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An idea I've been kicking around my head awhile, that I am finally taking some time to work out, is bringing Cleric and Druid casting more in line with Wizard and Sorcerer casting. Divine casters have access to their entire spell list, making them very versatile. I feel this is not in keeping with Wizards 'gotta catch 'em all' style and Sorcerers limited menu.
The first thing I feel should be done is make divine preparation key off of Wisdom, arcane preparation key of of Intelligence, and spontaneous casting of both key off of Charisma.
Secondly, Paladins should cast spontaneously, in keeping with Charisma being their casting stat.
The final, most sweeping change is making either the Cleric or Druid a spontaneous caster while the other along with the Ranger must learn spells known as a Wizard does, minus the spellbook requirement.
My initial plan is to have the Druid remain a Wisdom-based preparation caster, who must learn rituals to cast his spells. A suggestion for the Druid was to require druidic tattoos/runes for each spell known. The Ranger would have a similar requirement. For the Cleric, I've looked back to 2e and spheres. My intent is to divide the Cleric spell list into individual domain spell lists, and allow him to cast spontaneously any spell on his two domain spell lists.
The other option is to make the Druid a counterpart to the Sorcerer, casting rituals spontaneously from a set list. The Cleric would then prepare his spells from his two domain spell lists.
Another optional rule would be to bring back minor and major spheres. A Cleric could prepare/cast spells of 3rd level and lower from any of their deity's domains, and only cast 4th and higher from their two chosen domains. This would allow Clerics to remain almost as versatile at low levels, but reduce their power in the upper levels.
I am currently processing the spell lists for the Cleric and will post them when I have the first rough draft done. Suggestions are welcome.
The real problem i see what what you want to do. Is while Wizards/Sorcerers have to pick or learn spells and only have a select number. Much less for the Sorc then the Wizard who can with a generous DM learn most all the spells. But the point is they can PICK from every spell available. With what it sounds like you want to do for Cleric for sure, Druids i would need more info on. Your cutting there spell list down. In some cases it could be less then half. Yes they would get every Domain of there god from 3rd down. But 4th on up they would have a very small spell selection.
If you make the Domains have to many spells then they all just start to blur together. I don't see how you can get around this.
Yes Wizards and Sorc do suffer when compared to Cleric's and Druid's. But both Cleric/Druids have to mem spells just like a Wizard. Plus the wizard can keep adding spell to his spell book from scrolls or by another spell book. Sorc make up for the lack of so few spells they can pick from by being able to cast more spells and to cast spells on the fly. Plus they get to add all meta-magic feats when they decide to cast the spell. Not when they mem a spell. So it is never wasted for them.
I like it tri keep us posted
I think your underlying premise makes a LOT of sense, but I'm not sure the implementation is quite in the right direction. Let me think on it a while and I'll get back to you.
Good show.
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Appreciate it Kirth. Already had one fair point made that had me adjust my thinking. Looking for more. Also, it may be obvious, but I meant that Paladins spontaneously cast from their whole spell list. They have few per day and a short list, so it shouldn't be a problem. If anyone sees a problem with it, speak up.
You should remember tho that by which ever you make into a spontaneous caster Cleric or Druid. The fact that they can add any meta-magic feats on the fly. That could be one way you explain the small spell selection list. Just something to keep in mind.
I like the idea, been sort of toying with something similar myself. One thing I found (regarding clerics) is that certain spells like atonement, bless, commune, hallow/unhallow, and prayer are sort of necessary or expected cleric spells (in my mind, at least) but aren't on any domain spell list. Certainly, spells such as flame strike and implosion don't fit certain gods' portfolios (Ishtishia's clerics can cast flame strike?), but prayer fits just about any priest.
Anyway, I love the house rules you play with (geez, those are awesome!) and I'm excited to see what you come up with here.
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Obviously there will be a Universal list, but it will be pretty small. Trying to decide if Cure spells should be on that one or Healing. I wouldn't take away spell completion/trigger ability for spells not on the domain lists, but I'm not sure it would be fair to limit preparing Cure spells to only Healing domain Clerics.
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Secondly, Paladins should cast spontaneously, in keeping with Charisma being their casting stat.
I'm going to steal that - different reasoning than the spontaneous/CHA mechanical connection, I've just never felt that Paladins should really prep spells.
They have a very small list, are supposed to be the arm of Gods and their spell selection is super-Paladin specific. A pally should not need to memorize bless, just cast it as needed and it's used up a slot. Maybe limit the selection based on the specific order, but anything on the list.Hmm
May go this route with Rangers.
