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I've been GMing for 18 long years. In my recent Kingmaker game, one of my players refuses to take part in any combat encounters. When combat breaks out, he retreats and tries to flat out leave the area. The other players are getting pissed because he's not helping out in the combats but he still thinks he deserves EXP and Treasure. Last time, I had enough of it, and decided to not award him any EXP for the combat encounter. At which point he crossed his arms and plainly said he didn't care.
He loves to be the "self-proclaimed" leader when Roleplaying encounters happen, and just refuses to participate in the game otherwise. I've spoken to him about this, and the other players have expressed displeasure at how he abandons them during combat. For the record, he's playing a LN Monk.
How would you handle this situation?
I'd encourage the other players to discuss his choice to keep out of combat with him. Division of treasure is their call, not the GM's.
As far as experience points go, I'd discuss that with him. If his character meaningfully aids the party to achieve victory, he has some coming. If not, he doesn't have anything coming.
What is his reason for dodging the fights? Does he feel that the others are provoking battles when his "Mr. Roleplay" PC would have avoided them through diplomacy or other skills?
I've been GMing for 18 long years. In my recent Kingmaker game, one of my players refuses to take part in any combat encounters. When combat breaks out, he retreats and tries to flat out leave the area. The other players are getting pissed because he's not helping out in the combats but he still thinks he deserves EXP and Treasure. Last time, I had enough of it, and decided to not award him any EXP for the combat encounter. At which point he crossed his arms and plainly said he didn't care.
He loves to be the "self-proclaimed" leader when Roleplaying encounters happen, and just refuses to participate in the game otherwise. I've spoken to him about this, and the other players have expressed displeasure at how he abandons them during combat. For the record, he's playing a LN Monk.
How would you handle this situation?
Rambling follows:
Why is he not cooperating, from a player and PC point of view? I would treat him like a hand maiden if I were a party member. If he tried to speak, as a player, I would just tell the NPC to ignore the "butler". I can also be jerk as a player so I am not suggesting that. I would continue on the no XP route, and let the character die off. I see no reason to give him treasure if he wont use it. If the abandoned me I would kick him out of the party, in game, in the hopes that it would keep me from having to do so out of game.PS: The first sentence is the most important one most likely
What it sounds like to me is that you have a roleplaying player who made up a roleplaying character who would like, both IC and OOC, to parley and deal with situations diplomatically rather than fight. OTOH, it sounds like the rest of the players are hack-and-slash types who when they come to a possible opponent run in and attack without giving a chance to roleplay or do anything diplomatically.
The roleplaying character then leaves, both because he finds their actions IC dishonorable (LN will have a big problem with this) and the other players jumping the gun OOC to be annoying, because by whoever the initiative monster is (obviously not the monk) choosing to attack first, he's decided for the rest of the players what the strategy is going to be.
This is a situation where you need to sit down all your players OOC to talk about what they want and how they want to do things and then have them work out a way to get a group of characters who not only they all want to play but who also work together as a team.
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I've spoken to him about this, and the other players have expressed displeasure at how he abandons them during combat. For the record, he's playing a LN Monk.
What is his response?
Has he given reasons why he acts this way, either in character or out? For example, has he stated that he has made a particular choice to play a pacifist, or a coward?
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This guy does this in every game he plays. He always plays his characters as these flighty, lone wolf, play by his own rules, characters. We've talked about this before as well, and no conclusion can be reached. Outside of the game, he's everyones friend, so I supposed I'll just continue along with the way I've handled it. No EXP for not helping at all during battle. Maybe he'll start to figure out whats what when he starts lagging behind on the EXP.
This guy does this in every game he plays. He always plays his characters as these flighty, lone wolf, play by his own rules, characters. We've talked about this before as well, and no conclusion can be reached. Outside of the game, he's everyones friend, so I supposed I'll just continue along with the way I've handled it. No EXP for not helping at all during battle. Maybe he'll start to figure out whats what when he starts lagging behind on the EXP.
It seems you have an attention diva. When he realizes you don't get something for doing nothing maybe he will come around.
Well, lone-wolfism is a general RP problem, usually encountered in my experience with players who get too much into the romanticism of certain anime characters. And while that's fine for certain stories or solo adventures, it's a big trouble with any group adventures and with more than a few plots.
