Has anyone had a go at converting the beguiler? Would it be appropriate to just treat it as an 'alternate sorcerer' and let them take a bloodline?
I would not allow them a bloodline. They are not sorcerers and have their own things, they should not be granted class abilities of another class.
Aren't beguilers basically sorcerers that restrict themselves to a limited spell list and get extra stuff to compensate for this?
if they get the extra stuff then no they are not sorcerers. If they give up all the "other stuff" then they are not beguilers
One or the other they should not get the stuff from 2 classes
If you want to be helpful, why don't you suggest what could be done to bring beguiler up to par for a Pathfinder class?
from what I recall it was fine as is. The BAB/HD matched, it got spells and abilities and 6 skills per level. I see nothing that needs upgraded. It is on par with the core pathfinder classes, no need to power it up.
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1) Beguiler as a Sorcerer Bloodline
Not really going to work. Sorcerer bloodlines represent something in your family tree (usually a fantastical creature and more rarely a fantastical force such as destiny/divinity/arcana) putting a particular flavor of magic in your blood. I don't really see where you can make beguiler work as something in one's ancestry that focuses them almost entirely on illusion/enchantment.
Beguilers were part of a flavor of caster classes in 3.5 that had spontaneous casting because that system of casting focused them on a very narrow repertoire of spells as part of a trade-off for other concessions (getting armor, having class abilities that made these spells much nastier/stronger/tough to resist). Prepared spells allowed for a much larger repertoire; it would have been inappropriate in terms of the system without going through all sorts of hoops to explain the limited repertoire. Warmage is another good example. Both were separate classes because they had abilities/did things that you could not easily replicate with Wizard/Sorcerer.
2) Beguiler as a PF Base Class
I do agree the Beguiler has a lot of toys considering how some of the 3.5 base classes were. But I do think it needs some more of the flexibility and customization most PFS classes allow. Perhaps some sort of set of selected abilities (in line with hexes or rogue talents) that add assorted tricks to the Beguiler's abilities outside his spells.
Probably my only serious issue with this class was that it generally did it's fighting by misdirection and sowing confusion; it really worked best when playing support for the rest of the party or when multi-classed into something else like Rogue. At higher levels you got some illusions that could mimic more damaging spells (Shadow Conjuration/Evocation), but those were only effective to a point.
I proposed my own version of the Beguiler a while ago. My own Pathfinderized Beguiler Thread
My version increased BAB and HD, as I see more the Beguiler as a social rogue with spell casting abilities. And I also include Magic Missile into Beguiler's spell list.
As you will see Magic Missile and Power Word Kill didn't get much love. And this is fair if you view the Beguiler more as charming spellcaster with some roguish talent.
The thread also had a discussion on an attempt to convert the Beguiler to a Sorcerer's Bloodline.
Check out the Sandman archetype for the Bard.
my version is pretty straightforward, give them cantrips, and either the illusion or enchantment school power to avoid the 15 minute workday. So long as you are willing to convert the non-core spells in their list this works quite well.
from what I recall it was fine as is. The BAB/HD matched, it got spells and abilities and 6 skills per level. I see nothing that needs upgraded. It is on par with the core pathfinder classes, no need to power it up.
In the one game my group had a Beguiler, the class turned out to be complete broken (both ways). It either completely overpowered the encounters (leaving the other PCs to mop up with coup-de-grace's), or it did absolutely nothing (if the enemies were immune to mindaffecting or had very high Will saves). And this was a problem all the way through the campaign, even at low levels.
So, I would much rather see a re-imagining of the Beguiler into a sorcerer bloodline, because I can't really see any saving points for the class as it was. It is too good at what it does, and too poor at anything else.
from what I recall it was fine as is. The BAB/HD matched, it got spells and abilities and 6 skills per level. I see nothing that needs upgraded. It is on par with the core pathfinder classes, no need to power it up.In the one game my group had a Beguiler, the class turned out to be complete broken (both ways). It either completely overpowered the encounters (leaving the other PCs to mop up with coup-de-grace's), or it did absolutely nothing (if the enemies were immune to mindaffecting or had very high Will saves). And this was a problem all the way through the campaign, even at low levels.
So, I would much rather see a re-imagining of the Beguiler into a sorcerer bloodline, because I can't really see any saving points for the class as it was. It is too good at what it does, and too poor at anything else.
Well that is simply a problem with any class or character that focuses in mind effecting save or lose spells. Though the beguiler does have a few pretty good buffs (haste is useful at any level no?) so it doesn't have to be SOL if theres a mind effecting issue.
