So I was looking at this yesterday, really closely, and I was probably THE most excited about this one concept of all. Finally, a 1 weapon in 1 hand was validated!! Yes!!!!
Or was it?
On closer inspection, I've decided that it stinks. And ... I mean it, it's entirely underwhelming. There is only 1 good option there to work with the concept. Every other one ... just is lacking.
To wit: here's my analysis of the archetype and why the option fails to impress me/do credit to the archetype.
Deceptive Strike (replaces Bravery @ 2nd) - ok, so ... it's a bit *more* useful than bravery as that's so highly situational, and entirely defensive (ie: IF fear isn't happening much, THEN you're boned out of a class feature). On this front, it's an upgrade. Mechanically speaking, it's solid - it increases over time and grants a bonus on disarm and feint attempts, and it works when trying to make a diversion to hide (odd that last bit, but ok). Now, a +5 mechanically is a darn good edge to have - so this one actually is a *win* feature in my book. Of course, this is on a few of the maneuvers in the first place, so ... :shrugs: it's nice, but only a maneuver enhancer. Still, it's a *great* maneuver enhancer, so it's a solid win.
Elusive (replaces Armor Trining at all points) - well, starting at 3rd level you get a +1 dodge bonus to AC and it grows by an additional +1 every 4 levels thereafter. Thing is ... it completely trades in Armor Training. In other words, *all* armor-anything features of the class disappear entirely. You can't get a higher Max Dex or anything, so that's gone, too. On the surface, this is great! A +5 to AC as a dodge bonus ... but in play it's worse than armor training. If this guy goes w/even a mythril chain shirt, he's limited by dex to get a +6 max from dex to couple with his +5 to AC w/the dodge ==> +15 total counting the Chain Shirt value itself and adding it all together. So, compare vs. a regular fighter w/out this archetype option in play - his dex max bonus would/could be, after 4 levels of Armor Training up to a +10, so assuming the build *is* all about light armor and weapons and going finesse over strength, his AC would be ==> 10 + 4 = 14, flat. It's close, but this guy is actually able to mine and utilize his dex score a bit more than the free-hand fighter. This is ... just odd. I'm out to lunch on this one, as, it seems a wash really. The feature is nice, but grants NO significant advantage near as I can tell ... there's *maybe* a 1 point AC edge, but that's not until level 19 (LONG wait).
Singleton (replaces WpnTrain 1) - ok, so a +1 to hit and +1 to damage when 1 weapon in 1 hand and nothing in the other ... how is this different from regular WT? Oh ... yes. It's LESS useful, actually. It limits your weapon selection AND prohibits any shield use. It's not even an option here ... the offense is now PRESCRIBING how it interacts w/defense (vs. the straight core class fighter). I'm calling this one a net-loss here. It's a more limited version of WT ... nothing more to say.
Timely Tip (replaces WT 2) - ok, so where a normal fighter would be a +2/+2 and picking up a new weapon at +1/+1 (a feature NOT to be emulated by any other class mind you) ... this archetype is ... using his free hand to use a move-action to negate the effects of a shield's AC on a target. There is SO much wrong with this option it is just ridiculous. (1) Disarm is an attack action normally, no? So, you *could* disarm someone just with *any* attack, but now, it's increased in action cost!?!?!?! Seriously!?!?!?! (2) You've traded the 1, good thing Fighters do better than every other melee in PF - he's traded in damage superiority. (3) There is a feat in 3.5 from Complete Warrior that does something very similar for 2-wpn weilders. Essentially the 2-wpn guy forgoes his off hand attacks for the round in order to negate the target's AC bonus ... with a minor tweak, there's a "free hand" feat option to pull off the SAME mechanical effect. (4) No second "weapon of expertise" group is added to the fighter's weapon list. So, here we're trading defining Fighter class only features ... for what boils down to a mundane "Feat" choice, and one that INCREASES action economy at that ... this is HORRIBLE!!
Interference (replaces WT 3) - use a move action to disarm or trip a target and cause them to become flat footed. Again ... so much wrong here. This time I'll list them, though: Disarm as a move vs. attack action; trip as a move vs. attack action; AoO is likely better than "flat footed"; Duration of "flat footed" is only until the character NEXT takes damage (ie: good for ONE hit, and ONE HIT only). Again, on the grounds of action activation and now duration of the effect, this is HORRIBLE!! In trade is the +3/+3 ; +2/+2; and now a +1/+1 to a new weapon type of expertise. I can never see this being worth the investment. If you want someone flat-footed, and want to use a move action to do it, Improved Feint will *already* to this ... THIS feature is a HORRIBLE mechanic.
