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Redeeming a Quasit


Rise of the Runelords

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, my players captured Erylium alive instead of killing her, and they decided not to tell anyone in town about her. I think they felt sad for her being locked up in the catacombs for thousands of years until she basically developed a serious case of agoraphobia and was willing to help any jerk who came along and offered to hang out with her. I haven't managed to impress on them that she's basically the demon equivalent of an imp, and they basically just see her as a sort-of-demonic Tinkerbell with bad PTSD. Only the Lawful Good monk and the true Neutral druid wanted her destroyed, and they both backed off pretty fast; the monk when he saw that the rest of the party was buying her "Please don't hurt me! I'm just misguided!" stuff, and the druid because he wasn't really that invested in it to begin with.

So now the party has a quasit locked in a cold iron cage, with a *really* good lock, and under occasional surveillance, with the threat to take away her reading material if she acts up or to drag her kicking and screaming to the surface if she tries to escape. The party rogue just learned magic from her (since she was a familiar back in Alaznist's time, I figured it was reasonable that she could teach the groundwork for wizardry) and the rest of the party is starting to lower their guard a little bit. They know she's terrified of the surface, so they're pretty confident that she won't try to escape--and where would she even go if they did?

The party consists of: a LG human monk (drunken master), a N dwarf druid (cave druid), a CN human rogue (sniper), a CG half-orc barbarian (drunken brute), a CG elf cleric (of Calistria), and a NG halfling summoner (replacing a NG halfling oracle of waves). The oracle is leaving the party, and the player has discussed her plan with me to basically spend all her spare time with the quasit, trying to convert her away from her evil ways. The monk is against it, but he's willing to let her try. The elven priestess was sort of against letting her live in the first place, but she thinks that turning an evil creature good is better revenge than death, so she's all for it.

Generally speaking, I'm a GM who believes in saying "yes" to his players whenever possible and letting the "rule of cool" win out over the rules. Still, the idea of converting a quasit from evil seems... well, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but the whole thing seems weird.

To be fair: Erylium's writeup does emphasize that she's basically crazy and lonely after being stuck in the Catacombs of Wrath for so long. The party spared her life, didn't harm her, didn't threaten her, and is actively trying to be nice to her (even if they won't let her leave). I can entirely see a truly evil being deciding that they're just trying to soften her up, or that their kindness is just a sign of their weakness, but that's kind of unsatisfying--to the player who asked me about it, and to the group as a whole.

Overall, they've been *really* good about capturing their enemies alive and bringing them before the law, and even about showing lenience whenever possible. It almost feels like if I have Erylium just use them and turn bad again as soon as she's free that I'm punishing them for that attitude, when it's exactly the sort of mentality I want to encourage. I don't want a game filled with loot-grubbing land pirates; I want *heroes*, people who actually think about the morality of killing their enemies and can show mercy, even to people who don't necessarily "deserve" it.

So really, I guess I'm asking: Should it be possible to redeem a quasit? And what happens if it is? Opinions are welcome from both sides of the argument, as is anything I'm missing. More than anything else, I think it's an interesting philosophical question, and one that is interesting to think about as a GM.

Thanks,
Jeremy Puckett

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You say the PCs didn't harm her; how exactly did they capture her?

That would have a large bearing on her attitude.
Even if they used subdual damage, grappling, or a disabling spell, I'd still think she'd consider that as an assault of some kind.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
hida_jiremi wrote:

So really, I guess I'm asking: Should it be possible to redeem a quasit? And what happens if it is? Opinions are welcome from both sides of the argument, as is anything I'm missing. More than anything else, I think it's an interesting philosophical question, and one that is interesting to think about as a GM.

Just my opinion here:

Yes. It's possible, but it is most likely an incredibly rare and precious thing when it happens. If celestials can fall, fiends can rise.

That, and not all souls claimed by the Abyss and Hell that are twisted into fiends are rightfully damned. On top of those souls who came close to redemption but fell short, there are also those who were tricked or coerced into signing their souls away, those whose souls were taken by force(see the Balor Lord's Swallow Soul ability for example), some of those who had the bad luck of dying in the Abyss, sacrifice victims, and so on and so forth.

