[Dreamscarred Press] Psionics Unleashed Now In Beta


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JMD031 wrote:

I suppose in that regard I would like to see them at the level of a two weapon fighting rogue who is able to sneak attack. This would make it so that their base line damage isn't high but they have the potential for high damage given the right circumstance, i.e. with their psychic strike.

My current beef with the soulknife beta is that it has the appearance of being a fighter/rogue gestalt class which is one of the many reasons all of those extra base classes from the splat books were overpowered. Effectively, the class as it is has a fighter's HD and BAB and the rogue's progression for extra damage and talents. This is why I suggested that the talent progression fall more in line with the barbarian's rage powers or perhaps something different all together instead of every other level.

Well the thing about the soulknife is that it is a combat class, specialising in it's unique weapon.

It has one major feature, the mindblade with which it gets two features: Blade Skills and psychic strike.

Consider the other combat classes:
Barbarians get one cool ability (rage) with features (rage powers) and a few other bits and bobs around that concept.
Fighters get all-round ability, with masses of feats and their weapon and armour training features that make them much more effective against any generic opponent in a toe-to-toe fight.
Paladins get one primary combat ability and a host of smaller abilities. Smite is very powerful but restricted in usage per day.
Rangers get their combat style and favoured enemy bonuses as well as other abilities.
Soulknives have their psychic strike (not something they can use frequently in a protracted fight) and their blade skills.

So in a fight:
The barbarian can rage for limited rounds per day, gaining a bonus to hit and damage for doing so (+4 strength and con count for a lot).
The fighter can nail anything with his weapon training and specialist feats (total of +6 to hit +8 damage in the long run).
The paladin can smite, singling out one foe for +level damage for the fight.
Rangers get +8 to hit and +8 damage at the top of their favoured enemy tree.
Soulknives get psychic strike for +5d8 top damage, but take a move action to recharge so it's one hit per round or use it and lose it.

This isn't in and of itself unbalanced compared to the other classes.


Dabbler wrote:

Well the thing about the soulknife is that it is a combat class, specialising in it's unique weapon.

It has one major feature, the mindblade with which it gets two features: Blade Skills and psychic strike.

Consider the other combat classes:
Barbarians get one cool ability (rage) with features (rage powers) and a few other bits and bobs around that concept.
Fighters get all-round ability, with masses of feats and their weapon and armour training features that make them much more effective against any generic opponent in a toe-to-toe fight.
Paladins get one primary combat ability and a host of smaller abilities. Smite is very powerful but restricted in usage per day.
Rangers get their combat style and favoured enemy bonuses as well as other abilities.
Soulknives have their psychic strike (not something they can use frequently in a protracted fight) and their blade skills.

So in a fight:
The barbarian can rage for limited rounds per day, gaining a bonus to hit and damage for doing so (+4 strength and con count for a lot).
The fighter can nail anything with his weapon training and specialist feats (total of +6 to hit +8 damage in the long run).
The...

I am bad at making my point. My complaint has nothing to do with damage. My complaint is that the Soulknife toolbox is bigger than the Fighter's toolbox, which is why I made the comment about the bladeskills. Unfortunately, I misread my rulebook and it turns out that the progression for this ability is no different than Barbarian Rage Powers or Rogue Talents or even Fighter Bonus Feats so my complaint is moot as Jeremy pointed out. But, as Jeremy Smith just posted and I agree with is changing some of the abilities that mimic feats which I feel will help change the preconception about the class.

I feel the challenge with the class when it comes to balance will be to make it a worthwhile class to play when it comes to base abilities but yet not overpowering other classes. One other issue that comes into play is feats that will inevitably be produced when it comes to creating psionics. Sure, the current rules for psionic focus make it a move action but there was a feat that made it a free action and that does two things: 1. makes it practically manditory for optimization 2. allows the use of psychic strike every round. I'm not saying that this feat will actually happen but it is something to think about when designing this class or any class for that matter.


I understand now what you mean!

I don't think that the soulknife's toolbox is bigger, although I agree it is different and blade skills that do what feats do should be skipped (bladewind and bladestorm being exceptions, they are throwbacks to the 3.5 soulknife).

Sczarni

In that regard, toppling strike for example is still extremely strong as well.

The only issue that I have with this version really is that after running it through a test last night it came very close to damage with the fighter, and it's AC was about the same (medium armor with some other protecting items made the lack of full plate irrelevant), and also it managed to outshine it outside of combat due to it's greater amount of skill points.

So my request would be to in fact listen to dabbler and reduce his armor proficiency oto light and (unless his damage potential is toned down) to reduce it's skill points a bit.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Okay, you people still aren't seeing it.

#1, Quick actions: Go look in the OCS under ACtions. Free actions can be done in the middile of other actions. Swift actions are like free actions, except you can only do 1/rd.
Ergo, SWIFT ACTIONS CAN BE DONE IN THE MIDDLE OF OTHER ACTIONS.
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Cirno and Dabbler:

You mean all of us who have played the soulknife before in 3.5 version are all completely mistaken and utterly wrong. Have you considered that YOU might be the one getting the wrong end of the stick?
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No, because I don't give a fig about the 3.5 class. I'm looking at this one on its own merits. Why don't you do the same?
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Aelryinth wrote:

Throwing/Returning: This is a +2 combo. He gets it free on his mindblade as soon as he gets two attacks, and Quick Draw is his bonus feat at 5. Thus, he's at +2 MORE then the table. he's also got basically infinite throwing ammunition. More gold savings.

All it does is allow the soulknife to have a (limited) ranged weapon that is half-way effective. This is thematically and mechanically fine, because the soulknife is all about the mindblade as essentially his only weapon.

A fighter has the option of using a bow with a vastly better range and equivelant damage. No one is crying broken about that, though.
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No. what it does is give the soulblade a throwing weapon that is the equal of his primary weapon, including all bonus feats, and infinite ammunition.

To give the Fighter/barbarian/paladin the same effect, you'd need Throwing and QUICK RETURNING on all their melee weapons (Returning still only lets you throw ONCE). It's a +2 Effect. You might as well give the other melees the ability to hit something at 10' range increments, or whatever...it's the EXACT SAME EFFECT, and you are ignoring it.

The Soulblade ALSO has the option of owning a bow...and a better bow then the fighter, because his primary weapon is FREE.
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Aelryinth wrote:

Note: A monk is a poor comparison to a mindblade. Increased dmg does not sub for enhancement bonuses. All monks get amulets of mighty fists, because they NEED them...and they are NOT cheap.

Or knuckle-dusters, which are much, much cheaper. Even then, the monk does not have to blow cash on armour or shields, so he's hardly suffering.
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Again a useless counter-example. It's the magic that's expensive, not the weapon it's put on...and you'd still have to buy 2 dusters, making it the same as the amulet.
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Aelryinth wrote:

Throw Anything: You can't usually throw a TH sword or longspear, but he can throw his big mindblade. It's better then a random thing, and he always has it. This is the closest feat equiv.

It's not a two handed sword. How many two-handed swords do bludgeoning damage, or piercing? It's a mindblade. DSP deliberately changed the description to separate the mindblade from the concept of it being a mental version of being a specific weapon and to make clear it is a type of weapon in it's own right. A two-handed mindblade could have the visual form of a giant Frisbee with spikes on it, it doesn't matter. Many melee weapons can be thrown, such as daggers, hand-axes, spears, but I have not seen you launching a campaign to have their costs updated to be +1-equivelant weapons for having the 'throwing' quality.

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It's the equivalent of TH sword, LOngspear, or Polemace. Quit being obtuse. None of them are throwable. You either need magic or the throw anything feat to throw then. I don't CARE what the description is, only what it is equivalent to for other classes. Y'know, so you can balance it with them.
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Aelryinth wrote:

Bladestorm: Acts exactly like the AoE archer ability. IT should NOT. It should be a thrown attack, and if it hits, you can discharge your Psychic Strike from your weapon as an AoE from the target point. Save for half, maybe. Different focus, differnt flavor, different results.

I have to mirror Prof Cirno on this one - why change it? What's wrong with it being what it is.
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Indeed, why don't we make ALL class abilities just like one another, so there's nothing unique between classes, and none of them have any special abilities of their own? It just makes sense!
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Aelryinth wrote:

Blade Wind: This is whirlwind attack w/o as horrible of reqs. It should work as a Psychic Strike Standard Action AoE, activating when you hit someone in melee.

