Power point and Vancian magic systems


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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WWWW wrote:

Yeah I think wraithstrike is talking about targeted abilities which also require line of sight or being touching.

Also I would say you are quite a bit to hung up on damage. Really with the amounts of damage available in the game if doing damage really mattered then many classes would be overpowered since many classes can make one or more attacks that do several hundred damage per attack even. Really I don't see damage as such a big dead when one can get something like a barbarian doing +180ish per attack for multiple attacks without much trouble. I mean oh no 15d6 damage or oh no 500 damage.

As far as core material goes it's kind of a big deal. I'm not comparing this to Pathfinder stuff or leap attacking etc. etc. fighters, just straight out artillery between the casters.

The several hundreds of damage per attack abilities are broken, btw. Just because they exist doesn't make them less so.


Evil Lincoln wrote:


This is something I always try to impress on people when they are first exposed to the Vancian system: It is not skill based. Divine and Arcane spells are formulae that create a tangible effect that has nothing to do with your own skill at magic. Heck, you can even fake it.

These notions have gone perpetually unexplained through several editions of the game. It wouldn't take much to contextualize Vancian magic so that people didn't freak out about it. I hope there will be a few paragraphs in Ultimate Magic describing magic as it is perceived in-world, and what to expect when you try to duplicate popular skill-based magic tropes with Pathfinder magic. I hope whatever far-off revision of the core rules includes this kind of info too.

(snip)

Context, context, context.

Every explanation for arcane magic has only created more questions; if it isn't a skill based system, then how can you get better at it? If it's purely memorization, then why don't high-level wizards have incredible powers of memory in general? If it's just a factor of having performed a ritual, then why can't anyone cast spells by performing the same ritual? If it's the channelling of arcane energies, then why don't wizards have a general pool of arcane energy they can use as they wish?

It's painfully obvious how magic was originally designed, or to be more precise, how it was NOT designed. Early gamers just made up an arbitrary hodge-podge list of magic powers, then grouped them roughly according to which ones were stronger than others, without any rhyme or reason, and created a few restrictions to limit it. Subsequent editions have tried to clean up some of the more glaring problems, but magic overall has never been properly systematized based on any sort of internal logic.

Until the magic system is rebuilt from the ground up, it will always be a problem. And until someone has the guts to step up and define the way arcane magic functions and then bring the rest of the system in line with that explanation, there will be no sense to it.


Magathus wrote:

It's painfully obvious how magic was originally designed, or to be more precise, how it was NOT designed. Early gamers just made up an arbitrary hodge-podge list of magic powers, then grouped them roughly according to which ones were stronger than others, without any rhyme or reason, and created a few restrictions to limit it. Subsequent editions have tried to clean up some of the more glaring problems, but magic overall has never been properly systematized based on any sort of internal logic.

Ya see, other than the tactical/strategic aspect, this is one of the reasons I really like the Vancian system - it's quirky, eccentric and abstruse..

..which is how I see the study of magic :)

*shakes fist*


Madcap Storm King wrote:

As far as core material goes it's kind of a big deal. I'm not comparing this to Pathfinder stuff or leap attacking etc. etc. fighters, just straight out artillery between the casters.

The several hundreds of damage per attack abilities are broken, btw. Just because they exist doesn't make them less so.

Er it looks like the problem is the difference in optimization levels in our expected play experience and well that rather makes discussion about the relative power of psionics meaningless since I doubt we shall agree on what they should be related to. For example I would say I don't care what the damage output of the psion versus the wizard at the particular optimization levels presented is since I find it wasteful either way or how we have different views on what is a reasonable damage output. So yeah our perspectives seem to be too different on what is reasonable for comparison to agree on this matter.


Madcap Storm King wrote:
Weird, I could've sworn I had posted something... Ah well.

That happens a lot ...

Madcap Storm King wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


If they are that weak, don't bother with a fireball, a burning hands will do enough that the party fighter can just mop them up, and that is indeed a valid tactic. As I said, area effects are harder to get in psionics than in arcane magic.
They're not that much harder. You get a medium range energy blast that doesn't have quite the radius of fireball and a pretty decently sized cone. For non-blasters, yes, you basically get one.

For a non-kineticist they aren't. You have swarm of crystals (15' cone), energy stun 5' radius, energy bolt (line) and energy burst (huge area but only emanating from you - I personally don't like powers that mean you have to be closer to the enemy than to your allies, or else kill your allies).

Madcap Storm King wrote:
Quote:
Er ... they do? I don't recall that in 3.5 at all. Energy stun is as close as you get, does less damage and effects one thing.
Energy Stun's radius is 5 feet and it does the same damage as any other kineticist spell.