There is also precedent for redeemed fiends in Golarion canon, with risen fiends being referred to explicitly in a sidebar elaborating on why fiends and intelligent undead can be redeemed while non-intelligent undead are perfectly A-OK to kill on sight. There have also been numerous examples in D&D before Pathfinder, particularly in Planescape. Also, Kobold Quarterly's article on Adriel, Angel of Hope and her risen fiend followers is well worth a look.

That said, it is rare. And should require a spark of conscience, regret, and/or hope that the Abyss or Hell couldn't quite beat out of them.

As for what happens when a fiend is redeemed? No hard rules. One can look at fallen angel examples for what mechanics and features should be tweaked by default. Some folks have risen fiends keeping their basic forms and many abilities while losing those that are inherently evil, while others have each risen fiend(and fallen angel) become a new being entirely, either something new and possibly unique or some form of celestial. I tend to keep them close to their original forms, losing inherently evil powers, replacing them with good counterparts(eventually, after they've been earned), and a few aesthetic tweaks here and there. A redeemed gelugon is still going to look DAMN freaky and alien, but a quite a bit less outwardly malevolent in appearance than he was before.

One thing I've always leaned towards when a fiend is going through the process is that it hurts once they become fully capable of feeling guilt and remorse. No end of drama that can come out of that.

Last thing, there's a spell from the Book of Exalted Deeds called sanctify the wicked, which pretty much imprisons an evil creature for a year or so and essentially, by mechanics, forces a change to a good alignment and good suptype. Fluff-wise this is explained by them being forced to face their misdeeds and contemplate what they have done, and what they could become. A lot of people have a dim view of the spell, pretty much seeing it as the evil spell mindrape with a "good" spell descriptor tacked on. I have to admit I don't like the notion of a spell being capable of forcing a creature to be good being used on creatures with free will and being cast by ostensibly good people. What I've done is this:

Redemption is hard. There's no quick and easy fix. They're going to have to go through all the hardships and the guilt, and someone is going to need to help them through that. There will be some creatures, like fiends, whose physical and spiritual makeup is infused with evil despite their newfound goodness. For some this causes constant pain, for some it causes trouble for them being on planes more fitting for their nature. Sanctify the wicked can be used to...pretty much sanctify the wicked. It "recalibrates" their physical and spiritual makeup towards good, to match the alignment that they've struggled to embrace. The spell can't be used on unwilling targets. The target has to truly desire redemption for it to work. If they don't, it just fizzles. Or does damage. So there's no using the spell on every fiend, vampire, efreet, or whatever and redeeming everything you hit. It just helps when you have a being that you manage to get on the road to redemption.

Spoiler:
Man if your players are trying to redeem Elyrium, Nualia's going to drive them to tears! Maybe they can shoot for a group project. ;)

Also, those sound like some really great players.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Snorter wrote:

You say the PCs didn't harm her; how exactly did they capture her?

That would have a large bearing on her attitude.
Even if they used subdual damage, grappling, or a disabling spell, I'd still think she'd consider that as an assault of some kind.

Let me rephrase: Didn't harm her more than necessary after she jumped them first. And actually used healing magic on her afterwards. They didn't torture her or anything! =3

Jeremy Puckett

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:


There is also precedent for redeemed fiends in Golarion canon, with risen fiends being referred to explicitly in a sidebar elaborating on why fiends and intelligent undead can be redeemed while non-intelligent undead are perfectly A-OK to kill on sight.

This I didn't know about. I must have missed that sidebar somewhere. What book, pray tell?

Honestly, hearing that there's canon precedent takes a lot of worry off my shoulders about the whole thing. I like running with my players' weirdness, but I really wasn't certain how Golarion viewed evil outsiders, in a metaphysical sense.

Mikaze wrote:


As for what happens when a fiend is redeemed? No hard rules. One can look at fallen angel examples for what mechanics and features should be tweaked by default.

*nods* I was seriously considering having her turn into a lantern archon when she was redeemed, if it happens at all. Or maybe just having her reincarnate as a mortal so she can have a second chance at it all.

