I recently started playing a Paladin.
The APG adds lots of these "extra" this and that feats for various class abilities (Rage powers, Discoveries, Hexes, Rogue talents.. etc..)
Yet, I didn't find any Extra Smite Evil feat... Did I miss something? Was it placed in some other supplement I missed?
Yeah the fact there doesn't need to be an extra smite feat.
Smite is enough as is and much more powerful than any of what the other "extra" feats give (in most cases... stares meaningfully and menancingly at the oracle and its revelations).
There is no "Extra Smite" feat in Pathfinder RPG.
However, a paladin can take the Channel Smite feat after 4th level, as well as the Extra Lay On Hands feat.
A single extra smite, (or even multiple extra smites for multiple feats), would not instantly break the Paladin. Not even close.
The problem I see, is with plenty of evil targets, i.e. enough that you need all those smites, Extra Smite would be worth two or three feats. If you're not fighting enough evil enemies, i.e. the smites you have are enough, then this feat is utterly useless. Paladins are swingy enough going from game breakingly awesome against certain enemies,and strictly mediocre against others. There doesn't need to be a feat to increase the swinginess.
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The Extra Smite feat in 3.5 would add 1 additional Smite attack. The change provided by PFRPG to the Smite Evil ability made this feat Not Applicable, as it no longer has a set duration in either rounds or number of attacks.
All the Extra XXX feats provided in the core rulebook and the APG either
A) give you new opportunities to get one of your class' special abilities (Discovery, Hex, Rage Power, Revelation, Rogue Talent, Mercy),
B) add rounds to a duration (Performance, Rage) or
C) add a number of times you can use specific "actions" (swift, standard or attacks) that do not last more than a round (Bombs, Channel, Ki, Lay on Hands)
None of these apply to Smite Evil, ergo no Extra Smite Evil feat.
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The current group I am GM'ing for has 3 Paladins....
I'd like to vote no for any additional smites please =)
In my King Maker game I'm running one of the players decided to be Paladin. That's the first time I've really seen on in play. They are 6th level now and I have to say the Smite Evil isn't all that effective in most cases. The biggest reason it most of the encounter while they are evil are multiple lower CR creatures. Since you can only choose one target you end up using your smite evil up in one encounter or not using it all. Since the 6 level Paladin only has two use it's severely limited. Though when it's one BBEG it's quite useful. I don't think extra smite as feat would unbalance anything. I doubt anyone would take it though. Paladins are feat starved as it is. I know the player in my game wouldn't, he has his feats planned out to 20th and no room for extra lay on hand let alone extra smite.
In my King Maker game I'm running one of the players decided to be Paladin. That's the first time I've really seen on in play. They are 6th level now and I have to say the Smite Evil isn't all that effective in most cases. The biggest reason it most of the encounter while they are evil are multiple lower CR creatures. Since you can only choose one target you end up using your smite evil up in one encounter or not using it all. Since the 6 level Paladin only has two use it's severely limited. Though when it's one BBEG it's quite useful. I don't think extra smite as feat would unbalance anything. I doubt anyone would take it though. Paladins are feat starved as it is. I know the player in my game wouldn't, he has his feats planned out to 20th and no room for extra lay on hand let alone extra smite.
I think it would depend on the party layout and paladin build. IMHO it is more valuable at lower levels than higher levels though since you can burn more of them at higher levels.
I don't recommend allowing an Extra Smite feat (and I'm *playing* a paladin right now). However, if you did:
Extra smite
prerequisites must have smite evil as a class feature,
you may smite 1 additional time per day
you may not take this feat multiple times.
The bolded part is *vital* to preventing this from getting out of hand.
And honestly, this should never be allowed for a Paladin "dipper". Seriously - Sorcerer 10/Paladin 1, with Extra smiting to get 7 or 8 to AC against whatever actually gets near him?
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In my King Maker game I'm running one of the players decided to be Paladin. That's the first time I've really seen on in play. They are 6th level now and I have to say the Smite Evil isn't all that effective in most cases.