Again, why?
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Rinse and repeat Above
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Aelryinth wrote:

Fighters do NOT have Pounce. A specific, non-flexible variant of Fighter has a poor version of Pounce. If it was a Fighter feat, then I'd say YES, Fighters have Pounce. They do NOT.
Barbarians in PF only have Pounce if they take the Natural Attacker build. As a matter of fact, the only time in PF you see Pounce is as natural attacks (and UA is not natural attacks. Nor, I assume, would be a Psy warrior's artifical claws).
Just because the Psy Warrior gets it doesn't mean he should, or the soulblade. Actually, unless ALL Melee classes have access to it, none of them should. It is simply that powerful an ability. (I personally believe all melee should get it).

Pounce is an option available to barbarians and fighters.

However, I share some of your concerns, and would prefer that Furious Charge, Greater grant merely an extra attack at full attack bonus rather than multiple attacks.
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NO. A POOR version of pounce is available to some VARIANTS of barbs and Fighters. To be 'available' it must be available to ALL of them...as Pounce is for the Psy warrior and Soulknife.
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Aelryinth wrote:

Cut the Soul does Ability dmg = Psy strike. At higher levels, you can hit with two weapons. that's 10 pts dmg to an ability score. Then you can expend your focus to instantly recharge them...if they both hit again, that's TWENTY POINTS OF ABILITY DMG. that will kill 90% of creatures in the game, and probably ANY PC. God help the enemy if the DM lets you store a charge there, and you can hit 30 pts of dmg. Goodbye, climax encounter boss.

You can't spend your focus to instantly recharge mid-fight (according to most of us), although Exploding Critical would allow that with one hit. Even if it did, if you use two weapons with Duel Imbue that cuts you down to 4 points of damage per hit, which pushes it to 16 points, not 20, and that's at level 20. Now look at what a fighter can do at that level ... for example, a 2-handed fighter variant can automatically critical and confirm with a massive Power Attack with no penalty to hit (Furious Focus) for 150+ points of damage (that's without adding anything on from the weapon but a +5 bonus - no special effects are assumed there).

Now look at what you are likely to be fighting at that level. Neither the fighter nor the soulknife has managed a take-down, although both have done significant damage.
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You are in error. You can instantly spend your psy focus to recharge your psy strike...read the class.

And +20 ability dmg means anything under a 24 in Int, Wis or Cha just bit it. That's actually probably a higher number of enemies then those that lack Dex, Con or Str. It's not Hit Point dmg, either...it's 'you're DONE' dmg.

And being less effective at low level doesn't make it not overpowered at high. It's still better then the Sneak Attack ability dmg variant, because it can do a lot of ability damage all at once.
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Aelryinth wrote:

AM FIELD: he gets to keep the magic on his weapon at level ONE, and he only needs make the save 1/combat, effectively. That's horribly imbalanced. Can the fighter get this for his gear, and the wizard for theirs?? I can see him manifesting a powerless blade, but the extra stuff? Nuh-uh.

This is being debated on the DSP boards (where this criticism might be more constructive BTW) and personally I agree that the mindblade should lose it's enhancements in the AM field.
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It also means that if he can make the will save, using an AMF offensively is a FINE option for him. Also, at higher levels he'll likely invest in that Will save so that he can make the save.
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Aelryinth wrote:

Gold bias is rampant here. There's 200k he's NOT spending on a weapon, which he is entitled to. 200k is a LOT of money you can spend on other stuff. Just start saying things like: 11th level, +23,000 extra gold. Level 12, +26,000 gp more gold. Level 20, +200,000 gold more to spend then other characters, and you'll see that not having to spend gold on his weapon is a HUGE class benefit. Can the fighter's weapon not count against his gold/level, please? why not?

This was a point I raised about the previous version, that the amount of extra cash you had meant you could enhance better in other ways. It is a valid point, but there are ways to get around it. Restricting the SK to light armour means they have to either expend feats or extra cash to get equal AC protection, for example. That's one reason mindarmour was withdrawn and the mindshield has no enhancements.
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200k of gold allows for a LOT of room of other options. People keep forgetting this.
And also note that +5 enhancement bypasses all material DR, so that argument doesn't work, either!
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Aelryinth wrote:

I'd also like to point out (let's ignore the fact he can completely reshuffle his bonuses) that he can have 2, then 3 different configurations for his mindblades around. That's the equivalent of having 2 extra +10 weapons tailor made for a situation handy. Gold bias is MASSIVE here. It MUST be addressed.

Maximum of two, with a bladeskill, and it takes 8 hours of concentration (not rest) to reconfigure, and his maximum is +9. Also, there are some features he cannot have, like adamantine.
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Sigh. Read the class. Primary configuration. Secondary configuration for off hand weapon. Optional third configuration. CONFIGURATIONS take 8 hours to arrange. Ones that are ready take no time at all.
Read it again. +1 additional enhancement as he levels, for +10.
And in PF, enhancement bonuses eventually get material DR bypass. He doesn't need it defensively...at level 5, he can remanifest it as a free action with Quick Draw if it's sundered.
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Aelryinth wrote:

at 11th, he gets a base +5 weapon, +2 for throwing/returning. A +5 weapon is 50k (+7 is 98k!!!). At 89k, there's NO character who can afford that weapon as a layout in standard build at 11th. FORCING a character to have Crafter feats to stay even is not appropriate (and crafter feats still violate the 25% rule). So it's definitely a bonus...he's got a better weapon then anyone else his level, and likely better then anyone 4 levels higher!

Again with the throwing/returning thing. I mean, a mundane dagger has the throwing feature in effect for an equivelant +1 by your logic. It's just the way some weapons work. The mindblade is meant to be a supremely versatile weapon, but it's the only one the soulknife has got.

A fighter at that level can have a +4 bow with +4 arrows, for example - that's the same as a +7 weapon with throwing added on for +8 (using your logic, after all it has range), and he has the same kind of versatility just by selecting different enchantments on his arrows.
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YOu're ignoring gold costs again. THat dagger doesn't return to your hand. It's not the focus of your feats/class abilities. It's not +3-+12. You don't have to buy six of them to maximize your throwing flurry.

And the fighter example is bad, too. He's got to BUY those +4 weapons and ammo, which means they aren't always available, and certainly not customized. The mindblade has unlimited amounts of +10 ammo.
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Aelryinth wrote:

PF has made it very clear that Pounce is a special ability, and to reserve it for natural attacks. The Mobility Fighter is NOT a viable example of the ability or its flexibility. Taking an entire alternate course of Fighting ability to gain an ability that is ELECTIVE to a Psy warrior or Soulknife is not appropriate.

It's always been elective to the psywar, but the psywar was never considered overpowered in 3.5 - probably because his 3/4 BAB restricted it's usefulness, and there is no need for this to change. As I said above, I think that the 'pounce' should be merely an extra attack, because it is an elective and easier to get.
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the Psy warrior in 3.5 was considered perfect for a Melee, and comparable to the Warblade. It totally overshadowed the Fighter in versatility and options.
And you are ignoring the point that Pounce is not being given away by Pathfinder, period. ONLY with natural attacks.
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Aelryinth wrote:

I do not particularly care what the problems were in the old build. Obviously, it has not been rebuilt to Paizo standards of care and caution and balance. I could also care less about 'iconic' abilities, if they aren't balanced.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up.
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I didn't. Other people did, so drop it.
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Aelryinth wrote:

Basically, the class needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up, ignoring its history, and paying attention to balance with other characters.

They did. This is it.
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No. they are building it on legacy, and they need to ditch that thinking and do it properly. Which is why I'm commenting.
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Aelryinth wrote:

I'd start with gold cost, then building on the weapon as an equivalent of other classes benefits. I have no problem with an uber weapon balanced against the benefits of other classes...a +5 weapon at 11th is fine against a Fighter's +2 bonus...they amount to the same thing. The ability to customize, however, can be monstrously powerful.

That's what is trying to be done. Yes, it needs some fine-tuning, but sadly most of your claims are non-issues.
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Sadly, you are wrong...they are very key issues and they aren't being addressed at all.
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Aelryinth wrote:

I don't see the Soulknife as a skilled warrior. i see him with a very powerful and flexible weapon. The class should be rebuilt so that it is obvious the power is in the blade being manifested, not the soulknife.

In your opinion. I see the soulknife as a skilled warrior specialising in a unique and highly versatile weapon. What makes your opinion 'better' than mine?
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The fact that there's nothing there for specializing in his weapon,only for making the weapon uber?

The fact you can't see the potential +200k of spending money (and more) the Soulknife gets upfront is blinding you to its power. It doesn't matter that its signature ability could be built for money...it would take an INSANE amount of money to do so, certainly more then a fighter spends for his primary and secondary weapons.

