Our witch is a blend of leader and controller. She's the main healer in the party currently, but she also handles some batlefield management through evil eye and her other spells.
In my Kingmaker campaign, my wife plays a Witch named Abagail.
Abagail just reached level 11. Her main role has been supporting the party, through hexes, healing, and control, with a bit of damage thrown in now and then.
She is also our Duchess (soon to be Queen) and her ability to Intimidate or be Diplomatic outshines the rest of the group.
The Witch is a very well rounded class. My wife is new to tabletop RPGs and this is second character. Her first was a Druid in the RotRL AP I ran last year.
/sigh
I tried to get the thread back on topic...
Witches are great and have probably forever killed mystic theurge builds...
Yup. I know I won't be mourning that loss.
My witch is 12th level by the way, playing Curse of the Crimson Throne. He mostly specializes in battlefield control, debuffing and blasting. A difference though, is that I made him cast spells like a sorcerer. it has been a great character to play.
Most of my APG class builds use extra hex/rage power/talents/mysteries etc because for the most part they are just better than a feat.
Witches are great and have probably forever killed mystic theurge builds...
It depends on the feat and the character level. It also depends on the character concept and development plans. Granted, the Evil Eye/Misfortune and Cackle combination is one of the more powerful options available at 1st level for a witch, but other options (especially among the rage powers, where many can only be used once per rage) are much more limited at that level, compared to feats like Power Attack or even Weapon Focus in some cases (the +1 on attack rolls is a constant benefit and it's a prerequisite for Dazzling Display).
As far as killing the mystic theurge "builds" goes, not so much. The witch does not have access to many of the best cleric and sorcerer/wizard spells (or at least not all of them, depending on the patron); a well designed/developed mystic theurge will be more versatile than a witch, although the witch will not have to deal with the "problem levels" (5th-9th) that cause many to dismiss the mystic theurge as "unplayable/unviable."
Anyway, a witch based on a peasant farmer/hedge witch/spirit medium/necromancer concept:
Human Witch 5
14 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 17 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha
Heart of the Fields (Craft (Alchemy))
1- Hex (Evil Eye), Patron (Strength); Extra Hex (Cackle), Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scythe)
2- Hex (Cauldron)
3- Power Attack
4- +1 Int, Hex (Misfortune)
5- Craft Wand
Skills: Craft (Alchemy) 4, Heal 4, Intimidate 3, Knowledge (Arcana) 3, Knowledge (Nature) 1, Profession (Farmer) 1, Profession (Herbalist) 1, Spellcraft 5, Survival 3, Use Magic Device 5
Spells Known: All 0-level spells; Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield; Bull's Strength, Death Knell, False Life, Glitterdust, Spectral Hand; Heroism, Stinking Cloud
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Getting back on topic-ish, is it just me, or has almost everyone playing a Witch spent their first feat(s) on Extra Hex?
Hell, I was just screwing around building a 20th level witch on HeroLab, and I'll be damned if almost all her feats weren't Extra Hex. 95% of the feats available just don't add quite the same oomph! as having another Hex.
See I never went with extra Hex. I designed my Witch as after the Old Folklorish Herbalist/Midwife, Hedgewitch who was in touch with the Old Gods. The Person you went to for advise on when to plant and harvest, and about the festivals and for cures, love potions, and advise. And when there was sickness in the family or in the animals. If you needed a calf pulled or a tooth pulled :) Or as a go between for you and the Goddess or Gods :)
So I went with Healing, Cauldron, and Fly, and for skills, Healing, Herbalist, Midwife, Brewing, and Fortune Telling :) As well as Knowledge: Nature, and Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: History,
I gotta say, I really like the Witch class. What keeps me from playing it is that it has Int as a prime req even though it's suppossed to get it's power from "communion with the unknown". The fluff just plain don't make sense.yes it does... the classic witch isn't necessarily persuasive, nor was she touched with the divine, she was taught her Craft and generally pretty darned smart. Witches have far more common in theme with Wizards than any other class.The classic witch' iconic power is beguilement. I think the classic witch is very persuasive.
But what I was talking about has nothing to do with the classic witch. It has to do with whether learning secrets through communion with other worldly entities has more to do with charisma (ie. persuading these entities to share their secrets with you) than with intelligence (ie. reasoning out what these entities are telling you).