Reversal (replaces Armor Mastery) - if you're about to be hit in melee, you can make an immediate Disarm check vs some different target that you threaten in melee range, and if successful the attacker hits the target you just made the disarm check on (unclear if you're actually *disarming* it or just using the disarm check as a measure of successfully redirecting the attack). So, what you have is a 1/round ability (if you've not used any other immediate actions) to negate a hit IF there are at least 2 people attacking you that you threaten when this hit is about to take place. It's kind of involved, but you can't deny the utility of this thing. Imagine doing it when someone/thing rolls a crit on you! Certainly nice, BUT it's a heavily circumstantial boon. IF there's no one around you, and IF you fail that Disarm check, you're boned. Now, by the time you hit this level, you've got a +5 class feature boon to Disarms, so presumably you've invested in Imp and Grtr Disarm as feats, so a +9 is a solid edge in favor to have (ie: this is *almost* a guarantee to work, but there's always the chance of a 1 at least). The trade-in, though is a solid guarantee and *always* pretty useful. Having a DR 5/- is great! -5 points from any/all incoming hits is a very, very nice thing! Having a situational "trump" move is also very nice (ie: I'd rather avoid damage entirely rather than negate a small bit of it). This is, honestly, a toss up for me as it's a pretty good concept and an ok, if slightly obtuse mechanic.
That's my analysis, and what gets me going is that if you take an archetype you "must" take all of the rest of the features that go along with it. This is NOT a good thing for the majority of the options presented above. Of the 6 options, 2 are equal/a wash; 1 is an improvement, and 3 are actually WORSE options by far for the existing Fighter Class features. Why would you trade in *any* of this when 3 options are clearly worse and 2 are about equal?? There's only 1 improvement feature, and that's only with a plan on using some maneuvers with a regular degree of thought.
Nah ... I'm not going to use these things for long. In fact, I'm going to make *all* archetype class features like an "al-a-carte" menu for my players. Pick what you want, trade in the appropriate feature, and leave the rest where it is.
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I agree, and I actually have a player who is interested in the idea so I am going to be doing a little bit of buffing here.
I am removing the light armor requirement for elusive and making it require light or medium only.
Singleton is being left more/less the same except that the fighter benefits from the Imp Unarmed Strike with the one free hand.
Timely tip is being converted to allow the fighter to make 1 disarm attempt per turn at the cost of a move action. Forget everything else, there is no reason why they cant use this kind of maneuver to simply wrench ANYTHING out of their opponents hands and keep it.
I had a small thread in the Advice forum about that, Figuring out the free hand fighter
That's what I think (summing up): The first 10 levels are ok and worth playing, but after that you can't deal enough damage of any kind (altough the AC, CMD and touch AC are nice), so you better take the Duelist PrC then.
First, I think you are misreading the fighter's normal weapon mastery. He doesn't get to choose a new weapon style and increase his old one. He only gets to increase 1 weapon style. So he can either go for a +2/+2 or 2 +1/+1 when he gets his second, not a +2/+2 and a +1/+1. This significantly closes the gap that you see in the abilities.
Elusive gives you increase in overall AC and reduces your need to max dexderity. Win-win for light armored fighters. Not everyone is going to be getting a 30 dex, and even then you will have higher AC than them.
As for singleton, instead of being restricted to a single type of weapon, you can use any type of weapon. If you want to use a single hand but vary weapon type, you get an advantage. Overall, I think this one is a wash. It has bonuses and penalties, most of which will never matter to the character.
Interference I disagree with you on. Greater Trip, for instance, will get you a free AoO. You can use Interference to trip at full BAB, get a free AoO at full BAB and flat footed, and then attack, at full BAB with your standard action. This as opposed to using your full BAB attack to trip, get a normal AoO, and then getting 2 more attacks at penalties. You are trading in 1 attack at -10 to get them flat footed for 1 attack and +5 to annother attack. Whether that is worth +1 to hit and damage, I'm not sure, but it is a useful ability. Combined with the bravery replacement, its pretty nice though.
I agree with you on Timely Trip. I just don't see the usefulness. Especially at the action cost. I would rather full attack and use my first attack to disarm the shield, though this isn't always an option, and since this doesn't actually disarm the shield, it can be done on a locked shield, so it has some uses.
