| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Greater Grapple
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round
Now first I interpret that as you can make 2 grapple checks per round using both your move and standard(2nd Move) to make 2 grapple checks.
so maintaining the grapple is the move leaving you with a free standard action you can do whatever you want with.
so can you throw a vital strike with your std action on your grappled foe ? allowing you to hit hard while he can't do anything much
as a side question can you satisfy the improved unarmed attack requirment by having a natural attack since all that feat does is make you armed when your not holding a weapon which is exactly what a natural attack does.
Greater Grapple
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each roundNow first I interpret that as you can make 2 grapple checks per round using both your move and standard(2nd Move) to make 2 grapple checks.
so maintaining the grapple is the move leaving you with a free standard action you can do whatever you want with.
so can you throw a vital strike with your std action on your grappled foe ? allowing you to hit hard while he can't do anything much
Yep, that seems to be the case. You'd have to make an actual attack though (at a -2 penalty… see the grappled condition on p.567), and not a second grapple check since that requires a standard action and Vital Strike can only be used when you use the attack action which is specifically using a standard action to make a melee or ranged attack. The "attack action" terminology is weird, but that's how it works.
Yep, that seems to be the case. You'd have to make an actual attack though (at a -2 penalty… see the grappled condition on p.567), and not a second grapple check since that requires a standard action and Vital Strike can only be used when you use the attack action which is specifically using a standard action to make a melee or ranged attack. The "attack action" terminology is weird, but that's how it works.Greater Grapple
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each roundNow first I interpret that as you can make 2 grapple checks per round using both your move and standard(2nd Move) to make 2 grapple checks.
so maintaining the grapple is the move leaving you with a free standard action you can do whatever you want with.
so can you throw a vital strike with your std action on your grappled foe ? allowing you to hit hard while he can't do anything much
thats still a bargain even at -2 to the attack especially since you foe is at -4AC
your hitting with a vital and there either not hitting you at all or hitting you with a minor attack.
thats still a bargain even at -2 to the attack especially since you foe is at -4AC
your hitting with a vital and there either not hitting you at all or hitting you with a minor attack.
I think it's a wash actually: -4 penalty to Dex nets a -2 AC.
I think it's a wash actually: -4 penalty to Dex nets a -2 AC.thats still a bargain even at -2 to the attack especially since you foe is at -4AC
your hitting with a vital and there either not hitting you at all or hitting you with a minor attack.
ah your right in which case your still laughing
and if you can get them pinned your laughing even harder since they lose all DEX bonus being flat footed and -4AC on top of that.
so maintaining the grapple is the move leaving you with a free standard action you can do whatever you want with.
so can you throw a vital strike with your std action on your grappled foe ? allowing you to hit hard while he can't do anything much
This is an interesting question. However, as I see it, you can only do whatever you want with the standard action, as long as it's without using both hands. This is because you have the 'grappled' condition.
This means you can only physically attack and damage the foe you are grappling with as PART of a grapple check. Note that this means you MUST make a second grapple check to damage your foe a second time and if you fail that second check, you lose your hold and are not grappling anymore.Also, note that the above applies to when you are the 'grappler'. If you are being grappled by your foe, the situation is different. Instead of reversing the grapple or trying to break free, you can take ANY action (including, as I read it, a full-round action) that only requires one hand against ANY creature within reach (this is, as I see it, an exception to the 'no hands' rule of the 'grappled' condition).
as a side question can you satisfy the improved unarmed attack requirment by having a natural attack since all that feat does is make you armed when your not holding a weapon which is exactly what a natural attack does.
Just having a natural attack does not satisfy the requirement of the 'improved grapple' feat (which itself is the requirement of the 'greater grapple' feat). It clearly says you need the 'improved unarmed strike' feat. Note that as a monk you get 'improved unarmed strike' for free at first level.
so maintaining the grapple is the move leaving you with a free standard action you can do whatever you want with.
so can you throw a vital strike with your std action on your grappled foe ? allowing you to hit hard while he can't do anything much
This is an interesting question. However, as I see it, you can only do whatever you want with the standard action, as long as it's without using both hands. This is because you have the 'grappled' condition.