Mikaze wrote:


Man if your players are trying to redeem Elyrium, Nualia's going to drive them to tears! Maybe they can shoot for a group project. ;)

Sadly, they weren't able to save Nualia. They offered her the chance to surrender several times, but she always refused, and a lucky crit while she was at 2 hit points took her life. They were actually really upset about the whole thing, and they brought her body back to Father Zantus to be properly interred in her family crypt, so that maybe she could finally find peace.

Since the party monk's wife was killed by the Chopper while he was off at sea, there was a real "There, but for the grace of god, go I" moment when they found out that Nualia's change and the Chopper's rampage were both caused by the runewell activating. He blanched a little at the idea that if he had been home, the runewell could just as easily have changed him (it's not quite true, of course, but he thinks it is). The party have all sworn to find what started this whole thing and stop it forever, no matter how far it takes them.

Mikaze wrote:


Also, those sound like some really great players.

They really are. ^_^

Jeremy Puckett

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
hida_jiremi wrote:
Mikaze wrote:


There is also precedent for redeemed fiends in Golarion canon, with risen fiends being referred to explicitly in a sidebar elaborating on why fiends and intelligent undead can be redeemed while non-intelligent undead are perfectly A-OK to kill on sight.

This I didn't know about. I must have missed that sidebar somewhere. What book, pray tell?

Honestly, hearing that there's canon precedent takes a lot of worry off my shoulders about the whole thing. I like running with my players' weirdness, but I really wasn't certain how Golarion viewed evil outsiders, in a metaphysical sense.

Classic Horrors Revisited. I think it's under the Walking Dead entry, written in-character by some scholar or another. I could be wrong about the location, but it's definitely in that book.

I don't think there have been any specific redeemed fiends shown in canon yet though...

edit-wait a sec. Not redeemed as in GOOD, but....there are succubi and possibly other demons that serve Calistria. Calistria lives in Elysium. Therefore... :O

I've asked about this situation before, with CN succubi interacting with CG Damn Near Most Of Elysium's Populace, and the only answer I've gotten from...I think it was Todd Stewart, was that they didn't leave Calistria's realm much, and that they were some variant type of succubi. Whether they were always that way or if they were CE succubi that became something else, I don't know.

hida_jiremi wrote:

Sadly, they weren't able to save Nualia. They offered her the chance to surrender several times, but she always refused, and a lucky crit while she was at 2 hit points took her life. They were actually really upset about the whole thing, and they brought her body back to Father Zantus to be properly interred in her family crypt, so that maybe she could finally find peace.

Since the party monk's wife was killed by the Chopper while he was off at sea, there was a real "There, but for the grace of god, go I" moment when they found out that Nualia's change and the Chopper's rampage were both caused by the runewell activating. He blanched a little at the idea that if he had been home, the runewell could just as easily have changed him (it's not quite true, of course, but he thinks it is). The party have all sworn to find what started this whole...

Dude, those are fantastic players. :D

Just a heads-up!

Spoiler:
One poster here, I think it was Mary Yamato, had a party that was dragging Aldern Foxglove, post ghasting, around on a journey for redemption. The freaking Skinsaw Man! I'm curious to hear how that goes for your group. ;)

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
(spoiler omitted)

Oh wow, that's cool! My players hated Aldern (even after he gave them horses), so we'll see how that goes. ;)

Jeremy Puckett

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I love my players to death. And we'll see how things go in part 2, since they hated Aldern in part 1 (even after he gave them all horses). XD

Jeremy Puckett


I have read all the posts so far and I have to agree w/ you those are some awesome players you have.

However it's time to throw a little reality on the nature of "evil"

The quasit maybe crazy now with a true and honest hope for redemption because of her being nuttier than a squirrel turd BUT what happens when she gets her faculties back.
Maybe she was rightfully punished in her previous life for doing everything from drugs,pre-marital sex to killing her newborn children due to neglect, she may have been a spy that delighted in selling information to start and forment chaos for chaoses sake.
Your story sounds very nice and the players are all of "good" alignment but even goodness knows that there are those that willingly choose to follow and do evil for evils sake. In other words somethings cannot be redeemed no matter how much we wish it otherwise.

