Rods of Foolishness


Advice

The Exchange

Hey All--

I have a homebrew evocation blaster type running around Golarion blowing things up as is his want.

I have the option to get myself one of them pretty metamagic rods.

I think I want either a rod of Empower or Maximize but don't know which one will be better for all my evocation spells (fireball, call lightning, flame strike, etc.).

Which one would you suggest and why? And what math are you using behind it?

Thanks.

-Pain


Rods of Empower add 50% damage if your damage is coming from dice and not flat mods. Rods of Maximize double average damage under the same conditions.

As more dice are rolled, things tend to average out, so you calc average damage with each effect. For example, as an epic spellcaster I rolled and counted 30+ dice a few times before I told the DM the +/-6 damage I was doing wasn't worth the time spent counting.

So a 10th level Wizard casting an Empowered Fireball does 15d6 dice, for an average of 52.5 damage, but a Maximized Fireball does 60 damage.

So Maximize is almost always better.


Rod of Maximize is more worth the bang for your buck than a rod of empower. What level are you and how much cash do you have to spend?

You primarily want a rod of quicken metamagic first and foremost, even if you have the feat. A greater rod of quicken metamagic lets you quicken 9th level spells, for god's sake... but it's also a huge chunk of change.

A good way to think of rods is as a variable crutch. Use it when you need it, but make sure to always try to get all 3 casts per day. As far as rods that aren't empower or maximize go, I'd suggest a rod of extend metamagic lesser and then a rod of maximize metamagic along with a rod of any other thing you think appropriate-- selective metamagic from the APG is good (exclude allies from fireballs and cones of cold), intensify spell from the APG (make your fireballs do up to 5d6 above their damage cap, making your shocking grasp into a level 1 10d6 electricity bomb), reach metamagic (nothing says "lol" like being able to buff allies with touch spells like fly as a close range spell, or dropping touch spells at 25ft reach) as is enlarge metamagic for extra oomph when you want to blow up people. Place all of the above in an efficient quiver and then get ready to juggle. It's all about the usefulness, being Batman.

As an aside:

K wrote:


So a 10th level Wizard casting an Empowered Fireball does 15d6 dice...

I always thought that empower is 1.5x the normal result.

So an empowered fireball would be 10d6 + half of the result = the total damage.

10d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 1, 6, 5, 6, 5, 3, 4, 6) = 43 ... half of 43 is 21. The total for the empowered fireball is 64. That kind of thing.

Maximized, it's 60. Maximized and empowered, it's 60 + half of the normally rolled result, so in this case, 60 + 21 for 81.

I see it like... if a monster is vulnerable to fire, and you hit it with alchemist's fire, they do not take extra dice of damage. You increase the damage dealt by 50%, aka half the normally rolled result. The same is true of empower.

Right?


Ice Titan wrote:
K wrote:


So a 10th level Wizard casting an Empowered Fireball does 15d6 dice...

I always thought that empower is 1.5x the normal result.

So an empowered fireball would be 10d6 + half of the result = the total damage.

10d6 ... half of 43 is 21. The total for the empowered fireball is 64. That kind of thing.

Maximized, it's 60. Maximized and empowered, it's 60 + half of the normally rolled result, so in this case, 60 + 21 for 81.

I see it like... if a monster is vulnerable to fire, and you hit it with alchemist's fire, they do not take extra dice of damage. You increase the damage dealt by 50%, aka half the normally rolled result. The same is true of empower.

Right?

That works too.... you don't get a different result. My friends just roll more dice because they suck at math. Technically, you run the 1.5 multiplication.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

But the average roll of 10d6 is 35.
Divide by 2 equals 17.5.
Add to 35 is 52.5, just as demonstrated above.

Are you going to hope for above average rolls or just take the flat 60? Guess it depends on how much of a gambler you are.

Suppose you roll lots of 1s? Get 20 points of damage, x1.5, equaling 30. Would you rather have Maximized?


Painlord wrote:


Which one would you suggest and why? And what math are you using behind it?

What level are you, and how much spare cash do you have?

If you have access to the Advanced Player's Guide, there are some powerful metamagic rods in there:
-Rod of Dazing: daze your opponents for multiple rounds on a failed save (same cost as Maximize)
-Rod of Selective Spell: ignore up to four of your allies in your area of effect (very cheap, same cost as Extend Spell)
-Rod of Lingering: your instantaneous area of effect spells last for a full round (same cost as Empower)

Dazing Spell is by far the most useful, although it technically won't help you blast your enemies any faster.


may i reccomend that you burn a few feats on energy substitution? (if allowed)

The Exchange

Ice Titan wrote:
What level are you and how much cash do you have to spend?
hogarth wrote:
What level are you, and how much spare cash do you have?

