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So, I'm putting together my magus right now, and first of all I'm really excited. The class seems like a lot of fun. I still maintain that full BAB would make for a better frame for the class, but I'm not going to mouth off too much about that until I've actually sat in the driver seat with my new character. I did, however, notice two big issues in character creation:
1) Am I missing something or is the class's only touch spell Shocking Grasp until 7th-level? I realize Ultimate Magic will introduce new spells, probably many of them touch spells, and I also realize that at low levels Shocking Grasp far and away out-damages any other touch spells, BUT it would be nice if the magus had something to spellstrike other than damage. Why no chill touch, etc.? I agree with a strict limitation on how many touch spells, but a single 1st-level spell until 7th-level? Honestly, even if Shocking Grasp is always the best choice that's more of an argument to allow more options than to deny them, since more options would only make the class less boring and not more powerful. I'd strongly encourage Vampiric Touch as a high-level option also. Even if they're only temporary replacements until we see the new spells from Ultimate Magic, it would help to have a few more options to use with spellstrike.
2) For a class relying on spellstrike to deal a reasonable amount of damage (unlike the fighter whose wealth of bonus feats fills that void) 1, 2, or 3 1st-level spells is never going to be enough, especially since Shocking Grasp only has one charge. The class either needs a boost to the number of spells per day it gets (especially low level spells per day), more touch spells that allow you to get multiple uses out of a single casting, or some sort of weak spell-like ability usable with spellstrike to keep the class competitive. Maybe it just needs an ability where you choose one 1st-level touch spell each day and get 2 or 3 extra castings of that single spell for that day? I don't know. Right now, it just isn't going to be able to get enough mileage out of its signature class ability.
I also had an idea that maybe the class should be able to use spellstrike with any touch abilities granted by magus arcanas and that maybe you could make some of the "sacrifice a spell to get the following spell effect" arcanas actually have damaging touch spell effects, so that you don't get stuck preparing Shocking Grasp in all your slots every day. Or, maybe at least give the magus the ability to spontaneously convert spells into something spellstrike-able at each level, like a druid's summon spells or cleric's cure spells. I like the class as a prepared caster, but not if it means I just have to prepare all damaging touch spells every day in case I get into a lot of combats.
Stoked about this playtest! Thanks Paizo!
So, I'm putting together my magus right now, and first of all I'm really excited. The class seems like a lot of fun. I still maintain that full BAB would make for a better frame for the class, but I'm not going to mouth off too much about that until I've actually sat in the driver seat with my new character. I did, however, notice two big issues in character creation:
1) Am I missing something or is the class's only touch spell Shocking Grasp until 7th-level? I realize Ultimate Magic will introduce new spells, probably many of them touch spells, and I also realize that at low levels Shocking Grasp far and away out-damages any other touch spells, BUT it would be nice if the magus had something to spellstrike other than damage. Why no chill touch, etc.? I agree with a strict limitation on how many touch spells, but a single 1st-level spell until 7th-level? Honestly, even if Shocking Grasp is always the best choice that's more of an argument to allow more options than to deny them, since more options would only make the class less boring and not more powerful. I'd strongly encourage Vampiric Touch as a high-level option also. Even if they're only temporary replacements until we see the new spells from Ultimate Magic, it would help to have a few more options to use with spellstrike.
2) For a class relying on spellstrike to deal a reasonable amount of damage (unlike the fighter whose wealth of bonus feats fills that void) 1, 2, or 3 1st-level spells is never going to be enough, especially since Shocking Grasp only has one charge. The class either needs a boost to the number of spells per day it gets (especially low level spells per day), more touch spells that allow you to get multiple uses out of a single casting, or some sort of weak spell-like ability usable with spellstrike to keep the class competitive. Maybe it just needs an ability where you choose one 1st-level touch spell each day and get 2 or 3 extra castings of that single spell for that day? I don't know. Right now, it just isn't going to be able to...
I haven't worked it all out on paper, but I imagine that the low-level Magus will get a large amount of mileage out of ignoring Spellstrike for the time-being and focusing on combining spells like Colour Spray for mook control with the ability to asskick. If you check my thread for comparison between Magus and a wannabe Eldritch Knight, the Magus is not noticably behind the Generalist Wizard on that front for the levels where Colour Spray would be viable at least.
Director of Game Design
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1) Am I missing something or is the class's only touch spell Shocking Grasp until 7th-level? I realize Ultimate Magic will introduce new spells, probably many of them touch spells, and I also realize that at low levels Shocking Grasp far and away out-damages any other touch spells, BUT it would be nice if the magus had something to spellstrike other than damage. Why no chill touch, etc.? I agree with a strict limitation on how many touch spells, but a single 1st-level spell until 7th-level? Honestly, even if Shocking Grasp is always the best choice that's more of an argument to allow more options than to deny them, since more options would only make the class less boring and not more powerful. I'd strongly encourage Vampiric Touch as a high-level option also. Even if they're only temporary replacements until we see the new spells from Ultimate Magic, it would help to have a few more options to use with spellstrike.