First, I think you are misreading the fighter's normal weapon mastery. He doesn't get to choose a new weapon style and increase his old one. He only gets to increase 1 weapon style. So he can either go for a +2/+2 or 2 +1/+1 when he gets his second, not a +2/+2 and a +1/+1. This significantly closes the gap that you see in the abilities.Sorry, but I think YOU are misreading it ;)
My bold.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
I guess I am. I will have to go back to my beta book to see if I am thinking of that.
I just went through and read the Archetype to make sure I understood it, and I can see why you don't like it. On the other hand, I can see it being worth it under the right circumstances. I could see myself taking the Free Hand Fighter if I was going into Duelist, as I'd be limited in weapons and armor anyway for one. Also, the Timely Tip could be useful for lowering an opponent's AC if it's too high without taking a hit to your next attack. Also, Interference could be useful for letting a rogue ally get off a sneak attack if they can't flank for some reason, and particularly if they have a high dodge/dex bonus to AC. But I'll agree that the Archetype is very situational, and I'd have to have the right party for most of the uses that I'd want out of the features.
I had a small thread in the Advice forum about that, Figuring out the free hand fighter
That's what I think (summing up): The first 10 levels are ok and worth playing, but after that you can't deal enough damage of any kind (altough the AC, CMD and touch AC are nice), so you better take the Duelist PrC then.
Ha! I missed that ... and I was lookin' for stuff like it, too.
*shakes head*
Well ... I'll look it over, too.
I'm still sticking to (a) I am underwhelmed with the mechanics presented for this archetype and (b) I am NOT going to force an "all or nothing" RAW selection of archetypes on my players ... at all.
I'm going "al-a-carte" with it and basically I'm going to look at *all* of the archetype suggestions as though they are "optional class features" instead of a prescribed path that must be taken.
It'll give the PC's a LOT more customization for their characters, and that, after all, is a good thing.
;-)
Core Fighter's Weapon Training ability is really the strongest version of it around. Many people seem to forget that it grants its bonus to CMB and CMD checks, which is a huge boost. I don't recall having seen any archetypes that changed Weapon Training but kept that caveat in. It was basically what you lost for allowing it to affect more weapons.
Core Fighter's Weapon Training ability is really the strongest version of it around. Many people seem to forget that it grants its bonus to CMB and CMD checks, which is a huge boost. I don't recall having seen any archetypes that changed Weapon Training but kept that caveat in. It was basically what you lost for allowing it to affect more weapons.
Anything that affects your bonus to hit with a weapon also affects your CMB with that weapon.
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I think I would definitely rule that you can carry objects in your free-hand, just not shields or weapons (so torches, potions, maps, etc.)
On top of that, I've been convinced by the arguments that this is a decent route into duelist.
This also contains some neat feats for a fighter without armour or shields.
Two weapon fighting, with an unarmed strike as your off hand.
Thats all im saying.
Two weapon fighting, with an unarmed strike as your off hand.
Thats all im saying.
One level dip into monk, for bonus goodness.
Core Fighter's Weapon Training ability is really the strongest version of it around. Many people seem to forget that it grants its bonus to CMB and CMD checks, which is a huge boost. I don't recall having seen any archetypes that changed Weapon Training but kept that caveat in. It was basically what you lost for allowing it to affect more weapons.Anything that affects your bonus to hit with a weapon also affects your CMB with that weapon.
I actually did not know that. I read the description of CMB as having a set amount of bonuses (going back, the ones in bold), and didn't notice it was an attack roll, so added anything that modifies your attack. Interesting. So making a trip with a weapon is now . . . really good. Interesting. That changes a lot for our group, heh.
*Wonders if you took Weapon Focus: Unarmed or Natural Attack you'd get a CMB bonus to grapple checks*
I'm going to be playing a Succubus soon and want to get every kind of Grapple bonus I can.
Yeah it's crap. Mobile fighter is pretty freaking awesome though. So is two hander.
So making a trip with a weapon is now . . . really good. Interesting.
Remember that only special weapons can be used on trip attacks. You can't normally use weapons for CMs other than disarm and sunder.
Personally I think every free hand fighter feature is fine, other than Timely Tip. This is because a feature that works only and specifically against shields is too limited for my tastes. Heck, even an ability that said "enemies don't get their shield bonuses against your attacks" wouldn't be good enough IMO.
First, I think you are misreading the fighter's normal weapon mastery. He doesn't get to choose a new weapon style and increase his old one. He only gets to increase 1 weapon style. So he can either go for a +2/+2 or 2 +1/+1 when he gets his second, not a +2/+2 and a +1/+1. This significantly closes the gap that you see in the abilities.
