Surprise...


Rules Questions


I cannot find any rules for Surprise other than "If you are not aware of your attackers you are surprised".

If there no sort of check or roll?


Perception checks vs. attackers' Stealth to see if you're aware of your attackers?

Liberty's Edge

It's a hidden (and implied) perception check. It goes on behind the DM's screen to determine whether or not you're "aware." Sometimes there is no check (either blatantly obvious, or impossible, or possibly visible via no-check senses), though, so including text requiring one would be erroneous.

So, as a DM: yes. As a player: No.

Then again a DM is always allowed to rule that an invisible ethereal creature floating above the ground completely motionless (or inside a cube of rock) grants you no perception check :P


Scrogz wrote:

I cannot find any rules for Surprise other than "If you are not aware of your attackers you are surprised".

If there no sort of check or roll?

It might just be the DM's i've had, but a lot of DM's err towards the side of "wouldn't it be cool if the party was surprised and i beat them down before they could do anything and there's nothing they can do.. muahahahhhah!!" side of things.

This can happen, but it should be rare.

Normally its a stealth vs perception roll. One group is sneaking, the other group is listening, those that make their perception checks know whats going on. if everyone makes the check proceed right to the surprise round.

Another common one is when you see someone or something in front of you, but you don't know that they're going to attack. For example, if a bandit is pretending to have a broken down wagon on the side of the road and asks for help there's no doubt that you can SEE the "unlucky farmer" but you should make a bluff vs. sense motive check to see if they see the attack coming. Or perhaps some folks are casually standing in a crowd and they leap out to attack in a planned ambush. There should be some sort of a roll before hand.

A few situations do call for the complete surprise rule. The ethereal ghost above, or if a party made a campfire and the insane wizard fireballs them in the dark from 600 feet away.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Scrogz wrote:

I cannot find any rules for Surprise other than "If you are not aware of your attackers you are surprised".

If there no sort of check or roll?

I agree that this can be misleading. "Surprise" just means what it says in quote above. It refers to the "surprise round." I think technically it is more accurate to say that the "surprised" character is just "not aware" of combat at the moment it starts and thus can't participate as the first actions of combat as it starts.

The endless number of situations in which awareness of combat starts leaves up to the GM to determine if the characters or NPC's are aware of each other. Some, none or all of one side may be aware. I think it is safe to say that on the first round following the surprise round when you see ancient red dragon materialize out of thin air you are at that moment "surprised" (not in game terms) but you are now aware of (holy crap! a red dragon!) the situation and are able to act.

Defining "aware" is also up for GM interpretation. Even a foreboding sense of cold can clue some knowledgeable PC's that trouble is just around the corner and the GM could interpret that as being aware for the purpose of "surprise."


Fair enough...

I am just still used to the "Roll for Surprise" mechanics. I actually like the flexibility quite a bit better.

I just wanted to make sure I was not missing anything in the rules. It's the first PF game my group has played and I am running.


Scrogz wrote:

I am just still used to the "Roll for Surprise" mechanics. I actually like the flexibility quite a bit better.

Nothing really changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder. The only subtle difference is now it is a perception check instead of spot or listen check.


What about this: someone try to catch offguard an opponent who already knows that he/she is there, but actually does not suspect an attack. (You know, anyone could be surprised if some guy he is talking to, suddently stabs him to death) How may you resolve this?
Is there a real possibility of surprise? I will add something else: the attacker has concealed knives (does it count to improve the chance of surprise?).


(obligatory remark about thread necromancy)

I would almost certainly allow a Sense Motive check against the attacker's Bluff. Make it, we proceed to round 1 with no surprise round. Fail it, the attacker gets a surprise round.

I might also allow some Perception to see the concealed knives. Or not. In a world where everyone carries weapons, talking to someone who is armed, even armed with a concealed weapon, is extremely common and is not likely to affect the conversation or the sudden attack. I would probably only allow a Perception check in a situation where the weapons should not exist. For example, if you've gone in to see the king and the guards told you to leave all your weapons, but you tried to conceal one, the guards would get a Perception check to notice it. But just out on the street where everybody is armed, nobody really cares.

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