My initial plan is to have the Druid remain a Wisdom-based preparation caster, who must learn rituals to cast his spells. A suggestion for the Druid was to require druidic tattoos/runes for each spell known. The Ranger would have a similar requirement.
This is a deviation - and it might seem a little weird/mechanics light, but instead of a tattoo/runic requirement (or as another alternate) you could require that in addition/instead the Druid be required to commune with nature to regain and prep spells.
Not a big deal - but it could be a problem if the druid couldn't just pray for the spell in room at the inn but actually needs to be outside for the time at dawn -away from the town, in a grove, under starlight, near a stream - all depending on his faith or order, blah, blah, etc, etc, as an alternate sub for runic stones or tattoos.In other words - location restrictions. And he can get his low level stuff anywhere, but 4th or higher may require the natural connection. Could be tough for high level or extra planar adventuring unless the class was given a trade-off option to regain some of his 4th or higher level spells when not near his generic nature focus and is stuck in a hostile or extra-planar environment.
Just an idea.
The other option is to make the Druid a counterpart to the Sorcerer, casting rituals spontaneously from a set list.
With the same spell level progression as the sorcerer? That would work, but then you now give them limited spontaneous healing - eh, it's still weaker than the cleric so not really a big deal.
Another optional rule would be to bring back minor and major spheres. A Cleric could prepare/cast spells of 3rd level and lower from any of their deity's domains, and only cast 4th and higher from their two chosen domains. This would allow Clerics to remain almost as versatile at low levels, but reduce their power in the upper levels.
I am currently processing the spell lists for the Cleric and will post them when I have the first rough draft done. Suggestions are welcome.
That is a tough sell for 3.5/PF since the perception would be that it would be a shift backwards in power - but tbh it would make more sense for clerics and druids to spontaneously cast minor to moderate "miracles" and acts of faith than memorizing spells. In their domains no less. Good stuff.
Some great ideas TOZ, the spontaneous casting can get tough on the balance side - but if the domains are well thought it could work out nicely.
So now the Cleric of the Sun (or whatever) will actually look and play closer to a Sun cleric than what we currently have in 3.5 or PF.
As long as the minor domains can also pull off the basic civic/community/universal stuff (unless its a 100% anti-social faith - war, disease, insanity, etc) I think it would work.
Obviously there will be a Universal list, but it will be pretty small. Trying to decide if Cure spells should be on that one or Healing. I wouldn't take away spell completion/trigger ability for spells not on the domain lists, but I'm not sure it would be fair to limit preparing Cure spells to only Healing domain Clerics.
Something you could consider is adding Necromancy on to cure spells. that would help open the field some on domains. And please don't fall for the stereotype that all Necromancy or even all Necromancers are evil. Its just not true.
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Something you could consider is adding Necromancy on to cure spells. that would help open the field some on domains. And please don't fall for the stereotype that all Necromancy or even all Necromancers are evil. Its just not true.
Oh trust me, I've been over the 'why are undead evil' question many times around here. :)
Unfortunately there isn't a domain that corresponds to Necromancy excepting maybe Death, and I don't see healing being a big thing for a Death cleric on first blush.
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I like the Cleric to be able to cast some spells spont., it really fits the idea of miracles I think and helps to seperate Arcane and Divine Magic. What about some Mechanic that grants more spells known/accessable by level, like a Wizards. At every level they add 1 to 3 more spells. Remember that Cleric magic is both weaker than Arcane most of the time, certain effects (restoration, nuetralize poison, etc) are expected from the Cleric, and that Clerics tend to need a bigger variaty of spells than arcanists. Another idea might be to add either spells to all Domains (like 5+) or to allow minor Domain customozation, allowing players to add any level equivalent or lower "fire", "smoke", or "heat" Druid or Wizard spell to their Fire Domain list every 4 or 5 levels.
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Another suggestion I would shy away from is taking a class and mandaiting that a certain theme goes with it, like the Druid tattoo/rune idea. It sort of stems the potentual for other classes to use that as a concept. For example, what if someone wants to play a dwarven/norse/oriental (FF) priest that channels the divine thru runes. If that is a Druid thing it (at least me) makes me feel ackward like,stepping on toes.
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Yeah, I'm trying to come up with something that sounds druidic but hasn't been done. The witch already claimed the 'commune with companion' idea, so I'm at a loss.
A 'Personal Prayer' class feature to allow adding a limited number of non-sphere spells might not be a bad thing. That would let me be very restrictive in spell list while allowing clerics to get the versatility they need.