We know this to be a concern and it is something that UM will address in some detail. There will be a number of new touch spells for the Magus to use.
I know that makes it a bit tricky to compare right now, but alas, some of this other material is still in development.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I don't disagree, but it's clear that spellstrike is the magus's "sneak attack" or "rage," you know? And it's a bummer that the best tactic at low levels encourages you not to use your signature ability. Can you imagine if the most viable rogue build ignored sneak attack? It just seems strange.
Interesting thought--when I read the class, I felt Spell Combat was more the Sneak Attack or Rage (cast a non-damaging spell at the same time as laying a beatdown!) where I found Spellstrike more like maybe Uncanny Dodge or Evasion (a nice extra that comes up sometimes and you're glad to have when it does). If making Spellstrike a signature ability like Sneak Attack or Rage is a design goal of Magus, I'd be interested to know, as I can channel my advice in that direction (I think it fails at that if that is the goal but succeeds if Spell Combat was supposed to be the signature).
Looking over the spell lists they seem pretty well rounded between buffing, direct damage and utility spells. One spell I found missing is Mage Armor. A nice spell to have handy for formal occassions where wearing armor is inappropriate.
Doug
A few things I noticed right off:
It *almost* has the bard casting allowance at 1st (bards can use shields) - that's slightly confusing. Also makes a Mithril Buckler a very obvious purchase for Magi.
The Concentrate Magus Arcana: This doesn't allow reroll if the result is known... Concentrate check DCs are pretty fixed, thus result is very unlikely to be unknown.
Hasted Assault: duration equal to spell level... in rounds?
Also need clarification on holding the charge with Spellstrike, if the swing misses.
Overall, the class started off well-balanced, and proceeds to get quite stacked with abilities. We'll see.
Hasted Assault: duration equal to spell level... in rounds?
It says it works the same as Haste, so the time unit used would be the same one used for Haste, and the only difference between the two is the amount of those time units you get.
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1) Am I missing something or is the class's only touch spell Shocking Grasp until 7th-level? I realize Ultimate Magic will introduce new spells, probably many of them touch spells, and I also realize that at low levels Shocking Grasp far and away out-damages any other touch spells, BUT it would be nice if the magus had something to spellstrike other than damage. Why no chill touch, etc.? I agree with a strict limitation on how many touch spells, but a single 1st-level spell until 7th-level? Honestly, even if Shocking Grasp is always the best choice that's more of an argument to allow more options than to deny them, since more options would only make the class less boring and not more powerful. I'd strongly encourage Vampiric Touch as a high-level option also. Even if they're only temporary replacements until we see the new spells from Ultimate Magic, it would help to have a few more options to use with spellstrike.We know this to be a concern and it is something that UM will address in some detail. There will be a number of new touch spells for the Magus to use.
I know that makes it a bit tricky to compare right now, but alas, some of this other material is still in development.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This is an inherited problem from 3E, one I stumbled over playing a Rogue/Sorcerer pre-Pathfinder. Getting sneak damage with a touch spell is awesomesauce except that there was really only spell to do so with -- shocking grasp.
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This is an inherited problem from 3E, one I stumbled over playing a Rogue/Sorcerer pre-Pathfinder. Getting sneak damage with a touch spell is awesomesauce except that there was really only spell to do so with -- shocking grasp.
Ah... Vampiric touch was awesome to sneak attack with. RAW you receive half the damage you deal with the attack as healing. WotC verified that if you SA with VT you get half the SA dmg as healing.
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This is an inherited problem from 3E, one I stumbled over playing a Rogue/Sorcerer pre-Pathfinder. Getting sneak damage with a touch spell is awesomesauce except that there was really only spell to do so with -- shocking grasp.
Complete aside, but you can sneak attack with any spell that has an attack roll, even if it doesn't do damage. And Vampiric Touch Sneak Attacks really really hurt...
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This is an inherited problem from 3E, one I stumbled over playing a Rogue/Sorcerer pre-Pathfinder. Getting sneak damage with a touch spell is awesomesauce except that there was really only spell to do so with -- shocking grasp.Complete aside, but you can sneak attack with any spell that has an attack roll, even if it doesn't do damage. And Vampiric Touch Sneak Attacks really really hurt...
If I recall, more of this aside, the only cavet is that is that sneak damage is damage, (of the same type) but always damage.
So if you sneak with enervation it is 1d4 negative levels, and +xd6 negative energy damage, not (1d4 + xd6) negative levels, zomg your dead.
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If I recall, more of this aside, the only cavet is that is that sneak damage is damage, (of the same type) but always damage.
So if you sneak with enervation it is 1d4 negative levels, and +xd6 negative energy damage, not (1d4 + xd6) negative levels, zomg your dead.
Yep, but it does mean that it bypasses DR of the monster. /end aside.
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If I recall, more of this aside, the only cavet is that is that sneak damage is damage, (of the same type) but always damage.
So if you sneak with enervation it is 1d4 negative levels, and +xd6 negative energy damage, not (1d4 + xd6) negative levels, zomg your dead.
Yep, but it does mean that it bypasses DR of the monster. /end aside.