There are a couple other things I did with my beguiler that helped, using ecclectic learning from the PHBII to pick up non-enchantment/illusion spells (of a lower level) to add in a little battlefield control or other spells that can help when mind-effecting cant, and there was a group of items in the magic item compendium that let you convert spell slots into a specific spell (one was magic missile, another was fireball, and one was teleport) which really helped the class with flexibility.
I did one a while back. May have some errors that are easily fixed. Its at http://www.mediafire.com/ElghinnLightbringer
Aren't beguilers basically sorcerers that restrict themselves to a limited spell list and get extra stuff to compensate for this?
Beguilers were more like bards that swapped bardic performance and knowledge for more spellcasting oomph. Basically an alternate bard for people who didn't like the performance flavor. As Ellington notes, in Pathfinder, the best close version in terms of flavor/theme would be the Sandman.
But I also agree with seekerofshadowlight, you could pretty much use the class as written. It doesn't need much conversion--just make sure you update the skills to PF skills and check for spell changes and you're good to go.
Aren't beguilers basically sorcerers that restrict themselves to a limited spell list and get extra stuff to compensate for this?Beguilers were more like bards that swapped bardic performance and knowledge for more spellcasting oomph. Basically an alternate bard for people who didn't like the performance flavor. As Ellington notes, in Pathfinder, the best close version in terms of flavor/theme would be the Sandman.
But I also agree with seekerofshadowlight, you could pretty much use the class as written. It doesn't need much conversion--just make sure you update the skills to PF skills and check for spell changes and you're good to go.
I think they are more an alternate rogue then an alternate bard. They are one of a handfull of classes that get trapfinding, and an excellent spell list. That along with what is essentially spell sneak attack to me says rogue way more then bard.
I think they are more an alternate rogue then an alternate bard. They are one of a handfull of classes that get trapfinding, and an excellent spell list. That along with what is essentially spell sneak attack to me says rogue way more then bard.Aren't beguilers basically sorcerers that restrict themselves to a limited spell list and get extra stuff to compensate for this?Beguilers were more like bards that swapped bardic performance and knowledge for more spellcasting oomph. Basically an alternate bard for people who didn't like the performance flavor. As Ellington notes, in Pathfinder, the best close version in terms of flavor/theme would be the Sandman.
But I also agree with seekerofshadowlight, you could pretty much use the class as written. It doesn't need much conversion--just make sure you update the skills to PF skills and check for spell changes and you're good to go.
The Beguiler was one of the three half-rogue classes Wizards introduced in Complete Adventurer. There was the rogue/monk Ninja, the rogue/ranger Scout, and the Beguiler was a rogue/sorcerer.
Beguiler was in Player's Handbook II, not in Complete Adventurer. The 3rd class from that book was the Spellthief.
I think they are more an alternate rogue then an alternate bard. They are one of a handfull of classes that get trapfinding, and an excellent spell list. That along with what is essentially spell sneak attack to me says rogue way more then bard.Aren't beguilers basically sorcerers that restrict themselves to a limited spell list and get extra stuff to compensate for this?Beguilers were more like bards that swapped bardic performance and knowledge for more spellcasting oomph. Basically an alternate bard for people who didn't like the performance flavor. As Ellington notes, in Pathfinder, the best close version in terms of flavor/theme would be the Sandman.
But I also agree with seekerofshadowlight, you could pretty much use the class as written. It doesn't need much conversion--just make sure you update the skills to PF skills and check for spell changes and you're good to go.
I can also see it that way because of the trapfinding. I tend to think of it as a bard because I know people who didn't like the performance flavor for bard and used it as a full-on replacement in available base classes. And because of the heavy focus on buffs and enchantments, which is generally a bard's duty. If it's a bard with trapfinding or a rogue with spells... eh, six and one half dozen the other. :)
from what I recall it was fine as is. The BAB/HD matched, it got spells and abilities and 6 skills per level. I see nothing that needs upgraded. It is on par with the core pathfinder classes, no need to power it up.
Other than most of its class abilities required absurd things like surprise or feinting in combat, yeah.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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from what I recall it was fine as is. The BAB/HD matched, it got spells and abilities and 6 skills per level. I see nothing that needs upgraded. It is on par with the core pathfinder classes, no need to power it up.Other than most of its class abilities required absurd things like surprise or feinting in combat, yeah.
Or having concealment or being invisible or blinking, all of which are pretty easy to do with the Beguiler's spell list and class skills.
Or attacking foes that are blinded, stunned, or made flat-footed, all of which are pretty easy to do with the Beguiler's spell list and class skills.
