Hero Lab and PFS


Pathfinder Society

Sovereign Court

So Hero Lab is now an "official" partner of Paizo. Does this mean that someone with a laptop or tablet running HeroLab is table-legal even without a hardcopy of a book that their character is drawing upon? Say, someone has a trait from the "Races of" series for their character, but doesn't own the book, just the HL dataset. Is that legal, or do they need both?

Likewise, do players need hardcopies of their character, or can they use an electronic HL copy in play, on a tablet or laptop?

Grand Lodge 3/5

I think that electronic copy of the character has been deemed legal, but I would still expect at least a electronic copy of the original text watermarked by Paizo.

Electronic copies have been brought up before and been deemed legal by Josh.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Twowlves wrote:


So Hero Lab is now an "official" partner of Paizo. Does this mean that someone with a laptop or tablet running HeroLab is table-legal even without a hardcopy of a book that their character is drawing upon? Say, someone has a trait from the "Races of" series for their character, but doesn't own the book, just the HL dataset. Is that legal, or do they need both?

Likewise, do players need hardcopies of their character, or can they use an electronic HL copy in play, on a tablet or laptop?

Since (I believe) you have to pay to get the dataset 'Races of' whatever in HeroLab I'd say you've paid your due and it should be legal. I was going to buy this program until they told me I was going to have to pay them for the APG content I just got done buying from Paizo. No sale.

$30 buys you HeroLab and a 'rule book' dataset (in this case PF Core) so again, I think you've paid for the content so you should be legal.


It is still a 3rd party source for the info and, just like various wiki and fan sites, there can still be errors that were not made by Paizo in there. Plus, as Josh has said before, part of the requirement to have either the physical book or the pdf is so that Paizo is making money.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

I would have no problem if a person showed up with a Hero Labs sheet at my table. It is just as valid for playing the game as the guy who's handwriting I can barely read. That does not mean that the players get to circumvent the rule that they must own the product in order to take a feat, trait, equipment, etc. In those cases they will still need to have a watermarked hard-copy or electronic reference of the material on hand (or be able to point to their significant other across the room and say "he/she's got it"). A GM must still have a hard copy of the Core Rulebook, Bestiary as outlined in the OP Guide so stuff made in Hero Labs might be valid to play off of, but it does not circumvent that requirement.

I've said this before. It's naive to think that Paizo runs Pathfinder Society because they love Josh and think that he's a swell guy they want to have around. They might be the case in addition to business goals, but the primary purpose of Pathfinder Society is to move product. The hopes are that playing at a public venue will draw other people in to play, and those people will start buying core rulebooks, bestiaries, and the slew of other materials that are required to play Pathfinder. The "reward" for purchasing the other books (in addition to having a great gaming book) is that you get to use them in Organized Play. If you don't pay for the book, you don't get the bonus, even if that bonus is from a licensed partner since Paizo doesn't see the cash generated from the sale of that product.

So in this case Hero Labs is no different than D20PFSRD, The Archive of Nethys, or any of the other online sources. Handy to have, great to use, not-legal for play.

The Exchange 2/5

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Plus, as Josh has said before, part of the requirement to have either the physical book or the pdf is so that Paizo is making money.

Wouldn't they still be making money? They have a license agreement with LoneWolf. I find it hard to believe that they allowed LoneWolf to get the only character generator licensed for Pathfinder without making them pay for it.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Shieldknight wrote:
Wouldn't they still be making money? They have a license agreement with LoneWolf. I find it hard to believe that they allowed LoneWolf to get the only character generator licensed for Pathfinder without making them pay for it.

I'm not going to speculate on the specifics of what the license agreement entails and I'm sure the Paizo folks will never answer that one, but license agreements rarely mean that you're making a 1:1 sale dollar for dollar. They mean you get pennies on the dollar as a royalty, or you get some kind of annual payment for getting to use your logo, or they mean you've made an "agreement" where somebody gets to use your logo for free with the anticipation that the agreement will somehow move more product.

In any of those cases, Paizo is not earning the $9.99 on one of their race books when somebody buys the Hero Lab expansion.

