Well, what ELSE are we going to discuss around here then?
LOL!! Too true!
But to the OP's point, yeah, I agree. When you see posts saying the (insert rule here) is too powerful and the next saying the same rule is totally nerfed you have to think they got it right.
Anyway, my friends and I have been playing Pathfinder for a couple years and we like it just fine. I think that's good enough for us.
RAW vs RAI isn't questioning the mechanics per say...
It vexes me, too! IMHO, Pathfinder is the best version of "the world's oldest fantasy RPG"! Some people, it seems, are just never happy!
|
Well, what ELSE are we going to discuss around here then?LOL!! Too true!
But to the OP's point, yeah, I agree. When you see posts saying the (insert rule here) is too powerful and the next saying the same rule is totally nerfed you have to think they got it right.
Anyway, my friends and I have been playing Pathfinder for a couple years and we like it just fine. I think that's good enough for us.
+1.
|
|
Every day, it seems, there is a new thread questioning the mechanics of the game. And what's worse? It seems that the authors of these threads want Paizo to fix what THEY perceive as broken. Every time I read one of these threads, it first makes me mad, but it gives me even more faith in the products themselves. This happen to anyone else?
Because sometimes they have a point. *AHEM*Summoner Useless*AHEM*.
The posts I'm not too thrilled about are the ones that directly address a developer or something and says something like, "Hey, you missed a spot. You need to fix this ASAP." Well, it's not quite as condescending as that, but it's the impression I get whenever I read a title like that.
Self-aggrandizing, calls for action, and berating those who disagree are all silly ways to spend your time.
However, everyone plays the game differently, and I can say that certain specific rulings in the game drive me nuts too. GMs need a place to discuss alternatives.
I can't really support the case that the RAW is perfect and everyone should abide by it. People just need to be realistic about what merits a change in the RAW, what should be a house rule, and what is a simple matter of preference.
But to the OP's point, yeah, I agree. When you see posts saying the (insert rule here) is too powerful and the next saying the same rule is totally nerfed you have to think they got it right.
It's baffling to see this reasoning come up as often as it does, as illogical as it is.
I frequently discuss things that I don't like on the forums (and probably come off as a pretty negative guy), but that's largely because the Paizo staff actually listens to these complaints and addresses them in their material. I have seen a lot of specific complaints that spanned many threads being solved in new rulebooks, especially the APG. Of course we can't all get exactly what we want, but it's nice to see the developers take hints from well-constructed arguments.
If there's one thing I'd like to see changed, it would probably be more rule changes and not just wording issues in the erratas, but I can see how that could cause troubles.
|
they happen because sometimes, rule 0 doesn't cut it. Sometimes the developer did miss something, sometimes it's cause the developer has said something that really scares the consumer, and sometimes it's because something is in fact not working properly.
But the final, bottom-line reason is because people care about this game; and that is all Paizo needs to sell more products.
The posts I'm not too thrilled about are the ones that directly address a developer or something and says something like, "Hey, you missed a spot. You need to fix this ASAP." Well, it's not quite as condescending as that, but it's the impression I get whenever I read a title like that.
Quoted for truth. :)
Yeah, it's happened. Like the thread about the Human Sorcs that popped up recently. Some people don't like it, others see it as bringing the sorcerer closer to it's bookish cousin.
Well, now that We sorcerers have finally eclipsed those glorified librarians in terms of power, naturally there will be some who will question Our rule.
You there! Man-servant! More grapes and more wine! *Ghost sound of a whip cracking*
Yeah, it's happened. Like the thread about the Human Sorcs that popped up recently. Some people don't like it, others see it as bringing the sorcerer closer to it's bookish cousin.Well, now that We sorcerers have finally eclipsed those glorified librarians in terms of power, naturally there will be some who will question Our rule.
You there! Man-servant! More grapes and more wine! *Ghost sound of a whip cracking*
Yes... Your... Majesty...
|
I think it stems from the community. Plenty of overly critical people who don't play the game much but try to emulate it with math on these boards. So they complain about all the little details instead of just enjoying it. Sometimes they raise good points, other times they're just whining about unimportant garbage.
I don't think the game is absolutely perfect but I enjoy it and all it's little quirks. It's very fun game after all. :)
Every day, it seems, there is a new thread questioning the mechanics of the game. And what's worse? It seems that the authors of these threads want Paizo to fix what THEY perceive as broken. Every time I read one of these threads, it first makes me mad, but it gives me even more faith in the products themselves. This happen to anyone else?
You can't please everyone, and there are a lot of bodies to please, but the devs are doing a great job though. It is just that not everyone plays the same so what is great for group A sucks for group B.