Being limited to light armor means 2 AC cost. With all the extra gold, that won't be a problem to address.

Just go through the wealth/level chart,and figure 1/4 of it as 'extra gold' for all intents and purposes. You can either buy extra armor enhancements, or lots of other toys, with that much extra gold. At high level, you can buy 4 books of +5 Inherent bonuses...in addition to whatever the FIGHter gets!

You are also sorely underestimating the strength of being able to customize weaponry.

The Fighter will have ONE primary weapon. At level 20, probably something like +5 Adamantine Ghost Touch Holy Fiery Burst.

That's great against Evil foes.

Against Humans, the Soulknife will have +4 Humanbane Brililant, For +6, +2d6, ignores all armor. the fighter gets +4/+4, and +5, +3d6 IF they are evil. you never SEE Brilliant because it's a PC/NPC killer, not a monster killer...but the SOulknife can grab it, and just have it sitting on his 'off' configuration.

against Red Dragons, +5 Dragonbane Holy Axiomatic. +7, +6d6. Fighter, +9,+2d6

Against constructs: +5 Constructbane. +7 +2d6 vs +9.
Against undead: +5 Holy Ghost Touch Undeadbane Fire.
Against armies: +5 Biofeedback, never need to heal.
against powerful enemies: Put in defender for a free AC bonus, on the off hand if you need to. Like, that shield that nominally has no AC bonus.
i.e. keep going with banes and custom builds. Bane on demand is +2, +2d6, or a +2/+9 dmg effect. Worth +4 all by itself. Then customize energy/alignment attacks on top...

If stuff stays away from you, you don't have to move...you can just throw your weapon. In effect, you've +20 of weapon reach, all the time.

And you've a crapload of money to invest in other items which the fighter simply cannot afford. You get a better weapon sooner then the Fighter ever will, and you can customize it, and you can double dip your scaling Psychic Strike dmg, all in addition.

If you just stick with one configuration all the time and don't adjust it to the times, well, of course it'll suck. You're using it like a Fighter uses his weapon.

But unless you can come up with a GOOD reason why the soulknife doesn't have to shell out 200k for his weapon, and thus stay balanced with other classes, gold is a big problem here. Just go look at everything you can buy with 200k extra gold, and see where it might be just a little too much. Or, more specifically, take all the gold the fighter and barb spend on their weapons, and apply it towards anything you want.

I don't think the Soulknife is going to come up short. 200k replaces a LOT of class abilities.

==Aelryinth


Name one class ability.

Do it.

You're still caught up on gold, so I feel the need to call you out on this.

Name a single class ability the soulknife can buy.


At the moment I don't have the time to fully review the rest of Aelryrinth's post...however.

The Monk - Soulknife comparison for Wealth by level. Aelryinth, you ignored a point Dabbler made that Monk's get free AC that is fully expandable in myriad ways. At 20th level, +4 untyped bonus to AC + Wisdom Modifier. Then add in dexterity...

While I realize that magical armor costs less than magical weapons do...its still a valid point that Monk's have a large amount of their WbL freed up as well...and its never been a problem with folks before that I've ever seen. I do fail to see how this is that different.


ProfessorCirno wrote:

Name one class ability.

Do it.

You're still caught up on gold, so I feel the need to call you out on this.

Name a single class ability the soulknife can buy.

Ring of Evasion.

*ducks*


Aelryinth wrote:
Okay, you people still aren't seeing it.

No, YOU aren't seeing it. I can see your points, I just don't agree with them.

Aelryinth wrote:

#1, Quick actions: Go look in the OCS under ACtions. Free actions can be done in the middile of other actions. Swift actions are like free actions, except you can only do 1/rd.

Ergo, SWIFT ACTIONS CAN BE DONE IN THE MIDDLE OF OTHER ACTIONS.
Aelryinth wrote:

Cirno and Dabbler:

You mean all of us who have played the soulknife before in 3.5 version are all completely mistaken and utterly wrong. Have you considered that YOU might be the one getting the wrong end of the stick?
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No, because I don't give a fig about the 3.5 class. I'm looking at this one on its own merits. Why don't you do the same?

Yes you do BECAUSE YOU WERE THE ONE BRINGING UP THE ORIGINAL CLASS.

We corrected you on your claims, and now you say that is irrelevant.

As for judging the new class on it's own merits, that's what we HAVE been doing.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Throwing/Returning: This is a +2 combo. He gets it free on his mindblade as soon as he gets two attacks, and Quick Draw is his bonus feat at 5. Thus, he's at +2 MORE then the table. he's also got basically infinite throwing ammunition. More gold savings.

All it does is allow the soulknife to have a (limited) ranged weapon that is half-way effective. This is thematically and mechanically fine, because the soulknife is all about the mindblade as essentially his only weapon.

A fighter has the option of using a bow with a vastly better range and equivelant damage. No one is crying broken about that, though.
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No. what it does is give the soulblade a throwing weapon that is the equal of his primary weapon, including all bonus feats, and infinite ammunition.

Their weapon is the mindblade, and the mindblade can be thrown. Given how crap the range is, I don't see this as a problem.

Aelryinth wrote:

To give the Fighter/barbarian/paladin the same effect, you'd need Throwing and QUICK RETURNING on all their melee weapons (Returning still only lets you throw ONCE). It's a +2 Effect. You might as well give the other melees the ability to hit something at 10' range increments, or whatever...it's the EXACT SAME EFFECT, and you are ignoring it.

The Soulblade ALSO has the option of owning a bow...and a better bow then the fighter, because his primary weapon is FREE.

Except that he has to blow a feat on Martial Proficiency: Bow.

In fact relying only on the mindblade is a trap, because he then lacks a weapon with any decent range. If he does have to invest in a missile weapon, then your whole argument about gold advantage is at least partially dissipated anyway.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Note: A monk is a poor comparison to a mindblade. Increased dmg does not sub for enhancement bonuses. All monks get amulets of mighty fists, because they NEED them...and they are NOT cheap.

Or knuckle-dusters, which are much, much cheaper. Even then, the monk does not have to blow cash on armour or shields, so he's hardly suffering.
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Again a useless counter-example. It's the magic that's expensive, not the weapon it's put on...and you'd still have to buy 2 dusters, making it the same as the amulet.

Nope, brass knuckles are a pair, no extra cost.

You dismiss as irrelevant anything we come up with that you don't have an answer too.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Throw Anything: You can't usually throw a TH sword or longspear, but he can throw his big mindblade. It's better then a random thing, and he always has it. This is the closest feat equiv.

It's not a two handed sword. How many two-handed swords do bludgeoning damage, or piercing? It's a mindblade. DSP deliberately changed the description to separate the mindblade from the concept of it being a mental version of being a specific weapon and to make clear it is a type of weapon in it's own right. A two-handed mindblade could have the visual form of a giant Frisbee with spikes on it, it doesn't matter. Many melee weapons can be thrown, such as daggers, hand-axes, spears, but I have not seen you launching a campaign to have their costs updated to be +1-equivelant weapons for having the 'throwing' quality.

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It's the equivalent of TH sword, LOngspear, or Polemace. Quit being obtuse. None of them are throwable. You either need magic or the throw anything feat to throw then. I don't CARE what the description is, only what it is equivalent to for other classes. Y'know, so you can balance it with them.

No it isn't. Stop insisting your opinions are facts.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Bladestorm: Acts exactly like the AoE archer ability. IT should NOT. It should be a thrown attack, and if it hits, you can discharge your Psychic Strike from your weapon as an AoE from the target point. Save for half, maybe. Different focus, differnt flavor, different results.

I have to mirror Prof Cirno on this one - why change it? What's wrong with it being what it is.
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Indeed, why don't we make ALL class abilities just like one another, so there's nothing unique between classes, and none of them have any special abilities of their own? It just makes sense!

Why didn't you just say: "Because it would be different and distinct from Whirlwind Attack and that would make it more thematic and cool." That would be an answer I could respect.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Fighters do NOT have Pounce. A specific, non-flexible variant of Fighter has a poor version of Pounce. If it was a Fighter feat, then I'd say YES, Fighters have Pounce. They do NOT.
Barbarians in PF only have Pounce if they take the Natural Attacker build. As a matter of fact, the only time in PF you see Pounce is as natural attacks (and UA is not natural attacks. Nor, I assume, would be a Psy warrior's artifical claws).
Just because the Psy Warrior gets it doesn't mean he should, or the soulblade. Actually, unless ALL Melee classes have access to it, none of them should. It is simply that powerful an ability. (I personally believe all melee should get it).

