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Arcana pool


Round 1 – Magus

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Okay, it seems that it's becoming very apparant that the magus is going to be spellslot starved. To many class abilities (read: all) involve burning a spellslot.

I suggest giving the magus an arcane pool, similar to a monk's ki pool. Let them use that to power their arcana instead of spellslots. You could also do something similar to monks giving a benifit to having points remaining in the ki pool... maybe +1 force damage as long as 1 point is remaining, either increasing or adding different bene's at higher levels.


Let him eat scrolls and wands. A set pool limit would be interesting, but the actual resource expenditure should be drawn from expendables in some fashion.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
Let him eat scrolls and wands. A set pool limit would be interesting, but the actual resource expenditure should be drawn from expendables in some fashion.

Or combine the ideas. Set pool of points, but can replenish pool by sacrificing slots.

The problem with eating wants is scaling. A 50 charge wand of lvl 1 magic missile is cheap.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Interesting.. I had an idea similar to this early on that I have been considering revisiting.

Hmm

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Given they are prepared, Pearls of Power seem right up there ally, which helps...

But I kind of like the Ki Pool idea. Converting Spell Slots INTO Ki Points is even more interesting... Maybe a little complicated, but it seems well do-able.


I love this idea, it opens up a ton of possibilities. Let's say you had an Arcane Pool equal to half your level + your Int modifier. You could sacrifice one point to make Magus Arcana abilities such as Arcane Accuracy or Spell Shield. Alternatively, you could sacrifice a number of arcane points to get a spell back that you have already cast. The number of arcane points would be equal to the level of the spell regained.

I really hope something similar to this can be implemented.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Interesting.. I had an idea similar to this early on that I have been considering revisiting.

Hmm

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I actually rather like this idea. Not sure whether it should replace the traditional spellcasting style or if it should be in addition to, but I like it regardless.


TLO3 wrote:
Dorje Sylas wrote:
Let him eat scrolls and wands. A set pool limit would be interesting, but the actual resource expenditure should be drawn from expendables in some fashion.

Or combine the ideas. Set pool of points, but can replenish pool by sacrificing slots.

The problem with eating wants is scaling. A 50 charge wand of lvl 1 magic missile is cheap.

That's why the limiter is in the class, not on the item. Even if he's still limited to 3+Int + some level based increase. Most of the Arcana are spell level based so while a wand of a level 1 is cheap it's effects will remain marginal as levels progress. For example sucking off charges from that wand of magic missile to get +1 to attack from Arcane Accuracy, or relegating a 1st level spell at 15+ level play.

I don't maybe I'm getting the wrong impression but something about the class says "expedable depletion."

"Hey Wizzy old boy, you ever going to use that wand of feather fall we found ages ago? No? How about you toss my way and can put it to some productive use."

Keep it limited to 1/2 level + Int in charges/scrolls per day. With it's limited spell altoment a Magus should be encouraged to be packing expendable spell resources anyways.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Interesting.. I had an idea similar to this early on that I have been considering revisiting.

Probably a great idea, since it appears the Magus suffers from the 15 minute workday otherwise. I doubt anybody wants a return to that.


TLO3 wrote:

Okay, it seems that it's becoming very apparant that the magus is going to be spellslot starved. To many class abilities (read: all) involve burning a spellslot.

I suggest giving the magus an arcane pool, similar to a monk's ki pool. Let them use that to power their arcana instead of spellslots. You could also do something similar to monks giving a benifit to having points remaining in the ki pool... maybe +1 force damage as long as 1 point is remaining, either increasing or adding different bene's at higher levels.

Good


Dorje Sylas wrote:
Let him eat scrolls and wands. A set pool limit would be interesting, but the actual resource expenditure should be drawn from expendables in some fashion.

too good and too Silly


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Very cool idea. This would hopefully also free up his swift actions so he could still use arcane strike which would help his combat abilities.


TLO3 wrote:

Okay, it seems that it's becoming very apparant that the magus is going to be spellslot starved. To many class abilities (read: all) involve burning a spellslot.

