By the time our group finishes today's Kingmaker game, I am likely to see a new level. As a level 5 ranger, I'll be picking up a new favored enemy.
I was hoping for advice as to which one I should choose in order to best survive Kingmaker. At the moment I already have humans as my first favored enemy.
And please, no spoilers.
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By the time our group finishes today's Kingmaker game, I am likely to see a new level. As a level 5 ranger, I'll be picking up a new favored enemy.
I was hoping for advice as to which one I should choose in order to best survive Kingmaker. At the moment I already have humans as my first favored enemy.
And please, no spoilers.
OK, I'll limit myself to logic and deduction instead of spoilers.
Kingmaker takes place on a sparsely populated frontier of a sparsely populated region. Lots of forest, swamp, and badlands. The three best categories I could imagine would be animals, fey and magical beasts.
I guess you could argue for plants as well, but there are just not enough of them in D&D to justify it. So I guess, without spoilers, your decision would rest on which of those categories you imagine you'd be fighting most often. Personally in a wilderness campaign I would opt for magical beast, as they have a wide range of applicable CR encounters.
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A ranger’s best choices for favored enemies in Kingmaker include the following: animal, dragon, fey, humanoid (boggard, human, giant, or reptilian), magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, undead, and vermin.
Good favored terrain choices include forest, mountain, plains, swamp, and water.
human
fey
you will socialise with fey and well as kill them, so it all helps
Dragons!
If you want to tie your favored enemies into flavor, the area is swamped with bandits and trolls (Human and Giant, which will both be of good use, though I'd suggest troll as second, since you should try to avoid them until lv5 anyway). The stolen lands are notorious for being near impossible to tame due to the "will of the lands themselves" (aka in the hands of fey), which also makes sense.
Beyond those three, I guess dragons and evil outsiders makes sense for later, as you always encounter those. There is a good handful of magical beasts too.
Note to players: The spoilers below are pretty heavy spoilers, but if you want to get the most out of your abilities, these are my opinions as a GM that has played through parts 1-4, and read 5-6.
Boggard, reptilian, plant and vermin are less useful than the others.
If you want a list of suggestions as far I personally think:
1: Humans (useful through parts 1-5)
5: Giants (GREAT in parts 2-3, good in 4-5)
10: Fey (All parts, really, but moreso later on)
15: Dragons (You'll see..........)
As for terrain, I think Mountain (and by extention, hills) are the most common through levels 1-9. Forest might seem logical, but there's a surprising lack of forests beyond part 1 and 2. Beyond mountains, I am not really sure. Underground actually helps a bit, as there is at least one trip into a dungeon or a cave per part.
DING!
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No he hasnt
it is a very valid question
Its like say asking in 'serpents skull'....oh shall i build a nautical based character....when the-powers-that-be will say No, its not nautical at all really
Read the KM players guide.....it tells you what you ranger should be looking at, what sorceror domain fits, what gods your cleric shoudl follow.etc to maximise the gaming fun for the money you have paid.
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As another poster said, it's a legitimate question. The list of "good" choices included in the Kingmaker player's guide is rather broad, and includes several ones that don't see much use in most campaigns (like Plant). Also, the player asked for no spoilers, meaning he's either genuinely trying to not metagame or trying to look like he's not metagaming.
Human is an obvious first choice (players get a 'yee shalle hunte banditse' flyer right off the bat). Magical Beasts are fairly well represented in terms of CR range in the Beasiary.
Animals and Fey are likely to be quite common in the Adventure path, but are clustered around certain CR ranges in the Bestiary, so odds are they'll get used a lot within those level ranges then fade away.
Plants just aren't prevalent enough in the Bestiary to make taking them a good choice in most campaigns. Unless kingmaker includes a good number of unique plant monsters, that is. One can never know for sure :).
As someone who knows nothing more about Kingmaker than he's read in the sales text, here's my advice, directed to the DM rather than the player:
When a player has a class feature such as favored enemy, you, the DM have four basic choices. The first two are good choices. The third is bad and ought to be avoided. The fourth is really, really bad, and is only used by weenie DMs.
1. Give the player the top two or three most useful favored enemies based on the adventure as prepared.
2. Let the player choose whatever favored enemies he wants, and the rewrite the adventure to include those favored enemies. (This is my personal preference, and I've even retooled standard monsters as new types to facilitate my ranger player's favored enemy awesomeness.)
3. Give no direction at all, greatly increasing the possibility that the ranger's favored enemy class feature will go unused.