The Exchange 2/5

MisterSlanky wrote:

I'm not going to speculate on the specifics of what the license agreement entails and I'm sure the Paizo folks will never answer that one, but license agreements rarely mean that you're making a 1:1 sale dollar for dollar. They mean you get pennies on the dollar as a royalty, or you get some kind of annual payment for getting to use your logo, or they mean you've made an "agreement" where somebody gets to use your logo for free with the anticipation that the agreement will somehow move more product.

In any of those cases, Paizo is not earning the $9.99 on one of their race books when somebody buys the Hero Lab expansion.

You are more than likely right. My point though was simply that they are still making money on the sale. So you can't quite put it in the same category as d20pfsrd or the like. That's all. Instead if the requirement for making a source legal is that Paizo needs to make money off the sale, than you have accomplished that with HeroLabs.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Shieldknight wrote:
You are more than likely right. My point though was simply that they are still making money on the sale. So you can't quite put it in the same category as d20pfsrd or the like. That's all. Instead if the requirement for making a source legal is that Paizo needs to make money off the sale, than you have accomplished that with HeroLabs.

But it doesn't really work that way. The objective of licensing is not to "screw yourself out of a sale", which is in essence what you just described.

If I have a product in which I make X when I sell, and there's some licensed product in which I make X-Y when it sells, it behooves me to try to sell my product. By selling the product with the lower profit instead of my profit, eventually I will go out of business. On the other hand, if I'm able to sell my product, and hey, the licensed product also sells because it somehow enhances the experience with my product, then whoohoo, I just made a little extra money.

Paizo is a business. They're an awesome business that I think puts out awesome products that I love, but their goal as a business is to make money. Money pays their mortgages, their retirement savings, and guarantees the livelihood of all their employees. I doubt Paizo will take decisions that could effect that bottom line lightly.

I wouldn't count on Hero Labs being considered "official", it will be as unofficial as the other 3rd party non-Paizo resources, this is just the financial reasons why.


While you can use Hero Lab to make a character, you still have to follow the rules for using materials from Chapter 13 of the Guide.

Sovereign Court

What about the other question? Do you have to have a hard copy of your character if you have a current version loaded on your laptop/tablet at the table?

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Twowlves wrote:


What about the other question? Do you have to have a hard copy of your character if you have a current version loaded on your laptop/tablet at the table?

Josh addressed that in the 2.2 FAQ.

The answer is yes, if it's appropriately watermarked.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Chances are that your character sheet will not have a watermark. I would say that while I would except a character sheet electronicly, Your PFS scenario sheets are used as you proof of record keeping. The scenario sheets should always be hard copies. (Which makes the electronic character sheet a bit moot, but what are you going to do.)

Sovereign Court

I only ask because Hero Lab is more than an electronic character sheet. It has a whole tab of toggle boxes for all the conditions (automatically applies dazed, stunned, nauseated mods, etc etc etc), and it keeps track of animal companions/mounts/familiars etc as well.

Just curious.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Herald wrote:
Chances are that your character sheet will not have a watermark. I would say that while I would except a character sheet electronicly, Your PFS scenario sheets are used as you proof of record keeping. The scenario sheets should always be hard copies. (Which makes the electronic character sheet a bit moot, but what are you going to do.)

My mistake. I misread and thought the question was about electronic versions of the PDFs.

This one is touchy. Josh has stated that electronic dice rollers are at the discretion of the GM, but that's about as close to a judgment has he's made. Many GMs (including myself) clearly indicated we'd say "no" to an electronic dice roller, but I'm not entirely sure what his opinion on electronic character sheets would be, but I'd assume it's also "at GM discretion".

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Herald wrote:
Chances are that your character sheet will not have a watermark. I would say that while I would except a character sheet electronicly, Your PFS scenario sheets are used as you proof of record keeping. The scenario sheets should always be hard copies. (Which makes the electronic character sheet a bit moot, but what are you going to do.)

Unless you're one of the crazy folks that constantly scan everything and get rid of paper.