I agree that certain spells should be in the Universal sphere, I'm just not sure how much. If too many healing spells get in, what is the point of the Healing sphere?
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I like the idea, just think that the idea might be better served if changed. Maybe natural sites and primal monuments where Druids go to commune with nature. Maybe a waterfall or pool is required for water, mist, or cold related spells, while an untammed mountain for earth and armor related spells. Further, it might be partially unique to the individual, helping to reinforce the idea of wilderness protectors but allowing universal holy sites.
Sorry for interfering:
@ beckett, still interested in joining? Then take a look at:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/playByPostDiscussion/ dMZyrensHeartOfDarknessDiscussions&page=1#42
and:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/playByPost/dMZyrensHe artOfDarkness&page=1#38
i know this is a little more off the beaten track but i have been playing around with the idea of having a cleric channal his domains for a period of time more like a binder channaling vestiges from the tome of magic.
it would be more like vamping up the domain powers and giving the domains a bunch of cool extra effects and allowing the cleric to channal more domains as he/she gets more powerfull.
this would cause the cleric to be less a spellcaster and be allot more flexible and makes them seam to be more infused by the devine energies than taking snippets of it here and there.
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Sorry for interfering:
@ beckett, still interested in joining? Then take a look at:http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/playByPostDiscussion/ dMZyrensHeartOfDarknessDiscussions&page=1#42
and:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/playByPost/dMZyrensHe artOfDarkness&page=1#38
Will do once I get internet at home. Just moved in.
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I like the idea for the new Domains, though it might be better to change the name so there is no confussion. I think Domains (Spheres) are better than deity specific spell lists because it is simpler with nearly the same result, but you might use a non PF setting which means redoing all the work for that setting. However, what you might do is make spell lists per a divine concept (of light and healing, of death and the undead, of nature and the elements, etc . . .). Sort of a middle ground.
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Very rough first draft of the general cleric spells. Did I miss any? Are there too many, considering the cleric will get two other spheres?
1st—Inflict/Cure Light Wounds, Bane/Bless, Protection from Evil/good/etc., Detect Evil/good/etc.
2nd—Consecrate/Desecrate, Inflict/Cure Moderate Wounds, Magic Weapon
3rd—Bestow/Remove Curse, Inflict/Cure Serious Wounds, Prayer, Lesser Restoration
4th—Divination, Inflict/Cure Critical Wounds, Remove Disease
5th—Atonement, Commune, Hallow/Unhallow, Mass Inflict/Cure Light Wounds, Restoration
6th—Mass Inflict/Cure Moderate Wounds, Raise Dead, Break Enchantment
7th—Mass Inflict/Cure Serious Wounds, Resurrection, Heal/Harm, Banishment
8th—Mass inflict/Cure Critical Wounds, Holy/Unholy Aura, Greater Restoration
9th—Miracle
While everyone gets the cure/inflict spells at the same time, everyone but the Healing Sphere gets things like Restoration and Raise Dead a level later. And only the Healing Sphere will have Heal, Mass.
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1st level needs Bless/Curse Water, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, and probably should add all the Summon Monster spells to all levels. 2nd level needs Aid, Calm Emotions, Enthrall, Gentle Repose, Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Spiritual Weapon, Status, and Zone of Truth. 3rd needs. (Cause)/Remove Blindness Deafness, Continual Flame (ever burning torch), Daylight, Helping Hand, Magic Vestment, Remove Disease/Contagion, and Speak with Dead. Will check other levels later, but I think these are some pretty generic, priestly things.
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I think so, more or less. There are so many "what about this"s out I am not sure exactly what I am looking at over all. But, the majority of the spells I suggested are pretty part and parcel of what people expect from a Cleric. Most Clerics not having ready access to them would either start to change the game to much or require that parties start contributing to scrolls and wands of Remove Fear, Restoration, etc . . . from the get go, because most of those spells do not really affect the Cleric as much as they are a "class feature" for parties that happen to include a Cleric.
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That would work with domain lists that clerics would prepare spells from, but not spontaneous casting. Which was the other option, but I want to shift cleric casting over to Cha instead of Wis. I figure I might write it up both ways to see which meshes better.
I should also mention that the spells are still considered on the list for the purpose of completion and trigger items, so they aren't completely banned from those spells.
For the prepared casting it could be like the wizard schools where other sphere spells take two slots to prepare.
Great thread & posted/dotted for easy finding!