4. Rewrite the adventure to exclude the ranger's favored enemy class feature, especially when it comes to important encounters.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
I'm still not convinced that the original question isn't a form of Metagaming or "MinMaxing".
When developing a first level character in a role playing game, shouldn't the "favored enemy" be one that you have dealt with in your early (unplayed) life? or one that you have been trained to fight?
It makes no sense for a first level character to have "Favored Enemy: Dragons" or for even, "Favored Enemy: Magical Beasts".
Humans, other races, non-magical beasts, all make sense. Then, as you develop your character, your favored enemy choices should evolve with you.
Maybe it's just me, but planning your favored enemy choices or "character builds" to be tailor suited for the AP is not Role Playing. It's more the kind of thing you would do in an MMO, or a Baldur's Gate.
Either way - you play your game and I'll play mine. There's no "right answer" - just what's right for you and what's right for me and my group.
I just wanted to chime in to let Themetricsystem know he / she isn't alone.
I'm still not convinced that the original question isn't a form of Metagaming or "MinMaxing".
When developing a first level character in a role playing game, shouldn't the "favored enemy" be one that you have dealt with in your early (unplayed) life? or one that you have been trained to fight?
No to the first part, yes to the 2nd
the pc's havent stumbled into the Stolen Lands.
they have been chosen, selected especially, with reason, for this task
therefore of the X rangers available, your was chosen primarily cos he has studied in theory and practise the fine art of engaging, on all levels, monster Z
I'm still not convinced that the original question isn't a form of Metagaming or "MinMaxing".
When developing a first level character in a role playing game, shouldn't the "favored enemy" be one that you have dealt with in your early (unplayed) life? or one that you have been trained to fight?
No to the first part, yes to the 2nd
the pc's havent stumbled into the Stolen Lands.
they have been chosen, selected especially, with reason, for this tasktherefore of the X rangers available, your was chosen primarily cos he has studied in theory and practise the fine art of engaging, on all levels, monster Z
That would be assuming that the back story was that you were "handpicked" or "chosen" rather than some other way of obtaining the charter.
Also - even if you were "selected", it's not as if the Swordlords know there is a major Fey villain or dragons (unless they read the spoilers too). So they wouldn't be wandering Restov looking for the meanest level 1 who was trained in the fine art of Dragon Dispatching.
Like I said before - each campaign and GM style is different. I prefer a certain style, and I am selective on who my players are and who I run games for. As long as you and your players are having fun - you're doing it right.
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Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
Is it better to choose a favored enemy at random and just hope it even comes up in game at all? I would rather do a bit of necessary metagaming than end up with a completely useless class feature. That's simply not fair to the player imo.
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Is it better to choose a favored enemy at random and just hope it even comes up in game at all? I would rather do a bit of necessary metagaming than end up with a completely useless class feature. That's simply not fair to the player imo.Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
Well, he HAS been playing the campaign up to fifth level, so he's obviously faced more than humans thus far: he can draw on what he's experienced so far, and it still be relevant all the way to the endgame.
I'm guessing you're about halfway through the second book? At this point, I believe you've faced or encountered humans, animals, fey, giants, reptillians, and magical beasts, as well as a few others. Any of those are good choices, so, in character, I would consider which of them you think would be most probable, and maybe even traw around for rumors as to threats to your nation: that could give your DM a hint that you're asking for advice.
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Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
It's not any different than asking about the usefulness of a mount in a campaign. A player should be allowed to use his class features, and there's nothing wrong or even that spoilerish about asking what enemy types will be appearing in a campaign.
It's not any different than asking about the usefulness of a mount in a campaign. A player should be allowed to use his class features, and there's nothing wrong or even that spoilerish about asking what enemy types will be appearing in a campaign.Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
+1
+1It's not any different than asking about the usefulness of a mount in a campaign. A player should be allowed to use his class features, and there's nothing wrong or even that spoilerish about asking what enemy types will be appearing in a campaign.Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
+1,+2,+3,etc etc etc.
That would be assuming that the back story was that you were "handpicked" or "chosen" rather than some other way of obtaining the charter.
Also - even if you were "selected", it's not as if the Swordlords know there is a major Fey villain or dragons (unless they read the spoilers too). So they wouldn't be wandering Restov looking for the meanest level 1 who was trained in the fine art of Dragon Dispatching.
Like I said before - each campaign and GM style is different. I prefer a certain style, and I am selective on who my players are and who I run games for. As long as you and your players are having fun - you're doing it right.
of course you were picked, or put forward? how would you be on the charter?
