to try to get information out of them)?