Elusive gives you increase in overall AC and reduces your need to max dexderity. Win-win for light armored fighters. Not everyone is going to be getting a 30 dex, and even then you will have higher AC than them.
As for singleton, instead of being restricted to a single type of weapon, you can use any type of weapon. If you want to use a single hand but vary weapon type, you get an advantage. Overall, I think this one is a wash. It has bonuses and penalties, most of which will never matter to the character.
Interference I disagree with you on. Greater Trip, for instance, will get you a free AoO. You can use Interference to trip at full BAB, get a free AoO at full BAB and flat footed, and then attack, at full BAB with your standard action. This as opposed to using your full BAB attack to trip, get a normal AoO, and then getting 2 more attacks at penalties. You are trading in 1 attack at -10 to get them flat footed for 1 attack and +5 to annother attack. Whether that is worth +1 to hit and damage, I'm not sure, but it is a useful ability. Combined with the bravery replacement, its pretty nice though.
I agree with you on Timely Trip. I just don't see the usefulness. Especially at the action cost. I would rather full attack and use my first attack to disarm the shield, though this isn't always an option, and since this doesn't actually disarm the shield, it can be done on a locked shield, so it has some uses.
bit late, but :shrugs:
Anyway you've been corrected on the first part, I'll just hit the rest right quick:
1) Elusive replaces Armor Training, so unlike other fighters that get MORE benefit to dex for the AT, this guy just gets an added dodge bonus. It means he *can't* get as much benefit as the standard fighter if using ANY armor at all ... about the *only* place where you can say this guy is clearly superior is if both are without armor, in which case this guy gets his bonus, and the other one won't really have much to help him. Now, I called it a wash either way since, in effect it's about a +1 AC difference to this guy's favor, BUT it's at the complete sacrifice of increasing the max Dex ranks like other fighters. I didn't say it was bad ... I just said it wasn't that great.
2) Singleton - you trade in 2-handed weapons and wpn bonuses (unless monkey grip is allowed I guess - even then not necessarily), you trade in increasing WT bonuses, and you only ever get a +1/+1 ... that's a lot to give up, IMO. So, you can use it w/*any* weapon in 1 hand ... so what? You're still sacrificing your other hand on top of it all, and frankly you're NOT getting much to replace it with.
3) Interference - you *do* realize the duration of this thing is TERRIBLE, right? "If successful, the target becomes flat-footed. This condition lasts until the target takes damage from a melee or ranged attack or until the beginning of the free hand fighter’s next turn, whichever comes first." This is good for all of 1 strike to deliver damage period (ie: the AoO basically), and THAT IS ALL! It is far worse than regular flat-footing on that front alone. Normally, FF lasts until the FF'd person gets to act (init order, next round, depends when, really). THIS thing, though ... it lasts until someone, ANYONE causes damage. The archer in the back hits him - effect is over. You hit him, effect is over. Your ally the rogue hits him w/SA die ... and IT is over as well. Any other strike the rogue has does NOT get the benefit of a FF target. I guess you *do* have a point on the 2 swings @ max vs. the 3 normal swings of the attack sequence. I mean ... the effect itself is *so* short-lived it's just terrible, IMO.
I am pretty sure Singleton is missing a line of text. Most of the other archetypes have a similar swapout that improves by +1/+1 every four levels after fifth (Expert Archer, Crossbow expert, Leaping Attack, Read Pike, Polearm training, Mounted Mettle, Natural Savagery, Shield Fighter, and Twin Blades)
Only the two-handed fighter and weapon master get something different. The two-handed fighter keeps a modified version of the regular weapon training and the weapon master gets a specialized version of weapon training (applied to a single weapon) beginning at 3rd level.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I am pretty sure Singleton is missing a line of text. Most of the other archetypes have a similar swapout that improves by +1/+1 every four levels after fifth (Expert Archer, Crossbow expert, Leaping Attack, Read Pike, Polearm training, Mounted Mettle, Natural Savagery, Shield Fighter, and Twin Blades)
Only the two-handed fighter and weapon master get something different. The two-handed fighter keeps a modified version of the regular weapon training and the weapon master gets a specialized version of weapon training (applied to a single weapon) beginning at 3rd level.
I am pretty sure I did leave out a line of text about Singleton scaling; as in, I intended to include it but it got lost in the wash at some point. If you are looking for RAI, you should add it in.