I'm playing in a campaign where the DM is setting me and another player up for one of us to kill the other. Im a neutral good assimar cleric of pelor and my friend took a homebrew prestige class the DM cooked up and wanted play tested. One of the class features is the ability to summon an Imp as a familiar. I told the blood magus that if he did it would be an evil act and I would kill the creature on site.
What he doesn't know is if he does it more than once I will armor up and kill the charecter or be killed to stop him from calling evil creatures onto the home plane. I have told our DM this and have asked for RP guidence to see if I am playing the charecter correctly but he's a new GM and won't say anything because I really think he wants the showdown between us to happen. I have killed other player charecters before and it never ends well for anybody.
Any outside advice for this dillema?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Steven Tindall wrote:

However it's time to throw a little reality on the nature of "evil"

The quasit maybe crazy now with a true and honest hope for redemption because of her being nuttier than a squirrel turd BUT what happens when she gets her faculties back.
Maybe she was rightfully punished in her previous life for doing everything from drugs,pre-marital sex to killing her newborn children due to neglect, she may have been a spy that delighted in selling information to start and forment chaos for chaoses sake.
Your story sounds very nice and the players are all of "good" alignment but even goodness knows that there are those that willingly choose to follow and do evil for evils sake. In other words somethings cannot be redeemed no matter how much we wish it otherwise.

I think you just convinced me to allow it. This sort of "some people are just beyond redemption" attitude is everything I stand against--as a writer, as a GM, and as a person. And listing drugs and premartial sex as ways to get condemned to eternity as a tormented soul are not exactly ways to get on my good side either.

You're right: there are bad people out there. In the context of a fantasy setting, some of them get rightly judged by a higher power, and some don't but just wind up punished anyway. As was pointed out by Mikaze, there are plenty of ways to wind up in hell even if you're not a bad person, everything from being tricked by a fiend to having your soul eaten by a balor and crapped out as a new demon. Saying "no more chances for you!" is a little bit absolutist considering that souls clearly exist, and that consciousness continues past death--two things that we have no clear answers for in the real world.

My biggest concern was not "is this feasible?" but "does this somehow violate the metaphysics of the setting?" From everything I've seen so far, it does not. (Thanks again, Mikaze, for the nod at that sidebar.)

Being good means, to some degree, being forgiving. That's not the be-all and end-all of the alignment, but it's a definite part of it, and one that too many people--yourself included, apparently--forget about. In her previous life, Erylium could have been any of the things you listed... or she might not have been. That's irrelevant. What matters is now and whether or not it's possible right now to offer a fiend a new chance at being good.

I say yes. Yes, it is possible. Thank you for helping me decide by reminding me why I shouldn't decide the other way.

PS: I do not want to debate with you about your beliefs, about your religion, about anything relating to the real world. You've stated your opinion. I've stated why I disagree with you. Anything else is not an appropriate topic for this forum. If you want to continue debating about the metaphysics of the game world, I am happy to do so. If you want to argue about the real world, please leave it at the door.

Jeremy Puckett

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Steven Tindall wrote:

I'm playing in a campaign where the DM is setting me and another player up for one of us to kill the other. Im a neutral good assimar cleric of pelor and my friend took a homebrew prestige class the DM cooked up and wanted play tested. One of the class features is the ability to summon an Imp as a familiar. I told the blood magus that if he did it would be an evil act and I would kill the creature on site.

What he doesn't know is if he does it more than once I will armor up and kill the charecter or be killed to stop him from calling evil creatures onto the home plane. I have told our DM this and have asked for RP guidence to see if I am playing the charecter correctly but he's a new GM and won't say anything because I really think he wants the showdown between us to happen. I have killed other player charecters before and it never ends well for anybody.
Any outside advice for this dillema?

The actions you're describing for your character aren't good. They're chaotic neutral, at best. Threatening your party members--ostensibly your friends--into doing what you want is very far from the ideals of good. If you want to be good-aligned, then you should discuss the matter rationally, not lay threats. Deciding secretly that you're going to kill the other character is plotting murder over a philosophical difference--does that sound like a good action to you? If so, we might have incompatible ideas of what "good aligned" means.