Just like you have to have the physical copies of your chronicle sheets, you must also have the physical copy of your character sheet.

1/5

MisterSlanky wrote:
Herald wrote:
Chances are that your character sheet will not have a watermark. I would say that while I would except a character sheet electronicly, Your PFS scenario sheets are used as you proof of record keeping. The scenario sheets should always be hard copies. (Which makes the electronic character sheet a bit moot, but what are you going to do.)
Unless you're one of the crazy folks that constantly scan everything and get rid of paper.

While I think it's a little much to require a physical character sheet (and even if that's going to be the case, I'll probably still continue to play from Herolab in the future,) the chronicle sheets are another matter. Electronic images are ludicrously easy to manipulate, and someone willing to use time and talent could easily make real-looking chronicle sheets just from the scans. They could also eliminate those little 'X' marks over their negative boons, or over those positive boons they've already used.

No physical chronicle sheets, no valid character. I'd accept one or two printed scans from online games because I have little choice, but there'd better be writing from you for your purchases that session.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

For its character creator functions and ease of leveling to see how different choices affect the over-all character, I love HeroLab. The customizable interface allows for you to add new rules while waiting for the company to write the code. However, I am not a fan of laptops at the gaming table. It has the "feel" of a wall or border, separating the player from the game. As a GM, I might want to review a character before play or even during the game if something unusual comes up. This becomes much more of a distraction if you have to flip through various screens on a computer. Personally, I print my character out from HeroLab, including a couple of alternate versions with common "power-ups" like raging, enlarged, power attack activated, etc, to make it fast and easy during the game. This also makes it easy to hand the sheets to my GM for review. I would recommend that if you intend to use a laptop during PFS play, you at least print out the character sheet. You will also need to have either hard copies of all the books you are drawing abilities from, or at least have the water-marked copied on the laptop for review.

EDIT--as Josh has said, a hard copy of the character sheet is required at PFS events. A player should not be surprised if he/she is turned away if showing without one. Of course, it shouldn't be much of a problem for the GM to hand them a blank character sheet and ask them to fill it out before play.


TwilightKnight wrote:
You will also need to have either hard copies of all the books you are drawing abilities from, or at least have the water-marked copied on the laptop for review.

Just to add, Josh has stated that printouts of the appropriate pages from a watermarked pdf are allowed also, but photocopies of pages from a physical copy of a book are not.

Grand Lodge

Wow,

One of the great things about society is that you can sit down with up to six complete strangers, and enjoy approximately 4 hours of game play. Instead of going off target here, let me just say I think this forum is a sad way to express what society is about. Not once in any of my adventure's in society, with several great dm's and player's was anything brought up about books vrs. pdf's. Hero Lab is a great program, and I'm slowly converting to it. I would hate to think that I would go to a convention and sit down with someone who would seriously dig that deep into a character. If I were the player I would be offended. Am I saying I'm perfect, nope. I'm saying I'm there to have fun, not be scrutinized by some rules lawyer.

Bottom line is this, society play offers a fair way to play @ conventions. And while a rule or set of rules might be mistaken, no one I've played with or gm'd for has tried to play unfairly. Take it at face value and enjoy the true meaning of society. Have fun with those you game with and enjoy the experiences.

I don't post often, but when I see a forum heading down this road, I figured I'd say my two cents worth, and never revisit this particular forum.

Bobbo

4/5 5/55/55/5 ****

Chris Kenney wrote:

Electronic images are ludicrously easy to manipulate, and someone willing to use time and talent could easily make real-looking chronicle sheets just from the scans. They could also eliminate those little 'X' marks over their negative boons, or over those positive boons they've already used.

No physical chronicle sheets, no valid character. I'd accept one or two printed scans from online games because I have little choice, but there'd better be writing from you for your purchases that session.

While that is a possibility, and that would be bad to do, couldn't people just print off a clean chronicle sheet and use it to replace their "bad" chronicle sheet. I can't really see any real reason to subject a person with printed digital scans with any more scrutiny than a player with "normal" chronicle sheets. In addition, I would gladly walk out of any game that barred a player for having more than two printed scans.