I suggest giving the magus an arcane pool, similar to a monk's ki pool. Let them use that to power their arcana instead of spellslots. You could also do something similar to monks giving a benifit to having points remaining in the ki pool... maybe +1 force damage as long as 1 point is remaining, either increasing or adding different bene's at higher levels.

I really like this idea.

My thoughts:

1) Have the points based on 3+INT+2/lvl

2) The bonus gained = points spent, with a cap = to the highest lvl spells you can cast.

3) Give abilities like Arcane Accuracy a duration in rnds=INT mod

This would make the Arcana abilities into powerful self-buffs instead of a great way to waste away all your spells.

Edit= you could also maybe allow them to be dropped at a rate of 1 per 2d6 into a generic Spellstrike type attack.


How bout letting him craft charges of spells he knows into his bonded weapon on the cheap.

can add 10 charges to a weapon , the spell works at his caster level and can be drawn on during spell combat

Level 1 spell costs 50 gold = 5gp/cast
Level 2 spell costs 150 gold = 15gp/cast
Level 3 spell costs 450 gold = 45gp/cast
Level 4 spell costs 800 gold = 80gp/cast
Level 5 spell costs 1250 gold = 125gp/cast
Level 6 spell costs 1800 gold = 180gp/cast

To change a spell or recharge you have to scrap the remaining spells in the item losing the gold value and then add 10 new charges at the above listed price.

power check
10 times per day Magus could have true strike on one of his attack rolls for 5gp per use.

of course if he has true strike on here he doesn't have another higher level spell like fireball


Phasics wrote:

How bout letting him craft charges of spells he knows into his bonded weapon on the cheap.

can add 10 charges to a weapon , the spell works at his caster level and can be drawn on during spell combat

Level 1 spell costs 50 gold = 5gp/cast
Level 2 spell costs 150 gold = 15gp/cast
Level 3 spell costs 450 gold = 45gp/cast
Level 4 spell costs 800 gold = 80gp/cast
Level 5 spell costs 1250 gold = 125gp/cast
Level 6 spell costs 1800 gold = 180gp/cast

To change a spell or recharge you have to scrap the remaining spells in the item losing the gold value and then add 10 new charges at the above listed price.

power check
10 times per day Magus could have true strike on one of his attack rolls for 5gp per use.

of course if he has true strike on here he doesn't have another higher level spell like fireball

Seems like an intersting idea, but the point of the pool is for powering the arcana abilities. I guess either way it would help with the limited resource issue.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I like this idea.

Level + Int mod points per day.

Certain more powerful Magus Arcana can be balanced by costing a certain amount of arcana points. That means that they will scale better with levels instead of being stuck with x/day (unless they really need balanced against that).

You could burn points to do elemental attacks with your weapon adding damage.

Summoning your weapon as per Weapon Bond would also cost arcana points.


slicertool wrote:

I like this idea.

Level + Int mod points per day.

Certain more powerful Magus Arcana can be balanced by costing a certain amount of arcana points. That means that they will scale better with levels instead of being stuck with x/day (unless they really need balanced against that).

You could burn points to do elemental attacks with your weapon adding damage.

Summoning your weapon as per Weapon Bond would also cost arcana points.

Ooo! I like adding weapon bond into the mix. :)

Just don't make it cost too much, or people will sit on a big pile of points 'just in case'. Of course, at 19th lvl, it's not coming up that often.


thing I don't like about a point pool is that you've now got two resources to manage which are both basically giving you the same thing

there has to be an easier way.

lol dare i suggest the old psionic power pool system hehehe *runs*

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I like the idea of an Arcana Pool of 1/2 level + Int bonus. The points could be used to fuel magus arcana, OR spent to cast spells, with 1 point equal to 1 spell level....and the spell must be prepared still, so casting it normally would remove it as an option for that day.

This would allow the Magus to use shocking grasp pretty consistently, but not TOO consistently.

EDIT:

And the Arcane Pool reserve power could be +1 to the Save DC of the Magus's spells, which will be relatively lower than average since it will max out at 16 + Int bonus instead of 19 + Int bonus.

Or there can be a variety of Arcane Reserve Powers, like a bonus to damage, access to a special class feature, a +1 on Saves, +1 on AC, +1 on Concentration checks, access to a bonus feat, etc. etc.