My advice: Be reasonable. Talk to the other character, and to his player. Discuss why you think this is a bad idea, and what you can do to work around it. Worse come to worst, then you should leave the party.

Killing the imp? Maybe. But killing another person for one infraction, one they thought was minor and that didn't directly harm anyone? No, absolutely not. If I were your GM, you might be finding the G on your character sheet erased and replaced with an E.

Jeremy Puckett


A quasit is a demon. They are made from the very essence of evil. They have no soul, they feel no regret for harming others. They're not evil, they are evil given form.
Just my take on things.

Contributor

If literary and theological precedent mean anything, your characters are going about this the right way, because the only way a damned spirit gets saved is the redemptive power of love.

I mean, look at these examples:

Faust: (plays, opera, silent movie, etc.) The old scholar, Faust, sells his soul to Mephisto for youth. However, when young again, he falls in love, and it's true love too. When he dies, Heaven and Hell get into a tug of war for his soul, Hell with the power of the contract, Heaven with the power of love. Depending on the version, the outcome is either left ambiguous or with Heaven winning.

The Little Mermaid: In the original Hans Christian Andersen version, a soulless watersprite falls for a prince. She endures pain and torture to be with him, but he falls in love with another princess. The little mermaid is then told that if she just kills him, she can go back to being a mermaid. She commits suicide instead, rather than kill the prince. God then doesn't give her a soul, but makes her one of the spirits of the air where after another 500 years of community service, she may finally earn a soul (something no other mermaid has done before).

Griffelkin: The opera, and the later Disney version "H-E Double Hockey Sticks," has a little imp who's supposed to be doing bad but instead ends up doing good and is subsequently kicked out of Hell. In the opera, he becomes a child. In Disney tv movie, he becomes an angel.

The whole "irredeemably evil" trope goes counter to the trope--and for that matter theology--about the redemptive power of love.

Of course, what I would personally do with the quasit if the players played their cards right is having them earn her a chance to drink from the waters of Lethe, forgetting both her evil existence as a quasit and the going mad part, and then get reincarnated as a new being--maybe a tiefling or a fiend-blooded sorcerer, but at least something with a more decent chance of redemption a la the little mermaid, since it should be remembered that the party is interceding on the quasit's behalf.

Grand Lodge

I wish my players were as good as yours... While I have a few that really will fight for that, generally they will only put their chips in if they have sufficient evidence that there is something to redeem.

Upon stumbling across Nualia's journal, they found enough there to save her, and even had a Cleric of Cayden perform a ritual to free her from her pact with Lamashtu.

However, they haven't been so forgiving to others... and hate Erylium, though she hasn't shown up for a while.

I tend to see the world (especially my campaign world) in shades of gray. There are always bits of good in everyone, just as there is the capacity for evil in everyone. That is the flavor that I try to convey, though it hasn't always worked out that way!

Good luck, and I hope that you figure out the best way to handle it without smacking the players down for behaving just they way you want...

I wish I could play with that group... *grumble grumble* ^_^

Grand Lodge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


The whole "irredeemably evil" trope goes counter to the trope--and for that matter theology--about the redemptive power of love.

Of course, what I would personally do with the quasit if the players played their cards right is having them earn her a chance to drink from the waters of Lethe, forgetting both her evil existence as a quasit and the going mad part, and then get reincarnated as a new being--maybe a tiefling or a fiend-blooded sorcerer, but at least something with a more decent chance of redemption a la the little mermaid, since it should be remembered that the...

That's a pretty good idea...


I'd allow it because it makes a good story, and they obviously want to. The Lantern Archon idea is a good one! You could even have the quasit eventually remember its former life - when it was a decent person sacrificed to demons! Then, when the group's in serious need, the forces of good do right by them in turn ... because that's the way good rolls.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
PlungingForward wrote:
I'd allow it because it makes a good story, and they obviously want to. The Lantern Archon idea is a good one! You could even have the quasit eventually remember its former life - when it was a decent person sacrificed to demons! Then, when the group's in serious need, the forces of good do right by them in turn ... because that's the way good rolls.