HOWEVER, whether that is added back as an official erratum to the RAW will have to wait for the official errata-givers to address, if you are playing PFS or other strict RAW.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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BTW, if you are interested in a simple "fix" for the Free Hand Fighter, you might consider this completely 100% non-official idea, now that I've had time to reflect on the finished product and people's responses well down the road from the initial design:
1. Given that Interference and Timely Tip are both situational actions that use a move action to essentially give you one advantageous attack, combine them; simply roll TT into Interference, to where it becomes an option - make someone flat-footed OR push their shield away. This gives you a handy choice between messing up a high-DEX enemy (FF) or a low-DEX shieldy enemy (TT). True, still not useful against every foe, but a nice trick.
Also, as a matter of FYI, the two tricks were intentionally created as a move action to allow you to do one in the same round as a standard action combat trick like Vital Strike, Cleave, Deadly Stroke, etc. (and, for that matter, to use your max BAB on both rolls) That part of it was done on purpose, not an oversight; whether you think it was good or a bad design decision is up to you.
2. Move Reversal to 13th level
3. Add an improved Reversal at 17th level (in place of Weapon Training 4, which oddly enough you still get with the FHF - that, I think, WAS an oversight) - basically, you can use it vs. a ranged attack instead of a melee attack.
4. Have them keep Armor Mastery at 19th level, but restricted to light armor, in keeping with their schtick.
5. On a side note, I think the Reposition and Steal combat maneuvers are potentially good fits with the class; I didn't know about them at the time of writing, but it might be something worth thinking about, allowing a FHF to trade disarm bonuses for one of those maneuvers.
So, one completely unofficial suggestion I would make to those of you underwhelmed out there, if you are looking for ways to spiff up the FHF, might be to consider the following changes:
5th: Singleton, add "The bonus for this ability increases by 1 for every 4 levels after 5th."
9th: Interference might be rewritten this way:
13th: Reversal, get it at 13th, and add this paragraph:
19th: Armor Training as normal, light armor only.
17th: Improved Reversal (Ex):
Thanks for that info! I'm sure there will be *many* beside myself that would be looking to adjust things to account for the intent, and to get a clear statement like the ones above from a designer is extremely beneficial! So, official or not, it doesn't get much better than coming from "the horses mouth" so to speak. ;-)
On the suggestions for adjustment - certainly MUCH more useful and palatable by your arrangement. Condensing 2 "situational" tactics is pretty nice for a "class feature" type of effect. However, I'd still say that the duration is far too short. Shatter Defenses, a *mere* Feat can make a target flat footed for an entire turn against the initiator only - it lasts until before the initiator's next round. So, as long as it works at least similarly in duration it may well come in-line with utility and useful application, IMO.
The swap around suggestion you have ... they *actually* make me think it now *can* hold it's own against the other Archetypes.
Thanks for putting that up! :-D
Don't you talk s*#@ about my free hand!
I see you there fighting, well I'm sipping my tea while fighting using my free hand !
I found it, mechanically, not too bad, but not really much of a game-changer. Conceptually, I found it weak. So, the best thing for a fighter wielding a single weapon to do is to go sticking his free hand out all the time?
In real life, a single weapon has its disadvantages, but you can hold a narrower stance, extend yourself more while keeping all of your offense in contact with the enemy, and dodge. Notably, long rapiers became the dominant fencing style, edging out rapier-and-dagger and rapier-and-buckler, without anybody touching anybody with their free hand except in corps-a-corps type situations. Likewise, the tai ji jian style ("Tai Chi sword" or scholar's sword) concentrates on full body movement and does not involve a lot of poking or grabbing shields and such. Most grabbing done in conjunction with a single weapon in most styles directly proceeds to, "And then stab your opponent in the neck." :)
I was hoping to see something that more credibly closed the gap, in much the same way Power Attack and so forth give two-handed users options for credible battlefield dominance. Any remaining weaknesses can be somewhat compensated for by maintaining basically one weapon, meaning the shield/second weapon slot "budget" can go into other areas.
Ultimately, I would say, "Pick a one-handed weapon and use it two-handed. Then say you're really using it one-handed, narritively, but you gain extra damage because you are focusing on one weapon instead of two, so the two-handed use doesn't necessarily mean you have two hands on the hilt at all times." Because I would pick that over this any day.
One level dip into monk, for bonus goodness.Two weapon fighting, with an unarmed strike as your off hand.
Thats all im saying.
one level ?
try 20 levels on Monk
1 temple sword and you can make 7-8 attacks as part of a flurry all with the one sword
imho this is a one handed fighter that not only doesn't suck, but would actually have you dealing a crazy bunch of damage with whatever magical version of a temple sword you can get your hands on.