I suppose that boils down to particular character flavor. One might see the charming seductress witch when they thing of witches or one might think of a frightful, spiteful hag. My first thought of a witch when I read the class was Madame Mim (I think was her name) from that ridiculous Disney movie, Sword in the Stone, where as my friend thought of something more akin Sleeping Beauty's villian. Although there is nothing really stopping a witch from putting a good statistic in charisma and ranking up social skills. With disguises and charms and skills charisma doesn't need to be a prime requisite to be useful. Understanding mysteries through a good intelligence works for me. Could be worse...we could have a casting class that dirives its spell DC by one statistic and its spells per day by another, ect...
"Witch" is a very old term with very many meanings. Let us not get bogged down in the perceived differences, that way lies trolldom.
Circe was a witch, women in salem and the inquisition were witches, my sister-in-law is a practicing witch. This term is about as slippery as Monk, and should be handled as such.
I suppose that boils down to particular character flavor. One might see the charming seductress witch when they thing of witches or one might think of a frightful, spiteful hag. My first thought of a witch when I read the class was Madame Mim (I think was her name) from that ridiculous Disney movie, Sword in the Stone, where as my friend thought of something more akin Sleeping Beauty's villian. Although their is nothing really stopping a witch from putting a good statistic in charisma and ranking up social skills. With disguises and charms and skills charisma doesn't need to be a prime requisite to be useful.A frightful, spiteful hag would still be known for her charisma score. She'd just have a lot more points in Intimidate than in Diplomacy.
On the other hand, a fairly mundane wall flower who spends most of her life being ignored by the people around her would have a low charisma. The problem is, I just can't think of too many witches who fit that profile. On the other hand, I can think of quite stories of wall flowers who decided to become witches and, once they became witches, their charisma skyrocketed.
I'd be careful not to make reknown and CHA synonomous. And being frightful and spiteful doesn't neccessarily make one well known. With a good number of ranks in intimidate you don't neccessarily need a good CHA to be successful at it; if a peasant wandered near such a witch's home circumstance bonus could stack up nicely. Witch is a vague term, and for the rules it had to be decided which way to spin it. Besides, a sorcerer/ess could be a witch to the townsfolk, setting game terms aside, and there would be your charming seductress.
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I think using either Charisma or Wisdom fits in more with the mythical/folklore witches than Intelligence (as does spontaneous spellcasting). As such, I devised an archetype for the Witch class:
Change Spells/Day and Spells Known progression from wizard-equivalent to sorcerer-equivalent. Spellcasting is spontaneous. Spellcasting and Hexing is CHA-based. Patron bonus spells, like sorcerer bloodline spells, don't count against spells known. Increase skill ranks per level to 4 + Int modifier.
If you prefer Wisdom, substitute WIS for CHA.
We're talking about "witch" as portrayed in the majority of myths, legends, folk tales, etc. We're not talking about witches as they allegedly were in real life."Witch" is a very old term with very many meanings. Let us not get bogged down in the perceived differences, that way lies trolldom.
Circe was a witch, women in salem and the inquisition were witches, my sister-in-law is a practicing witch. This term is about as slippery as Monk, and should be handled as such.
What I'm saying LT, is that there is a great deal of variance within even that definition. Enough to squabble over, for certain.
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With a good number of ranks in intimidate you don't neccessarily need a good CHA to be successful at it; if a peasant wandered near such a witch's home circumstance bonus could stack up nicely.
Aye, circumstance bonus from simply being known for ruthless murder and brutal acts.
::
Remember folks, you don't need ranks in Intimidate* to be scary. Intimidate is the art of implied harm/danger*. If you actually do stab them/turn them into a frog/burn their babies then..
..well, they should react accordingly*.
Actions speak louder than words* - even the scary words!
Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee)
To get out of the 4e terminology…….. none of the above. My witch is the jack of all trades.....more like a hard hitting bard that never runs out of hex's. It is a very fun class to play.
I'd be careful not to make reknown and CHA synonomous.I wouldn't.
Not every one who does something heroic gains renown and not everyone who gains renown has done something heroic. The difference is charisma.As for Sorcerers getting known as witches, that's irrelevant. The crux of the issue is over whether or not someone who gains power from communing with otherworldly entities should be charisma based or intelligence based. When I see "communing", I think "socializing". That points to charisma.
Renown and Charisma simply don't mean the same thing.
Renown - n. The quality of being widely honored and acclaimed; fame
Charisma - n. Personal magnetism or charm
One can be famous and still be ugly and rude. One can be attractive and eloquent without being well renown.
Evil barbarian warlords may be well known, but I doubt he'd be the kind of guy you'd like to spend an evening with. Well maybe I would...