This means you can only physically attack and damage the foe you are grappling with as PART of a grapple check. Note that this means you MUST make a second grapple check to damage your foe a second time and if you fail that second check, you lose your hold and are not grappling anymore.Also, note that the above applies to when you are the 'grappler'. If you are being grappled by your foe, the situation is different. Instead of reversing the grapple or trying to break free, you can take ANY action (including, as I read it, a full-round action) that only requires one hand against ANY creature within reach (this is, as I see it, an exception to the 'no hands' rule of the 'grappled' condition).
as a side question can you satisfy the improved unarmed attack requirment by having a natural attack since all that feat does is make you armed when your not holding a weapon which is exactly what a natural attack does.Just having a natural attack does not satisfy the requirement of the 'improved grapple' feat (which itself is the requirement of the 'greater grapple' feat). It clearly says you need the 'improved unarmed strike' feat. Note that as a monk you get 'improved unarmed strike' for free at first level.
in the specific case of alchemist
you can hit with your bite attack without using either handas for the IUA feat the reason i ask is becuase its a completely dead feat for any charcter with a natural attack.
thats still a bargain even at -2 to the attack especially since you foe is at -4AC
your hitting with a vital and there either not hitting you at all or hitting you with a minor attack.
The grappled foe can perform a full attack action with a one handed weapon with exactly the same modifiers.
The point of grappling, imo, is pinning the enemy ASAP, unless he is a wizard.
in the specific case of alchemist
you can hit with your bite attack without using either hand
Very good point. If you have a bite attack (like the 'feral mutagen' discovery gives you), you could use it (and your standard action) to make the 'attack action' required by the 'vital strike' feat.
as for the IUA feat the reason i ask is becuase its a completely dead feat for any charcter with a natural attack.
Well, in the case of an alchemist it's not quite the case, since the 'feral mutagen' is only active while the 'mutagen' is active. With IUA you are always considered armed while fighting unarmed.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Also, note that monks don't need to use ANY hands to attack.
"A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full."
All gravy if he has Greater Grapple and wants to make a grapple check as a move and a vital striking whammo with the standard. Heck, he could even drop a Stunning Fist on there if he wanted.
That's right.
However, all this about 'improved unarmed strike' and natural attacks made me think of a different problem. IUS is the first of a feat tree/chain that contains feats that give the character special effects with their unarmed attacks. For example everything after 'scorpion style'. All these feats explicitly call for 'unarmed attacks'. My question is: would natural attacks with, say, claws also count as 'unarmed attacks' and would thus be able to apply the special effects of the feats?
Any thoughts?
The only thing I see is that the 'attack' description on page 182 of the Core Rulebook has two separate entries for 'unarmed attacks' and 'natural attacks'. This would imply that they are not the same and the special effects of the feats would not be applicable to claw attacks.
Isn't that pretty good for monks? 8d10 greater vital strike...
You'd have to multiclass since monks can only have BAB +15 and the feat requires +16. I would suggest Fighter so you can get it as a bonus feat without losing any more monk abilities unless you don't mind. You'd also only end up with 8d8 Greater Vital Strike since you won't be level 20.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
That's right.
However, all this about 'improved unarmed strike' and natural attacks made me think of a different problem. IUS is the first of a feat tree/chain that contains feats that give the character special effects with their unarmed attacks. For example everything after 'scorpion style'. All these feats explicitly call for 'unarmed attacks'. My question is: would natural attacks with, say, claws also count as 'unarmed attacks' and would thus be able to apply the special effects of the feats?
Any thoughts?
The only thing I see is that the 'attack' description on page 182 of the Core Rulebook has two separate entries for 'unarmed attacks' and 'natural attacks'. This would imply that they are not the same and the special effects of the feats would not be applicable to claw attacks.
It's true.
So no fair giving those giant scorpions in your campaign the Scorpion Strike feat!
Or dragons... :)
I suppose an intelligent monster could make an "unarmed strike" attack, inflicting damage appropriate to its size; it just couldn't use it in conjunction with its natural weapons, even if it's a slam attack.
I suppose an intelligent monster could make an "unarmed strike" attack, inflicting damage appropriate to its size; it just couldn't use it in conjunction with its natural weapons, even if it's a slam attack.
Hmm, this seems to be the central question. Can a character/creature with 'natural attacks' "disarm" them and make 'unarmed attacks' (even though they would count as armed, because of IUS) with the same appendages.
And where does one draw the line, if this were possible? Would appendages that have 'slam' 'natural attacks' be acceptable, while 'claws' wouldn't (unless you could retract them? maybe ;) )?
I'd draw the line at the taking of the feat. If a dragon had monk levels or an intelligent scorpion spent a feat on IUA then I'd say all bets are off.
My players will soon meet the ancestors of the originators of scorpion style, medusa's wrath and so on.
:)
I'd really like to know want the official stance on this is.
Personally, I don't think it's possible, since if your hands are weapons, you can't just mentally "shut them off" (even retracted claws come out reflexively).