I'd say what you need to do is sit down the player and ask him bluntly if there's any character type he'd be interested in playing who's not a lone wolf or some other variety of diva.
Then come up with an explanation for the party that they ditched the uncooperative monk at the last bus stop and picked up this new adventurer at the adventurers tavern.
Let the player roll their full XP over to the new character, but tell the player that's the end of it and they're on their own to keep up XP-wise from there on.
It`s obvious there`s a disconnect between what people want out of the game.
I WOULD like to hear more of what the player tells you when you have these chats... you don`t really get into that.
But I can compare this to friends I know who similarly have very idiosyncratic/personal aims for roleplaying their character the ways they do. If going into the game where you expect the PCs to all fit certain mold(s) (which can be as simple as action-orientated, wanting to fill the hero/amoral adventurer role) that is just going to clash alot of the time.
I think it`s highly likely that the player won`t care per se about missing out on loot and XP. Interpersonal conflict with you and the group about his character IS probably going to be negatively percieved by him (again, it`d be nice to hear what his feedback to you was).
If he`s 100 percent set on playing this character type, I think you and the group should think about how such a character could fit in the game. Such a character isn`t doing the same thing other PCs are assumed to be doing. As said, they could be seen as a butler, or like an NPC Noble following the party around for some reason (any number of adventures have a hapless NPC effectively in the care of the PCs. if that is bearable, this situation at least theoretically should be as well).
They may not see the character as an equal in combat power, etc, but unless they are the utter min-max sociopath type, they can still relate socially and so forth to the character. Think of in-story reasons why they might associate with the type of character the `problem player` is playing... it can be anything really. Somebody said such a character would be belittled when they tried to speak, but that is really a narrow perspective. the other PCs certainly CAN give `short shrift` to the problem PC when the situation calls for it, but realistically their PCs simply wouldn`t stick around a character who truly is so problematic. So if they are sticking around, they should be able to get along reasonably well most of the time.
I can see for alot of groups that doing so would be besides the point, because the fun is in playing with other who have all accepted the same premise, i.e. super hero fantasy adventurers who act the role and tactically apply their powers as need be. Given it sounds like you`re all friends outside the game and don`t have any other problems going, I`d think you`d like to make this work any way possible... so having the `passive` character be recognized as more of a story element than tactical element seems one option.
Again, hearing more of what the player himself said to you would help.
Suggest that he plays a Enchanter or other character type that can act cowardly and force enemies to become his friend (thus RPable).
Alternatively: just let him be. If he's having fun, then let him. Balance the encounters for N-1 participants. I'd even just give him the XP, because why not? As for treasure: that's something to be RPed in-game, not dictated by GM.
How much is he really upsetting the other characters? Do they enjoy ribbing him? Or is he actually harming their fun?
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I think you've hit on how to deal with him... just let him do what he does and don't reward him for the things he won't participate in.
For your other players, simply figure on combat scenes being short one player and don't penalize them for it. If you're creating encounters for them, adjust them for the lack of one player.
Have the party fire the character. "Sorry mate but we signed you on to perform certain duties you have failed to comply with your contract, we no longer require your services. Your non action is placing our lives at risk and we will be looking to hire a more supportive party member". This is what my party would do....
Also when you are fighting a large mob if sombody cuts and runs and seperates themselves from the saftey of the group - I would have members of the mob go after the easy kill. Its what lions and wolves do, they harras herd until one of the herd is separated and while some of the pack/pride prevent the herd rescuing its isolated member the other predators take it down.
I've been GMing for 18 long years. In my recent Kingmaker game, one of my players refuses to take part in any combat encounters. When combat breaks out, he retreats and tries to flat out leave the area. The other players are getting pissed because he's not helping out in the combats but he still thinks he deserves EXP and Treasure. Last time, I had enough of it, and decided to not award him any EXP for the combat encounter. At which point he crossed his arms and plainly said he didn't care.
He loves to be the "self-proclaimed" leader when Roleplaying encounters happen, and just refuses to participate in the game otherwise. I've spoken to him about this, and the other players have expressed displeasure at how he abandons them during combat. For the record, he's playing a LN Monk.
How would you handle this situation?
Backing-up Wraithstrike's suggestion here. Do you know *why* he does that? Giving the player the benefit of doubt, there might be a legitimate reason behind his behavior.