I just hit level 6 and have 7800 to spend. After this weekend, I figure I'll have another 3200 a top of that. So...11000gp or so. I'm pretty good at saving my cash.

I'll look again at Dazing and Reach...your ideas are intriguing me.

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
may i reccomend that you burn a few feats on energy substitution? (if allowed)

Definitely. Though if I just start Flame Striking all day long, I might not need it. I dunno.

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts. I lean towards Maximize with a jealous eye on Dazing.

-Pain


TriOmegaZero wrote:

But the average roll of 10d6 is 35.

Divide by 2 equals 17.5.
Add to 35 is 52.5, just as demonstrated above.

It's not about averages. It's about rolling 15d6 and getting 10 6s and 5 1s. Or rolling 15d6 and getting 10 1s and 5 6s. With 15d6, the average, minimum and maximum are the same but there are weird anomalies I don't like. The math must be perfect!

EDIT: Like...
15d6 ⇒ (1, 5, 5, 2, 1, 2, 6, 5, 2, 1, 2, 6, 6, 2, 1) = 47
Using the first 10, the result was 30. Empowered, it's 45. But because of 15d6, you get 2 free damage out of nowhere! Hiss! Boo!

Lingering is good for if you want to control the battlefield tightly. Dropping a lingering fireball not only provides concealment at 5 and 20 feet, but also hurts anyone else walking into the fireball. Because of the concealment you could drop it on a bunch of people and force them to break ranks to scatter out of the fireball so they don't take the penalties. Just more obvious usage.

But yes, Dazing is probably the best. I just didn't remember it because it's so good I don't allow it in my home games. It's powerful, but IMO, too powerful. Dazing cone of cold, for instance, or dazing fireball. A bit too strong.


Ice Titan wrote:
But yes, Dazing is probably the best. I just didn't remember it because it's so good I don't allow it in my home games. It's powerful, but IMO, too powerful. Dazing cone of cold, for instance, or dazing fireball. A bit too strong.

The metamagic feat isn't "broken", IMO (Dazing Cone of Cold is a level 8 spell, after all), but the metamagic rod might be.


hogarth wrote:
Ice Titan wrote:
But yes, Dazing is probably the best. I just didn't remember it because it's so good I don't allow it in my home games. It's powerful, but IMO, too powerful. Dazing cone of cold, for instance, or dazing fireball. A bit too strong.
The metamagic feat isn't "broken", IMO (Dazing Cone of Cold is a level 8 spell, after all), but the metamagic rod might be.

I'm just trying to protect rogues from dazing phantasmal killers. And everyone from the mercy of random dice rolls versus a shotgun spray round of dazing magic missiles and quickened dazing magic missiles. One round of stun is usually the round you get killed in, and it just sounds unfun for me to have an entire encounter ended because of a slew of low rolls or to have the party TPK because of a slew of low rolls. I just dislike it. That's all.

And almost all of the metamagic rods are just plain powerful, some less so than others. At least Dazing is priced to a point where it'll only be wielded by those who truly saved for it. Greater persistent metamagic rod is only 24,000 and I think persistent is one of the most powerful metamagics in the game.


Ice Titan wrote:
I'm just trying to protect rogues from dazing phantasmal killers.

A Dazing Phantasmal Killer would do nothing; Dazing Spell only works if (a) the spell does damage, and (b) you fail the save, but Phantasmal Killer only does damage if you succeed on the save.

Ice Titan wrote:
And everyone from the mercy of random dice rolls versus a shotgun spray round of dazing magic missiles and quickened dazing magic missiles.

As opposed to protecting everyone from the mercy of random dice rolls versus Confusion or Stinking Cloud?

Ice Titan wrote:
One round of stun is usually the round you get killed in, and it just sounds unfun for me to have an entire encounter ended because of a slew of low rolls or to have the party TPK because of a slew of low rolls.

Daze isn't quite as bad as stun, but yes, it sucks to be dazed (or confused or nauseated, etc.).

Ice Titan wrote:
I just dislike it. That's all.

Fair enough. But it seems like there would be many (core) high level spells that you should dislike just as much.

Dark Archive

definitely go for the maximized rod and take empower as a feat, reason being is that maximized takes up a spell slot 4 higher and empower is what 2 or 3, I believe 2. No question when u think about it that way.

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