Honestly, every gripe thread I read is preparing me for the possibility of a player coming to my game with a similar complaint. This threads give me a knowledge base to draw from when I need to answer such a question.
This is key. There have been things I saw here that came up later in my games. It allowed me to have an answer ahead of time.
it gives me even more faith in the products themselves.
That sounds like quite the irrational reaction.
These threads are at least a good help for DMs, as has been said, to know what to answer to their players, and also to know what to change or not change to their game and the reasons for it. Because after all, the fact that the game has faults does not make it better even if it's unavoidable.
Remember also that Smite evil has been changed after a lot of seemingly useless whining.
While I don't think it's right to expect Paizo staff to "fix" everything that random people perceive as "broken", I think it's kind of good to get a different perspective. Sometimes it can even gain you backing on for if you support or hand wave any particular rule or interpret it a specific way (Not saying you should use boards as evidence, but you can try to follow their logic). In the end its always up to the GM to give the final interpretation.
I don't really see Pathfinder as needing a lot of fixing at all, just for certain games to be played a certain way. From what I've seen, the rules/balance always has to be fixed by the GM based on how the party is.
In other words, folks should feel free to discuss their likes, dislikes, and expectations; it's their right as consumers.
Agreed, but I do object to the manner and tone some posters choose when making those discussions.
I agree wholeheartedly with Lilith. There is a huge difference between a debate/discussion and an argument. If you can come on these boards and discuss what issues you see with a particular rule/class/etc...I think you'll find the tone of these boards to be extremely friendly and helpful.
Personally, I am more than happy to talk to someone about a rules interpretation. Sometimes its something that might just come down to DM's Call for their home-game. Other times, it might be a particular vague wording in a rule. Either way, I am more than happy admitting that I am wrong on something if that is the case. It should be mentioned (since some folks seem to think being wrong means something else than it does), even if someone is "wrong" on a ruling, they are not doing it wrong if they choose to rule otherwise in their home-game.
All in all, this game is for your enjoyment (DM/GM and the players). If there is a rule getting in the way, streamline it, make a ruling and move on. Don't break the fun or pace of the game in order to argue over a rule. After the game, feel free to research the rule and find an official ruling, see if it fits with what you think the rule is intended to mean (or RAW if that is your preference). Then you can implement the rule properly next time. Just my 2 cp.
|
|
When I spend my hard-earned wages on a product, I reserve the right to complain about it, and to make unreasonable demands about future products. I don't always feel strongly enough to do it, but I still reserve the right.
Not because I feel entitled to anything, nor because I expect the developers to take any particular interest in my opinions. The developers should make the game they want to make, regardless of my opinions.
It just happens that I occasionally have very specific reasons for liking or disliking certain products. And on the off chance anyone conducting market research is listening, I don't want those reasons to be mysterious.
Edit: In other words, folks should feel free to discuss their likes, dislikes, and expectations; it's their right as consumers.
This is why the "it's just a game" point never worked for me. Just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it can't be improved, or it's good the way it is.
All these "complaints" are what got the PF fighter into a damage dealing machine, as opposed a horrible class that people avoided playing after a few years in 3.5.
The posts I'm not too thrilled about are the ones that directly address a developer or something and says something like, "Hey, you missed a spot. You need to fix this ASAP." Well, it's not quite as condescending as that, but it's the impression I get whenever I read a title like that.Quoted for truth. :)
Except where Swivl said "it's not quite as condescending as that", often it is worse.
If you want to change or add to a game sure why not. Anyone of us can change a rule or some power of sort afterall its just a game. If you want to post on rules for suggestions sure why not or new ideas to change your game thats great. But I do think the general engine this system has is a good one & that is why it has survived so long. I am a very open minded gamer and that is why my games are not bogged down. I have played 4th edition & did not care for it(please do not respond my opinion of 4th ed thanks) The system played out like a little bit of tabletop meets warcraft & a card game. It does have its good stuff, all players can cast & each character class is somewhat equal to each other (again somewhat) Im getting away from the subject I do think Pathfinder has turned out great & spellcasters have gained some ground. Again feel free to make your own changes when needed, Nuff Said!
|
All these "complaints" are what got the PF fighter into a damage dealing machine, as opposed a horrible class that people avoided playing after a few years in 3.5.
This example just goes to show the wide range of opinions in our community, and why one person’s feedback can appear like an unnecessary complaint or even downright foolishness to other people.
I, and most of the people I game with did not see the 3.5 fighter as a horrible class that we avoided playing after a few years. Conversely, every couple of months at least there will be a thread on the boards complaining that the PF fighter is still underpowered / horrible / unplayable after level x or whatever.