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At 17th level, a FHF can use this ability when he is targeted with a ranged attack, including magical effects that require an attack roll or allow a Reflex save. Reversal cannot be used against area effects. This replaces weapon training 3 and 4.
Awesome image of deflecting ray of enfeeblement using shiny, shiny axe-head.
One level dip into monk, for bonus goodness.Two weapon fighting, with an unarmed strike as your off hand.
Thats all im saying.one level ?
try 20 levels on Monk
1 temple sword and you can make 7-8 attacks as part of a flurry all with the one sword
imho this is a one handed fighter that not only doesn't suck, but would actually have you dealing a crazy bunch of damage with whatever magical version of a temple sword you can get your hands on.
Wow ... that's actually pretty awesome!
Good call!
Deceptive Strike (replaces Bravery @ 2nd) - ok, so ... it's a bit *more* useful than bravery as that's so highly situational, and entirely defensive (ie: IF fear isn't happening much, THEN you're boned out of a class feature). On this front, it's an upgrade. Mechanically speaking, it's solid - it increases over time and grants a bonus on disarm and feint attempts, and it works when trying to make a diversion to hide (odd that last bit, but ok). Now, a +5 mechanically is a darn good edge to have - so this one actually is a *win* feature in my book. Of course, this is on a few of the maneuvers in the first place, so ... :shrugs: it's nice, but only a maneuver enhancer. Still, it's a *great* maneuver enhancer, so it's a solid win.
Agree with you here.
Elusive (replaces Armor Trining at all points) - well, starting at 3rd level you get a +1 dodge bonus to AC and it grows by an additional +1 every 4 levels thereafter. Thing is ... it completely trades in Armor Training. In other words, *all* armor-anything features of the class disappear entirely. You can't get a higher Max Dex or anything, so that's gone, too. On the surface, this is great! A +5 to AC as a dodge bonus ... but in play it's worse than armor training. If this guy goes w/even a mythril chain shirt, he's limited by dex to get a +6 max from dex to couple with his +5 to AC w/the dodge ==> +15 total counting the Chain Shirt value itself and adding it all together. So, compare vs. a regular fighter w/out this archetype option in play - his dex max bonus would/could be, after 4 levels of Armor Training up to a +10, so assuming the build *is* all about light armor and weapons and going finesse over strength, his AC would be ==> 10 + 4 = 14, flat. It's close, but this guy is actually able to mine and utilize his dex score a bit more than the free-hand fighter. This is ... just odd. I'm out to lunch on this one, as, it seems a wash really. The feature is nice, but grants NO significant advantage near as I can tell ... there's *maybe* a 1 point AC edge, but that's not until level 19 (LONG wait).
It would make more sense if it also allowed no upper limit on dex from the armour. Otherwise, you are actually better off going for bracers of armour than you are for the armour if your dex goes any higher.
Singleton (replaces WpnTrain 1) - ok, so a +1 to hit and +1 to damage when 1 weapon in 1 hand and nothing in the other ... how is this different from regular WT? Oh ... yes. It's LESS useful, actually. It limits your weapon selection AND prohibits any shield use. It's not even an option here ... the offense is now PRESCRIBING how it interacts w/defense (vs. the straight core class fighter). I'm calling this one a net-loss here. It's a more limited version of WT ... nothing more to say.
It would be good if it scaled as WT does, and many I think would house-rule this. Otherwise, this is best off going for ordinary fighter tactics.
Timely Tip (replaces WT 2) - ok, so where a normal fighter would be a +2/+2 and picking up a new weapon at +1/+1 (a feature NOT to be emulated by any other class mind you) ... this archetype is ... using his free hand to use a move-action to negate the effects of a shield's AC on a target. There is SO much wrong with this option it is just ridiculous. (1) Disarm is an attack action normally, no? So, you *could* disarm someone just with *any* attack, but now, it's increased in action cost!?!?!?! Seriously!?!?!?! (2) You've traded the 1, good thing Fighters do better than every other melee in PF - he's traded in damage superiority. (3) There is a feat in 3.5 from Complete Warrior that does something very similar for 2-wpn weilders. Essentially the 2-wpn guy forgoes his off hand attacks for the round in order to negate the target's AC bonus ... with a minor tweak, there's a "free hand" feat option to pull off the SAME mechanical effect. (4) No second "weapon of expertise" group is added to the fighter's weapon list. So, here we're trading defining Fighter class only features ... for what boils down to a mundane "Feat" choice, and one that INCREASES action economy at that ... this is HORRIBLE!!
