Without adding anything to the power level of the class in general.
Amend the prerequisites of the class, such that the 1st level of mystic theurge requires 1 level of both an arcane and a divine class, as well as 2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion).
1 Pr1
2 W1
3 MT (here you're basically a 2/2 Priest/Wizard, which is mild hazing)
Make the prereq for the 2nd level of mystic theurge one additional level in either arcane or divine and the 3rd rank of both Knowledges. So
4 Pr2 (now you're a 3/2 priest wizard, not too shabby)
5 MT2 (now you're a 4/3 priest wizard, no 3rd level spells so it's a little hazing, but nothing obscenely onerous)
Make the prereq for the 3rd level of MT the 2nd level in the other class
6 W2 (now you're 4/4, still a little hazing, but not much)
7 MT3 (now you're 5/5, just one spell level behind in both classes, you'd be 4/4 in the old regimen)
Make the prereq for the 4th level of the MT one more level in one of the base classes
8 Pr3 (now you're 6/5, you'd be 5/5 in the old regimen)
9 MT4 (now you're 7/6, you'd be 6/6 in the old regimen)
For the 5th level of MT, you need another level in the base class you didn't get before, so
10 W3 (now you're 7/7, and the 2 regimens have converged).
Frankly, the MT probably ought to be a base class, with some options as to how to split up its 4 'elective' levels, but this is a pretty close approximation. Any thoughts?
It's interesting, but I think you are overly complicating it.
I am one of those that feels the MT is less screwed over than others do. I do think there are 1 or 2 quick 3.5 feats you could update to make it a bit better.
Apply the KISS principle and keep it as is.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
EWHM wrote:
Frankly, the MT probably ought to be a base class, with some options as to how to split up its 4 'elective' levels, but this is a pretty close approximation. Any thoughts?
I can't exactly follow what you're aiming for when all is said and done, what is the sum difference of a 10th level MT between standard and your changes? Mind you I'm not really keen on the idea of a PrC being entered at third level. Because yes you ARE adding significantly to the power level of the developed character.
Your MT "base class" exists. It's called The Witch.
LazarX wrote: EWHM wrote:
Frankly, the MT probably ought to be a base class, with some options as to how to split up its 4 'elective' levels, but this is a pretty close approximation. Any thoughts?
I can't exactly follow what you're aiming for when all is said and done, what is the sum difference of a 10th level MT between standard and your changes? Mind you I'm not really keen on the idea of a PrC being entered at third level. Because yes you ARE adding significantly to the power level of the developed character.
Your MT "base class" exists. It's called The Witch. There's no difference between standard and my change at L10. What this change does is reduce the hazing between character levels 4 and 9 for a mystic theurge by allowing limited entry into the class. I guess I'd ask the question of you, is there any level in the progression presented that anyone could say is overpowered without smoking substances only legal in California? :-)
A witch is an entirely different creature, it's not a C/Mu but rather something else entirely, and there are plenty of partisans who believe the witch may be overpowered :-). My belief is that the MT, Arcane trickster, and eldritch knight were built to allow the old school (i.e., first edition) multiclasses---C/Mu, F/Mu, Mu/Thief---without being total gimps. The MT is perfectly ok from 1-3 and 10-20, but it suffers badly in the CL 4-9 bracket. Now, strictly speaking, as an old schooler, I'm not inherently opposed to a bit of hazing---we used to haze low level mages bigtime, but it does seem a bit odd to have pretty much all the hazing in the game on an obscure prestige class (Pathfinder has reduced the hazing on low level casters substantially).
The Admiral Jose Monkamuck wrote: It's interesting, but I think you are overly complicating it.
I am one of those that feels the MT is less screwed over than others do. I do think there are 1 or 2 quick 3.5 feats you could update to make it a bit better.
Apply the KISS principle and keep it as is.
I don't think the class is a bad one from 1-3 and 10-20. Its the 4-9 bracket where they suffer a lot. The intent is to provide help by adjusting the rules for prestige entry in those levels only without raising their level 10-20 power.
LazarX wrote: EWHM wrote:
Frankly, the MT probably ought to be a base class, with some options as to how to split up its 4 'elective' levels, but this is a pretty close approximation. Any thoughts?
I can't exactly follow what you're aiming for when all is said and done, what is the sum difference of a 10th level MT between standard and your changes? Mind you I'm not really keen on the idea of a PrC being entered at third level. Because yes you ARE adding significantly to the power level of the developed character. He wants to allow them to take their first MT level at level 3, but then force them to take extra levels in other classes as they advance in MT levels. It's an interesting idea for not making levels 4-8 quite as awful, but like others I think he's being way too complicated.