Also, assuming its ok to have the PG to read, then the PCS, dragonlords et al are aware of sort of whats to the South....hunters, trappers, folkm passing through will habve mentioned its a haven for owlbears, fey in the forest, unique for its thylacines and elk, etc.everyone is selective in style of play and who thye GM too, except maybe at a CON.
as the OP said he is also 5th so will be in mod 2 so should at least have a good clue of what a good 2nd choice is
it is good everyones KM is quite diff....the beauty of the mods, so well done Paizo
Novalord Wrote:
"of course you were picked, or put forward? how would you be on the charter?"
If you have a creative GM, there are MANY ways you could obtain the charter.
Maybe you stole it from the rightful owners (or some other illegal method). Maybe you "bought" your way onto the charter because of your family / noblity (so you're not the perfect person for the job).
Use your imagination.
I find that the Player's Guides spoil too much. I don't give them directly to the players. I copy and paste from them what I want my players to know.
Again, my style vs. yours. Bottom line - have fun.
+1,+2,+3,etc etc etc.+1It's not any different than asking about the usefulness of a mount in a campaign. A player should be allowed to use his class features, and there's nothing wrong or even that spoilerish about asking what enemy types will be appearing in a campaign.Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
+ a bunch for me too. I actually make it a point to let my ranger players know a couple of good options for the upcoming story. Favored enemy is too big a part of the Ranger's class features to let it go to waste on an enemy who will never show up.
Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
Of course, the default assumption by the writers is that the players will have this knowledge. That is why they included it in the player's guide for Kingmaker. Read the Ranger section. It gives a listof which favored enemies are recomended.
Without this type of metagaming, the ranger is by far the worst player class in the game. All of his bonuses are based off of knowing what he will face in the future. Without that knowledge, I would tell everyone to play annother class.
Is it better to choose a favored enemy at random and just hope it even comes up in game at all? I would rather do a bit of necessary metagaming than end up with a completely useless class feature. That's simply not fair to the player imo.Ask your DM. He should be able to give you a decent idea, and if not then it is up to him really. If there is an in depth pre-game backstory for each character I can see why he wouldn't want to give you too much information.
I assert that this is metagaming at its worst, coming to a forum specifically asking for what the best favored enemies are so you can get those on your character. You are trying to apply out of game knowledge that your character would have no idea of to your advantage, ei, metagaming.
Have you asked your DM for hints? The Kingmaker Player's Guide has the referenced list in it to answer precisely this question without giving spoilers or metagaming. This kind of question, regardless of your OP saying that you didn't want spoilers, is very difficult to answer without giving spoilers, unless you want generic advice you can probably figure out yourself. I'm not going to judge your motives in asking the question, but surely you can see why some people would suspect you are metagaming (looking to gather knowledge out of character that will help you in character)?
My suggestion would be that you make your decision based on what you have faced/learned thusfar. Humans was a good choice for you at 1st level, given that your original charter specifically mentions bandits as a focus. Now, approaching 5th level, what monsters have you either encountered most frequently or have given your party the most trouble? Is there any type of monster that has been particularly tough on your ranger character? In other words, pick one that matches the story, and run it by the DM. It will probably work out mechanically pretty well, and trust your DM to give you a hint if you pick something totally off-base. If your DM's not trustworthy you already have bigger problems to worry about.
Without this type of metagaming, the ranger is by far the worst player class in the game. All of his bonuses are based off of knowing what he will face in the future. Without that knowledge, I would tell everyone to play annother class.
I get what you're saying, but playing a ranger doesn't require foreknowledge. As I mentioned above, all the ranger really needs is a DM who's willing to rewrite/craft encounters to include the ranger's favored enemies.
I have a ranger player in my current campaign. He dithered about his ranger's favored enemy because, in his experience, chosing a favored enemy caused that type of creature to vanish from play. During one of our earlier sessions involving evil fey, the players asked if could take fey as his favored enemy.
"Yes," said I.
"But will we encounter fey again?"
"If you choose them as your eff ee, then, yes, you'll encounter them again," said I.
He made the choice, and fey have been the major foes in our current story arc. I've even taken one iconic D&D humanoid and reworked it as a fey creature.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
How much milegae would I get from taking Animals as FE? In comparison with Humans?
I'll probably take Humans, Giants, Fey, Dragons, but I'm just pondering whether Animal is better choice than Humans. I'm going for Infiltrator, and Animal has better Adaption choices, but if there are more Humans in AP, then I guess I'll go for them.