Chris Kenney wrote:


... I'd accept one or two printed scans from online games because I have little choice, but there'd better be writing from you for your purchases that session.

There are several of us PFs players that tend to play more online via VTT where scanned chronicle sheets are the only really viable option. I hate to think that I couldn't play my character that I have used online at a convention for fear of a GM not allowing it because the online format happens to be the valid form of play that fits my schedule and location the best.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

IronWolf wrote:
There are several of us PFs players that tend to play more online via VTT where scanned chronicle sheets are the only really viable option. I hate to think that I couldn't play my character that I have used online at a convention for fear of a GM not allowing it because the online format happens to be the valid form of play that fits my schedule and location the best.

That is not what Josh has stated though. He's said that Hero Labs character sheets are valid, just like hand scribbled sheets are. I don't think you need to fear that. As for the Chronicle sheets, Josh has ruled that they must be paper copies (see about ten posts up). I wouldn't think it that hard to receive a handwritten sheet from the GM via mail, then you don't have to worry.

The Exchange 1/5

thorun09 wrote:
I would hate to think that I would go to a convention and sit down with someone who would seriously dig that deep into a character. If I were the player I would be offended. Am I saying I'm perfect, nope. I'm saying I'm there to have fun, not be scrutinized by some rules lawyer.

Since you won't be back to this thread, I'm not addressing you specifically, but rater others who may feel this requirement is to allow 'rules lawyers to scrutinize' your PC.

It's far more likely to come up when you make 'random roll X' for your PC and announce you get a bonus for 'Y Trait', which the GM is unfamiliar with. (Not hard to believe, the list of Traits grows with every PRPG Companion book released and nearly all of them are legal for PFS use. Even those of us who own every Companion can't be expected to be familiar with them all. Not to mention feats, gear, PRCs, etc. that are also allowed from various books which are not part of the 'core assumption'.) You can then quickly whip out the relevant book or PDF, show the Trait to GM and get on with the playing. No harm, no foul.


MisterSlanky wrote:
As for the Chronicle sheets, Josh has ruled that they must be paper copies (see about ten posts up). I wouldn't think it that hard to receive a handwritten sheet from the GM via mail, then you don't have to worry.

All the chronicle sheets are in paper form and handwritten in their original state. But they are printed from scanned handwritten copies. There is a lot of online play happening in a popular Google group for people mustering VTT tables.

Grand Lodge 3/5

thorun09 wrote:

Wow,

One of the great things about society is that you can sit down with up to six complete strangers, and enjoy approximately 4 hours of game play. Instead of going off target here, let me just say I think this forum is a sad way to express what society is about. Not once in any of my adventure's in society, with several great dm's and player's was anything brought up about books vrs. pdf's. Hero Lab is a great program, and I'm slowly converting to it. I would hate to think that I would go to a convention and sit down with someone who would seriously dig that deep into a character. If I were the player I would be offended. Am I saying I'm perfect, nope. I'm saying I'm there to have fun, not be scrutinized by some rules lawyer.

Bottom line is this, society play offers a fair way to play @ conventions. And while a rule or set of rules might be mistaken, no one I've played with or gm'd for has tried to play unfairly. Take it at face value and enjoy the true meaning of society. Have fun with those you game with and enjoy the experiences.

I don't post often, but when I see a forum heading down this road, I figured I'd say my two cents worth, and never revisit this particular forum.

Bobbo

I read this post three times and I still can't get the meaning of it. Just what are you getting at..

Grand Lodge 2/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Herald wrote:


I read this post three times and I still can't get the meaning of it. Just what are you getting at..

The tone of the message forums and the spirt of the game store players appears to be two different things. At least that's what I got out of it...