Honestly my suggestion would be to ditch the entire class if this is what you're going with in favor of the following feat:
Mystic Theurge
You have combined the paths of arcane and divine magic, blah blah.
Prereq Able to cast 1st level arcane spells, able to cast 1st level divine spells.
Benefit Choose an arcane casting class. Choose a divine casting class. For the purposes of caster level in each class, these two classes stack. For the purposes of spell acquisition, every two levels in your divine casting class increases your arcane spellcasting access by one level and vice versa.
Special For those whose class levels are out of balance, the feat will only provide benefits up to the balanced class levels.
For example, a mystic theurge with Cleric 6/Wizard 9. This is allowed. However, they will only be getting benefits from cleric 6 and wizard 6. So the character will have a cleric caster level of 12, and a wizard caster level of 15. They will have access to divine spells as a 9th level cleric and access to arcane spells as a 12th level wizard. They will have school abilities as a 9th level wizard and domain/channel abilities of a 6th level cleric.
Peter,
My thinking is that the feat version is probably too good. One big thing about the MT is that you lose out on a LOT of the class abilities of cleric and wizard (the school abilities and the channel energy in particular, as well as the advanced domain powers of the cleric side and the bonus feats for the wizard). IMO there's nothing wrong with the existing MT that a little help from 4th-9th wouldn't fix.
EWHM wrote: Peter,
My thinking is that the feat version is probably too good. One big thing about the MT is that you lose out on a LOT of the class abilities of cleric and wizard (the school abilities and the channel energy in particular, as well as the advanced domain powers of the cleric side and the bonus feats for the wizard). IMO there's nothing wrong with the existing MT that a little help from 4th-9th wouldn't fix.
Honestly I think you are probably looking at a paper tiger EWHM. We ran a sorcerer/wizard with a dual-arcane version of the above feat from 11th to 12th level without any real issue in a party that included both full casters and meleers. You'll still be a level or two behind on spells, but your caster level will be competitive instead of pathetic, and you get a couple extra class abilities throughout levels that help make things a little less painful.
Peter Stewart wrote: EWHM wrote: Peter,
My thinking is that the feat version is probably too good. One big thing about the MT is that you lose out on a LOT of the class abilities of cleric and wizard (the school abilities and the channel energy in particular, as well as the advanced domain powers of the cleric side and the bonus feats for the wizard). IMO there's nothing wrong with the existing MT that a little help from 4th-9th wouldn't fix.
Honestly I think you are probably looking at a paper tiger EWHM. We ran a sorcerer/wizard with a dual-arcane version of the above feat from 11th to 12th level without any real issue in a party that included both full casters and meleers. You'll still be a level or two behind on spells, but your caster level will be competitive instead of pathetic, and you get a couple extra class abilities throughout levels that help make things a little less painful.
Peter, perhaps so, but I'm inclined to err on the side of weakness when we're talking prestige classes. Presently the Mystic Theurge gets a little bit of interest in games I run, and ideally I'd like them to be in the category of 'maybe, if it fits my character concept'. As far as caster level is concerned, there's a trait for +2 caster level as long as the total is less than or equal to your total character level, and you can get +1 caster level from an ion stone, so even with just core, you could be a 17th Wizard/13th Priest with 20th caster level in Wizard and 14th level in priest (IMO, caster level is much more important on the mage side of the MT, and the 7W/3P/10MT seems the most popular build). It's pretty likely something like the 'practiced spellcaster' feat will get reintroduced as canon also, and if a 'cloistered cleric-like' archetype becomes available, probably trading weapon & armor proficiencies away, this will make the MT more powerful (in terms of flexibility, their strong suit) as well.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
EWHM wrote: Presently the Mystic Theurge gets a little bit of interest in games I run, and ideally I'd like them to be in the category of 'maybe, if it fits my character concept'. I'm not surprised. I myself find it hard to connect meaningfully with the concept of Mystic Theurge. Beyond a way of saying wizard and cleric in the same body... there's nothing that particularly unifies the disparate parts in theme. It's never been seen as anything other than to stuff arcane and divine spells in one package. The Witch at least has character and theme.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Witch class makes MT pretty much obsolete, unless you think that some peripheral spells are vital for you or you are after the MT capstone.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
And since it's 1/day, you're better off asking your DM to make it a feat instead.
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