Pounce is an option available to barbarians and fighters.

However, I share some of your concerns, and would prefer that Furious Charge, Greater grant merely an extra attack at full attack bonus rather than multiple attacks.
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NO. A POOR version of pounce is available to some VARIANTS of barbs and Fighters. To be 'available' it must be available to ALL of them...as Pounce is for the Psy warrior and Soulknife.

It's never been a problem for the psychic warrior to have this ability before, and it isn't now either. The playtests being done have shown the psychic warrior keeps pace nicely with the fighter without outshining him, I think we can call it balamced.

As I said, I support reining in the Furious Charge, Greater ability to a single extra attack, which is not over-powered.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Cut the Soul does Ability dmg = Psy strike. At higher levels, you can hit with two weapons. that's 10 pts dmg to an ability score. Then you can expend your focus to instantly recharge them...if they both hit again, that's TWENTY POINTS OF ABILITY DMG. that will kill 90% of creatures in the game, and probably ANY PC. God help the enemy if the DM lets you store a charge there, and you can hit 30 pts of dmg. Goodbye, climax encounter boss.

You can't spend your focus to instantly recharge mid-fight (according to most of us), although Exploding Critical would allow that with one hit. Even if it did, if you use two weapons with Duel Imbue that cuts you down to 4 points of damage per hit, which pushes it to 16 points, not 20, and that's at level 20. Now look at what a fighter can do at that level ... for example, a 2-handed fighter variant can automatically critical and confirm with a massive Power Attack with no penalty to hit (Furious Focus) for 150+ points of damage (that's without adding anything on from the weapon but a +5 bonus - no special effects are assumed there).

Now look at what you are likely to be fighting at that level. Neither the fighter nor the soulknife has managed a take-down, although both have done significant damage.
---------------------
You are in error. You can instantly spend your psy focus to recharge your psy strike...read the class.

And +20 ability dmg means anything under a 24 in Int, Wis or Cha just bit it. That's actually probably a higher number of enemies then those that lack Dex, Con or Str. It's not Hit Point dmg, either...it's 'you're DONE' dmg.

And being less effective at low level doesn't make it not overpowered at high. It's still better then the Sneak Attack ability dmg variant, because it can do a lot of ability damage all at once.

Level 20 abilities SHOULD be awesome. Looking at CR20 beasties from the bestiary ...

Balor - Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 27
Pit Fiend - Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 26
Ancient Gold Dragon - Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 24

Hmm. Do I see a pattern here? Against any of these, it's not a 'one-hit' take down, and in every case you have a really annoyed powerful monster right in front of you that can nail you with a full attack before you get to hit it again, with it's combat ability totally unimpaired.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

AM FIELD: he gets to keep the magic on his weapon at level ONE, and he only needs make the save 1/combat, effectively. That's horribly imbalanced. Can the fighter get this for his gear, and the wizard for theirs?? I can see him manifesting a powerless blade, but the extra stuff? Nuh-uh.

This is being debated on the DSP boards (where this criticism might be more constructive BTW) and personally I agree that the mindblade should lose it's enhancements in the AM field.
-----------------
It also means that if he can make the will save, using an AMF offensively is a FINE option for him. Also, at higher levels he'll likely invest in that Will save so that he can make the save.

I agree.

I would actually rather lose the enhancements in an AM field and have the class with a good Will save rather than a good Fort save.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Gold bias is rampant here. There's 200k he's NOT spending on a weapon, which he is entitled to. 200k is a LOT of money you can spend on other stuff. Just start saying things like: 11th level, +23,000 extra gold. Level 12, +26,000 gp more gold. Level 20, +200,000 gold more to spend then other characters, and you'll see that not having to spend gold on his weapon is a HUGE class benefit. Can the fighter's weapon not count against his gold/level, please? why not?

This was a point I raised about the previous version, that the amount of extra cash you had meant you could enhance better in other ways. It is a valid point, but there are ways to get around it. Restricting the SK to light armour means they have to either expend feats or extra cash to get equal AC protection, for example. That's one reason mindarmour was withdrawn and the mindshield has no enhancements.
===========
200k of gold allows for a LOT of room of other options. People keep forgetting this.
And also note that +5 enhancement bypasses all material DR, so that argument doesn't work, either!

All except DR/-, but yes, I take your point on this and I for one do NOT forget the value of extra gear you can purchase. This is why I would like to see the class reined back to light armour (so they have to spend more on armour). I'd also like to see more limits on the mindblade by enforcing a minimum bonus rather than just a maximum one.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

I'd also like to point out (let's ignore the fact he can completely reshuffle his bonuses) that he can have 2, then 3 different configurations for his mindblades around. That's the equivalent of having 2 extra +10 weapons tailor made for a situation handy. Gold bias is MASSIVE here. It MUST be addressed.

Maximum of two, with a bladeskill, and it takes 8 hours of concentration (not rest) to reconfigure, and his maximum is +9. Also, there are some features he cannot have, like adamantine.
----------------
Sigh. Read the class. Primary configuration. Secondary configuration for off hand weapon. Optional third configuration. CONFIGURATIONS take 8 hours to arrange. Ones that are ready take no time at all.
Read it again. +1 additional enhancement as he levels, for +10.
And in PF, enhancement bonuses eventually get material DR bypass. He doesn't need it defensively...at level 5, he can remanifest it as a free action with Quick Draw if it's sundered.

Hmm. I will get some clarity out of DSP on this one because I read it as no seperate configuration for a 2nd weapon any more, and you would need the blade skill to get this. It actually isn't very clear either way.

However, again this is a point I have raised with DSP, that the mindblade needs more limitations on the enhancements.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

at 11th, he gets a base +5 weapon, +2 for throwing/returning. A +5 weapon is 50k (+7 is 98k!!!). At 89k, there's NO character who can afford that weapon as a layout in standard build at 11th. FORCING a character to have Crafter feats to stay even is not appropriate (and crafter feats still violate the 25% rule). So it's definitely a bonus...he's got a better weapon then anyone else his level, and likely better then anyone 4 levels higher!

Again with the throwing/returning thing. I mean, a mundane dagger has the throwing feature in effect for an equivelant +1 by your logic. It's just the way some weapons work. The mindblade is meant to be a supremely versatile weapon, but it's the only one the soulknife has got.

A fighter at that level can have a +4 bow with +4 arrows, for example - that's the same as a +7 weapon with throwing added on for +8 (using your logic, after all it has range), and he has the same kind of versatility just by selecting different enchantments on his arrows.
=========
YOu're ignoring gold costs again. THat dagger doesn't return to your hand. It's not the focus of your feats/class abilities. It's not +3-+12. You don't have to buy six of them to maximize your throwing flurry.

And the fighter example is bad, too. He's got to BUY those +4 weapons and ammo, which means they aren't always available, and certainly not customized. The mindblade has unlimited amounts of +10 ammo.

My point here was that you can stack hypothetical bonuses on a weapon as much as you like - a bonus is worthless if it is unused. How many fighters waste bonuses on their weapons like throwing/returning? None that I know of. It gives the soulknife a very small edge in a very few situations, that is all, and is largely flavour.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

PF has made it very clear that Pounce is a special ability, and to reserve it for natural attacks. The Mobility Fighter is NOT a viable example of the ability or its flexibility. Taking an entire alternate course of Fighting ability to gain an ability that is ELECTIVE to a Psy warrior or Soulknife is not appropriate.

It's always been elective to the psywar, but the psywar was never considered overpowered in 3.5 - probably because his 3/4 BAB restricted it's usefulness, and there is no need for this to change. As I said above, I think that the 'pounce' should be merely an extra attack, because it is an elective and easier to get.
============
the Psy warrior in 3.5 was considered perfect for a Melee, and comparable to the Warblade. It totally overshadowed the Fighter in versatility and options.
And you are ignoring the point that Pounce is not being given away by Pathfinder, period. ONLY with natural attacks.

The psychic warrior didn't over shadow the fighter at low level where the fighter still ruled, but overshadowed it at mid to high level. That isn't saying much, though, because EVERY class overshadowed the fighter at mid to high levels in 3.5. The psychic warrior was considered balanced because it gave a nice, steady performance over all levels, and this remains. The play-tests give it good parity with the Pathfinder fighter.