The further along I go, the more I think that Erylium really was a bad person in life... and that it doesn't matter. If the characters want to attempt to redeem her, that's more important than any evils she might have committed to get herself turned into a monster. After all, even an evil person might have repented given a longer life, different circumstances, whatever. Where you go at death in a fantasy cosmology really only checks what your alignment was at the moment of death, not what you spent the majority of your life as, or what you might have been on the way to becoming.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread so far. Some really great ideas in here.

Jeremy Puckett


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


Faust: (plays, opera, silent movie, etc.) The old scholar, Faust, sells his soul to Mephisto for youth. However, when young again, he falls in love, and it's true love too. When he dies, Heaven and Hell get into a tug of war for his soul, Hell with the power of the contract, Heaven with the power of love. Depending on the version, the outcome is either left ambiguous or with Heaven winning.

I don't think we're familiar with the same versions of Faust. Though as I check the Internet, I see there is a version that has the happy ending with angels intervening. The version I'm familiar with has the girl die, but her soul is saved, while Faust is damned.

Anyway, to the original question. It's your game, have the redemption work or fail as you see fit. However, perhaps I'm just grouchy, but PCs don't always have to succeed, no matter how good their intentions are.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you want to play out the redemption of the quasit, make it difficult. Make it last for many sessions, probably the rest of the AP. Let the quasit just be manipulating them for a while, then maybe actually be inspired, then backslide, the whole works. Drive them nuts with it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
wspatterson wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


Faust: (plays, opera, silent movie, etc.) The old scholar, Faust, sells his soul to Mephisto for youth. However, when young again, he falls in love, and it's true love too. When he dies, Heaven and Hell get into a tug of war for his soul, Hell with the power of the contract, Heaven with the power of love. Depending on the version, the outcome is either left ambiguous or with Heaven winning.

I don't think we're familiar with the same versions of Faust. Though as I check the Internet, I see there is a version that has the happy ending with angels intervening. The version I'm familiar with has the girl die, but her soul is saved, while Faust is damned.

I think he's referring to Goethe's Faust, the German play adaptation which had the happiest ending of the bunch.

It was also adapted to a pair of awesome concept albums by Kamelot: Epica and The Black Halo.

On the matter of theologic precendence for risen fiends, I've been a fan of Origen for a long time. Basically his view on the matter was that anyone, including demons and even Lucifer could be redeemed. Or rather, inevitably would be redeemed.

I have to admit though, despite being an advocate for the risen fiend concept and seeing it workable with demons and devils, I can't see it ever really working with daemons. Where demons and devils have mortal souls in their makeup, daemons seem downright anathema to anything that could be redeemed. Add that to their schtick as the ultimate destroyers of hope and...yeah. Devourers and demiliches kind of fall into that category for me as well.

Contributor

Mikaze wrote:


I don't think there have been any specific redeemed fiends shown in canon yet though...

I may have included an example. I know for certain that I've mentioned risen fiends and speculated about a creature being such a thing. Perhaps nothing as explicit as back in 3.5 when I wrote up a risen ultroloth named Felthis ak Parthis in Dragon magazine. Assume that they're out there, and ten times more fiends claiming to be risen for malevolent purposes. But yeah, they're out there.

But I'm the same person who wrote up a non-evil lich in canon out in the negative energy plane. Strange, non-standard fantastic stuff.

I like, I adore, such creatures because they're bizarre, rare, perhaps even unique. But always keep in mind just how strange and rare they are and thus how difficult or perhaps impossible it might be to produce such a creature (and it might not be possible with outside influence directly).


"Generally speaking, I'm a GM who believes in saying "yes" to his players whenever possible and letting the "rule of cool" win out over the rules. Still, the idea of converting a quasit from evil seems... well, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but the whole thing seems weird."

Considering the Evil sub-type, I think it is kind of the same thing as getting a fire elemental to take baths. It isn't just awkward, it is against their very essence. That is part of what makes them SO damn evil! If all of these creatures were just a little rehab from redemption, they wouldn't be such great villains.