In my Shackled City there are two Paladins (both 19th level) and in a AP that has more then it's fair share of D,U,E as BBEG's they are well effective enough without being able to have extra smites. We are gearing up for Kingmaker next and a Paladin would not be nearly as effective in that AP. Extra Smite, as with most things fits into "It Depends on the situation". In general I would say that extra smite, now that the duration is "until you rest or the target is dead", would be overpowering.
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I don't recommend allowing an Extra Smite feat (and I'm *playing* a paladin right now).
I don't either -- Smite went from being a "boss tickler" in 3.5 to a "boss slayer" in Pathfinder. As a CHA 20 paladin with kicked-in Smite, you're +5 to attack and +5 to AC versus your target and paladin-level to damage until he's dead, and that could be many, many attacks.
Smite is a bit too much as it is, the last thing needed is an Extra Smite.
And that's coming from a guy who's playing a Paladin in Council of Thieves.
...I read it as "Where is the 'Extra SMILE Evil' feat?" :) ...I find it perfectly balanced to add a feat that makes your smile extra evil...
IMHO should be very high level (15?), and 1 extra smite at max, without the option of taking the feat multiple times.
Not advocating this but,
Rangers get the instant enemy spell.
Maybe you could homebrew a Pally Extra Smite spell?
I'd recommend 4th level though
where is the silver smite bracelet?
I have to say I disagree - let the level 10 paladin have his four or five extra smites. Feat starved as he is already, blowing them all on his class gimmick is just fine.
I recently started playing a Paladin.
The APG adds lots of these "extra" this and that feats for various class abilities (Rage powers, Discoveries, Hexes, Rogue talents.. etc..)
Yet, I didn't find any Extra Smite Evil feat... Did I miss something? Was it placed in some other supplement I missed?
There are several feats Paladin's can take to enhance their class abilities. Extra Lay on Hands and Extra Mercy are specific to them. In addition, they gain access to the various Channel feats available to Clerics.
When I play a Paladin, instead of extra smites, I really want ways to extend my various aura's. I'm in a RotRL campaign and so many rooms are sized for huge, or bigger, creatures, that the party is so spread out that it's rare for anyone to be benefiting from them.
Not advocating this but,
Rangers get the instant enemy spell.
Maybe you could homebrew a Pally Extra Smite spell?
I'd recommend 4th level though
where is the silver smite bracelet?
WUT?
The two things are not even comparable. Look at the numbers. Think about aura of justice.
And let's not add in WANDS.
In my King Maker game I'm running one of the players decided to be Paladin. That's the first time I've really seen on in play. They are 6th level now and I have to say the Smite Evil isn't all that effective in most cases.In my Shackled City there are two Paladins (both 19th level) and in a AP that has more then it's fair share of D,U,E as BBEG's they are well effective enough without being able to have extra smites. We are gearing up for Kingmaker next and a Paladin would not be nearly as effective in that AP. Extra Smite, as with most things fits into "It Depends on the situation". In general I would say that extra smite, now that the duration is "until you rest or the target is dead", would be overpowering.
It sure isn't that useful off the start in King Maker but Part 3 the Paladin will get a real chance to shine.
I don't think a feat that grants 1 extra smite is an issue. If I was playing a Paladin I wouldn't bother with it. First there are too many feats at low level I want. Like I want weapon focus, Power Attack and Cleave. So 3rd level if I'm human 5th I'm not to get those feats. At 7th I'd be looking at Vital Strike. If I had the dex I'd go sword and board with TWF fighting and shield bashing. It would be sacrifice to take extra Smite. I find that already for Extra Lay on Hands.
Basically you'd give up something to get it.
Adding another tick in the "Extra Smite would be grossly overpowering" column. It's so unbelievably potent in action now, I cannot see this possibly being balanced, even with harsh limitations.
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I have to say I disagree - let the level 10 paladin have his four or five extra smites.LOL! The rest of the party might as well just stay home in any battle vs evil.
Feat starved as he is already, blowing them all on his class gimmick is just fine.
"Feat-starved"? This is Pathfinder -- compared to 3.5, nobody is feat-starved, and, with the altered favored-class mechanic, everyone essentially has Improved Toughness (1hp/lvl) for free if they want it.