So it's a small area effect, yes. You are wrong about the damage, though - it starts at only 1d6 with a 2nd level power, so it will always be 2d6 behind any other energy power.

Madcap Storm King wrote:
Quote:

That's a valid tactic, but there are others. When I was in the Skeleton Moon scenario a year ago, there was a shining example. Outside the tower we realise we have half-a-dozen cockatrice's approaching us (this is in 3.5, we are 1st/2nd level, so these are nasty), the druid says one word that changes the encounter from a possible TPK to a cakewalk: "Entangle." Then we just shoot the ones that break free as they break free.

The real ace wizards have is what they term "battlefield control", and most will take that over direct damage any day.

Battlefield control doesn't work in a lot of situations. Against a bunch of monsters of the same type, sure it'll work. But...

1. Against another wizard/druid.

Now, this is mostly with the ring of improved counterspelling, but eventually if you get into a control fight the two of you will lock down the field so badly that nothing can happen. If someone tries to lock up your allies with a bunch of terrain effects, you mass fly them to escape pretty much anything they can do otherwise. Which means a lot of their prep is now useless.

OK, so a ring of counterspelling is effective against battlefield control but in what way is it NOT effective against blasting spells? If you are in a duel with another arcane caster, you are in a whole different ballgame with each trying to take out the other.

Madcap Storm King wrote:

2. Against a mixed group.

Anyone can tell you that wind wall is the best spell for stopping archers in the game. However, wind walling against a group with half archers and half melee fighters is a no win situation. Your groups will end up closing, meaning that all you've done is make sure the archers can't hit you instead of doing something better.

Actually hitting the archers with black tentacles is a much better tactic, then you can beat up the other guys. If you have a druid rather than a wizard, warp wood takes them out of the missile equation as easily. Alternatively use grease to slow down the melee fighters so that they cannot reach you until you have shot the cr@p out of the archers.

The object of battlefield control is to break up and slow down foes into 'bite-sized chunks'. Wind wall is not battlefield control, and neither is obscuring mist, it's a defensive spell. Fog cloud would effectively stop the archers (can't see, can't shoot), as would darkness or pyrotechnics if they have a fire source near them.

Madcap Storm King wrote:

3. With a non-ranged capable group against intelligent foes.

{stuff}

What this shows is that you aren't using battelfield control to break up the enemy, you are trying to use it to neutralise all of the enemy. Any battlefield control that deprives you of sight of the enemy is something you do not use on all of them, because it renders them all effectively invisible - that's a no-brainer. Use it on half of them to slow them down, sure, but beat up the other half while they are working out where they are.

Madcap Storm King wrote:
My playstyle with druids or wizards is simple. One area control spell tops. You don't need spike stones and ice storm for any real reason, and in fact I've nearly slapped people for casting sleet storm at the wrong time. Strange how lower level area control effects can be superior in some cases, letting you cast in more easily, whereas high level spells are an invitation to enemies to have both parties fight fully buffed, which is rarely a good idea against anything but mooks. I've seen Evard's Black Tentacles boosted with heighten spell a number of times because it doesn't block line of sight and it's a good anti-caster spell, whereas solid fog got left because no missiles can go through it.

Black tentacles is a very good BC spell, yes. Never underestimate the power of illusions, either: silent image is a spell that can duplicate many BC effects. I think your tactics are too fixated on stopping everyone, rather than breaking up foes. Entangle is good because some foes will save and get out and some won't, and this acts to break them up the way you want them.

Madcap Storm King wrote:
Not to say that there aren't times when you want a giant wall of fog between you and a foe, but if he isn't going to waste a few minutes going through it and instead decides to buff himself, he has a one turn advantage on you.

If it's one foe, why are you doing this at all - it doesn't achieve much. Hit him with grease instead so he sits on his backside while you use him as a pincushion. The point of BC is not to give him a hiding place but to put him where and how you want him.

Madcap Storm King wrote:
There is no best way to play when you're playing against someone who's seen a decent chunk of the game, and who has a greater dispel magic ready.

That dispel magic is going to be effective against anything you throw, whatever it is - direct attack, battfield control, buff/debuff, conjuration, whatever. Your best bet is to get them to waste it on something minor rather than your big guns.


Madcap Storm King wrote:

I wouldn't have a hardcap, maybe a small table to make it so trying to acquire low level spells later doesn't take as long. But yeah, those are houserules.

Hmmmm, sounds interesting! Did you do one for Potions and Scrolls, too? And would you care to share with the class?

Magathus wrote:

"Until the magic system is rebuilt from the ground up, it will always be a problem. And until someone has the guts to step up and define the way arcane magic functions and then bring the rest of the system in line with that explanation, there will be no sense to it."

+1

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