In fact, one of the main low-level beguiler spells was a spell that was BOTH a save vs. blind effect AND made you invisible for a short duration. Blinding color strike or something like that.
I played a beguiler all the way through the Savage Tide AP and found I rarely had difficulty getting the surprise casting bonuses. I used the feint/cast every once in a while but not very often.
I did run into trouble at times with the beguiler's focus on mind-affecting, especially at lower levels, because there are stretches of the campaign where you fight a lot of immune creatures. Later on in the campaign, when you're on the outer planes, I was crimped in a different way, because spells requiring the ethereal plane now didn't work any more. Swift etherealness certainly came in handy on a number of occasions.
I ended up taking a rather circuitous multiclassing route into 1 level of Mindbender (to get telepathy, so I could still use language-dependent spells while using Zone of Silence for stealth) and into Rainbow Servant, having met with the couatl of the Isle of Dread, in order to pick up the Good domain. That then allowed me to go into Sacred Exorcist, which came in handy against the heavy evil outsider tilt of that AP, plus giving me some handy options for situations where direct damage was required (like Holy Smite and Blade Barrier) or some other nice spells that filled niches outside the beguiler's list (really all of the Good domain spells came in pretty handy, from Prot-Evil to Holy Word, Holy Aura, and SM9).
UMD + a nice staff or two is also essential for a beguiler to have the versatility needed.
I had a lot of fun with the character, and he had an absolutely EPIC death scene when Demogorgon Spell Stowawayed into my time stop... oops. :)
Or having concealment or being invisible or blinking, all of which are pretty easy to do with the Beguiler's spell list and class skills.
Or attacking foes that are blinded, stunned, or made flat-footed, all of which are pretty easy to do with the Beguiler's spell list and class skills.
In fact, one of the main low-level beguiler spells was a spell that was BOTH a save vs. blind effect AND made you invisible for a short duration. Blinding color strike or something like that.
I played a beguiler all the way through the Savage Tide AP and found I rarely had difficulty getting the surprise casting bonuses. I used the feint/cast every once in a while but not very often.
I did run into trouble at times with the beguiler's focus on mind-affecting, especially at lower levels, because there are stretches of the campaign where you fight a lot of immune creatures. Later on in the campaign, when you're on the outer planes, I was crimped in a different way, because spells requiring the ethereal plane now didn't work any more. Swift etherealness certainly came in handy on a number of occasions.
I ended up taking a rather circuitous multiclassing route into 1 level of Mindbender (to get telepathy, so I could still use language-dependent spells while using Zone of Silence for stealth) and into Rainbow Servant, having met with the couatl of the Isle of Dread, in order to pick up the Good domain. That then allowed me to go into Sacred Exorcist, which came in handy against the heavy evil outsider tilt of that AP, plus giving me some handy options for situations where direct damage was required (like Holy Smite and Blade Barrier) or some other nice spells that filled niches outside the beguiler's list (really all of the Good domain spells came in pretty handy, from Prot-Evil to Holy Word, Holy Aura, and SM9).
UMD + a nice staff or two is also essential for a beguiler to have the versatility needed.
I had a lot of fun with the character, and he had an absolutely EPIC death scene when Demogorgon Spell Stowawayed into my time stop... oops. :)
In pathfinder there are also a few new feats in the APG that would help which allow spell slots to be turned into specific effects (arcane blast comes to mind). They arent as good as the spells the simulate, but at least the beguiler wont be useless by comparison. Add to that the MIC items that let you do something similar (there was gloves of the star sky or something that let you turn spell slots into magic missiles, a head item for fireballs and a belt for teleport). That way you dont have to wait untill staves are level appropriate gear to be non useless against some of the quite common immune to mind effecting enemies.
I agree that, while I liked feignting as an option for the class it's not the only one. The beguiler is more then able to hide himself with half a dozen spells and effects. Heck I took the skill trick group fakeout from complete scoundrel which if i remember correctly allowed me to faint multiple targets within 30ft (at a penalty per additional target).
I ended up taking a rather circuitous multiclassing route into 1 level of Mindbender (to get telepathy, so I could still use language-dependent spells while using Zone of Silence for stealth) and into Rainbow Servant, having met with the couatl of the Isle of Dread, in order to pick up the Good domain. That then allowed me to go into Sacred Exorcist, which came in handy against the heavy evil outsider tilt of that AP, plus giving me some handy options for situations where direct damage was required (like Holy Smite and Blade Barrier) or some other nice spells that filled niches outside the beguiler's list (really all of the Good domain spells came in pretty handy, from Prot-Evil to Holy Word, Holy Aura, and SM9).