'Pounce' on a psychic warrior isn't broken because the class has 3/4 BAB, limiting the hits it can achieve even with a full attack. I agree that the SK's full attack IS too much on Greater Furious Charge.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

I do not particularly care what the problems were in the old build. Obviously, it has not been rebuilt to Paizo standards of care and caution and balance. I could also care less about 'iconic' abilities, if they aren't balanced.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up.
------------
I didn't. Other people did, so drop it.

Apologies, got my wires crossed, dropped.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Basically, the class needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up, ignoring its history, and paying attention to balance with other characters.

They did. This is it.
----------
No. they are building it on legacy, and they need to ditch that thinking and do it properly. Which is why I'm commenting.

Compared to the original, that's what they did. The changes made in the first beta had some good ideas that were retained, but the first beta was broken to hell and back. The feedback DSP got was that the concept of the class (using blade skills as a catch-all for almost all special mind blade abilities) was good, but the execution was flawed, and they went with that.

Like it or not, it's not a bad concept, this class only needs fine-tuning to get it to balance out.

Aelryinth wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

I'd start with gold cost, then building on the weapon as an equivalent of other classes benefits. I have no problem with an uber weapon balanced against the benefits of other classes...a +5 weapon at 11th is fine against a Fighter's +2 bonus...they amount to the same thing. The ability to customize, however, can be monstrously powerful.

That's what is trying to be done. Yes, it needs some fine-tuning, but sadly most of your claims are non-issues.
============
Sadly, you are wrong...they are very key issues and they aren't being addressed at all.

I disagree, but you are welcome to go and make your points on the DSP boards. I think they have the basics down to pat, but they need to:

Restrict Furious Charge, Greater.
Limit armour to Light Armour.
Remove all bonuses from the AM field version of the mindblade.
Restrict the application of the bonuses of the mindblade in some ways.


Just wondering, but when will this be available for other 3PP to support and make products with OGL & PRD materials?


Why does the Soulknife has a good fort save instead of a good will save?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

JMD031 wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:

Name one class ability.

Do it.

You're still caught up on gold, so I feel the need to call you out on this.

Name a single class ability the soulknife can buy.

Ring of Evasion.

*ducks*

Any magic item that replicates a feat or spell ability is technically purchasing a 'class ability', too. UMD is called 'caster in the bag' for a reason...you can BUY all the class ability (spellcasting) you want. It's not really cost effective compared to having spellcasting, but you can DO it.

The fact other classes can get +10 weapons is thus irrelevant. As an example, make up a 20th level fighter, full gear. Then strip out his weapons, and give that gold to the Mindblade, and keep everything else the same. I can guarantee you that AC and ranged attacks won't be anything resembling a problem.

The mindblade doesn't need Pounce. He can stand there and full attack you by THROWING HIS TWO HANDED WEAPON AT YOU. he doesn't need to charge. If he wants to, he can add Distance and Seeking to his throwing configuration, and have a 40' range increment...more then enough for a typical battlefield. LONG range attack, if he must, he can pick up a crossbow, or leave it to the raycasting wizard.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

JMD031 wrote:
Why does the Soulknife has a good fort save instead of a good will save?

My guess? 'legacy'.

==aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
JMD031 wrote:
Why does the Soulknife has a good fort save instead of a good will save?

My guess? 'legacy'.

==aelryinth

No, the legacy with the original soulknife was good Will and reflex, poor Fortitude. I've argued to keep that, but to no avail.

Dreamscarred Press

LMPjr007 wrote:

Just wondering, but when will this be available for

other 3PP to support and make products with OGL & PRD materials?

Louis - we're tentatively looking at an October release. Right now, the soulknife is the biggest mechanical hurdle, so that's where most of my design time has been focused, but the other 95% of the book has mostly been tweaking little loopholes, clarifying inconsistencies, and the like.

Artwork, layout, and design are already underway and moving at a great pace.

Aelryinth - because there has been a lot of back and forth and I don't want to look over inaccurate or old data, would you be willing to email me a concise overview, with details, of your feedback on the soulknife? I realize we may not agree on every point, but you are definitely putting a lot of thought into it and I don't want to miss some very valid items that need to be addressed in all the posts.

jeremy.smith@dreamscarredpress.com or dreamscarredpress@gmail.com

Thanks :)

Dreamscarred Press

Cross-posted from the DSP forums:

So doing some numbers on wealth per level... I can see why this comes up as a problem.

At 3rd level, the mind blade is 67% of the character's expected wealth per level - essentially giving him a 40% boost in his "wealth" score. At 19th level, this drops down to around 25% of the character's expected wealth, but in the middle-tier, it can get as high as roughly 75% of the expected wealth. If the soulknife uses dual blades and takes the blade skill to bump his enhancement up, this can equate to 400k worth of wealth at 20th level.

Using the monk as a comparison, well, it's really not even close. The armor of the monk essentially equates to a +5 chainmail suit at 20th level, which is worth around 25k, along with an adamantine pseudo-lawful magic weapon, which I would liberally say is worth around an additional 25k.

However, the soulknife gets very limited defensive / utility abilities, while the monk and other classes tend to get a broader range of skills.

I'm still working through how this class may or may not change, so don't take this to mean massive nerfs incoming, but critical eye for sure. :)


Aelryinth wrote:
JMD031 wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:

Name one class ability.

Do it.

You're still caught up on gold, so I feel the need to call you out on this.

Name a single class ability the soulknife can buy.

Ring of Evasion.

*ducks*

Any magic item that replicates a feat or spell ability is technically purchasing a 'class ability', too. UMD is called 'caster in the bag' for a reason...you can BUY all the class ability (spellcasting) you want. It's not really cost effective compared to having spellcasting, but you can DO it.

The fact other classes can get +10 weapons is thus irrelevant. As an example, make up a 20th level fighter, full gear. Then strip out his weapons, and give that gold to the Mindblade, and keep everything else the same. I can guarantee you that AC and ranged attacks won't be anything resembling a problem.

The mindblade doesn't need Pounce. He can stand there and full attack you by THROWING HIS TWO HANDED WEAPON AT YOU. he doesn't need to charge. If he wants to, he can add Distance and Seeking to his throwing configuration, and have a 40' range increment...more then enough for a typical battlefield. LONG range attack, if he must, he can pick up a crossbow, or leave it to the raycasting wizard.

==Aelryinth

Things this post does not contain: a class ability.

I'll grant the Ring of Evasion to JMD though! ;p On the other hand, that ring is relatively cheap.

Things I have noticed - you keep harping on the throwing weapon. Typing "throwing his two handed weapon at you" in LARGE CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make it more powerful or distinct. At the end of the day, he's still doing less then a fighter with a bow. A fighter that hasn't even specialized in his bow.

And that's just it. At the end of the day, the fighter still out-damages the soulknife. You haven't even disputed that. You just have this really insane fixation on "Oh my god he has a throwing weapon"


jeremy.smith wrote:

Cross-posted from the DSP forums:

So doing some numbers on wealth per level... I can see why this comes up as a problem.

At 3rd level, the mind blade is 67% of the character's expected wealth per level - essentially giving him a 40% boost in his "wealth" score. At 19th level, this drops down to around 25% of the character's expected wealth, but in the middle-tier, it can get as high as roughly 75% of the expected wealth. If the soulknife uses dual blades and takes the blade skill to bump his enhancement up, this can equate to 400k worth of wealth at 20th level.

Using the monk as a comparison, well, it's really not even close. The armor of the monk essentially equates to a +5 chainmail suit at 20th level, which is worth around 25k, along with an adamantine pseudo-lawful magic weapon, which I would liberally say is worth around an additional 25k.

However, the soulknife gets very limited defensive / utility abilities, while the monk and other classes tend to get a broader range of skills.

I'm still working through how this class may or may not change, so don't take this to mean massive nerfs incoming, but critical eye for sure. :)

Light armour, but an emphasis on more defensive blade skills?

A slower progression on the mind blade enhancements?

Dreamscarred Press

Dabbler wrote:

Light armour, but an emphasis on more defensive blade skills?

A slower progression on the mind blade enhancements?

Blade skills with a defensive component are a possibility - mind armor will remain left out for a supplemental book and a variant archetype. Slowed progression with blade skills that can improve that are another possibility.

The biggest hurdle to all of this is crunching the numbers, because it's just a massive amount of time.

If anyone gets a wild hair and wants to crunch some damage-dealing numbers for TWF-ranger at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, and 20 (showing their work, feats, buffs used, etc), along with a 2hd-weapon fighter at the same levels, that would be a massive help. :)

I still have all the ranger / fighter numbers I've already crunched, but I'm sure there are others out there who can come up with some even nastier combinations than I've been using.