Cheliax

SmiloDan wrote:

I like the idea of an Arcana Pool of 1/2 level + Int bonus. The points could be used to fuel magus arcana, OR spent to cast spells, with 1 point equal to 1 spell level....and the spell must be prepared still, so casting it normally would remove it as an option for that day.

This would allow the Magus to use shocking grasp pretty consistently, but not TOO consistently.

EDIT:

And the Arcane Pool reserve power could be +1 to the Save DC of the Magus's spells, which will be relatively lower than average since it will max out at 16 + Int bonus instead of 19 + Int bonus.

Or there can be a variety of Arcane Reserve Powers, like a bonus to damage, access to a special class feature, a +1 on Saves, +1 on AC, +1 on Concentration checks, access to a bonus feat, etc. etc.

Wouldn't that make the magus a spontaneous caster?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
nightflier wrote:
Wouldn't that make the magus a spontaneous caster?

It would... well... unless you prepared spells that added up to your points, but that's getting tedious and you wouldn't necessarily be able to cast everything you prepared.


nightflier wrote:
Wouldn't that make the magus a spontaneous caster?

Only for about 4 spells. :/ Unless you make it scale so that 1 point is worth more than 1 spell lvl eventually, the points in such a small pool wouldn't be terribly helpful.

I'm not a big fan of allowing spells with points, either.


I think I rather like the idea of an Arcana Pool to power his Magus Arcana abilities instead of burning spell slots one after the other.

I do not like, however, the idea of draining wands and scrolls to power the Magus Arcana abilities. The mental image of a Magus carrying a wagon-load of said items kinda takes form in my mind.

Disclaimer: The hyperbole is intentional by the way for a bit of comedic effect in case someone takes it too seriously.. :-)


points to augment casting ?

no really are we talking psionics now ? sure sounds like it


Phasics wrote:

thing I don't like about a point pool is that you've now got two resources to manage which are both basically giving you the same thing

there has to be an easier way.

It wouldn't be that much to manage. Most pathfinder character sheets out there have both sections for spells and for tracking misc points (rage rounds, ki pool, bard song, etc.)

Personally I think the magus should be an int based spontaneous caster which would do away with some of the bookkeeping, but that's an argument for a different thread. ;)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I was thinking the Magus can be a prepared spell caster as is, and then have some additional flexibility by having the pool of arcane points. He can choose to spend the arcane points to power magus arcana abilities, or spend them to cast a prepared spell for "free."

There would also be a variety of Arcane Reserve Powers that are accessible as long as at least one point remains in the Arcane Pool, such as adding +1 to the Save DC of the magus's spells.

There could even be a magus arcana that gives the Magus a second Arcane Reserve Power.

For example, a 1st level magus with a 14 Int would have an arcana pool of 2, the +1 DC Arcane Reserve Power, and be able to prepare 2 first level spells per day, say color spray and shocking grasp. He could choose to spend 1 of his arcana pool points to cast either color spray or shocking grasp, and still have both color spray and shocking grasp prepared. Now the Magus has 2 spells prepared and 1 point remaining in his Arcane Pool. If he spends the Arcane Point to cast a spell, he loses access to his Arcane Reserve Power. If he casts the spell using the spell slot, he cannot cast it later that day using an Arcane Pool Point.


I agree with whats been said already, the way the current arcanas work doesn´t really appeal to me especially since a lot of them are just ways to burn through your spells faster...

+1 on pretty much everything.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

SmiloDan wrote:

He can choose to spend the arcane points to power magus arcana abilities, or spend them to cast a prepared spell for "free."

Off Topic:
An arcana pool that worked like that would work exceptionally well with a full BAB half caster. The ability to burn arcana to cast free spells would let a half-caster magus cast more spells per day than a paladin or ranger, provided he chose to use his arcana for that instead of melee buffs. But the slower access to high-level spells would keep him from burning a huge percentage of his arcana on a single, powerful spell.