Having the player lag behind in XPs (or any other mechanical "punishment") isn't encourage him to participate in battle more, on the contrary, its a spiraling descent toward isolation from other PCs. I suspect there's something more behind it. In my experience, trouble around the gaming table always result of another, bigger issue outside the gaming world altogether.
Its worth repeating; behavioral issues experienced in the game cannot be fixed *in* the game, with the game.
'findel
It's not beyond the scope of possibility for frustartion to turn into action:
Let the characters turn on his. Let them jump him and take his stuff, and leave him with enough rations to get to a local town, saying "Next time, maybe you'll understand what being part of an team is..."
Maybe they catch him, maybe they don't. He won't come back.
RP killed the drama whore.
Wasn't a similar situation handled in "Order of the Stick" with Belkar?
This guy does this in every game he plays. He always plays his characters as these flighty, lone wolf, play by his own rules, characters. We've talked about this before as well, and no conclusion can be reached. Outside of the game, he's everyones friend, so I supposed I'll just continue along with the way I've handled it. No EXP for not helping at all during battle. Maybe he'll start to figure out whats what when he starts lagging behind on the EXP.
Many years ago, I gamed with a guy who trashed every game he participated in. He wasn't a bad guy, but he craved center stage: His preferred approach was to make characters that derailed the plot and theme of any planned adventure. As an example, when told to make a Call of Cthulhu character to attend a posh upper-class auction, he made an unwashed, machine-gun toting anarchist. An eerie, viking-themed horror scenario elicited a Native American warrior he named "Richard Nixon".
Eventually I had to just stop gaming with him. He was a good friend, but a problem in any gaming group.
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It`s obvious there`s a disconnect between what people want out of the game.
I WOULD like to hear more of what the player tells you when you have these chats... you don`t really get into that.
We've been playing with this guy on and off for about 5 years now. What he says is that, he didn't realize that he's being a problem (which is BS because the other players let him know how they feel) and he offers to ease up and join in. A few encounters later, he's right back to his old self again. He always makes characters that go out of their way to NOT mesh with the group. If I were running a Fantastic Four adventure, he'd want to play Batman. If I were running a Batman family adventure (Batman, Robin, Batgirl, etc) he'd want to play Superman. I think I'll just let him do whatever the hell he wants to do, and when the players get tired and gank him, its his fault. I'm tired of dealing with him anyway.
Throw the bum out.
I think I'll just let him do whatever the hell he wants to do, and when the players get tired and gank him, its his fault. I'm tired of dealing with him anyway.
As the DM, YOU are the captian of this ship. Talk to the guy, boot him out if you have to, but don't wait for the muntiny. Better "a bit awkward now" than "really ugly later".
'findel
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Thanks for the input everyone. After talking it over with the other players individually, I've decided to give him his last chance this weekend. If things continue as they are this weekend's session, he's out. I'm letting him know he's "on probation" so to speak. So I guess its really, "one more time" and he's out.
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"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few" is how I go about problems with in the group.
Your lucky, in my time running games (since about 2004) we've kicked out four people. All were people who were not being the best of friends outside of game, which made removing them slightly easier.
One talked a lot of s$+# outside of game behind our backs about us(he was already a s##!ty friend that no one wanted to hang out with outside of game).
The second, we think was off his meds, and we felt that he might physically harm one of us.
The third was a bit of a creep. Non of our female players wanted him around and he never meshed with us as friends.
The four, and the hardest, we kicked out cause he DID attack his sister(one of our players and good friends). We lost a second player cause he took the brothers side and lost the sister who moved back east with family to get her life straightened up.
So having player's only problem is being bad at making and playing good characters is a pretty mild problem to have.
If he messes ups some more, dump him. You got to think about what makes the group as a whole happy. The fastest way to disintegrate a gaming group is letting disruptive force like the four I mention above, and your lone wolf player, around.
I have played many characters what weren't good in combat. When you play such a character and your character falls unconscious or is otherwise useless in combat you may try to avoid combat (Especially if the other players make fun of how bad your character is in combat.) No one wants there character to die. No character should be useless in combat.
If, however, your character is very good in combat(comparable to the other players) and you avoid combat then your being detrimental to the party and you shouldn't get Exp.