Sczarni

Checking up the DPR Olympics in this forums might not be a bad idea.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/theDPROlympicsOrImNotTheMechanicHereIronsidesIMostlyJustHurtPeop le&page=1&source=search#0

Dreamscarred Press

Frerezar wrote:
Checking up the DPR Olympics in this forums might not be a bad idea.

Sweet, thanks!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

jeremy.smith wrote:
LMPjr007 wrote:

Just wondering, but when will this be available for

other 3PP to support and make products with OGL & PRD materials?

Louis - we're tentatively looking at an October release. Right now, the soulknife is the biggest mechanical hurdle, so that's where most of my design time has been focused, but the other 95% of the book has mostly been tweaking little loopholes, clarifying inconsistencies, and the like.

Artwork, layout, and design are already underway and moving at a great pace.

Aelryinth - because there has been a lot of back and forth and I don't want to look over inaccurate or old data, would you be willing to email me a concise overview, with details, of your feedback on the soulknife? I realize we may not agree on every point, but you are definitely putting a lot of thought into it and I don't want to miss some very valid items that need to be addressed in all the posts.

jeremy.smith@dreamscarredpress.com or dreamscarredpress@gmail.com

Thanks :)

I will do so.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

ProfessorCirno wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
JMD031 wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:

Name one class ability.

Do it.

You're still caught up on gold, so I feel the need to call you out on this.

Name a single class ability the soulknife can buy.

Ring of Evasion.

*ducks*

Any magic item that replicates a feat or spell ability is technically purchasing a 'class ability', too. UMD is called 'caster in the bag' for a reason...you can BUY all the class ability (spellcasting) you want. It's not really cost effective compared to having spellcasting, but you can DO it.

The fact other classes can get +10 weapons is thus irrelevant. As an example, make up a 20th level fighter, full gear. Then strip out his weapons, and give that gold to the Mindblade, and keep everything else the same. I can guarantee you that AC and ranged attacks won't be anything resembling a problem.

The mindblade doesn't need Pounce. He can stand there and full attack you by THROWING HIS TWO HANDED WEAPON AT YOU. he doesn't need to charge. If he wants to, he can add Distance and Seeking to his throwing configuration, and have a 40' range increment...more then enough for a typical battlefield. LONG range attack, if he must, he can pick up a crossbow, or leave it to the raycasting wizard.

==Aelryinth

Things this post does not contain: a class ability.

I'll grant the Ring of Evasion to JMD though! ;p On the other hand, that ring is relatively cheap.

Things I have noticed - you keep harping on the throwing weapon. Typing "throwing his two handed weapon at you" in LARGE CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make it more powerful or distinct. At the end of the day, he's still doing less then a fighter with a bow. A fighter that hasn't even specialized in his bow.

And that's just it. At the end of the day, the fighter still out-damages the soulknife. You haven't even disputed that. You just have this really insane fixation on "Oh my god he has a throwing weapon"

Spellcasting isn't a class ability? I'll have to remember that in the future. Primary spellcasters just lost half their class abilities!

==Aelryinth


ProfessorCirno wrote:


I'll grant the Ring of Evasion to JMD though! ;p On the other hand, that ring is relatively cheap.

I only remembered that because I have a tendency to give it to a lot of NPCs to make blasty Wizards use different spells.


Aelryinth wrote:
Spellcasting isn't a class ability? I'll have to remember that in the future. Primary spellcasters just lost half their class abilities!

When you can metamagic, level up, increase, improve, raise the DCs, relearn, and recharge wands.

Then I'll accept wands as an equal to spellcasting.

But right now zero of those things are possible.

A rogue with a wand can indeed take the role of party healer. He cannot take the role of party wizard.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

jeremy.smith wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Light armour, but an emphasis on more defensive blade skills?

A slower progression on the mind blade enhancements?

Blade skills with a defensive component are a possibility - mind armor will remain left out for a supplemental book and a variant archetype. Slowed progression with blade skills that can improve that are another possibility.

The biggest hurdle to all of this is crunching the numbers, because it's just a massive amount of time.

If anyone gets a wild hair and wants to crunch some damage-dealing numbers for TWF-ranger at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, and 20 (showing their work, feats, buffs used, etc), along with a 2hd-weapon fighter at the same levels, that would be a massive help. :)

I still have all the ranger / fighter numbers I've already crunched, but I'm sure there are others out there who can come up with some even nastier combinations than I've been using.

I'll note that at level 11, with +25k, he doesn't have an AC problem...he'll be 2 to 3 points ahead on his armor, have a better natural AC amulet, ring of protection, etc. If you're worried about saves, give him save bonuses reflecting the strength of his mindblade - maybe fort bonuses in TH form, Reflex in light/dagger form, and Will in normal/shield form.

Also, if he goes sword and board, his shield still gets defender bonuses if he assigns them. At level 11, that's a 'free' +5 of Touch AC when he brings out his shield (or potentially his off-hand weapon).

As for Ranged attacks/thrown...if he takes Dagger Format, has Far shot, and assigns distance to his dagger-blades, that's an 80' range increment...way more then needed for most battlefields, and he can throw with two hands and never run out of +10 customized ammo!

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:


I'll note that at level 11, with +25k, he doesn't have an AC problem...he'll be 2 to 3 points ahead on his armor, have a better natural AC amulet, ring of protection, etc. If you're worried about saves, give him save bonuses reflecting the strength of his mindblade - maybe fort bonuses in TH form, Reflex in light/dagger form, and Will in normal/shield form.

Also, if he goes sword and board, his shield still gets defender bonuses if he assigns them. At level 11, that's a 'free' +5 of Touch AC when he brings out his shield (or potentially his off-hand weapon).

This is assuming that the Soul knife is built at a higher level, right? I don't think that in a normal game, a SK will have 25K in his pocket by level 11 because he saved a bunch of money on his weapon. Maybe if he went and saved up each bit of excess gold he earns on his way he could have it, but you may be forgetting that in an actual game, many different factors can come up. Maybe the party needs to pool thier money together to help rebuild a kingdom? What if there's been a few deaths in the party? That's 5k a rez right there. Maybe the SK ends up giving some money to his friend so she can by a metamagic rod? Maybe some items get stolen while the group sleeps, and they have to replace them. There's a multitude of things that could drain money from the group/SK.

I'm not saying these situations are all going to happen in a row or at once, but I feel it's unrealistic to assume that everything is going to go exactly the way you expect it to when you start planning out the character. If you're rolling a higher level character, then you have the extra gold. Chances are, though, that players are going to start lower level, and this whole gold issue becomes moot, because again, things almost never go the way the party plans.

And one final point I'd like to make: Is it not the GM's job to make sure that sort of thing doesn't get out of hand? If someone in the party has this sort of advantage over the other party memebers, shouldn't the GM take that into account and maybe compensate the party in some way, or plan encounters around the idea that the SK has better items? This same logic also applies to the abilities the SK gets.

I just don't see why these are such big issues. The original Soul Knife presented in this thread was too much, but this one? This one's pretty well balanced against the other classes, it seems. He's not out DPSing fighters, is less range capable than a ranger (or archer fighter), and has no battle field control spells like a wizard (or any sort of spells, really). People won't stop playing other classes because of this class. Not everyone is the stereotypical power gamer, who's only way of having fun is by doing the most awesome thing all the time. Just about most people I know or hear about are equal parts min-maxer and roleplayer, and usually style trumps whatever wombo-combo they find online. :)

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:

Level 20 abilities SHOULD be awesome. Looking at CR20 beasties from the bestiary ...

Balor - Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 27
Pit Fiend - Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 26
Ancient Gold Dragon - Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 24

Hmm. Do I see a pattern here? Against any of these, it's not a 'one-hit' take down, and in every case you have a really annoyed powerful monster right in front of you that can nail you with a full attack before you get to hit it again, with it's combat ability totally unimpaired.

Of course even at low level, this abilty means no animals...at all. A Roc will die to one it of these baby at level 5 (assuming the soulblade gets a fly somehow...really that shouldn't be a problem with the extra gold and all). It basically nullifys a large group of monsters at all levels. This is a bad thing.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Level 20 abilities SHOULD be awesome. Looking at CR20 beasties from the bestiary ...

Balor - Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 27
Pit Fiend - Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 26
Ancient Gold Dragon - Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 24

Hmm. Do I see a pattern here? Against any of these, it's not a 'one-hit' take down, and in every case you have a really annoyed powerful monster right in front of you that can nail you with a full attack before you get to hit it again, with it's combat ability totally unimpaired.

