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Lets say that we have a monk PC that has multiclassed into the Druid class. Let's not talk about how serious this is and if this is realistic. My main question is about what happens with the Ex and Supernatural: abilities of the monk like the Add wisdom to your AC when the PC transforms in to a lion for example. Does he receive the wisdom to AC as a lion? In the main book it state clearly that under polymorph you lose all Ex: abilities originating from your race. It also says that you lose class abilities that depend on form.
So do you lose:
1) AC bonus (Ex)?
2) Flurry of Blows (Ex)?
3) Fast Movement (Ex)?
1) No.
2) Yes, you can't do flurry with natural attacks.
3) Yes.
1) No.
2) Yes, you can't do flurry with natural attacks.
3) Yes.
I'm not sure I agree with you on 2 and 3.
I think you can still do flurries in the new form, but you'd deal unarmed damage appropriate for your size. You COULD argue that you'd lose the increased damage for being a monk since even though it isn't obviously dependent on form, it represent the monk being extremely skilled at using his body. You can't do them with claw/bite attacks, but I can see no ruless that prevent animals from doing unarmed attacks.
On 3, I don't see why you'd lose it. It's not a racial ability and it's not one that is directly dependent on natural form. An awakened lion that becomes a monk would get the bonus, so why shouldn't this monk?
I'm not sure on these but would like to see an explanation of why you would lose 2 and 3.
On #2, you're right in that you can use unarmed strikes instead of your natural attacks and in that instance i suppose you could flurry. Doesn't make thematic sense to me tho.
#3- Core p.212: While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
Here's the monk class feature fast movement:
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed, as shown on Table 3–10. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
As you can see, it's an Extraordinary ability.
On #2, you're right in that you can use unarmed strikes instead of your natural attacks and in that instance i suppose you could flurry. Doesn't make thematic sense to me tho.
#3- Core p.212: While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
You've bolded it wrong, I think. "as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form" it should be. That means, a dragon that polymorphs into a human can't fly. If the new creature doesn't have a land speed, I agree that he wouldn't gain one and thus the monk speed bonus would be wasted, but that's the same case as if an awakened shark gained levels in monk.
EDIT: This is how I see it:
A. A polymorphed creature loses racial abilities and extraordinary abilities that relies on form.
B. It also loses any movement types if the new creature has it.
A monks speed bonus isn't a movement type, so it doesn't break B, and while it is extraordinary, it isn't relient on form more than any other ability that in any way refers to physical movement.
EDIT: I WOULD argue that you might be correct with the 3.0 monk, which changed the base movement speed of the monk, but in 3.5/PF, it's a bonus to speed. Arguing that it's form dependent because he uses his human feet is kind of like saying the BAB is form dependent because you use your hands when swinging a sword.
Lets say that we have a monk PC that has multiclassed into the Druid class. Let's not talk about how serious this is and if this is realistic.
Its one of the more realistic multiclass combos, at least as far as flavor text goes. Monks spend a lot of time meditating in the woods, under waterfalls, contemplating the leaves of lotus blossoms. Its not unrealistic to expect some contact and interaction between the two, one a particular devotee finding deeper meaning in the druids oneness with nature. They also have one compatible alignment: LN
So do you lose:
1) AC bonus (Ex)?
Nope: Its a class ability, not a form ability. You are still wise, prescient, and able to get the hell out of the way.
In 3.5 it might have been worth it to dip into monk for a level for the ac bonus just so you could be slightly harder to hit than the broadside of a barn, but in pathfinder there's a number of ways to keep your ac.
2) Flurry of Blows (Ex)?
.. this is a weird one. Mechanically yes, as long as you're not clawing or biting you can still punch kick and headbutt. Kung fu panda away.
3) Fast Movement (Ex)?
Keep it. Its an enhancement bonus to their land speed, and its not derived from their form.
Dm's call. It doesn't specify whether having it absorbed into your skin counts as wearing it or not.
From a realistic perspective they're not slowed down, hampered, or prevented in any fashion from acting with the lightning fast reflexes required to make use of their ability.
From a mechanics perspective it doesn't make a monk druid equal to a strait classed druid, but feels kind of cheesey to get an armored bonus and a bonus for being unarmored at the same time... then again thats what every monk does if the wizard or sorcerer remotely likes them...
I'm going to say DM's call but leaning yes.
I have a question regarding the Monk/Druid's Armor Class.
If he/she has wild armor on and then wildshapes, does he/she get to add his/her Wisdom bonus to AC?
This is subject to much discussion, especially as it dips deep into the realm of cheese. By RAW I would say yes, as he/she is not wearing armor, the bonus should apply. This might raise other questions though, such as: Can the druid disregard the heavy armor prof., if he plans on using it while wildshaped primarily?
It is my firm belief that the wis bonus to AC should not be allowed with wild armor, since the intention of both, is to provide classes that are behind AC-wise to get a boost, and not to make obscure combos that pushes AC through the roof.On the whole animals making unarmed attacks, I think the notion is too silly, and while it have no mention in the rules, it might just slide into a consideration of common sense. Otherwise we might as well allow quadropeds to walk around on their hindlegs, because the rules does not mention specifically that they have to walk on all four.
The movement should apply. They deserve it. While it might seem inappropriate to some, I think the major mistake is that they made it an enhancement bonus in the first place. IMO it doesn't really make sense to have an extraordinary ability such as this, that gives a bonus which is primarily granted by magic means. I can't see why the monk should benefit from a spell, just because he is really fast in himself.
I have the impression that wild armor and the Monk's Wis bonus to AC shouldn't stack. I can't point to anything specific in the rules which prohibits it though. Certainly bracers of armor would work, and then you could get Wis to AC while not wildshaped too.