That's a can of worms that you don't want to open. :D Basically, it comes down to this - I'd rather choose the better mechanical option and work my character around that than choose a senseful Favored Enemy whom I won't face in the AP. And don't continue discussion in that way it's gonna turn into a flame war. :D
Have you asked your DM for hints? The Kingmaker Player's Guide has the referenced list in it to answer precisely this question without giving spoilers or metagaming.
This is exactly the answer you need!
The player's guide has all the recommendations that were deemed both necessary and save for the players to have. It won't leave you in the dark with basic information ("What do you mean, we're supposed to run a kingdom???") without giving you too much information your characters are meant to find out ("So I should take dragons because one is eating all the virgins in a city we annex later, and giant because the big boss is a mad troll wizard who thinks he's the king of the Stolen Lands?")
Beyond that, ask your GM already. He'll give you all the information he wants you to have as a player. That way you won't cheat.
Note: Cheating is a subjective term in roleplaying games. And since the GM makes the rules, he defines what is cheating. For some GMs, it would be cheating to let you know that later on, you'll have clashing armies in the game while others let you look at the BBEGs stats to show you what you're up against.
Note 2: A great way to really mess up your character and his expectations would be assuming that the examples I gave above are not malicious lies! :D
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That's a can of worms that you don't want to open. :D Basically, it comes down to this - I'd rather choose the better mechanical option and work my character around that than choose a senseful Favored Enemy whom I won't face in the AP. And don't continue discussion in that way it's gonna turn into a flame war. :D
Then I refer you again to my first answer:
Animals are not likely to be useful beyond the first couple of books. Basically Human is a good choice for EVERY Adventure Path, because EVERY Adventure Path heavily features humans because that is the way Golarion is flavoured. Anything more than what I'm telling you is spoiler territory, and you can make those decisions on the way your character interacts in the world.
Beyond that, ask your GM already. He'll give you all the information he wants you to have as a player. That way you won't cheat.
He said that I should read the player guide and that's all the help I'll get. Since I'll have 4 Favored Enemies and there's at least 10 suggested creature types in Player's Guide, it wasn't much of a help.
Take humans, fey, undead and magical beasts.
Now you can PWN!
Optimization is so cool... RAWR.
Sarcasm aside, I appreciate your input. :D Although someone mentioned Humans, Giants, Fey and Dragons as the dominant ones. Now I can't decide. :/
Sarcasm aside, I appreciate your input. :D Although someone mentioned Humans, Giants, Fey and Dragons as the dominant ones. Now I can't decide. :/
Whoever told you that is a noob.
If you wanna run endgame content with that Ranger you need to read the guides and get a solid build.
What's your gear score?
Here we go again...
Sarcasm aside, I appreciate your input. :D Although someone mentioned Humans, Giants, Fey and Dragons as the dominant ones. Now I can't decide. :/
I would go with humans because most animals are low CR. Humans get class levels, and so they will be opponents for pretty much all of your levels. Overall, that list is solid.
Take this as you will, but Harsk (the dwarf ranger from the AP) has taken the following favoured enemies by the time he gets to the end of the campaign:
Humanoid(Giant) +6
Fey +4
Monstrous Humanoid +4
Humanoid(Human) +2
Hmm - I'm just noticing, however, that this is actually impossible to take as the bonuses don't had up correctly. Based on his stats throughout the AP, I expect his progression was supposed to be:
1st
Humanoid(Giant) +2
5th
Humanoid(Giant) +4
Fey +2
10th
Humanoid(Giant) +4
Fey +4
Humanoid(Human) +2
15th
Humanoid(Giant) +4
Fey +4
Monstrous Humanoid +4
Humanoid(Human) +2
Beyond that, ask your GM already. He'll give you all the information he wants you to have as a player. That way you won't cheat.He said that I should read the player guide and that's all the help I'll get. Since I'll have 4 Favored Enemies and there's at least 10 suggested creature types in Player's Guide, it wasn't much of a help.
It was enough. All these are relevant. You might not get the perfect build out of this, but you'll have to cope.
Did you ask him what he thinks about you asking here? Does he think it's okay, does he think you're a cheater, or is it somewhere in between?
There is no "perfect build", and here's why:
Undead are tough: if you don't have a party Paladin or Cleric, then the Ranger had better pick up the slack! But if you have another party member that's pretty good at undead, then you have that situation "covered" and can focus your energies elsewhere.