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"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few" is how I go about problems with in the group.
Your lucky, in my time running games (since about 2004) we've kicked out four people. All were people who were not being the best of friends outside of game, which made removing them slightly easier.
One talked a lot of s!@~ outside of game behind our backs about us(he was already a s!@~ty friend that no one wanted to hang out with outside of game).
The second, we think was off his meds, and we felt that he might physically harm one of us.
The third was a bit of a creep. Non of our female players wanted him around and he never meshed with us as friends.
The four, and the hardest, we kicked out cause he DID attack his sister(one of our players and good friends). We lost a second player cause he took the brothers side and lost the sister who moved back east with family to get her life straightened up.
So having player's only problem is being bad at making and playing good characters is a pretty mild problem to have.
If he messes ups some more, dump him. You got to think about what makes the group as a whole happy. The fastest way to disintegrate a gaming group is letting disruptive force like the four I mention above, and your lone wolf player, around.
I've had worse....
I don't think in my 30 years of gaming I've ever experienced a PC who constantly avoided combat. Sure, there are individual instances where someone wants to run away, but consistently? If it happened in one of my games I would be flabbergasted, honestly.
With our current group it would get worked out both in-character and above-board. I suspect it would be discussed by the PCs first, to understand what the character was thinking. Then, if necessary, it would be taken above board since one character is not contributing to the betterment of the party, but is still expecting to get exp and treasure? I don't see that going over well at all.
If, as you say, it has been a pattern of behavior for this player, then expect things not to go so well this weekend. Also, if he does promise to straighten up, make sure he knows there are consequences for not following through. Good luck!
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I agree with dos, make sure he knows what's up if you wish to maintaina friendship out of game. If you've talked with him before, but there've been no bad results of reverting back to uninvolved behavior, he wouldn't be wrong to feel blindsided by a "Okay, you didn't participate again this week. We don't need to see you again - ever."
I'd let him know that this is his last chance, and maybe offer him the ability to either tweak his character or replace it with a new one now the the ground rules for his participation have changed.
I've had some nasty break ups myself within a gaming group. I hope everything goes well for you!
I've been GMing for 18 long years. In my recent Kingmaker game, one of my players refuses to take part in any combat encounters. When combat breaks out, he retreats and tries to flat out leave the area. The other players are getting pissed because he's not helping out in the combats but he still thinks he deserves EXP and Treasure. Last time, I had enough of it, and decided to not award him any EXP for the combat encounter. At which point he crossed his arms and plainly said he didn't care.
He loves to be the "self-proclaimed" leader when Roleplaying encounters happen, and just refuses to participate in the game otherwise. I've spoken to him about this, and the other players have expressed displeasure at how he abandons them during combat. For the record, he's playing a LN Monk.
How would you handle this situation?
The game doesn't revolve around one player. It's a group game. Don't give him XP for not participating in combat. And the other players would be well within their rights for not letting him have a share of treasure gained from combat.
You've spoken to him and he hasn't changed. He probably won't.
He needs to do a little growing up and realize the game doesn't revolve just around him. Maybe in time he'll wake up. If not, then let him sit there and do nothing when combat starts. If the other players are upset because they _need_ his help to survive encounters, then you can give them some magic items designed specifically for them (and unusable by monks so he can't try to claim them), so that they can handle combat better without his help.
If the party needs a Monk to help them, they have much worse problems than a single non participant.
LOL.
Why exactly are the other characters putting up with this guy? He sounds more like a non-combatant NPC than a heroic PC. Which if he wants to play a non-combatant NPC I guess that's fine, but don't expect to ever advance your character except by DM fiat.
In any case, I'm curious as to what happens this weekend. Please do let us know!
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bloody historyCripes...
Dude, condolences. Seriously.
Sometime I forget how blessed I apparently am with my group.
Don't be, besides a few rotten apples over the years I've been blessed with 4 - 8 good players at any one given time, 2 or 3 of them which are excellent IMO.
I've had worse....
My condolences your way. I tell you that shook me up a bit. I don't even want to think about something worse.
This weekend's game had to be canceled. I will keep you all posted on what happens though. We're supposed to be meeting again this weekend. I'm in talks with the other players right now as well, getting a feel for what they think.
*popcorn* Darn!