About the only feat my 3.5 paladin really needed was Power Attack -- so I could cheese the CHA bonus to smite into a big-league two-hander swing. All other feats were superfluous.
(My current Pathfinder paladin, a halfling archer rogue/paladin multiclass, will have Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Weapon Finesse and Power Attack all before 10th level without taking any levels in fighter -- and I fully intend to "break" every Society mod I play while playing "up".)
I have to say I disagree - let the level 10 paladin have his four or five extra smites.LOL! The rest of the party might as well just stay home in any battle vs evil.Feat starved as he is already, blowing them all on his class gimmick is just fine."Feat-starved"? This is Pathfinder -- compared to 3.5, nobody is feat-starved, and, with the altered favored-class mechanic, everyone essentially has Improved Toughness (1hp/lvl) for free if they want it.
About the only feat my 3.5 paladin really needed was Power Attack -- so I could cheese the CHA bonus to smite into a big-league two-hander swing. All other feats were superfluous.
(My current Pathfinder paladin, a halfling archer rogue/paladin multiclass, will have Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Weapon Finesse and Power Attack all before 10th level without taking any levels in fighter -- and I fully intend to "break" every Society mod I play while playing "up".)
Sarcasm does not travel well, I'm afraid!
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Sarcasm does not travel well, I'm afraid!
Heh. -- Those who don't think Smite is the complete shizzits in Pathfinder should attempt to envision a Manyshot for four attacks at 7th level against "Smite-buddy", who'll be taking +4 to attack and +5 damage (from 5 paladin levels at that point). Per arrow. Until he's DEAD.
-- I could kill a guy lobbing Nerf darts at him with those kinds of bonuses.
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Not impressed at the thought of 'Extra Smite'. But then, I was also one of the ones who didn't think the new Smite Evil was overpowered in the Beta. So it's hardly surprising.
Every feat spent on Extra Smite is one less being spent on other things. If one dimensional paladins are your thing, it's great.
Not advocating this but,
Rangers get the instant enemy spell.
Maybe you could homebrew a Pally Extra Smite spell?
I'd recommend 4th level though
where is the silver smite bracelet?
WUT?
The two things are not even comparable. Look at the numbers. Think about aura of justice.
And let's not add in WANDS.
Damn, Forgot about Aura of Justice. I've seen silver smite bracelet now. That's plenty good.
Move along, nothing to see here.
Two problems with smite:
It makes the paladin inconsistent. If you boost up the paladins Cha, at the expense of other stats, you get a character who is generally mediocre in combat (for a full BAB type), but who can become devastating in a few specific encounters. Either the paladin practically solos the encounter, or he struggles to be effective.
The other problem is directly tied to the nature of ~4 characters Vs. 1 BBEG. While many folks consider this poor encounter design, it is a staple of fantasy, and still comes up fairly often in printed mods, especially as the big finale. Smite causes the paladin to be devastatingly effective against the BBEG, while the other players are put into a background role in comparison. Either the GM ups the power of the monster to compete with the paladin, or he gets waxed. I consider this more a problem with encounter design then smite itself, but it is still a problem.
I think a better solution then allowing extra smites would be to spread the paladins powers to the rest of the party. For example, a feat that would allow allies adjacent to the paladin to get the AC bonus from smite, or allow others to bypass DR. Perhaps a feat that allowed the paladin to use Aura of justice more (although I would prefer it didn't give ALL the benefits of smite...)
I haven't really thought through the solutions, but giving the paladin extra smites without toning down smite raises the power level too much.
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I think a better solution then allowing extra smites would be to spread the paladins powers to the rest of the party. For example, a feat that would allow allies adjacent to the paladin to get the AC bonus from smite, or allow others to bypass DR. Perhaps a feat that allowed the paladin to use Aura of justice more (although I would prefer it didn't give ALL the benefits of smite...)
You should check out Faiths of Purity, then. There's a feat in there that specifically allows you to share your smite AC bonus with an ally.
Also it's just a great read.