Witches being known for being seductresses or hags, or for turning people into vermin, or for eating children, et cetera, is a story about witches in general, which would be different than saying "THAT" witch has a reputation for said things.
A wizard makes an INT check when casting Contact Other Plane, which I would consider "communing with otherworld entities". That said communing with strange being for spell energies to me personally feels more like a Wisdom mechanic, but I'm not going to say I don't see how Intelligence plays into, it is a fine choice for the class as well.
But the typical witch story has people scared because they heard from somebody who heard from somebody that the witch turned somebody into a frog.
Very rarely does the witch ever turn someone into a frog in front of the camera.
So, it's typically more of an implied threat.
..so she has bad/good PR -- so do earthquakes, massacres and bad hair products.*
O_o None of which ever made an Inimidate check.*
O_o None of which need to imply anything.*
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You don't need* to use the skill Intimidate to be intimidating. All you need to do is something people will be intimidated by.
Like, turning them into a frog.
Very rarely or otherwise.
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Note: Being able to use the skill Intimidate successfully can save you a lot of effort and the need to turn people into frogs.
..the Charisma 5 no-ranks-in-the-skill-Intimidate Witch might get very annoyed/have a hard time with having to continuously back up his/her/misc words with actions every time they want to scare a peasant....
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''Out of the way old crone, this is my path!''
''Hee hee heee, oh really?''
''Yes.''
''Do you know who I am?''
''No. Nor do I care. You smell funny and lack presence.''
''I am THE WITCH!''
''The one infamous for turning Farmer Benson's child into a frog?''
''...hee hee hee hee, the very same...''
''Really?''
''..yes.''
''...''
''...what?''
''Oh, um, nothing...''
''Eh? What? Do you doubt me?''
''Well, yeah. I mean, well, you don't seem the type. No offense.''
''...eh?''
''Well, um, to be honest, your the least scariest person I've ever met. My grandmother, god bless her freaky facial hair, is scarier than you....''
''I am most certainly 'The Type'. With a gesture I can reduce your fine physical form to that of a slimy pond dweller...''
''Really?''
''Yes!''
''..um..
''What?''
''Um...well.. er.. can you, like, prove it?''
''...''
''No?''
''..no.''
''lol? Why?''
''*sigh* ...I kinda used my 5th level spell slots all ready. Goblins. Ya know?''
''Oh. Oh I seeee.. ok. Well...''
''Yes... well..''
''um....''
''...''
''...''
''Well, I guess you must be on your way? ''
''Oh, oh yes, of course. On my way, yes. Sorry.''
''No harm done. Um.. good bye.''
''..yes. Um.. no harm done.... um...''
''...?''
''...I am scary you know..''
''Just go.''
''Bye.''
''..bye.''
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Likewise, a mad man shaking his fist isn't going to make everybody bow down and do as he says. He has to have something to back it up. But sure, a witch casting out of her Intelligence is fine, she's crafty, always got something up her sleeve, always plotting and has the smarts to live in the middle of the swamp so she's not blowing all her baleful polymorphs on every Tom, Dick, Harry and Dumdar who comes asking for treats.
She may be charismatic, she may be wise, but nobody ever said that the wise old wizard needs to cast out of his Wisdom, or the cleric orator who whips nations in religious frenzies needs to cast out of their Charisma.
Besides, another caster using Charisma? Might as well call that the universal casting stat considering how many use it anyway.
Likewise, a mad man shaking his fist isn't going to make everybody bow down and do as he says.
Exactly!
..well, unless they have a Rod of Rulership.
..or a nation of loyally conditioned citizens.
..or, beer.
..or..
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That's pretty much true in 4th edition as well, both games are considerably more flexible than old 1st edition AD+D or the original pre 1st D+D.
I'm not sure I agree. I don't know a lot about 4E, as I pretty quickly decided that it wasn't for me. But what made 0E amazingly flexible was the fact that the rules were very light, and pretty nebulous in some areas. 3E/PFRPG are pretty rules heavy and (in my less-than-humble opinion) over-codified. There might be more published options for 3E/PFRPG, but that's because in 0E the options were up to the DM. Just as an example, the original boxed set didn't include a thief/rogue. So many players played a Fighting-Man, but flavored him as a thief/rogue.
I'd argue that the over-codification of d20 actually makes it less flexible, since there are often clearly defined things that you cannot do. This was much less prevalent in the older editions (although the system grew ever more codified as the new editions rolled out).