Like some of you, clerics (& druids) having access to all spells on their list somehow doesn’t feel right to me. So, I am very interested to see some alternatives & see where this thread is going.
my 2 cents:
- I think the AD&D (2) spheres-mechanic was great in making priests/clerics with different feel & at the same time limiting their spells known. The cleric domains come close & if you expand the spells per domain, you are close to the spheres. Spheres & domains can also work for druids: animal, plant, elemental (all in one – or individually), …
- spontaneous or not spontaneous: I can easily see clerics preparing spells (they belong to more “structured” religions: churches & temples), while I see druids as more spontaneous (their wild shape ability is in fact also spontaneous) (but CHA & druids may not be such a good fit).
But, the majority of the spells I suggested are pretty part and parcel of what people expect from a Cleric. Most Clerics not having ready access to them would either start to change the game to much or require that parties start contributing to scrolls and wands of Remove Fear, Restoration, etc . . . from the get go, because most of those spells do not really affect the Cleric as much as they are a "class feature" for parties that happen to include a Cleric.
Difficult one: I agree that limiting the universal spell list would change the role of the cleric in the adventuring party as it is now and you can certainly make a case why these spells should be included in the universal list. But I don’t think the universal list should be too broad: I am in favor of more specialised clerics in line with their gods portfolio. + instead of “heal bot” clerics, you can have more versality (both in the party as in the game world). As an alternative, the same spell can end up in different domains/spheres.
Hagor
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Yes, I just have my Shackled City game tonight, and Kirth's game on Monday. Hopefully tomorrow I can sit down and do some more work. However, the task of cleaning up my home office looms before me as well. :)
Also, I'm on leave for the next three weeks, so if you want to catch lunch or dinner sometime, drop me a line.
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What would you think about some sort of minor system that attempted to allow the actual Powers-That-Be to offer a spell on the fly. Maybe something like 1/4 of their total Spells per day, the Cleric's player does not get to choose, and are essentually open spell slots that they pray for when a need arizes, but the Player/Cleric doesn't actualy know what effect will happen. Sort of like a miracle, maybe they attempt to heal a wounded NPC (or player), and wind up casting (and needing) Remove Disease instead. It would be level equivalent spells, and more importantly may not have an immediate needed effect, but could allow for a clever DM to show how Clerics utalize faith. But at the same time not restrict players from being able to take the spells they want.
For example, a level 1 Cleric might for instance pray for aid in battle and might get Divine Favor, Summn Monster, Shield of Faith, Bless, Bane, etc. . . If they already do have that spell prepaired, they may use that instead, so their "miracle" is not wasted nor is their prepaired spell if they instead want to use it then.
Not only that, but it can allow a DM to sort of show the player what their Deity/Philosophy feels about a given situation, and grants a minor "Jedi sense". If a group is prepping for a battle and the Cleric recieves an Obscuring Mist spell, does that mean that maybe they should run? Or is the Deity telling them to try to sneak past/avoid this encounter? Or is the lack of visibility the key to victory even though the party doesn't realize it yet?
Thoughts?
One thing I had just concidered about the altered Spell Levels you mentioned above, (TOZ), is how do you plan on handling their cost and much limited Creation? The Cost to create some common Scrolls and Wands will change a lot, as well as the time by which a character can eventually make them, (2 levels behind), but their purchase value would not. It would, in a realistic setting anyway, severely cut down on the availability of Potions, Wands, and Scrolls, and might even be more expensive to Create than to buy brand new. Or at least close.
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That's an interesting idea, also out of the scope of what I'm working on. I'll have to think about it, but it sounds closer to some kind of mother-may-I approach at first blush, and I'm not sure 3.x works with that as well. Look at illusions, after all.
The cost of item creation is an excellent point, and once I get the lists finished we can look at mitigating that. It could be as simple as saying 'use the PRD list for determining crafting costs' but that might be a little confusing to some. 'Why do I count it as two different levels depending on what I'm doing?' and such.
OK TriO. I read the first post of the thread and then skipped to the last post so if this has been brought up before I apologise in advance.
Your idea has a great deal of merit but if I could suggest one thing it would be to allow a Universal sphere like in second ed.
This had things like bless/curse, aid, dispel magic, remove curse and so forth.
These spells were avaiable to every cleric/druid/shaman/speacilty preist and so forth because they allowed the caster to do their job.
When they realligned the spheres and gave clerics the ability to summon natures allies but not druids they realised they had left out some key abilities of any class whoes primary role was defense/protection.
I hope you provide a link to your completed work when your done, I look forward to seeing it.