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I don't recommend allowing an Extra Smite feat (and I'm *playing* a paladin right now).I don't either -- Smite went from being a "boss tickler" in 3.5 to a "boss slayer" in Pathfinder. As a CHA 20 paladin with kicked-in Smite, you're +5 to attack and +5 to AC versus your target and paladin-level to damage until he's dead, and that could be many, many attacks.
Honestly, you could rule Smite down to a swift action for a single rounds' attacks, and it would still be a boss vaporizer, because you left out the +damage and automatic ignoring of DR.
My group is 13th level, coming up soon on a demilich. At 95 hp, DC 20/vorpal, magic immunity and huge saves, it should be pretty much the most terrifying thing they'll ever face. If the pally was absent, it would be a PC death/round until all the death wards get up, and then a tedious slog of the PCs trying to beat it to death.
Add the pally, and we get a full attack with 95% hit on the first two swings, and 75% on the third (85% if he's already got Holy active on the sword). 20% chance of threat, which will basically auto-confirm. Each hit will do 1d8+31+(2d6 optionally), ignoring DR. Minimum damage will 1-round-kill it, assuming he manages to not roll a 1 on attack.
He can destroy 4 bosses a day like that...he really doesn't need any more :)
Not impressed at the thought of 'Extra Smite'. But then, I was also one of the ones who didn't think the new Smite Evil was overpowered in the Beta. So it's hardly surprising.
Every feat spent on Extra Smite is one less being spent on other things. If one dimensional paladins are your thing, it's great.
+1 on that.
More smiting is less likely to mean the paladin can roll a single hard encounter better (because he'd already use his smite for that, if applicable) and more mean that he has a bit more staying power for a longer adventuring day.
Which, I'm sorry, as good as PF Smite is, does not freak me out.
Each hit will do 1d8+31+(2d6 optionally), ignoring DR. Minimum damage will 1-round-kill it, assuming he manages to not roll a 1 on attack.
Ok, so smite is +13 damage, where's the other +18 per hit coming from?
I'm not saying it isn't doable, I'm just curious -- and if smite isn't the lion's share of the damage is it really that scary? Paladins already have a very clean way to ignore DR in Bless Weapon, so while I'm not saying that part is useless, it means less to a paladin than it would to a class that didn't have that spell on tap.
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It makes the paladin inconsistent. If you boost up the paladins Cha, at the expense of other stats, you get a character who is generally mediocre in combat (for a full BAB type), but who can become devastating in a few specific encounters. Either the paladin practically solos the encounter, or he struggles to be effective.
A "chaladin" may have STR -1 or -2 versus a straight fighter build (who isn't also a barbarian), but his saves will be through the roof, and he'll have swift-action self-healing on demand. Assuming roughly similar AC to the fighter (and better AC than a barbarian), he'll be still chugging while the figher is wheezing on the floor making stability-checks -- even if he otherwise has -1 or -2 HP/lvl than the fighter.
The "chaladin" also has useful social skills out-of-combat, whereas a brute paladin with his bonuses in strength is basically just a fighter with slightly better saves and a nice bonded weapon.
Each hit will do 1d8+31+(2d6 optionally), ignoring DR. Minimum damage will 1-round-kill it, assuming he manages to not roll a 1 on attack.Ok, so smite is +13 damage, where's the other +18 per hit coming from?
At 13th level (his example), I'm assuming Holy Sword. Or a little less bonus, with an assist from Power Attack. Throw in a bardsong or other stacking numerical effects, and it's easy for a high-level pally to do 40 or 50 a swat before even rolling the weapon's die.
(And, because someone was snickering over my halfling earlier, I'll say that the most horrifyingly destructive combat-monster I ever saw was a 3e pixie paladin on a hummingbird. +6 racial CHA bonus. Smite + Spirited Charge + Power Attack (holding lance in two hands) + enhancement bonuses to damage + morale bonuses to damage + INT bonuses to damage from some darn thing = bloody hideous carnage. He'd do like 1d2 with his Swizzle-stick lance, then add a billion. And his AC was almost 40 because he was a tiny creature. It was just stupid.)