I would say that conversion would be a two-part process. The turning away from evil - which would essentially release the soul and destroy the physical form, and then some event/wish/lightning strike that allowed her to take a new physical form (mephit?). To make a good version of a creature with an evil subtype would require an act of the gods, or similar power.


hida_jiremi wrote:


The further along I go, the more I think that Erylium really was a bad person in life... and that it doesn't matter. If the characters want to attempt to redeem her, that's more important than any evils she might have committed to get herself turned into a monster. After all, even an evil person might have repented given a longer life, different circumstances, whatever. Where you go at death in a fantasy cosmology really only checks what your alignment was at the moment of death, not what you spent the majority of your life as, or what you might have been on the way to becoming.

Jeremy Puckett

This is why I like to leave a lot about my campaign worlds - "outer planes," afterlife, etc., especially - mysterious. Often, a great idea arises through play. (In my game It's been more or less established that demons are NOT former mortals, anyhow. They just spring forth from pure, concentrated chaotic evil, kinda like "incarnum" ;-). If my players wanted a story about redeeming one, though, I'd retcon a few different types of demons in, including ones that used to be mortal.) I suggested a demonic sacrifice because someone mentioned it above and a think a bit of an "answer" as to what happens to a former sacrifice would be cool. (Although, again, one of my players once met a former demon sacrifice in the GOOD afterlife - can't take a soul not freely given, and all that...) Another idea would be for her to have been VERY evil - to the point where some of her past deeds make the PCs rather uneasy, especially when they encounter some of her victims...

Contributor

Two more examples, the first from literature, the second from folklore.

In Angel on my Shoulder--movie from 1946 with a television remake in 1980--the plot is this: A gangster dies and goes to Hell, which looks like a prison, and the warden is Nick, who's pretty obviously the devil. Nick offers the soul a deal: Due to his physical resemblance to a living judge (due to them both being played by the same actor) who is causing trouble for Nick, Nick wants the soul to go possess the judge and ruin his life. Of course, what ends up happening is that the judge has a girlfriend who the damned soul also falls in love with and he ends up actually making the judge's life better. In the original movie (which I haven't seen, but have read the synopsis) it ends with the soul blackmailing Nick into making him a trustee, meaning he can come and go as he pleases. In the remake, Heaven intercedes because the metaphysics is such that deeds done on earth count for total karmic balance, and after Nick let the gangster's soul out, he did enough good to make up for his prior evil that Heaven claimed him.

The metaphysical implications of this are pretty clear: If outsiders are capable of having free will, then they have to be capable of switching sides due to positive or negative character growth.

The other thing I can't believe I forgot to mention, since it's extremely relevant to this discussion, is the folklore from Persia about the Peris. In a nutshell, it comes down to this: There was a revolt of the angels. A bunch of them revolted. However, not all of them became demons or devils. Some of them thought this was an exceptionally bad idea in 20/20 hindsight and they and their descendants have gone around doing good deeds to attempt to get back into Heaven.

So, a quasit becoming a sort of non-evil Tinkerbell? Totally doable from a folklore angel.

Of course in Persian mythology the Divs hate the Peris for bailing on them and beat them up at every opportunity, so your repentant quasit would likely attract a lot of unpleasant attention.


Hmm, 2 other conversions off the top of my head.

Morte, the floating skull in Planescape: Torment was once a component of a pillar of such skulls in Baator, where he was obviously lawful evil. After being freed (and subsequently tortured) by a previous incarnation of the main character, he turns chaotic good (although it isn't explained how).

(2 other extraplanar PCs in that game appear to switch alignment, mostly by living in the wrong plane).

Also, Hue from Star Trek made the switch from total collectivism to individuality, apparently by Geordi being nice to him.

1. I'm with a few of the posters here in thinking that a demon a) has no soul, and b) has no free will...yet. The conversion is cool, but it gets to be flashier than a traditional turning away from evil.
2. I like the idea of leaving her a quasit, with all the powers and vulnerabilities thereof. The Forces of Evil are ticked to lose even such an unworthy servant as that, but that won't stop them from leaving the door open...

I like the idea of a succubus who rises and becomes a paladin to
a) radiate both good (from a class ability) and evil (from her species). Also, that soul-sucking kiss is still there!

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