The clearest solution would obviously be to clarify if these specific feats ('scorpion style', 'gorgon's fist', 'medusa's wrath' and 'stunning fist') work with 'natural attacks' done with 'natural weapons' "on" the hands (such as 'slam' or 'claw').
Ok, Alch, imagine I'm a creature with basically human hands which happen to have claws on the fingertips, say a vrock demon. Now imagine that instead of clawing you I decide to ball my hand up into a fist and punch you in the jaw. That would be fine, and it would let me do unarmed strike damage. That would be nonlethal, not threaten, etc unless I took Improved Unarmed Strike. If I did take IUS then I'd qualify for additional feats like Improved and Greater Grapple...viola, Vrock Lesnar!
Ok, Alch, imagine I'm a creature with basically human hands which happen to have claws on the fingertips, say a vrock demon. Now imagine that instead of clawing you I decide to ball my hand up into a fist and punch you in the jaw. That would be fine, and it would let me do unarmed strike damage. That would be nonlethal, not threaten, etc unless I took Improved Unarmed Strike. If I did take IUS then I'd qualify for additional feats like Improved and Greater Grapple...viola, Vrock Lesnar!
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Ok, Alch, imagine I'm a creature with basically human hands which happen to have claws on the fingertips, say a vrock demon. Now imagine that instead of clawing you I decide to ball my hand up into a fist and punch you in the jaw. That would be fine, and it would let me do unarmed strike damage. That would be nonlethal, not threaten, etc unless I took Improved Unarmed Strike. If I did take IUS then I'd qualify for additional feats like Improved and Greater Grapple...viola, Vrock Lesnar!
I don't know... More like your own claws will puncture your hand, that is if they are small enough for you to even make a fist.
Also, what about 'slam' attacks?
|
Ok, Alch, imagine I'm a creature with basically human hands which happen to have claws on the fingertips, say a vrock demon. Now imagine that instead of clawing you I decide to ball my hand up into a fist and punch you in the jaw. That would be fine, and it would let me do unarmed strike damage. That would be nonlethal, not threaten, etc unless I took Improved Unarmed Strike. If I did take IUS then I'd qualify for additional feats like Improved and Greater Grapple...viola, Vrock Lesnar!I don't know... More like your own claws will puncture your hand, that is if they are small enough for you to even make a fist.
Also, what about 'slam' attacks?
Improved Unarmed Attack isn't just punching. It's punching, kicking, knees, elbows, headbutts. Every creature has something they can use IUA for. As written, an unarmed attack is not the same thing as a natural attack, so I'd rule they don't work except with unarmed attacks.
Ok, Alch, imagine I'm a creature with basically human hands which happen to have claws on the fingertips, say a vrock demon. Now imagine that instead of clawing you I decide to ball my hand up into a fist and punch you in the jaw. That would be fine, and it would let me do unarmed strike damage. That would be nonlethal, not threaten, etc unless I took Improved Unarmed Strike. If I did take IUS then I'd qualify for additional feats like Improved and Greater Grapple...viola, Vrock Lesnar!I don't know... More like your own claws will puncture your hand, that is if they are small enough for you to even make a fist.
Also, what about 'slam' attacks?
Each natural attack is different and has nothing to do with IUS. IUS is not even affected by improved natural attack. You can make an unarmed strike but it will always be nonlethal without the feat unless you have something like gauntlets or brass knuckles.
In short IUS is it's own separate thing, and represents martial arts training to a large extent.
Improved Unarmed Attack isn't just punching. It's punching, kicking, knees, elbows, headbutts. Every creature has something they can use IUA for. As written, an unarmed attack is not the same thing as a natural attack, so I'd rule they don't work except with unarmed attacks.
Each natural attack is different and has nothing to do with IUS. IUS is not even affected by improved natural attack. You can make an unarmed strike but it will always be nonlethal without the feat unless you have something like gauntlets or brass knuckles.
In short IUS is it's own separate thing, and represents martial arts training to a large extent.
That makes sense. Every creature can make 'unarmed attacks' with the basic damage depending on their size category. Creatures with 'claw' and 'slam' attacks just use other, non-armed body parts.
And the only requirement for IUS is being able to take feats at all. Which includes everyone except oozes, vermin, most constructs, many undead and some plants.
Wow, such persistence...if you insist on being difficult Vrock Lesnar can karate chop you too or maybe just pimp slap you. If you think he's bad just wait until a hezrou with Vital Strike and Greater Grapple gets a hold of you. If we were dealing with devils instead of demons the Monk class would be an option, and a barbed devil monk could be a real beast.