Throw in a bardsong or other stacking numerical effects, and it's easy for a high-level pally to do 40 or 50 a swat before even rolling the weapon's die.
Oh, absolutely. But that's also true for fighters, barbarians, etc. etc. etc. None of which need Extra Smite to do so.
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Throw in a bardsong or other stacking numerical effects, and it's easy for a high-level pally to do 40 or 50 a swat before even rolling the weapon's die.Oh, absolutely. But that's also true for fighters, barbarians, etc. etc. etc. None of which need Extra Smite to do so.
What a paladin can do which the others cannot is generate an attack-bonus which is so high than he can effectively Power Attack full-time while Smiting.
Example; my halfling archer rogue/paladin takes Deadly Aim (which is essentially Power Attack for arrows). Around 10th, each of my attacks versus smite-buddy will run about +7 over another class with a similar cash-into ranged weapon (CHA:22 +2 bonded weapon -1 BAB from rogue level = +7). The only way another class can match that is to so min-max their starting stats that their saving throws and "flexibility quotient" are complete junk.
In any high-level combat with a paladin, an evil boss dies like a mouse under a rain of hammers unless he has Smite Good.
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Extra Smite would be fine to have. It'll only be really useful at low levels because there's only 1/day for a while. The paladin gets to kill an evil opponent better than before. Big whoop, don't take Power Attack, don't take Cleave, don't take Point-Blank Shot, don't take whatever feat that might be useful in the campaign.
While the smite ability is really powerful, I think the archetypes that slow smite advancement are the paladins who would be most likely to take the extra smite feat if it were available.
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What a paladin can do which the others cannot is generate an attack-bonus which is so high than he can effectively Power Attack full-time while Smiting.
Are you kidding? This is definitely not true.I've seen 8th level fighters in Society play always use PA unless the monster/villian AC got above 30.
My straight fighter build between WF, GWF, Weapon training, and magic weapons hit a +20 to hit at 9th level. I could hit any AC of 22or less as long as I don't roll a one. And had a 50/50 shot of any AC 30 or below. A pally only can get close to that while smiting.
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"WF, GWF, Weapon training" give a fighter +4 to attack at 9th versus a class who does not have them, or about half that of a smiting paladin with split emphasis on his attack attribute and charisma. All three of the fighter abilities are weapon-group specific; a paladin's smite bonuses apply to everything.
Everything else the fighter has in that +20 to hit at 9th (BAB, attribute, and enhancement bonuses to both attributes and weapons, ~ 9+5+1=+16) will be just as good in another well-built character.
Pathfinder Smite rocks; and when put into archery, it's really sick.
Each hit will do 1d8+31+(2d6 optionally), ignoring DR. Minimum damage will 1-round-kill it, assuming he manages to not roll a 1 on attack.
Ok, so smite is +13 damage, where's the other +18 per hit coming from?
I'm not saying it isn't doable, I'm just curious -- and if smite isn't the lion's share of the damage is it really that scary? Paladins already have a very clean way to ignore DR in Bless Weapon, so while I'm not saying that part is useless, it means less to a paladin than it would to a class that didn't have that spell on tap.
The smite gets past the unique DR. This means 20 points that wouldn't have counted, now count because of the smite.
So smite is giving +13 damage at minimum, +20 over a normal person's attack if he has at least +7 damage from other sources, and up to +33 at most if he has +20 damage from other sources.If it didn't ignore DR, then it'd be a little less crazy, yes.
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Ok, I only have 1 prerequisite for a feat to be overpowered for my games.
If a feat is so good that anyone building a character that COULD take advantage of the feat WOULD take it regardless of other feats they qualify for then it is too powerful.
If it were an option, I would have a hard time seeing anyone playing a Paladin that isn't going for some strange niche fighting style not taking it at first level. It is a good feat, maybe not too much to break the class but it is still too good nonetheless, and that is why it doesn't exist.
My assumption is that Smite was powered-up because fighters and clerics also got an upgrade. Wow...what a power-up.
This and other stuff Paladin took were needed. 3.5 paladin was awful. Now is a true defender of the weak and punisher of the evildoer.