Of course even at low level, this abilty means no animals...at all. A Roc will die to one it of these baby at level 5 (assuming the soulblade gets a fly somehow...really that shouldn't be a problem with the extra gold and all). It basically nullifys a large group of monsters at all levels. This is a bad thing.

Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Dreamscarred Press

OK, so I used the DPR Olympics as a base-line to figure out the soulknive's damage per round (using the rules in that thread).

And I came up with the following:

When able to full attack and use psychic strike on both attacks:
Damage Per Round: 62.58

When able to full attack and use psychic strike on only 1 attack:
Damage Per Round: 56.505

When able to full attack and not using psychic strike:
Damage Per Round: 47.055

When consistently using a move action to recharge psychic strike:
Damage Per Round: 37.94

When charging and using psychic strike:
Damage Per Round: 43.26

When charging and not using psychic strike:
Damage Per Round: 32.46

When only making a single attack without psychic strike:
Damage Per Round: 28.49

This is at level 10.

I used the following build (feel free to correct math, but please show work):

Spoiler:

Human
Elite Array (Str highest, then Con, Dex, Wis, Int, Cha, in that order)
All ability boosts from leveling went to STR, racial stat boost went to STR
Equipment:
+4 STR Belt
+2 DEX Ioun Stone
Cloak of Resistance +3
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Mithril Chainmail +3
Ring of Force Shield
Headband of Inspired Wisdom
Handy Haversack
+3 psychokinetic mind blade (I tried to use no special abilities, per the rules of the DPR thread, but the soulknife cannot exceed +3 enhancement bonus at 10th level)
Ring of Protection +2
2k left over

Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Psionic Weapon, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Greater Psionic Weapon, Improved Critical

Blade Skills: Rending Blades, Powerful Strikes, Furious Charge, Mind Blade Repository, one open for utility, since none directly impacted damage (Improved Enhancement is unavailable until 12th level).

His Saves are: Fort +12, Ref +11, Wis +10
His AC is: 22

What this shows me is that if the soulknife can get off psychic strikes, he is competitive with the fighter in overall damage. When psychic strike has been depleted, unless he has a Blade Skill to recharge it for "free" or as a swift action on a specific condition, it is a better use of action resources to simply full attack, but that he is significantly below the curve in damage compared to the falchion fighter, the ranged-focused ranger, and even some monk builds, if he can't consistently use psychic strike. Falchion Fred, for comparison, could deal ~60 DPR consistently, with only a +3 weapon.

This obviously does not take into account the situation of using ability damage from Knife to the Soul, since that is unavailable until level 12.

Where the soulknife shines, oddly enough, is that his saves are better than the fighter. All of his saves are at least 1 point higher. AC is roughly comparable. HP are equal. The fighter has some additional combat options (Lunge, Step Up), but the Soulknife has 1 blade skill that can roughly equal one of those feats. Both the soulknife and warrior have the same mobility due to Armor Training.

It's actually interesting to note that, since the soulknife is trying to maintain his mobility, I went with Mithril Chainmail +3 (+9 AC), compared to the fighter's Full plate +1, and the fighter comes out ahead in the AC gained - the soulknife has to make up for that with the Ring of Force Shield - and ends up spending 18k vs the fighter's 2.5k.

I still have to do a two-weapon fighting build-up, and specific situations such as knife to the soul, bane enhancement, etc, are not included in this work.

EDIT: DPR will get a slight bump up, because I failed to account for the +2 STR from race when calculating to hit, moving the chance to hit from .7 to .75 when not charging, .8 to .85 when charging, etc.


Gods, I have been waiting for this book for quite a while, and keeping my mouth shut as much of the development has gone on before my eyes (mostly because I am not a good judge of balance). But Ael's arguments have annoyed me to such a degree that I feel I have to speak out.

First off, I will assume that Ael and the others who talk so much about the Gold discrepancy of the Soul Knife are looking at the class from within a vacuum of ONLY itself, not as it would apply to an actual campaign. And on paper, they may have a SLIGHT point. But as a GM for many years, I have NEVER had huge amounts of gold disable my game for ONE simple reason, I DO NOT ALLOW IT. Just because you have all this EXTRA gold, doesn't mean there is anything you can spend it on.

The argument about all the "wonderful toys" that the SK gets to spend money on becomes completely and totally MOOT without a Magic-Mart. If you can't walk down aisle five and grab that ring of uberness, those boots of superior everything, or even a simple Ball Cap that relays the scores of your favorite Goblin Slagball Team, then what you got is a big pile of shiny (and ultimately mostly useless in the adventure) money. True, if your SK likes to live the high life, and spend it on whiskey and whores, then he may even become more popular with NPCs than even the Bard.

Ok, so there is no Magic-Mart, but what about Crafting items. First off, the SK is NOT a crafter, so again, his money does him no good. Second, he then has to FIND a crafter, which a GOOD GM (who is having issues will Mr SK Moneybags) can make scarce and far between. But even after tracking down the ever elusive crafter, it still takes time for the SKs uber-nifty device of doom and invulnerability to be created. Add in any number of production issues (needing to find a scroll for that ONE special spell required that the crafter doesn't know, a dwarven labor union dispute holding up raw materials, getting eaten by a dragon, etc), there is then the problem of delivery. Unless the SK decided to hang around the crafter's abode, which will sollve the Gold discrepancy another way, as the rest of the party keeps adventuring (you know, find monsters, kill them, and take there stuff) while he turns his mindblade into funny shapes to cast shadow puppets on the wall in boredom.

Long and short of it is that the Gold argument is fine theoretically, but in practice, just does not hold water. Wealth does NOT equal equivalent magic items, no more so than Bill Gates being able to own a FULLY armed M1 Battle Tank. Can he afford it, sure...but it is not legal for him to do so.

Just so you know, I do NOT run a low magic campaign, and do have potions and scrolls available in most cities, with the equivalent of "magic pawn shops" around to trade in all those +1 weapons and the like (or for that matter, buy +1 weapons and other lower level magic items), but, like a pawn shop, rarely will there be any kind of real find or expensive magic items. AND, like many of you, I thought the first Soul Knife Beta was very broken and hated it to such a degree that it made me actually have second thoughts about buying a Dreamscarred Press product (I own almost all of them).

skippy (who loves to eat power gamers for breakfast, because once you figure out "trick" [and almost ALL munchkin builds are one trick ponies], you break them, you kill them, and you make them roll up a new character...repeat until power gamer has learned or has left your game for something more compatible to him)

Dreamscarred Press

Robert Von Allmen wrote:
AND, like many of you, I thought the first Soul Knife Beta was very broken and hated it to such a degree that it made me actually have second thoughts about buying a Dreamscarred Press product (I own almost all of them).

Robert, the rest of the discussion aside, has the updated Beta of the soulknife helped with regards to your hating the class?


I love the new Soul Knife, as it reminds me of the best of the 3.5 modified soul knives. I cannot wait for this product to hit the shelf.

skippy (whose former player [a gnoll soul knife/blade manifester] would LOVE what was done to the Soul Knife Beta 2)

PS any chance for a Blade Manifester anytime soon?


Well now, Arcane Weapon on the beta of the Magus seems to blow the gold argument out of water more or less. Although the properties list is much smaller. I swear, you guys at Dreamscarred a psychic or something. Each time I start thinking, "well hey now isn't this a bit much on power creep compared to what Paizo is going," Paizo turns around a puts out something close it.

The first was the optional +1 PP for favored class, boom basically same concept in the APG. Second, although you didn't technically write Soul Knife's blades but when it comes to oddities and coincidence I'm willing to give wiggle room, SK and Magus match up over class feature enhancements to weapons at no cost.

Although thinking, perhaps some kind of focus object that takes up no space and can be replaced eventually if lost or destroyed could help with some of the "prison breakout, items snatched" story lines.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

Or do you, because the strength of the Knife to the Soul at level 12 isn't that great and most foes at that level have adequate mental scores to absorb the damage, so in fact you can nullify a few encounters at that level, the same way any character can by playing to their strengths and the foe's weakness.

Grand Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

Or do you, because the strength of the Knife to the Soul at level 12 isn't that great and most foes at that level have adequate mental scores to absorb the damage, so in fact you can nullify a few encounters at that level, the same way any character can by playing to their strengths and the foe's weakness.