Dark Archive 1/5

thorun09 wrote:

Wow,

One of the great things about society is that you can sit down with up to six complete strangers, and enjoy approximately 4 hours of game play. Instead of going off target here, let me just say I think this forum is a sad way to express what society is about. Not once in any of my adventure's in society, with several great dm's and player's was anything brought up about books vrs. pdf's. Hero Lab is a great program, and I'm slowly converting to it. I would hate to think that I would go to a convention and sit down with someone who would seriously dig that deep into a character. If I were the player I would be offended. Am I saying I'm perfect, nope. I'm saying I'm there to have fun, not be scrutinized by some rules lawyer.

Bottom line is this, society play offers a fair way to play @ conventions. And while a rule or set of rules might be mistaken, no one I've played with or gm'd for has tried to play unfairly. Take it at face value and enjoy the true meaning of society. Have fun with those you game with and enjoy the experiences.

I don't post often, but when I see a forum heading down this road, I figured I'd say my two cents worth, and never revisit this particular forum.

Bobbo

As a player/GM I would have to say one should never assume that extreme cases are the norm Bobbo. I think what is being discussed in terms of examples are very specific scenario's. It is not meant to imply that GMs/Coordinators at conventions are going to be looking over your shoulder like Nazi's and expecting you to be following the rules to the letter. However, there are those who feel that rules are there to break. It is those few that manage to fuel and drive these detailed types of discussions. Also, it is important to point out that this game is not just about players. GM's also are entitled to have fun. That fun is often manifested in knowing good clean fun was had by all. I, for example, don't like it when folks show up to a table with no character sheet. I also don't like computer dice rollers at my table. Why? Not because I don't trust their randomness but because I want to see the roll. I want to see the character sheet. Plain and simple. As a GM I shouldn't have to get up and walk over to a player in order to see something I am curious about. I should be able to say, "May I see your character sheet please?" and bang you hand it to me. That is not being unreasonable. I have a fellow who consistently shows up to play with no character sheet. He notoriously rolls off the top of his head. Now if I have no mechanism in place to refer to then that fellow would argue and waste time and ultimately I would have to let him play. Inevitably other players would argue, "Well you let him play" until eventually GMing becomes a chore. Without GMs there are no P and P role playing games. I use Hero Lab myself. I make sure to printout my character sheet. I have my books in PDF format on my little laptop which I bring with me as well. I do this because I never assume that a GM will allow the use of items not generally accepted in P and P games. There are rules for a reason and perhaps the shoe does not fit me or you but inevitably Cinderella does show up and in those rare instances we understand why the rules are there.

1/5

Blazej wrote:


While that is a possibility, and that would be bad to do, couldn't people just print off a clean chronicle sheet and use it to replace their "bad" chronicle sheet. I can't really see any real reason to subject a person with printed digital scans with any more scrutiny than a player with "normal" chronicle sheets. In addition, I would gladly walk out of any game that barred a player for having more than two printed scans.

Well, for one thing, by the time I'm actually checking for this kind of thing you've probably already flagrantly cheated a few times during the same session. The only time I've flagged someone for a 'bookkeeping issue' they were trying to continue to use the APG Playtest classes during the last week in August. Even then, since there were four APGs at the table including my own I told him that I'd let him convert from someone else's copy that week as long as he brought printouts from the new PDF from then on.

Hypothetically, at the point where I would check your chronicle sheet collection over with a fine-toothed comb, you would probably have already had to have shown up with a class you didn't own the book for, tried to use several outright forbidden items and feats, and then shown pre-knowledge of the scenario.

You have to really try to get me on that path. Once I'm there, though, and you're under that magnifying glass, expect me to check everything and more than a few printed character sheets with no personal writing on them is just going to make me even more suspicious.