If the party needs a Monk to help them, they have much worse problems than a single non participant.Awesome.
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The game doesn't revolve around one player. It's a group game. Don't give him XP for not participating in combat. And the other players would be well within their rights for not letting him have a share of treasure gained from combat.
You've spoken to him and he hasn't changed. He probably won't.
He needs to do a little growing up and realize the game doesn't revolve just around him. Maybe in time he'll wake up. If not, then let him sit there and do nothing when combat starts. If the other players are upset because they _need_ his help to survive encounters, then you can give them some magic items designed specifically for them (and unusable by monks so he can't try to claim them), so that they can handle combat better without his help.
This is probably how I'm going to go with it. Kicking him out of the group isn't really an option just yet. We'll see how it goes tonight. Hopefully he'll straighten up and fly right.
Good luck.
Hope the game goes well.
()
This guy does this in every game he plays. He always plays his characters as these flighty, lone wolf, play by his own rules, characters. We've talked about this before as well, and no conclusion can be reached. Outside of the game, he's everyones friend, so I supposed I'll just continue along with the way I've handled it. No EXP for not helping at all during battle. Maybe he'll start to figure out whats what when he starts lagging behind on the EXP.
When he splits, have him attacked by his own little encounter, one he can't run away from...in other words something as fast or faster than him...make him appreciate the rest of the party...
He didn't take a stupid vow from BoED did he?
*First, have a great session.
Now, as to the problem-player, you've been DMing for 18 years, so you're mid-30ish, right? What's the age of the player? I mean, what you describe is very immature behavior.
*note: my group (Kingmaker) won't meet till next week and I'm really eager to get back on track (we've had a bit of a hiatus due to various scheduling conflicts.)
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*First, have a great session.
Now, as to the problem-player, you've been DMing for 18 years, so you're mid-30ish, right? What's the age of the player? I mean, what you describe is very immature behavior.
*note: my group (Kingmaker) won't meet till next week and I'm really eager to get back on track (we've had a bit of a hiatus due to various scheduling conflicts.)
The player is 27. Here's a little bit about him. Mama's boy, very condesending, still lives at home, only child, etc.
I'm running Kingmaker for this group as well. And the last thing I'm gonna do is let this guy destroy such a fine adventure. Anyway...
Sorry to hear about your hiatus. It sucks when real life interferes with gaming. But alas, thats how is goes sometimes.
As for me, yeah, I'm 32. Been GMing since I was 14 or so.
The player is 27. Here's a little bit about him. Mama's boy, very condesending, still lives at home, only child, etc.
If the guy is a friend, not just a random pick-up off the boards, then I'd say everybody needs to ask him what his beef is, how you can all work out the problem. People forget that D&D really is a social game, played with real people, who have real issues.
If this dude is just a *random git, then heck yeah, if he doesn't toe the line tonight, drop him.
*Note on Random Gits: I don't mean hate on this class of citizen. My current group started play 2.5 years ago, as random gits off the boards. We've since morphed into real friends, who do things together other than D&D on a regular basis.
As for me, yeah, I'm 32. Been GMing since I was 14 or so.
We're the Pushing-40 group... I never thought I'd be rolling the dice, in MY home, with my kids in the next room. It's sobering, let me tell ya.
Again - I hope you guys have a great time, 'cause somebody needs to rock Kingmaker tonight. :)
The player is 27. Here's a little bit about him. Mama's boy, very condesending, still lives at home, only child, etc.If the guy is a friend, not just a random pick-up off the boards, then I'd say everybody needs to ask him what his beef is, how you can all work out the problem. People forget that D&D really is a social game, played with real people, who have real issues.
If this dude is just a *random git, then heck yeah, if he doesn't toe the line tonight, drop him.
*Note on Random Gits: I don't mean hate on this class of citizen. My current group started play 2.5 years ago, as random gits off the boards. We've since morphed into real friends, who do things together other than D&D on a regular basis.
As for me, yeah, I'm 32. Been GMing since I was 14 or so.We're the Pushing-40 group... I never thought I'd be rolling the dice, in MY home, with my kids in the next room. It's sobering, let me tell ya.
Again - I hope you guys have a great time, 'cause somebody needs to rock Kingmaker tonight. :)
Why are they in the next room? I'm 39 and mine are gamers already...