It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give feedback – just try to be respectful of other people’s opinions as you do so, and be aware that not everyone plays the game in the same way. Don't expect that becuase you don't like something, everyone else will feel the same way, and Paizo should be expected to change things to accomodate you.
To some extent, and I say this lovingly toward all my fellow gamers knowing well that I am just as guilty of this, this is the nature of gamers on the Internet. Many of them will nitpick and complain until the end of time, and regard for personal playstyle differences will largely go overlooked again and again.
Does that, by itself, make it right? Not necessarily.
But look: there are generally, more or less, in vast oversimplification, two purposes of threads for "fixes" proposed:
1) The first, as many have noted, is to genuinely look at a vague rule or a seemingly unbalanced rule and try to get clarification on it, and see how to make sure the vagary or the unbalancedness of said rule does not create conflict in one's own home games. There is value in this. Also, it's fun to tinker.
2) The second is to be angry and to be "right" about a perceived unfairness in the rules, whether it's really there or not. I have learned... the hard way, sadly... it's just best to let these threads go. I have seen people complain about a rule, have other posters show up to offer perfectly reasonable solutions that work within the existing game mechanics, only to have those posters shot down by the OP for not simply agreeing with them that the rule is WRONG and everyone should just give up and play checkers (or whatever. I'm exaggerating for humor's sake). The hard but essential part here is just ignoring it. The more the bullheadedly argumentative and the complainers for pure complaining sake are ignored, the more they realize they don't have an audience and will go off elsewhere. It's one thing to seek sympathy; it's another to seek "rightness" in an area where there are innumerable circumstances and interpretation make "rightness" impossible to achieve.
You want to make the boards a better place? Start with yourself and contribute constructively (please do not misconstrue that I am suggesting that the OP is not being constructive, as I think it's worth getting a conversation started), and don't feed the trolls.
*works on swallowing her own pill of advice*
I know. Sheesh. Just house rule it. I swear, the d20 generation wants everything spoon-fed to them. Just because there's rules for everything, including removing the kitchen sink, doesn't mean you can't change them up to your liking...
|
|
I know. Sheesh. Just house rule it. I swear, the d20 generation wants everything spoon-fed to them. Just because there's rules for everything, including removing the kitchen sink, doesn't mean you can't change them up to your liking...
Of course. But that is no reason to let devs off the hook for badly written/ambigious or just plain broken rules.
One, b~&!%ing and moaning about the rules has been going on for decades. It's better than not b~&!%ing and moaning about the rules. It means people care about the game.
Two, no system is perfect and even the b~&!%ing and moaning is feedback.
Very good point. Instead of seeing it as moaning, see it as people who care about the game.
|
|
I think it stems from the community. Plenty of overly critical people who don't play the game much but try to emulate it with math on these boards. So they complain about all the little details instead of just enjoying it. Sometimes they raise good points, other times they're just whining about unimportant garbage.
I don't think the game is absolutely perfect but I enjoy it and all it's little quirks. It's very fun game after all. :)
+1
I know. Sheesh. Just house rule it. I swear, the d20 generation wants everything spoon-fed to them. Just because there's rules for everything, including removing the kitchen sink, doesn't mean you can't change them up to your liking...
I just wanted to add, "Get off my lawn."
I know. Sheesh. Just house rule it. I swear, the d20 generation wants everything spoon-fed to them. Just because there's rules for everything, including removing the kitchen sink, doesn't mean you can't change them up to your liking...Of course. But that is no reason to let devs off the hook for badly written/ambigious or just plain broken rules.
That's true. A lot of stuff can still get better, but the threads that are of the opinion that broken things can be improved are few and far between. I've stopped contributing simply because my contributions are ignored, mostly because I'm not on the development team for Pathfinder, and because it won't stop the s*$+storm- sorry, "debate" that inevitably follows. I swear, it makes me want to put my party up against a runehound sometimes.
Hmm,
I may be wrong, but if I read the OP's point, and those who are cheering him on correctly, the point of this thread is...
1) If you don't love PF, don't post on the threads.
2) Paizo is perfect, and all those who disagree are heathen infidels.
3) All rules are perfect as written, despite an errata to the contrary.
4) If you don't pose hosana's to James and Jacob and everyone else at Paizo, you are the devil incarnate.
Now, I don't agree with any of those points.
A) Paizo staff has repeatedly posted that they want feedback, positive, negative, or other.
B) Standing up and shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with you may be the way our political system works now days, but it doesn't make it ethical or valid.