Sovereign Court 3/5

Hi all -
As a side note, as of yet only the Core Rulebook, Bestiary and Advanced Players Guide are available from Wolflair itself for HeroLab Pathfinder. The additional Players Companions and Chronicles are done by fans at this point. I have done my best with Seeker of Secrets - but I know things like boon companion do not work exactly right with familiars. ShadowChemosh and others have been doing an awesome job of inputing Elves, Dwarves, and Adventures Armory. While the information from them is legal in PFS play, it cannot replace a book or a printed copy/book from a legal PDF.
The player must be as familiar with HeroLab and the product that they are using as they would be with the actual product - because these are not official Wolflair sources. Any of the Wolflair sources may have errors, but those get updated often - while ShadowChemosh makes sure he fixes anything wrong with his add-ons - not everybody does.
Until Wolflair is able to come through with their schedule of Player Companions updates ($5ish) use the fan made add-ons with caution - and if there are errors in the fan created ones, post to the HL forums and the creators will do their best to fix the issue.
In all, I'm really glad Wolflair got the official stamp - it was already really close with just the Core Rulebook, but with all the stuff that Paizo has and is planned on publishing it sure makes it even more worthwhile.
Be Well.
Theocrat Issak

Sovereign Court

While all of the player's companions are not in herolab yet, they are going to put all of the Races books and Regional books in there as add-on data sets in the near future, and all of the free Traits PDF are alrady in there. The fan-created stuff is probably correct, but it won't always be the only source for this information.

The Exchange 1/5

Twowlves wrote:


While all of the player's companions are not in herolab yet, they are going to put all of the Races books and Regional books in there as add-on data sets in the near future, and all of the free Traits PDF are alrady in there. The fan-created stuff is probably correct, but it won't always be the only source for this information.

When they announced the data sets they were shooting for a September release. So, could be any day now.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Theocrat wrote:
while ShadowChemosh makes sure he fixes anything wrong with his add-ons - not everybody does.

I use Herolab now, and found an error in ShadowC's Adventurer's Armory coding.

When selecting the Aldori Dueling Sword and the Weapon Finesse Feat, the to hit modifier does not reflect the Weapon Finesse.

( And I'd call the Aldori Dueling sword a Fighter Heavy Blade not Light Blade.)

Liberty's Edge

Chris Kenney wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
Herald wrote:
Chances are that your character sheet will not have a watermark. I would say that while I would except a character sheet electronicly, Your PFS scenario sheets are used as you proof of record keeping. The scenario sheets should always be hard copies. (Which makes the electronic character sheet a bit moot, but what are you going to do.)
Unless you're one of the crazy folks that constantly scan everything and get rid of paper.

While I think it's a little much to require a physical character sheet (and even if that's going to be the case, I'll probably still continue to play from Herolab in the future,) the chronicle sheets are another matter. Electronic images are ludicrously easy to manipulate, and someone willing to use time and talent could easily make real-looking chronicle sheets just from the scans. They could also eliminate those little 'X' marks over their negative boons, or over those positive boons they've already used.

No physical chronicle sheets, no valid character. I'd accept one or two printed scans from online games because I have little choice, but there'd better be writing from you for your purchases that session.

Chris,

How do you feel about a player (me) showing up with scanned chronicle sheets from the online PFS play using a VTT?

I'm the guy who was sitting next to the fellow you mention in the post above when you enforced the "must have hard copy" rule. . . so this isn't just a rhetorical question :)

- would you accept a link to the web page discussion about the adventures as credentials?


Kingbreaker wrote:


Chris,

How do you feel about a player (me) showing up with scanned chronicle sheets from the online PFS play using a VTT?

I'm the guy who was sitting next to the fellow you mention in the post above when you enforced the "must have hard copy" rule. . . so this isn't just a rhetorical question :)

- would you accept a link to the web page discussion about the adventures as credentials?

Unfortunately, what individual GM's may say does not really matter since Joshua is the head of the Pathfinder Society and his word is the law. Here is his post from earlier in this thread:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Just like you have to have the physical copies of your chronicle sheets, you must also have the physical copy of your character sheet.

Dark Archive 1/5

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Kingbreaker wrote:


Chris,

How do you feel about a player (me) showing up with scanned chronicle sheets from the online PFS play using a VTT?

I'm the guy who was sitting next to the fellow you mention in the post above when you enforced the "must have hard copy" rule. . . so this isn't just a rhetorical question :)

- would you accept a link to the web page discussion about the adventures as credentials?