Can knife to the soul do 2 or more inst damage at level 12? Yes it can. No more animal encounters for you after level 12 as it'll be over in one round. That's not a few...that is an entire type of critters that is no longer a viable threat. This was a horrible idea in 3.x, it was a horrible idea when they gave it to wizards in 3.x as ray of stupidity and it's STILL a horrible idea.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

Or do you, because the strength of the Knife to the Soul at level 12 isn't that great and most foes at that level have adequate mental scores to absorb the damage, so in fact you can nullify a few encounters at that level, the same way any character can by playing to their strengths and the foe's weakness.
Can knife to the soul do 2 or more inst damage at level 12? Yes it can. No more animal encounters for you after level 12 as it'll be over in one round. That's not a few...that is an entire type of critters that is no longer a viable threat. This was a horrible idea in 3.x, it was a horrible idea when they gave it to wizards in 3.x as ray of stupidity and it's STILL a horrible idea.

....

are...
are you still fighting animals at level 12? and they're challenging? like what? if there's a single CR 12 animal?

I fail to see how this is any different than a take-out save or die type spell atthe same level, other than putting the caster (or SK) in melee threat should his gambit fail.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Can knife to the soul do 2 or more inst damage at level 12? Yes it can. No more animal encounters for you after level 12 as it'll be over in one round. That's not a few...that is an entire type of critters that is no longer a viable threat. This was a horrible idea in 3.x, it was a horrible idea when they gave it to wizards in 3.x as ray of stupidity and it's STILL a horrible idea.

And the animals you are fighting at level 12 and NOT able to one-hit kill from any combat character are ...? I mean apart from Purple Worms, I can't see anything even remotely challenging.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

What's the difference between a 1 int/wis/cha score and zero? They're more or less worthless at that point anyway, right?

Grand Lodge

Ghenn wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

What's the difference between a 1 int/wis/cha score and zero? They're more or less worthless at that point anyway, right?

Umm other then being helpless....yeah you know the small stuff. Geh. Animals have 2 int, they are still equally dangerous at 1 int. At 0 int they do nothing.

Dreamscarred Press

I've posted a fair bit of information over at the Dreamscarred Press forums about the soulknife, but rather than spamming over here, I'll give a quick recap:

First, the options that allow the soulknife to have a multitude of weapon configurations will likely be reduced / eliminated.

I'm working on a blade skill or blade skills that allow the soulknife to change portions of his mind blade's configuration on the fly, most likely by expending psychic strike without dealing any extra damage.

The Mind Shield blade skill will be clarified that it simply provides a +2 shield bonus to armor class, to avoid any confusion about if it can or cannot be enchanted, how it affects the mind blade's enhancement value, etc.

Several new blade skills are in the works, including one that increases the critical multiplier, one that stops an opponent in their tracks for a short duration (different than Stand Still, tho), and a few others.

Toppling Strike is getting modified to not be quite so powerful, while still being viable. A Greater version of the Toppling Strike blade skill is also being developed.

The two-handed form of the mind blade cannot be thrown. A blade skill to allow this is being considered, but is not a foregone conclusion.

The throwing ability of the soulknife is being reverted to closer to 3.5 - single throw at low level, blade skill to improve that to match multiple throw of 3.5.

The rules about the weapon enhancement and special abilities are being clarified, especially with regards to multiple weapons, that you must always have a +1 enhancement bonus if you want to apply weapon special abilities.

Knife to the Soul is most likely going to go to once per round, at the very least. A cap on the damage that can be converted per psychic strike is also likely.

The ability to store multiple psychic strikes is being looked at and may be modified or removed.

The ability to select the Bane weapon special ability is being removed.

The Greater Furious Charge is being replaced with Improved Furious Charge, which will require expending psychic strike in order to make a single extra attack on the charge, but at a penalty.

:)


Cold Napalm wrote:
Ghenn wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

What's the difference between a 1 int/wis/cha score and zero? They're more or less worthless at that point anyway, right?
Umm other then being helpless....yeah you know the small stuff. Geh. Animals have 2 int, they are still equally dangerous at 1 int. At 0 int they do nothing.

What kind of animals is a level 12 Soul Knife going to run into that he's not already going to take out anyway? Unless I've missed something on the PFSRD site, I can't find an animal that has a threatening challenge rating for the soul knife to sweat. The highest I saw was CR10.

So, outside of animals, what else is really a threat at an int/wis/cha score of around 1? If nothing's a threat, then what's the harm in just having an ability that kills them rather then leave them in a coma or whatever?

Grand Lodge

Ghenn wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Ghenn wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

What's the difference between a 1 int/wis/cha score and zero? They're more or less worthless at that point anyway, right?
Umm other then being helpless....yeah you know the small stuff. Geh. Animals have 2 int, they are still equally dangerous at 1 int. At 0 int they do nothing.

What kind of animals is a level 12 Soul Knife going to run into that he's not already going to take out anyway? Unless I've missed something on the PFSRD site, I can't find an animal that has a threatening challenge rating for the soul knife to sweat. The highest I saw was CR10.

So, outside of animals, what else is really a threat at an int/wis/cha score of around 1? If nothing's a threat, then what's the harm in just having an ability that kills them rather then leave them in a coma or whatever?

Purple worms...also it does pretty much one shot golems as well...all golems have 1 cha after all...which I think applies to constructs in general. Linnworms are also knife to the soul bait with their 5 int.

Oh and finally the tarrasque has 3 whole int...course I am fairly certain that one is immune to ability damage...

Even then animals can have HD added to them to be viable threats even at highers levels. Advanced rocs are pretty scary things when you don't have a I win button. I use advanced animals even at level 20 games.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Ghenn wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Ghenn wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
Dabbler wrote:


Jolly good job you can't take Knife to the Soul until level 12 then! As has been said, there are 2nd level wizard spells that trump this because they work on touch at range ... and yet they are not broken.

Okay so I missed that bit...so at level 12, you nullify a large portion of encounters...great.

Touch of idiocy can't drop a score below 1...so no, not the same AT ALL.

What's the difference between a 1 int/wis/cha score and zero? They're more or less worthless at that point anyway, right?
Umm other then being helpless....yeah you know the small stuff. Geh. Animals have 2 int, they are still equally dangerous at 1 int. At 0 int they do nothing.

What kind of animals is a level 12 Soul Knife going to run into that he's not already going to take out anyway? Unless I've missed something on the PFSRD site, I can't find an animal that has a threatening challenge rating for the soul knife to sweat. The highest I saw was CR10.

So, outside of animals, what else is really a threat at an int/wis/cha score of around 1? If nothing's a threat, then what's the harm in just having an ability that kills them rather then leave them in a coma or whatever?

Purple worms...also it does pretty much one shot golems as well...all golems have 1 cha after all...which I think applies to constructs in general. Linnworms are also knife to the soul bait with their 5 int.

Oh and finally the tarrasque has 3 whole int...course I am fairly certain that one is immune to ability damage...

Even then animals can have HD added to them to be viable threats even at highers levels. Advanced rocs are pretty scary things when you don't have a I win button. I use advanced animals even at level 20 games.

Point. I didn't consider the golem stuff (and purple worm is a magical beast, which is why I missed it in my response.) I'll concede on the linnorms and higher CR animals (Advanced versions and whatnot) as well. Maybe Knife to the Soul should follow the same idea as touch of idiocy, and stop before it kills the opponent.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

That was my thought on a good limitation for Knife to the Soul. Limit it so that it cannot drop a target's ability score below 1, but don't necessarily limit it to once per round.

Grand Lodge

Yes penalty, can't reduce below 1 and I have zero issue with the ability. Penalty also would make it a bit stronger in some cases as thing immune to ability damage would still take a penalty.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Purple worms...also it does pretty much one shot golems as well...all golems have 1 cha after all...which I think applies to constructs in general.

Golems, and in fact all constructs, are immune to mind-affecting effects, and thus have no soul to knife.


Cold Napalm wrote:

Purple worms...also it does pretty much one shot golems as well...all golems have 1 cha after all...which I think applies to constructs in general. Linnworms are also knife to the soul bait with their 5 int.

Golems are mindless, they are immune to psychic strike and hence also immune to knife to the soul. You have a point about linnorms, though. There is a qaundry:

If you change the ability to not drop the score below 1, then it gets pretty useless against anything but casters. If you allow it to drop scores to zero, then it one-shots some creatures there and then. So how about a compromise:

Quote:
Knife to the soul cannot drop a target's mental scores below 1; if it would do so, the mental score remains at 1 and the creature is stunned for as many rounds as it would have lost attribute points.


Casters can trivialize so many different kind of encounters, many more than the SK. As it's not true for the majority don't worry about it ... leave that up to the DM.

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