I'd argue that the over-codification of d20 actually makes it less flexible, since there are often clearly defined things that you cannot do. This was much less prevalent in the older editions (although the system grew ever more codified as the new editions rolled out).
Aye, I agree.
We find games like All Flesh Must Be Eaten are stronger/faster to play than DnD/Pathfinder based ones.
There is a table for success, you assign modifiers on the fly, you make a roll you deal with the effects.
Some stuff is covered in the rules but most requires DM ad libbing.
Games run smoothly, characters are made very rapidly, fun is had.
Job done.
To be honest, we apply the same techniques to DnD/Pathfinder - however, initial character creation takes much longer.
It doesn't have to, but that's also the different 'fun' aspect for us with DnD/Pathfinder - making characters, playing with the system.
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Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?I have to say this now. Because if I don't, I'll hate myself for not saying it. These ROLES you refer to are a 4E thing. This is Pathfinder. Not 4E. Thank you.
Agreed
I LOVE the Witch! The one I am currently playing is level 7:
Str: 8, Dex:16, Con:14, Int:23, Wis:7, Cha: 9
Feats: Extra Hex, Imp. Initiative, Toughness, Spell Focus (Necromancy), Imp. Familiar
Hexes: Fortune, Misfortune, Cackle, Evil Eye, Slumber
He is so fun to play! I do mostly buffing/debuffing but have the flexibility to be whatever the party needs....except for being competent in social situations (he is so awkward).
Extra Hex is a feat I would always take. Always. Your hexes are your strength...the more of them you have the more powerful you are.
I haven't got my character sheet in front of me at the moment, but in our current Legacy of Fire game I'm playing a half-elf witch (along with my friend playing her half-orc sister). I've had some designs on one of the achievements in the campaign, to heal 1000 points of damage . . . so far at level 6ish it's slow going, but I've been fairly satisfied with my role as healer/occasional debuffer. I've taken Extra Hex, and loaded up on things like Misfortune and Evil Eye, along with Cackle, and have so far been pretty effective for someone who hasn't done a single point of damage so far :3
Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?I have to say this now. Because if I don't, I'll hate myself for not saying it. These ROLES you refer to are a 4E thing. This is Pathfinder. Not 4E. Thank you.Actually they are a table top RPG thing (for most TTRPG'S anyway) 4E just put a name to them.
Really? Wow, i didn't know that? What was the 'Role' of Anya Kovatch, my knocker ornothopter pilot and messanger, in changeling: the dreaming? How about my Raymond Jacobs, my sandman and former artist in wraith? Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what Private John Andrew's Role was in our WW1 the battle of the Somme based Call of Cthulhu game I played at uni. Because i was rather under the impression they where three dimensional characters with goals, interests and skill sets, which existed independently of the other characters, and mattered to the game beyond the question of what their part in resolving the primary plot line.
I was going to say much the same thing actually. But left it because i thought the point was made better as is.
I've been playing since I was like seven, and I'm twenty seven now, and the idea off a role was entirely new to me. Playing a wide variety of games, it was a term that was never used, or if it was, it did not refer to what a character was meant to do, but rather the role that a character might play in the unfolding drama of the game. One exception exists in my mind, and that is CP2020, where we did talk about characters having jobs to do, but it was an in character conceit.
The very names of the 4e roles feel alien to me, the terms like net runner, get away driver, fire support, air cover, spotter, face and inflitrator, they made sense in CP2020, because they are the terms we felt the character would use, it was relatively in keeping with the worlds we where emulating, but I have never read a good fantasy tale where the hero shouts, 'Dude, your a sucky striker.'
But cries of 'Where is our arsing net overwatch, fizzle? We're getting creamed down here.'
I don't think about roles so much except when it becomes an issue for our group's makeup. I've played my current character, a male human witch 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 1 (he prefers the term warlock) since we were all CL 8 at the start of this campaign. The other players were running a half-orc barbarian, a dwarf fighter (axe-and-board, defensive feat choices), and an aasimar cleric.
Since I was the only arcane caster up to this point, I had to diversify as both a debuffer and a damage-dealer with what evocations I had at hand. A staff of fire found in a treasure hoard didn't hurt matters, but he was already stocked with a necklace of fireballs and a few backup wands gleaned from fallen enemies (putting max ranks in UMD every level).
Last night, though, the half-orc bit the dust and his player made the decision to resurrect the character but retire him temporarily in favor of his new human evoker. With him covering the bases on offensive casting, I get a chance to focus on a different aspect of my character - debuffing with hexes (evil eye, misfortune), supplementing the cleric's channeling (heal), brewing potions (cauldron) and crafting arms and armor.