C) If threads that have complaints/questions/negative feedback totally rack you off, and I hate to say this because it's become a cliche, but don't freaking read any threads on here!
There are threads I avoid like the plague because they always tick me off. By the same token, there are posters on here I ignore, because responding to them is exactly the same as poking hornet nests. Nothing good ever comes of it, and the hornets just get to have fun stinging you without ever actually doing anything useful in return.
No offense, but if you don't like exchange of ideas, or even exchange of opinions that may or may not degrade into shouting matches... then unplug your internet connection, go read a book, go to the mall and chat with people, call someone on the phone, have fun somewhere else.
Pathfinder came about because people made these very same types of posts and complaints about 3.5.
Yes... Your... Majesty...Yeah, it's happened. Like the thread about the Human Sorcs that popped up recently. Some people don't like it, others see it as bringing the sorcerer closer to it's bookish cousin.Well, now that We sorcerers have finally eclipsed those glorified librarians in terms of power, naturally there will be some who will question Our rule.
You there! Man-servant! More grapes and more wine! *Ghost sound of a whip cracking*
Well I for one, welcomes our new sorcerer Overlords.
|
|
Setting aside for a fact that people are human and that mistakes happen in any endeavour pursued by mankind... Setting that aside for a minute, what if every time anybody ever said something ambiguous they were put "on the hook" for it?
What if somebody came to you and said, "Write me a 300,000 word step-by-step instructional manual on process [X]. I'll pay you $50 for it. If I ever have any questions about it for the rest of my life, I'll come to your website. Depending on my mood that day, I might berate you, I might belittle you, I might talk down to you, or I might be totally cool to you. I will expect you to revise the source document according to your responses to my questions/concerns." What would you say to that? Do you think that $50 entitles someone to that level of involvement in your life or your creative process? Let me just say, I don't. I find it amazing that Paizo apparently does.
All of that is to say, if I ran Paizo, I'd probably run it like Steve Jobs runs Apple. I'd give my very best effort on my product (which, by the way, Paizo already does), advertise it as truthfully and transparently as possible, and then tell anyone who buys it and doesn't like how it's designed to go pound sand.
I'm really glad Lisa runs Paizo instead of me, and that she runs it the way she runs it. What these recent threads have taught me is how not to behave in public, and that's about all.
The point is that a lot of folks are unhappy with the tone of the dissent. Part of being a company that makes a product that a lot of people love is that you get free cheerleaders. These cheerleaders are very apt to defend said company if poorly thought-out, harshly worded criticisms of the company and the product appear anywhere in the public domain, like the internet for example. Just as someone (mdt in this case, but it could be anyone, I'm not picking on him) can say "If threads that have complaints/questions/negative feedback totally rack you off, [...] don't freaking read any threads on here!", I can easily say "If posters aren't prepared to justify their conclusions and opinions with some sort of tact and logic, they shouldn't put them somewhere that I can read them! And if they do, I'm going to call them out on their illogic and (more importantly) their boorishness!"
|
|
I may be wrong
Well, you got one thing right.
A) Paizo staff has repeatedly posted that they want feedback, positive, negative, or other.
B) Standing up and shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with you may be the way our political system works now days, but it doesn't make it ethical or valid.
More seriously, you got a few other things right too.
BUT, there is a big difference between negative / constructive feedback along the lines of ‘I don’t think this works’, ‘I don’t know what this means’, ‘this doesn’t work for me’ or ‘I would have preferred this was done differently’ to ‘WTF??? Seriously??? This sucks!!!’ or ‘I hate this you need to change it,’ or ‘What the hell were they thinking?’ or ‘this is totally broken why haven’t you fixed it?’ or ‘why didn’t you listen to ME ME ME during the playtest????’.
If you don't pose hosana's to James and Jacob and everyone else at Paizo, you are the devil incarnate.
PS, It’s James Jacobs not James and Jacob. Or maybe I just missed the humour?
I think that we should all try to be kinder with our nitpicking. I know I will.
I agree it is one thing to question the rules and discuss what you like or dislike about the rules. It is a completely different thing to disrespect the designers and other posters on the boards because you disagree with them.
I'll just ask posters one more time...
Feedback, discussion and critiques are good for Paizo, Pathfinder players and everyone. We all benefit when a rules issue is brought to light and discussed.
One more time though...please moderate your tone, discuss and be constructive. The big issue isn't that questions and problems are being brought up....its that some folks are doing so in an inflammatory/tactless fashion.
Saying things in a blunt, to the point manner is fine....thats no excuse to act the way some folks have on these boards recently....much as Mothman mentioned above.