The arcana pool idea is interesting, but I still think having the various magus abilities being always on is a much better way to go (for abilities like arcane strike) and other abilities need to be more than once per day, maybe three times a day or possibly one + the intelligence modifier per day. As is the magus is a terribly weak class compared to the others.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like the idea of an arcana pool, with arcane points, but not to power casting. Reduce his spell slots to a 2/3rds prepared class spells per day, and give him a pool similar to the ki pool to power his arcana.

Spell points are very hard to balance out at 1 per level. The spell point system in unearthed arcana used 1/3/5/7/etc for a reason.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Tales Subscriber

I love this idea i was just thinking of it today. It could be used to even fuel the magus arcana abilities instead of once a day uses. Maybe instead of a wizard/fighter build Paizo should look to a sorcerrer/monk build. This would be different from the EK. I still think Paizo needs to think of the Magus not as a xx/yy class, which it is in its current version and try to give it some of it's own flavor. Right now it is just a metamagic spell machine.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Hm. If an arcana pool (say, level + Int arcana points like an alchemist's bombs) was gained at 1st level and came with a default use that costs 1 arcana point, that would give a 1st-level magus something more to do than just cast spells and hit things. That would be interesting.

Cheliax

This is not the appropriate thread, but how about something that lets magus use Intelligence to determine attack and damage bonus instead of Strength?


One way to avoid the Arcana Pool turning the magus into a spontaneous caster is to simply allow him to use Arcana points to prepare slots without rest, just as a wizard can by failing to allocate. So spending Arcana points can turn an expended spell slot into an unexpended but empty slot that must still be filled by mid-day spell preparation.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

I'm liking the flavour of this idea since it seems that, handled well, it would clean up problems i have with the flavour of the class being a prepared caster. - Here's my take: At the start of the day the Magus casts and stores spells in her weapon which may then be used throughout the day - should the Magus lose her weapon these spells are lost until the Magus bonds with a new weapon. - The reason i like this is that i have flavour problems with the Magus being a bookworm, this way it could have spontaneous flavour with prepared machanics.

This would also have the benefit of allowing two-handed or dual-wielding magi from a flavour POV (if the devs wanted to include these as options) since the magus would not be casting the spell during combat - just releasing it.

thoughts?


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Guys a made a Magus class write up inspired by this thread and a couple others if you want to comment and help me balance it so it can be seriously considered as an alternative.

Here is the link


And if they receive a Wizard School, besides other unique abilities (per school, in addition to normal wizard school powers), I could see this affecting their ´reserve´ Ki ability (alterate usage they can switch at will, or additional effect?)... And WHY NOT, giving them unique usages for EXPENDING their Ki Points in the first place.


AvalonXQ wrote:
One way to avoid the Arcana Pool turning the magus into a spontaneous caster is to simply allow him to use Arcana points to prepare slots without rest, just as a wizard can by failing to allocate. So spending Arcana points can turn an expended spell slot into an unexpended but empty slot that must still be filled by mid-day spell preparation.

A Magus should already be able to allocate empty slots throughout a day. That should be default as a Prepared Arcane caster. Unless you mean he can use Arcana points to reduce the time it takes to fill those slots.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
AvalonXQ wrote:
So spending Arcana points can turn an expended spell slot into an unexpended but empty slot that must still be filled by mid-day spell preparation.
Unless you mean he can use Arcana points to reduce the time it takes to fill those slots.

He´s talking about the Arcana Points being used convert/´refresh´ an expended slot into an ´unused´/empty slots, which must still be prepared just like any other empty slot and then separately cast (instead of instantly manifesting any known spell, i.e. Spontaneous Casting like a Bonded Item). In addition to other presumably Su usages of the points, and the ´Reserve´ benefit of having remaining points, so there´s a trade-off between extra spells and those other benefits.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
AvalonXQ wrote:
One way to avoid the Arcana Pool turning the magus into a spontaneous caster is to simply allow him to use Arcana points to prepare slots without rest, just as a wizard can by failing to allocate. So spending Arcana points can turn an expended spell slot into an unexpended but empty slot that must still be filled by mid-day spell preparation.
A Magus should already be able to allocate empty slots throughout a day. That should be default as a Prepared Arcane caster. Unless you mean he can use Arcana points to reduce the time it takes to fill those slots.