Agree with you.
Interference (replaces WT 3) - use a move action to disarm or trip a target and cause them to become flat footed. Again ... so much wrong here. This time I'll list them, though: Disarm as a move vs. attack action; trip as a move vs. attack action; AoO is likely better than "flat footed"; Duration of "flat footed" is only until the character NEXT takes damage (ie: good for ONE hit, and ONE HIT only). Again, on the grounds of action activation and now duration of the effect, this is HORRIBLE!! In trade is the +3/+3 ; +2/+2; and now a +1/+1 to a new weapon type of expertise. I can never see this being worth the investment. If you want someone flat-footed, and want to use a move action to do it, Improved Feint will *already* to this ... THIS feature is a HORRIBLE mechanic.
Totally agree here.
Reversal (replaces Armor Mastery) - if you're about to be hit in melee, you can make an immediate Disarm check vs some different target that you threaten in melee range, and if successful the attacker hits the target you just made the disarm check on (unclear if you're actually *disarming* it or just using the disarm check as a measure of successfully redirecting the attack). So, what you have is a 1/round ability (if you've not used any other immediate actions) to negate a hit IF there are at least 2 people attacking you that you threaten when this hit is about to take place. It's kind of involved, but you can't deny the utility of this thing. Imagine doing it when someone/thing rolls a crit on you! Certainly nice, BUT it's a heavily circumstantial boon. IF there's no one around you, and IF you fail that Disarm check, you're boned. Now, by the time you hit this level, you've got a +5 class feature boon to Disarms, so presumably you've invested in Imp and Grtr Disarm as feats, so a +9 is a solid edge in favor to have (ie: this is *almost* a guarantee to work, but there's always the chance of a 1 at least). The trade-in, though is a solid guarantee and *always* pretty useful. Having a DR 5/- is great! -5 points from any/all incoming hits is a very, very nice thing! Having a situational "trump" move is also very nice (ie: I'd rather avoid damage entirely rather than negate a small bit of it). This is, honestly, a toss up for me as it's a pretty good concept and an ok, if slightly obtuse mechanic.
Yes ... this class variation, seems to be a bone thrown in a direction without much thought. I think they are just assuming that you'll go duelist and have done, so why try to hard?
That's my analysis, and what gets me going is that if you take an archetype you "must" take all of the rest of the features that go along with it. This is NOT a good thing for the majority of the options presented above. Of the 6 options, 2 are equal/a wash; 1 is an improvement, and 3 are actually WORSE options by far for the existing Fighter Class features. Why would you trade in *any* of this when 3 options are clearly worse and 2 are about equal?? There's only 1 improvement feature, and that's only with a plan on using some maneuvers with a regular degree of thought.
Nah ... I'm not going to use these things for long. In fact, I'm going to make *all* archetype class features like an "al-a-carte" menu for my players. Pick what you want, trade in the appropriate feature, and leave the rest where it is.
Sounds like a plan. In fact, I think that this is actually more what the designers planned than anything.
By the way, Speaker, if you recall our debates on Improved Weapon Finesse, I noticed Focussed Shot. Not it, but getting there ...
@Dabbler - glad to see there *is* progress being made, but did you catch the designer's comments a few posts up as well? Arranged THAT way, the "free hand" type manages to at least match up with the mechanics of the other archetypes - so it's FAR more competitive, and useful. I'll probably run another analysis w/the changes suggested to see how it matches up for fairness in build/design, though.
@LazarX: Of *course* there's balancing factor - at every point the archetype abilities are trading off *something* ... so, it doesn't matter what you're putting up for benefit - something else is *always* going to the chopping block for it - you know? Ugly combos? Only if the PC designs it that way. Nothing can be too abusive, IMO, as there's always a sacrifice somewhere.
I *think* I see what you're worried about, though - the WT bonus groups of +1/+1 that get bumped to increases every X levels, right? But they only trade in 1 WT choice, correct? If so, I say that's probably the *only* cautionary exchange because every other exchange is pretty explicit in terms of what is being traded in.
Even the +1/x levels exchange - it's kind of similar to just adding a new weapon type grouping to the fighter's selection of weapons, really.
@Dabbler - glad to see there *is* progress being made, but did you catch the designer's comments a few posts up as well? Arranged THAT way, the "free hand" type manages to at least match up with the mechanics of the other archetypes - so it's FAR more competitive, and useful. I'll probably run another analysis w/the changes suggested to see how it matches up for fairness in build/design, though.