So let's say you had a Bear Shaman 2/Monk 1 who used "Aspect of the Bear" to give themselves a 1d6 bite attack and 2 1d4 claw attacks. Could "Flurry of Blows" be applied to these attacks?
No, the Monk's Flurry is just for unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. Claws and bites aren't either of those, so they can't be part of a flurry. In fact, the way the rules are worded I'd say that they can't even be used as secondary natural attacks in addition to a flurry. This is a departure from 3.5.
On the other hand, the character could flurry instead of making natural attacks. Some folks in the past have asserted that a character with claws would be unable to punch. I find that opinion odd, but the flurry could consist of kicking, "karate chops", elbows, knees, etc anyhow.
On the whole animals making unarmed attacks, I think the notion is too silly, and while it have no mention in the rules, it might just slide into a consideration of common sense.
A Druid in ape form could obviously punch. Even in the real world monkeys and chimps have been trained to perform martial arts displays. I'd agree that lions kicking people would be a little silly, but they could probably stun somebody with a nasty slap upside the head. Druids of 6th level or above also aren't limited to wildshaping into animals. Earth elementals or treants certainly look capable of punching to me.
Lets say that we have a monk PC that has multiclassed into the Druid class. Let's not talk about how serious this is and if this is realistic.Its one of the more realistic multiclass combos, at least as far as flavor text goes. Monks spend a lot of time meditating in the woods, under waterfalls, contemplating the leaves of lotus blossoms. Its not unrealistic to expect some contact and interaction between the two, one a particular devotee finding deeper meaning in the druids oneness with nature. They also have one compatible alignment: LN
So do you lose:
1) AC bonus (Ex)?Nope: Its a class ability, not a form ability. You are still wise, prescient, and able to get the hell out of the way.
In 3.5 it might have been worth it to dip into monk for a level for the ac bonus just so you could be slightly harder to hit than the broadside of a barn, but in pathfinder there's a number of ways to keep your ac.
2) Flurry of Blows (Ex)?
.. this is a weird one. Mechanically yes, as long as you're not clawing or biting you can still punch kick and headbutt. Kung fu panda away.
3) Fast Movement (Ex)?
Keep it. Its an enhancement bonus to their land speed, and its not derived from their form.
Thank you all for your answers. I agree that a monk druid multi-class is possible by flavor I just don't know if others agree with that, so it wasn't something aimed to be discussed by me in this thread.
One further question to all those who agree that flurry of blows can be used while being in an animal form. If you choose to become a larger animal your unarmed strike damage increases. Monk levels also increase your unarmed strike damage. So I guess that when you become a large bear for example you do not strike as a human monk of that level but instead you use the unarmed damage of a large creature, increased by the levels of monk you have. Am I Right?
One further question to all those who agree that flurry of blows can be used while being in an animal form. If you choose to become a larger animal your unarmed strike damage increases. Monk levels also increase your unarmed strike damage. So I guess that when you become a large bear for example you do not strike as a human monk of that level but instead you use the unarmed damage of a large creature, increased by the levels of monk you have. Am I Right?
Yes, just like a monk who is hit with an enlarge person increases his size a step. Its doing the same thing via two completely different mechanisms: class abilities and size bonuses.
I recently jumped into a campaign with some friends as a monk/druid with the plant domain for wooden fist and bramble armor, and it's an awesome combo. Druid spells make the perfect buffs for my unarmed combat, and the flavor of each class meshes perfectly.
Vines is a 6'2" Flowing Monk with hair so long that it would drag on the ground if he didn't braid it into two whips that he keeps wrapped around his arms. (My DM let the braids count as natural/monk weapons) He assumes a unique fighting stance which translated from Druidic means "Tree in the Wind"; reflecting his connection with nature, particularly plants.
When I told my friends about him, one of them immediately distinguished him as a long haired tree hugging hippy. :P
You know I had not actually looked too much into Feral Combat training before, but now I notice it says to pick one natural attack so would that be one of your two claws.
Also now I can't get the idea of a Druid wildshaped into a T-rex flurrying with it's bites. Which I can't really rationalize how he would do it. I kinda want to play a monk druid now.
Woodpecker motion with bites.
...I want to do this so bad. It's really too bad you can't Powerful Bite when you Beast Shape, or turn into a Gargantuan creature. That being said, a Stegosaur has a 4d6 tail attack with the trip ability. That there is solid. Jackhammer tail!
My current plan for this nonsense: 6 levels of Saurian Shaman, then Flowing Monk until the end of days. Tripping tail machine for the win.
Lets say that we have a monk PC that has multiclassed into the Druid class. Let's not talk about how serious this is and if this is realistic. My main question is about what happens with the Ex and Supernatural: abilities of the monk like the Add wisdom to your AC when the PC transforms in to a lion for example. Does he receive the wisdom to AC as a lion? In the main book it state clearly that under polymorph you lose all Ex: abilities originating from your race. It also says that you lose class abilities that depend on form.
So do you lose:
1) AC bonus (Ex)?
2) Flurry of Blows (Ex)?
3) Fast Movement (Ex)?
Necromancy this tread: Had the same question about number 1, glade this thread answered the question.
Was looking into a level dip into monk for the ac Bonus, Bonus 1st level feat Dodge +1 to AC, and then using the 1st level character feat, to take Mobility feat, to give an extra +4 dodge bonus to AC vs Attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area.
Or would it be better to just dump points into Acrobatics, to avoid the AoO in the first place, since you lose the armor when Wildshaped.
Or better to have both option ?
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The other issue that was I think misunderstood in the original thread is whether Bracers of Armor continue to work in Wild Shape. Since they specify armor bonuses under polymorph as NOT working I do not believe they do but they should.
I think we can expect at some point a Wild Shape faq that should answer many of these questions.