Was I really not clear? Use Arcana Points to turn expended slots into unexpended, empty slots that can then be filled by preparation without rest as normal.

Example: A Magus casts a level 2 spell; he now has an expended level 2 spell slot. Later, he spends 2 Arcana Points to "refresh" this slot, and 15 minutes to prepare another level 2 spell into that slot.


Refreshing Arcana: When preparing spells without rest, a Magus can prepare a spell into an expended spell slot as though it had been left empty. Each spell prepared this way uses one Arcana Point per level of the spell.


From my recent playtest, a sizeable "arcana pool" or spellslot reservoir is really all the Magus needs to become effective. But when I say sizeable, I really mean it. I found myself thinking at the end of the session that if I hadn't spent a LARGE amount of cash on pearls of power, my experience would have been ALOT less fun. Given how dependent the Magus is on burning spell slots, I would even go so far as to propose that for every spell he prepares, he should get a corresponding generic spell-slot of equivalent level that can only be used for powering arcana, and that spells and item effects that restore his prepared spells (like pearls of power) should restore those generic spell-slots as well.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

If the magus really needs such a large pool for arcana, I suppose you could rename it "arcane stance" and make it rounds per day (6+Int at 1st level +2 per additional level). I don't know that he needs that much, but it's an option.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think it might be neat to be able to spend some Arcane Points to NOT use up a prepared spell slot.

For example, a 1st level magus with Int 15 would begin with 2 arcane points (1/2 level + Int bonus). He can prepare 2 first level spells per day, say shield and shocking grasp. He can spend an Arcane Point to cast shocking grasp, and still keep it prepared. This gives a little versatility and longevity to the magus.

And compare it to a 1st level rogue, who can sneak attack for +1d6 all day long. Letting a 1st level magus shocking grasp 3 or 4 times a day isn't broken in comparison, right?


If points in the "Arcana Pool" and spell slots can be converted 1-to-1, you could just drop the Arcana Pool and give him more spell slots.

Personally, I like the idea of the Pool powering the Magus Arcana, but I don't like the idea of converting points to spells.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I was thinking the Arcana Pool Points costing 1 point per spell level, so a 6th level spell would cost 6 Arcana Pool Points. So, the Arcana Pool Points would mostly be used for low level spells or the Magus Arcana powers.


I won't even try to come up with a balanced way to implement this, but in general I think this is a GREAT idea.

If the Magus in his current form is out of spells, he can't do anything and is basically reduced to normal attacks (albeit with a decent weapon thanks to Arcane Weapon). Especialy at low levels he just burns out WAY too fast.

All other "half-casters" have the same amount of spells, but - unlike the curren Magus - they also have abilities that work totally independent of their spell pool. I'm talking about stuff like bardic performance, judgement, Eidolon/Summon Monster (Sp), bombs and mutagens. None of these require the other classes to have any spells left to cast. On top of that, most of these classes have more skill points than a Magus, giving them more stuff to do outside of combat.

Almost all of the Magus Arcanas either expend or alter spells, making them useless as soon as the Magus' spell pool for any given day is expended. Even though I can see Spell Combat being use- and powerful at decent levels (maybe around level 8+), having almost all class abilities linked directly to the number of available spells seems too limiting.


-1

Do. Not. Want.

I am baffled that so many posters are supporting this idea. We do not need Arcana Points/Dots/Slots.

You know what's simple and flavorful?

A Magus cast a 2nd level spell, his/her arcana triggers and gives him a +2 to hit for a minute. You make it an arcane bonus so it doesn't stack with itself, but does with everything else. You make arcana's for damage, for AC and for saves.

A Magus walks into a bar, cast 2 or 3 spells and is a combat machine for a whole minute.

No expending spell slots for minor bonus', no 3+x times a day. If a Magus is casting spells, it's so he can rock the melee for the rest of the combat.

Keep. It. Simple.


Hexcaliber wrote:


Keep. It. Simple.

Personally, I think passively adding effects to spells being cast is more awkward than having simple rules for arcana expenditure. Besides, there might be times when you want a spell without an arcana benefit, or vice versa.


IMO, +1 or maybe +2. I hope the Dev's actually follow through on this and add it in.

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