That improves it somewhat, I agree. Hopefully we might see some of those changes in the errata?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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At 17th level, a FHF can use this ability when he is targeted with a ranged attack, including magical effects that require an attack roll or allow a Reflex save. Reversal cannot be used against area effects. This replaces weapon training 3 and 4.Awesome image of deflecting ray of enfeeblement using shiny, shiny axe-head.
Or better still, "Oops, hit your buddy instead!"
For the Free Hand Fighter I'd allow those things using disarm or trip to actually run the maneuver's course in addition to what they do now. Disarms and trips as reactions would be pretty interesting IMO.
For the Free Hand Fighter I'd allow those things using disarm or trip to actually run the maneuver's course in addition to what they do now. Disarms and trips as reactions would be pretty interesting IMO.
Now THAT is a damn nice idea!!!
Have it be all 100% defensive and dependent. So ... if an incoming attack comes at you, and misses, you can, as an Immediate Action use a disarm or trip maneuver against the target. How about that?
Heck, it *could* even be made just as a feat for 1-hand weapon fighting only. Feat-wise, I'd say it should be coupled with something like "while fighting defensively, using the full defense maneuver, OR using Combat Expertise ..." as a conditional clause as well.
I found a lot of the Fighter archetypes meh, especially Archery, which offered no improvement over a "vanilla" Fighter made up of archery feats.
But the Two-Handed Fighter? Holy cow.......
Archer, no improvement? No AoO for shooting, maneuvers at range,... Add some acrobatics and...
Legolas on the loose :D
Archer, no improvement? No AoO for shooting, maneuvers at range,... Add some acrobatics and...
Legolas on the loose :D
You can pick up Point Blank Master with one of your many, many feats, and you get manuevers at range at a -4 penalty. Seems like a featsink waiting to happen to me.
A quick point in the favor of the free hand fighter -- the elusive ability levels up every 4 levels... after level 2 instead of level 3. So you do get the dodge bonuses a bit faster than you would have the increase in Dex from armor. Also because this is an actual bonus to AC in many ways it's better than the armor training ability which only gives you the potential for higher AC while wearing armor (in addition to the movement increase in heavier armor of course).
Most of the rest here I think I agree with -- though in a campaign like CoT this archtype could be much more useful, due to its high number of humanoid weapon using opponents.
It's an improvement ... but you are still best off going duelist as soon as you can. It's now just about worth taking this option rather than normal fighter before you do so.
I found deadly stroke + crossbow fighter + double crossbow quite fun. For the rest, I essentially agree - sword and board is made to give a sort of TWF without MADness, but I agree is not that great.
Or better still, "Oops, hit your buddy instead!"At 17th level, a FHF can use this ability when he is targeted with a ranged attack, including magical effects that require an attack roll or allow a Reflex save. Reversal cannot be used against area effects. This replaces weapon training 3 and 4.Awesome image of deflecting ray of enfeeblement using shiny, shiny axe-head.
What if the overall enchantment level of the weapon used determined what level of spells or spell-like abilities could be deflected? For example, a +2 flaming longsword, at a total of +3, could deflect at most level 3 spell (or perhaps a level 2 spell if one borrowed the standard from Improved Counterspell, making a +10 just enough to deflect any spell).
My main thought was whether deflecting something powerful such as a 9th level spell as a fighter is balanced (it may be, I'm not really experienced enough to say), but also, from a design standpoint, sometimes it seems like magic is required/preferred to overcome other magic.
Just my two cents on a very fun ability. I'm curious whether my suggestion is appropriate, arbitrary, overly complex, too much of a nerf, etc.
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When I heard the words "Free hand fighter", I admit I had high hopes. I had an image of a fighter who used a free hand to wield and throw improvised weapons such as a cloak, stein, barstool, or dirt clod. I thought perhaps he might leave that hand free for the use of exceptionally cool and useful magic items, such as sovereign glue or tanglefoot bags. I was sorely mistaken.
What we got was a dandy. A fop who can't wear real armor, loses damage potential for very little reason, and focuses entirely on several combat maneuvers that become useless in the wrong situation (like if you're fighting any of the 90% of all enemies who don't have shields, or the 70% who have natural weapons only...).
On the other hand, he's going to have a killer CMD. I'm pretty sure dodge bonuses add to your CMD, just like deflection modifiers do, and this guy gets a bunch of 'em. Heck, 'dodge' might even be a good feat for him!