Unfortunately, what individual GM's may say does not really matter since Joshua is the head of the Pathfinder Society and his word is the law. Here is his post from earlier in this thread:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Just like you have to have the physical copies of your chronicle sheets, you must also have the physical copy of your character sheet.

I would beg to differ with you on that Enevhar. At a table, unless Josh is sitting next to you and in a particularly prickly mood, the GM is law. If a GM chooses to accept a scanned copy of anything at the table and someone at the table were to send a note to Josh saying, "Dear Josh, I think you should know that a GM here at the so and so convention accepted a scanned blank." I doubt seriously that Josh would suddenly shoot the GM a Dear John letter. The rules are there to give GMs the guidance and authority to enforce the expected etiquette at a table. It is still about keeping the game flowing and the experience positive and in the GM section of the PFS rule book it effectively says that GMs should use there own discretion when dealing with issues regarding players and play. That being said, Chris, if one GM allows it don't expect that all GMs should allow it. As Enevhar has pointed out the rule of thumb has been set down by Josh. The question you have to ultimately ask yourself is; Is it worth taking the risk of a "no" every time you show up at a table?

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

Morrick wrote:


I would beg to differ with you on that Enevhar. At a table, unless Josh is sitting next to you and in a particularly prickly mood, the GM is law. If a GM chooses to accept a scanned copy of anything at the table and someone at the table were to send a note to Josh saying, "Dear Josh, I think you should know that a GM here at the so and so convention accepted a scanned blank." I doubt seriously that Josh would suddenly shoot the GM a Dear John letter. The rules are there to give GMs the guidance and authority to enforce the expected etiquette at a table. It is still about keeping the game flowing and the experience positive and in the GM section of the PFS rule book it effectively says that GMs should use there own discretion when dealing with issues regarding players and play. That being said, Chris, if one GM allows it don't expect that all GMs should allow it. As Enevhar has pointed out the rule of thumb has been set down by Josh. The question you have to ultimately ask yourself is; Is it worth taking the risk of a "no" every time you show up at a table?

I have to agree here with Morrick. Josh is in a very difficult position here. He sets down the rules as written and therefore has to be careful what he says and how he phrases it.

At the same time I have seen Josh always backing up his GMs if they tried to follow a rule as intended. He can't and doesn't wants to micromanage.
So the whole rule is there to back up a GM if he is assumes someone is cheating. As such it gives the GM the power to tell someone he needs a more solid proof that they have really played the games.
It surely isn't intended that a GM always has to check all chroniicle sheets and send everyone home without all of them. How many GMs do check at their home game all the chronicle sheets. If it really has to be followed to the letter than I would have to send home a player at my table if he shows up without a chronicle that I signed for him.
That would be RAW followed to the letter but wouldn't help the society.
There are times and moments you need this rule - but there are also times a GM can use his own judgement.

Thod

Thod

1/5

Kingbreaker wrote:


Chris,

How do you feel about a player (me) showing up with scanned chronicle sheets from the online PFS play using a VTT?

I'm the guy who was sitting next to the fellow you mention in the post above when you enforced the "must have hard copy" rule. . . so this isn't just a rhetorical question :)

- would you accept a link to the web page discussion about the adventures as credentials?

Well, you can be pretty sure I'd be going over them with a magnifying glass looking for photoshop evidence, metaphorically speaking. Again, by the time I'm actually bothering to check a player has probably already gone out of his way to annoy me with blatant cheating. By this point I'm just looking to see if it was really an "honest mistake" or if I'll be emailing Josh or the regional co-ordinator about how to deal with it. I have yet to run across a case where I'd actually have to go through the chronicle sheets one by one with this kind of scrutiny.

Liberty's Edge

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:


Unfortunately, what individual GM's may say does not really matter since Joshua is the head of the Pathfinder Society and his word is the law. Here is his post from earlier in this thread:

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Just like you have to have the physical copies of your chronicle sheets, you must also have the physical copy of your character sheet.