At which point you aren't really a Beguiler. The Beguiler is great in theory. Not so much in practice.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I ended up taking a rather circuitous multiclassing route into 1 level of Mindbender (to get telepathy, so I could still use language-dependent spells while using Zone of Silence for stealth) and into Rainbow Servant, having met with the couatl of the Isle of Dread, in order to pick up the Good domain. That then allowed me to go into Sacred Exorcist, which came in handy against the heavy evil outsider tilt of that AP, plus giving me some handy options for situations where direct damage was required (like Holy Smite and Blade Barrier) or some other nice spells that filled niches outside the beguiler's list (really all of the Good domain spells came in pretty handy, from Prot-Evil to Holy Word, Holy Aura, and SM9).At which point you aren't really a Beguiler. The Beguiler is great in theory. Not so much in practice.
I don't disagree with that in terms of the overall scope of the class. There are lots of ways to enhance and diversify a class with a particular focus like a beguiler has. Had I gone a different route with the character, a 1-level multiclass into Warlock actually would have been an interesting notion, especially in a beguiler's early career, mostly for the invocation that gives you an always-on +6 bonus to Bluff (and I think 2 other Cha skills, probably Int and Dip), but also for the arcane zap power, whatever it was called. Not big damage, but an always-available ranged touch weapon would have come in handy through the early levels against brain-dead/immune foes.
Regardless of that, though, I was responding more particularly to the claim that their sneaky-spell class abilities can only work when they "have surprise or feinting in combat, so yeah" or something to that effect. With regard to THOSE beguiler class abilities, which he most definitely used throughout all 21 of is levels, it was very easy throughout his career to cash in those bonuses, and surprise and feinting made up a small minority of the amount of time that he did get them.
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In the one game my group had a Beguiler, the class turned out to be complete broken (both ways). It either completely overpowered the encounters (leaving the other PCs to mop up with coup-de-grace's), or it did absolutely nothing (if the enemies were immune to mindaffecting or had very high Will saves). And this was a problem all the way through the campaign, even at low levels.
THIS. +10 to it.
Actually, I am of the opinion that PF already has multiple beguilers. May I draw your attention to:
The Fey Bloodline
The Infernal Bloodline
The Enchantment School
It's easy to make a beguiler with any of those as a starting point.
I personally think we only need to convert their spells. Things like whelm and overwhem are super sweet. Up them 1 level and put them on wiz/sorc list, or keep them the same for the bard perhaps.
Beguilers are closest to the arcane trickster prestige class
Beguiler as a Sorcerer Bloodline
Not really going to work.
Eh, it's been working OK for 3 1/2 years.
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I would not allow them a bloodline. They are not sorcerers and have their own things, they should not be granted class abilities of another class.
Actually, WotC explicitly calls them sorcerers here.
And since we already have bloodlines that change your casting stat (Empyreal, Sage) it wouldn't be a stretch to do it here as well.
Illusion of Calm would be a staple spell for Kirth's beguiler (great job on the conversion btw).
So Jason, how would you convert it? Bloodline, archetype, alternate class, new base class?
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One of my players linked me to this conversion. It looks crazy official, but can't find it referenced in any books, does anybody have any more information on it?
As official as it looks (and it's pretty convincing at first blush), it gives itself away by using a mirror-flipped version of the beguiler artwork from PHB II. Also, whoever did the layout messed up the leading (the space between the lines) between the black titles and the Aura/School lines, amongst other issues.
(Warning! Warning! Layout and design man in his natural habit!)
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One of my players linked me to this conversion. It looks crazy official, but can't find it referenced in any books, does anybody have any more information on it?
That would be ertw's beguiler conversion that has been in the works for a while now on these boards. It's not official, but I've playtested it fairly extensively and can vouch for it being exceptionally well balanced amongst the pathfinder caster classes. You can find more of my thoughts about how the class plays here.
(Warning! Warning! Layout and design man in his natural habit!)
Of course I then go and misspell 'habitat', because I'm awesome like that.
This one can, which makes it all the worse. :p
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I've been playing Ertw's conversion for a few months, Penumbral Shadow's description of how the class plays was pretty spot on. It's a really killer out of combat, but eclipsed by pretty much everybody else when the fighting starts. While going through the old thread, I found Happy Pappy's post on page 4 really touched on the reasons I didn't like the archetype/bloodline/direct conversion approaches: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmqe&page=4?Beguiler-conversion-for-Pathfi nder
It's been a while since I used MS Word for tables, but you should be able to vertically justify your cells, as well as horizontally.