Similarly, as others have pointed out, there's a ton of humans to kill. Probably more than any other type of creature. But, more than any other type of creature, you don't have to kill humans. They can be reasoned with, bought off, threatened, etc. And FE doesn't add to your Diplomacy check. So, depending on your playstyle, while humans might be the majority of encounters they certainly won't be the majority of your combats.
Then there's the issue of "dragons." Comparatively, these suckers are pretty rare. But when they do show up, it's usually boss-level or otherwise deadly fight. Is that worth plunking down FE for? I dunno.
Other side of the same coin: "animal": these guys are all over the damn place, but there aren't a ton of boss-battles with them. Is that worth plunking down FE for? I dunno.
I could do this with all types of creature. Really, this logic applies to all APs and campaigns. (Except for tightly-focused campaigns, which Kingmaker is not.)
So, seriously, there is no "best" answer. Go look at the Player's Guide. Yes, it has 10 options. Yes, you'll only end up choosing 4 of them. You have to make the descision, based on what you personally like to kill, and what your other party members will handle for you. Otherwise, you'll just wring your hands all day until you end up reading the mod for yourself in desparation, and then your GM kicks you out for reading ahead. And you don't want to get there.
I'll ponder on this, but I think I'll go for Magical Beasts for the second, instead of Giants. We just started playing (2 sessions) and Humans was a good choice.
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As someone who knows nothing more about Kingmaker than he's read in the sales text, here's my advice, directed to the DM rather than the player:
When a player has a class feature such as favored enemy, you, the DM have four basic choices. The first two are good choices. The third is bad and ought to be avoided. The fourth is really, really bad, and is only used by weenie DMs.
1. Give the player the top two or three most useful favored enemies based on the adventure as prepared.
2. Let the player choose whatever favored enemies he wants, and the rewrite the adventure to include those favored enemies. (This is my personal preference, and I've even retooled standard monsters as new types to facilitate my ranger player's favored enemy awesomeness.)
3. Give no direction at all, greatly increasing the possibility that the ranger's favored enemy class feature will go unused.
4. Rewrite the adventure to exclude the ranger's favored enemy class feature, especially when it comes to important encounters.
Mark L. Chance |
Spes Magna Games
I'd have to say those top two are the BAD ideas. There's enough out there for players to make up their own minds. Giving them ideas about the top 3 most commen foes leads to extreme imbalance for a ranger vs other fighters. In our Savage Tides game, it took no time at all for the player to learn he'd fighting demons due to information readily available everywhere. The next hing you know you've got a Ranger with Evil outsider favored enemy wielding holy cold iron weapons and adding ungodly damage bonuses to nearly every fight...worse than multiple radiant servants running around in Age of Worms...Merely tell the Ranger player the type of eviroment he will be going in and let him make up his own mind.
rant
Do you also tell the wizard, fireball, fly, lightning bolt, disintegrate and teleport are not available for him?
/rant
Hmm - I'm just noticing, however, that this is actually impossible to take as the bonuses don't had up correctly. Based on his stats throughout the AP, I expect his progression was supposed to be:
(Some calculations)
Huh. It does appear to be in error.
It appears that what he did was: (taken from looking at his various sheets throughout the AP)
1st level: Humanoids (giants) +2
5th: Humanoids (giants) +4, Fey +2
10th: Humanoids (giants) +6, Fey +4, Humanoids (human) +2
15th: Humanoids (giants) +6, Fey +4, Humanoids (human) +2, Monstrous Humanoid +4
That extra +2 at 10th level appears to have been in error. At least as far as I can see. Or at least, if there's an explanation, I cannot see it.
1st level: Humanoids (giants) +2
5th: Humanoids (giants) +4, Fey +2
10th: Humanoids (giants) +6, Fey +4, Humanoids (human) +2
15th: Humanoids (giants) +6, Fey +4, Humanoids (human) +2, Monstrous Humanoid +4
There's still an extra +2 added at 10th level here (to both giants and fey). He could have only increased one of them but there's no way to tell from his earlier or later stats which one he chose.
There's still an extra +2 added at 10th level here (to both giants and fey). He could have only increased one of them but there's no way to tell from his earlier or later stats which one he chose.1st level: Humanoids (giants) +2
5th: Humanoids (giants) +4, Fey +2
10th: Humanoids (giants) +6, Fey +4, Humanoids (human) +2
15th: Humanoids (giants) +6, Fey +4, Humanoids (human) +2, Monstrous Humanoid +4
...uh, which is why my full quote is "That extra +2 at 10th level appears to have been in error."