Interesting. . . this is an important issue to me so I did some reading in the PFS player's guide. Here's what it says about chronicle sheets:

Quote:


Additionally, online play for Pathfinder Society is
permitted. Online play includes a number of different
methods of play. There’s Play-by-Post, there are a variety
of online digital game tables, and you could even play
using webcams and a voice over IP system. So long as your
Game Master can get you all of the required paperwork (by
fax, scan, or otherwise),
online play is a legitimate method
of playing in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Check
the Pathfinder Society Organized Play messageboards
at paizo.com for additional details about several active
online groups playing around the world.

[my emphasis]

So does Josh's quote above contradict this or not?

I am not a GM, but it seems to me that the rule as laid out in the play guide is more than reasonable.


Kingbreaker wrote:


Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Just like you have to have the physical copies of your chronicle sheets, you must also have the physical copy of your character sheet.

Interesting. . . this is an important issue to me so I did some reading in the PFS player's guide. Here's what it says about chronicle sheets:

Quote:


Additionally, online play for Pathfinder Society is
permitted. Online play includes a number of different
methods of play. There’s Play-by-Post, there are a variety
of online digital game tables, and you could even play
using webcams and a voice over IP system. So long as your
Game Master can get you all of the required paperwork (by
fax, scan, or otherwise),
online play is a legitimate method
of playing in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Check
the Pathfinder Society Organized Play messageboards
at paizo.com for additional details about several active
online groups playing around the world.

[my emphasis]

So does Josh's quote above contradict this or not?

I don't think it is a contradiction. Chronicle sheets are allowed to be scanned and faxed for online play. Be sure to print it out to take to a convention or for face-to-face play.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Josh has said you need a Physical Copy... A Scanned Copy printed out, is a Physical Copy...

Sovereign Court 2/5

Dragnmoon beat me to it :) He just said a physical copy, so a pinted scan or fax qualifies (IMO). I believe that the rule is just to prevent people showing up with JUST a laptop with their character sheet and chronicles on it.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Galahad0430 wrote:
Dragnmoon beat me to it :) He just said a physical copy, so a pinted scan or fax qualifies (IMO). I believe that the rule is just to prevent people showing up with JUST a laptop with their character sheet and chronicles on it.

+1

Liberty's Edge

I used to play Living Greyhawk and loved it, which is why I play Pathfinder Society. We had the same rules for Owning the book to play the rule. You would see guys trying to maneuver a room with a bookcase attached to wheels. Funniest thing I ever saw. Computers have made gaming easier and accurate characters even more so. I just feel the fun of the game being sucked out of the room...

2/5

Holy thread necro, Batman!

1/5

$10 for the PDF from Paizo plus $10 for the content on Hero Lab (In most cases) is still half of what the physical book costs...


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Twowlves wrote:


So Hero Lab is now an "official" partner of Paizo. Does this mean that someone with a laptop or tablet running HeroLab is table-legal even without a hardcopy of a book that their character is drawing upon? Say, someone has a trait from the "Races of" series for their character, but doesn't own the book, just the HL dataset. Is that legal, or do they need both?

Likewise, do players need hardcopies of their character, or can they use an electronic HL copy in play, on a tablet or laptop?

tl;dr?

You need PDF/book/printout from PDF.

You need printed chronicle sheets and printed character sheets but can use HL "in-play".

Why?

Spoiler:

Page 5 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has Core Rulebook and the Guide.

Nothing else is required to play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, unless you want to utilize content from an Additional Resource (e.g. "Races of" splatbook etc.)

If you want to use content from an Additional Resource, you must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list.

As I understand the HeroLab partnership, you are paying for somebody to program the content from the Additional Resource into a format HeroLab can manipulate. You are /not/ paying for the content itself.

As I understand the Guide and the Core Assumption, you need to meet the requirements on page 5 of the guide to use the material.

This means (to me anyway), the guide requires you to have a PDF, book or printout from your PDF. Not all GMs check and there's not always a VO around to make sure you're table legal, but you're not table legal without one of those three content sources.

The guide doesn't require printed sheets, but everything is phrased in "physical" language on page 9-10. "Jot", "initial", "provide", etc.

On VTT, I email a PDF. When I GM, I only accept printed copies.

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