For feats, I've mainly stuck with ranged attack abilities like Rapid Reload and Shot On the Run, since my Dex is 20 but my Strength is a mere 10. I did invest in Spring Attack to deliver touch spells without getting creamed, though, and eventually I'll pick up Weapon Finesse (rapier). In the long term, I want 10 levels of witch so I have access to greater hexes and can add more with the Extra Hex feat, because soon I'll be dipping back into Eldritch Knight for the 1:1 BAB, d10 hit die, and ability to take feats with fighter levels as prerequisites.
My role in the party evolves depending on the people around me, but I like that a lot. Being a rock-em-sock-em fighter or a gee-whiz-flame-and-lightning wizard gets tiresome; bard feels a little TOO specialized for my tastes. So for me, the witch is a happy medium between those extremes and a LOT of fun to play.
If you aren't going to give a constructive answer can you please make a new thread and vent your bile there? The poster did not intend to start an edition or "terminology" war and your doing so here is distracting from the point of the thread.
THE. WITCH.
If you aren't talking about a witch shut up and go elsewhere.
I've not yet had a chance to play one but have made one as backup incase my current fellow bites the dust. (made an oracle too lol).
I've been trying not to concentrate on any one sole role since they can have in their spellbooks any spell on the list. While not as large a list as the wizard or cleric it does have alot of room for variation. I tried to mix a little utility and some crowd control while using hexes mainly to debuff the target. (took healing hex just in case but healing isn't his primary focus).
For fluff
-S
My witch just hit level 3, so I can only comment on levels 1-2.
We have a Paladin, A Fighter, and a Cleric. We also have a Ranger who shows up sometimes, but he's missed the last two meetings.
We're a fairly close-range party, and currently I've been serving as the debuffer. My hexes are Slumber and Evil Eye.
Things my Witch has done:
Charmed a bandit leader and talked him in to letting us leave with all our gear after he ambushed us.
Gave a "baby" troll a -2 to AC and Attack Rolls, allowing the fighter and Paladin to mop it up.
Cast Extended Ray of Emfeeblement on a Bugbear, rolling well, and throwing a -2 to attack rolls on top of it. He ended up with a -4 to hit.
Cast Burning Hands on some goblins, including women and children (Paladin was not happy).
Put a giant bat back to sleep after we practically walked into it and woke it up.
Combined Evil Eye with the Cleric's Doom spell to get a total of -4 to saves. Planning on taking Pox Pustules this level which will allow me to make enemies Sickened, for another -2. This will be a total of -6 to saves, and when I hit 8th level, it'll go to a combined -8. Assuming everything hits, this will make enemies extremely vulnerable to spells (or to my sleep hex!).
Took Scribe Scroll. Spend most of my gold making scrolls so that my spells per day isn't so restrictive. No one else can use the scrolls, but they've been very helpful for me. Charm person doesn't really gain all that much by using my caster level instead of CL1 (just a longer duration), and for 12.5g I can make a scroll and never have to slot it.
I don't have any "battlefield control" spells, which I'm sad about. I'll probably grab black tentacles eventually, and I get flaming sphere at 4th level from my patron. The cleric is fond of using obscuring mist, so that's covered.
For 3rd level, I chose Empower Spell. I have a trait that makes Ray of Enfeeblement cost 1 less level for Metamagic feats, so I can slot it as a 2nd level spell, and deal (1d6 * 1.5) + 3 STR damage.
I also get 2 2nd level spells. I've chosen Pox Pustules and Blindness/Deafness. B/D is my only long range spell (130 feet). All my hexes, and all my spells, are 35' or less, which is not good.
So, next session, I plan to be hexing people for -2 to saves, giving them a nasty rash for a -4 DEX, -2 to Attack/Damage/Saves/Skills, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement for 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, or 12 STR damage, and then BLINDING them, for -2 AC, no DEX to AC, -4 on STR/DEX checks, and 50% concealment for my friends.
I am a debuffer. BBEGs beware.
I have a trait that makes Ray of Enfeeblement cost 1 less level for Metamagic feats, so I can slot it as a 2nd level spell, and deal (1d6 * 1.5) + 3 STR damage.
...
It's actually (1d6+3)*1.5 since the entire calculation is a variable of the spell.
That is, unless the Paizo developers changed the way it worked since v3.5.
My DM has ruled that "variable, numeric" emcompasses rolls and not modifiers.
I searched around for it, and saw people arguing both ways. Is there anything official?